Transcripts For BBCNEWS Victoria Derbyshire 20240714

For the next hour, with our audience here, well ask can labour move on from this, and if so how . Im ella, im jewish im ella, imjewish and i left the labour party in the summer of 2017 over allegations of anti semitism. Im salma karmi ayyoub, a british palestinian member of the labour party, and im concerned that some of the criticism being levelled against the party as unfair. Im ghulam asghar, a labour member for the last 14 years. Im pleased with the last 14 years. Im pleased with the new labour position on brexit. Hello. Welcome to the programme. Were live until 11 this morning. Yes, we are also going to talk about labours new brexit position to go for a second referendum and campaign for remain thats ahead of a general election. That position may change when it comes to the partys manifesto. But wherever you are this morning, do join the conversation. Thanks for your messages. Stuart says on twitter corbyn has been a disaster for labour when they should be cleaning up in the polls with how the government currently is. It seems the corbyn supporters are Walking Around with blinkers on. Blaming everyone else is not going to work, voters are not voting for labour because of corbyn. Labour has some good policies, but they will be ignored because of the leader. Tony says on facebook shocking stitch up job by bbc panorama to try and undermine the democratically elected corbyn, who everyone knows has campaigned against and katty says on twitter, i have voted labour my whole life until three years ago, when corbyn became leader. He is a disgrace. We will talk more with our audience of labour mps talk more with our audience of labourmps and labour talk more with our audience of labour mps and labour supporters and labour mps and labour supporters and labour pundits. First, Carrie Gracie has the news. Three iranian boats have tried to intercept a British Oil Tanker near the strait of hormuz. The government says the iranian vessels asked the oil tanker to stop in iranian waters in the strait, but withdrew after a warning from a royal navy frigate. The incident comes at a time of heightened tensions between the us, britain and iran. People who consume a lot of sugary drinks could have a higher risk of developing cancer, according to a new study. The research, which looked at 100,000 people in france, found those who drank two extra cans of fruit juice or fizzy pop a week saw an 18 increased risk of cancer. However, the study did not establish a direct link, and experts say more information is needed. The energy Firm Cuadrilla has announced it will restart fracking for shale gas at a site in lancashire this week. Cuadrillas operations were suspended last year after a series of minor earthquakes were detected. The Energy Company uses hydraulic fracturing, which involves injecting water and chemicals at High Pressure to break up rock and extract gas. Six tourists have been killed and at least 30 other people injured in a Violent Storm that swept across a region of northern greece. Gale force winds, heavy rain and hailstorms lashed halkidiki. A czech couple died when their caravan was blown away, and two romanians and two russians were also killed. A state of emergency has been declared with more than 100 rescue workers deployed. A man has been arrested for climbing over a fence onto the forecourt of Buckingham Palace while the queen was in residence. The 22 year old is being held on suspicion of trespass. Its understood he scaled the barrier to the side of the building in the early hours of yesterday. Scotland yard say the incident is not being treated as terror related. Now back to victoria. What now for the labour party . Members from all wings of the party have reacted with fury to last nights panorama in which a number of labour Party Officials who said thatJeremy Corbyns closest allies interfered in the independent process designed to deal with accusations of anti semitism within the party. They say the Leaders Office offered instruction on how cases should be resolved and officials brought in by labours general secretary, Jennie Formby, downgraded some punishments. Mr corbyn has always insisted his team has never interfered in disciplinary decisions. Labour says the forner staff are disaffected. And that the bbc have engaged in malicious representations. For the next hour, were going to talk about state of the labour party has the anti semitism crisis fatally damaged the party . Is their policy on brexit which changed this week now clear enough . Is it popular with supporters . And if there is a snap general election, what do they need to do to win power . With us are 16 people who are Labour Party Members, or have been until recently evenly split between people whove told us they broadly support mr corbyns leadership and those who dont. Were also joined by two labour mps who have both criticised the leadership Stephen Kinnock and stephen doughty. They disagree about brexit, though, and we will get into that. We asked the party to provide us with an mp supportive of the leadership. No one was available, unfortunately. So we are very grateful that two commentators who support Jeremy Corbyn are here ash sarkar and owen jones. Right, first lets talk about anti semitism does last nights programme reflect the labour party you know . What is your reaction to last nights programme . What is your reaction to last nights programme . |j what is your reaction to last nights programme . I thought last nights programme . I thought last nights programme . I thought last nights programme was a bunch of wimps, quite honestly. I have been attacked in the streets for carrying attacked in the streets for carrying a palestinian bag, and i didnt have a palestinian bag, and i didnt have a nervous breakdown. Why did they . Did anyone else think those former party staff were wimps for speaking out in that way . I have been a membersince out in that way . I have been a member since 2015. I was sympathetic to fellow jewish members member since 2015. I was sympathetic to fellowjewish members who had the courage to talk about their experience of anti semitism. I dont for a second dispute their integrity ortheir for a second dispute their integrity or their sincerity, but i did have concerns or their sincerity, but i did have concerns with the general objectivity of the reporting last night. I felt as though there was a problem in terms of the way they characterised the scale of the problem of anti semitism. For example, labour records show that since 2015, the number of cases of anti semitism that have gone through anti semitism that have gone through a Disciplinary Procedure amount to about 0. 6 of the membership. And that wasnt reflected in the show. So to me, it is a serious problem and there are probably more people who are in denial about anti semitism, but there is no evidence that it is in any way endemic or pervasive. 0k. Where the people who spoke out wimps . endemic or pervasive. 0k. Where the people who spoke out wimps . I have beena labour people who spoke out wimps . I have been a labour member for almost ten years. I been a labour member for almost ten years. Lam been a labour member for almost ten years. I am a labour councillor in newham in east london. We could spend all day criticising the criticism of the document tree last night when in fact, the revelations that came out of that. Night when in fact, the revelations that came out of that. I want to make it clear that you were on the Panorama Programme last night. How do you respond to what sian said about you being a wimp . |j do you respond to what sian said about you being a wimp . I think that thatis about you being a wimp . I think that that is an outrageous thing to say. People have been incredibly brave. Whistle blowers people have been incredibly brave. Whistle blowers have been people have been incredibly brave. Whistle blowers have been risking themselves by going on record and talking about the horrendous things that took place at hq and with the interference from lotto, and its disgusting to refer to them as anything other than heroes of our movement, speaking about something we should be dealing with far better. The reaction we should have to last nights panorama is for the leadership to do more on this issue orto leadership to do more on this issue or to step down. Lotto, by the way, is leader of the 0ppositions office. In response to salmas statement, what struck me about the documentary, and it characterises the whole discussion about anti semitism, is that there is not much in the way of evidence. The evidence doesnt seem to be important. What is more important is making an allegation of anti semitism which then becomes the truth. I sympathise with people who feel upset or feel they are in a hostile environment, but apparently just saying that becomes sufficient basis for claiming that the parties and situationally anti semitic. Basis for claiming that the parties and situationally antisemitic. What you mean by just and situationally antisemitic. What you mean byjust saying it . |j and situationally antisemitic. What you mean byjust saying it . I am saying that the discussion is characterised by the fact that if you allege the anti semitism has happened, without providing evidence of it, that becomes enough for us to decide that it is true. And as a result, what is happening is that may be certain peoples experiences, terrible as they are, are being co nflated terrible as they are, are being conflated or expanded into an assertion that the whole of the party is anti semitic or institutionally so, when there is no evidence for that. I totally disagree. As someone who has suffered extensive anti semitism, i have provided the party with endless amounts of evidence of what i have suffered online and in person. All of the people who spoke last night, just included, have done the same. I have seen plenty of evidence published online, published in newspapers and reputable publications. I am confused about where the idea of no evidence comes from. If you are in a minority, how else are you meant to evidence it other than to say what has happened or provide a tweet or have witnesses . That is what we have done. It is like shouting into a void. As a minority, when you are suffering oppression, who else is going to stand up for you . We need better allies, but if our allies arent listening, i dont understand what other evidence. We cant give empirical evidence. Lets bring in some of our panellists. Stephen doughty, labour mp, what do you make of some of these comments . doughty, labour mp, what do you make of some of these comments . I was shocked by what i saw last night and iam shocked by what i saw last night and i am appalled by a couple of things i have heard already this morning. Like what . Calling the people who spoke out wimps, they werent. They we re spoke out wimps, they werent. They were brave people to speak out, both the Staff Members and the Party Members. Quite frankly, whatever you make of the programme or its structure, you have to start with the testimony of those who spoke out. Individually, if you took those comments on their own, they are absolutely damning. When somebody spoke out and said they wanted to ta ke spoke out and said they wanted to take their own life by throwing themselves off the balcony of the general secretarys office, to have that lady call that person a wimp is deeply offensive. Do you want to respond . Yes. It seems to me that a lot of the comments that are made by jewish people who are accusing us of anti semitism. Jewish people who are accusing us of antisemitism. No, i jewish people who are accusing us of antisemitism. No, iwant you jewish people who are accusing us of antisemitism. No, i want you to respond to point directly. A man wa nted respond to point directly. A man wanted to take his own life and you called him a wimp. Is that acceptable . Several people said they had nervous breakdowns. You clearly didnt listen to the programme was that that one thing alone should shame the labour party, because it speaks of a culture and issues within the management of the labour party that we should all take seriously and act on. And that goes before we get into any of the other details. Ash, do you take these claims seriously . I do. We need to consider the panorama documentary on the basis of the strength of its evidence. While there were aspects of the testimony that need to be taken seriously of the testimony that need to be ta ken seriously and of the testimony that need to be taken seriously and actioned, overall, theres something that make the case presented that there is something sinister going on in jeremys office was a very weak case. There were truncated e mails which change the whole meaning of them. But the point being made was interference from those in the lead up interference from those in the lead up as my office. One incident was Jennie Formby being presented as interfering in the case. She is the general secretary in labour, hire powerful. Yes, and the implication was that she interfered to slow them down or to diminish their cases. The intervention she was making was actually to speed up some of these cases. It is still interference. My point is that there was a problem amongst a small but vocal membership of anti semitism. To address that, it means that firstly, people only left need to realise that you are not defending the corbyn project by minimising the scale of the problem. They also need to get their heads around the fact that you can walk and chew gum at the same time. You can tackle anti semitism where it exists. You can absolutely stand in solidarity with jewish people, whether or not they are members of the labour party, and at the same time call out botched hatchetjobs like the panorama documentary. Stephen king it . I have campaigned for the policy knew because since the 19905. I have always felt that the 19905. I have always felt that the actions of the Israeli Government are completely unacceptable, but i have never felt that i need to criticise the Israeli Government in any way that tipped over into any sort of anti semitic comments. It is possible to do both. Perfectly possible. Secondly, 5unlight perfectly possible. Secondly, sunlight is the best disinfectant. We are being investigated by the equalities and human rights commi55ion, equalities and Human Rights Commission, which to me is a deep cau5e commission, which to me is a deep cause for shame. The only Political Party ever to have been investigated by the hrc is the British National party, an overtly racist party. So thatis party, an overtly racist party. So that is disgraceful. But we have givena that is disgraceful. But we have given a submission to the equalities and Human Rights Commission which has not been shared with the National Executive committee, who is the collective body responsible as the collective body responsible as the trustees of the party. Lets publish the ehrcs submission. Why is that being brushed under the carpet . The leadership has to recognise that as long as you brush things under the carpet, you leave a vacuum. Things under the carpet, you leave a vacuum. And then the worst possible assumptions will be protected. Unfortunately, we saw last night that there is plenty of evidence for why those assumptions are being projected, because there is some disgraceful stuff happening in the party. Do you agree . Well, the existence of anti semitism within any form of anti semitism is a disgrace. What is the point of labour if it is not founded, as it was, to combat all forms of injustice, oppression and bigotry . It was genuinely disgraceful to hear people described as wimps by that member of the audience. I was moved by the testimony of those jewish members who spoke. You have to remember thatjewish members who spoke. You have to remember that jewish people members who spoke. You have to remember thatjewish people have suffered 2000 years of persecution, culminating in the attempt to exterminate the entirejewish population of europe within living memory. If you talk to anyjewish person, there is always that sense that things could turn at any moment, and i would suddenly have to flee, as my ancestors have had to do. So that lived experience is critical. What i thought was a travesty and frustrating somebody who is relentlessly saying that labour needs to do more, and i think they need an independent process for they need an independent process for the disciplinary element, but that documentary went for those who are in denial about the existence of anti semitism. They will look at this botched hatchetjob, as assets, and say this is all a conspiracy and politically motivated as ash sarkarsaid. It politically motivated as ash sarkar said. It should have been a balanced broadcast with a range of voices. It should not have edited e mails. Why edit an e mail to make it look just like the e mails. Why edit an e mail to make it lookjust like the opposite . Dont listen to me on this. People will say, you would say that, you area bit will say, you would say that, you are a bit lefty, and the rest of it. But it was about interference. The e mail ended with, we need to review this. That email was presented as something which made the opposite case of what it was saying. The point about interference is important, because what happened when the last general secretary resigned, there was an interregnum where there was no general secretary in place. During that time, members of those labour staff e mailed the labour leadership asking for assistance. They then complained about interference from the labour leadership, which was what they themselves had requested during that period. The phrase we need to review this, you know that is interference. But those labour staff requested assistance. |j interference. But those labour staff requested assistance. I understand that. This is what it is important to have an independent process. There have been improvements. They have increased the disciplinary cases, but it is clear to me that there is in the confidence among jewish Members Party in the system andi jewish Members Party in the system and i dont think there is any solution to this, however much they have increased the disciplinary stuff and increase the rate of the disciplinary cases, than to have a separate independent process. We will talk more about solutions and whether an independent process is the way to go. I want to hear from morejewish the way to go. I want to hear from more jewish members of the way to go. I want to hear from morejewish members of labour, and non jewish member s. Ella, go on. If you wanted it to be balanced, why didnt anyone from the labour leadership go on the programme . They we re leadership go on the programme . They were asked to speak and they all rejected a position on it. That would have been a good method to do so. Would have been a good method to do so. They did, they had a shadow cabinet member, a local lad from my patch, who was on the programme. Yes, he was there. We would have liked someone from the front bench todayit liked someone from the front bench today it was supportive ofJeremy Corbyn, but they were not available. Lets move around, do introduce yourself and respond to the conversation. I am 18 and from leicester and i have been a labour member since i was 14, for the last four years. Naturally, after watching the panorama feature, we we re watching the panorama feature, we were all appalled. It further solidifies the action needs to be taken to ensure that the movement we love, the Labour Movement that is dear to love, the Labour Movement that is dearto our love, the Labour Movement that is dear to our hearts, remains a safe space for all of us and represents everyone. However, and i am in no way justifying everyone. However, and i am in no wayjustifying anti semitism, everyone. However, and i am in no way justifying anti semitism, which has no place in our society, but i think it is naive for us to take the actions of certain individuals in the party, who should be held to due process , the party, who should be held to due process, but we cannot blame the whole party and jeremy himself and our movement. Because what we risk in the process is ruining our movement and the integrity of the labour party. We shouldnt be punished as a party for the actions of individuals. They need to be held to account individually. How do you feel you are being punished . To account individually. How do you feelyou are being punished . As a young labour member, ifeel like there was a lot of negativity about there was a lot of negativity about the movement and ifeel like there was a lot of negativity about the movement and i feel like at a time when we have pressing issues like brexit and uncertainty looming, it will cause further divisions in society. Lets bounce around. Introduce yourself. I have been a labour member for four years. Watching panorama last night was difficult. It is easy to attack the messenger, but the message itself was incredibly difficult. Interference from the Leaders Office, 0wen has given context to that and im glad for that, but no Leaders Office should be able to intervene in any disciplinary case. We should have an independent process. It is sad that the equality and Human Rights Commission are going to look into that. It is a disgrace. Josh . It is disingenuous for us to blame this on a failure of procedure when it was made clear that it was a crisis of culture as well. Where does that culture come from, in your view . I think it comes from, in your view . I think it comes from a resurgence of the far fringes of the left that we have not seen into the mainstream. Since when, sinceJeremy Corbyn into the mainstream. Since when, since Jeremy Corbyn became into the mainstream. Since when, sinceJeremy Corbyn became leader or before that . Frankly, since before my time in politics. A lot of the policies that we as a labour Member Support and his on, things like redistribution of wealth, nationalisation of the railways, that doesnt change because we dont support the fringes that are bringing this hatred into the party. The image of the monstrosity on the statue of liberty that someone in hq or in loto said actually, that isnt a criticism ofjewish people, its a fair critic of israel. That was an open and shut case, was it not . There is a deep well of hard left conspiracy theories about the global capitalist system being run by a shady cabal ofjewish financiers. Tom watson, the deputy leader, talked about a permissive culture this morning. That comes from the ha rd this morning. That comes from the hard left. It has existed on the ha rd left hard left. It has existed on the hard left for centuries. It existed on the hard right for centuries. It is one of the oldest conspiracy theories in the world. It is certainly present in our part in a way that i have not seen before. Why . It is notjust examples we have heard of the horrific images that we re heard of the horrific images that were shared, its the physical threats and the use of zio is a derogatory term. I received a message from somebody this morning saying he is a Jeremy Corbyn supporter and says he hopes i stand up supporter and says he hopes i stand up against the pro jewish groups in the party. That is critically clear. I wonder why on earth anybody in the Leaders Office or anybody in the general secretarys office attempting in any way to have a role in that process has to be independent. I am asking you why tom watson talks about a permissive culture. You say it is coming from the hard left. Why is it being allowed to flourish . By the way, some of the former members of staff are themselves accused of sitting in anti semitism cases. Buzzfeed did an article about it. Whilst expelling people for retreating caroline lucas, so they could exert disciplinary interventions when necessary , disciplinary interventions when necessary, but not in cases of anti semitism. The second point about the issue of a culture, obviously, it is indulging in red baiting to suggest that the so called hard left are all anti semitic, when the vast majority are poor anti semitism. That is painfully wrong and inaccurate. There is a minority. Why . This was not a big issue beforeJeremy Corbyn became leader. Can i answer that quickly . By the summer of 2016, the majority of anti semitism cases being investigated pre dotted, becoming leader that make they predated Jeremy Corbyn. I am a socialist. I believe capitalism is a system which is about competing interests of those at the top against the majority. There are conspiracies who believe in shadowy individuals pulling the strings behind the scenes. But why is this an issue in labour now . One of the things that i think needs to happen. No, why . This is part of the answer. 0ne happen. No, why . This is part of the answer. One of the reasons why there is notjust a small minority of local anti semites but a culture of local anti semites but a culture of defensiveness is because labour need to stop being so reactive when it comes to dealing with anti semitism and much more proactive when it comes to it. That is different question. That is why there this mood of defensiveness and occasional denial is on, because theres not enough leadership coming from the top saying, we are going to roll out a Political Education Programme about what anti semitism is, how to identify and how to tackle it. That theme of defensiveness, what you think about the fact that these whistle blowers, some of them were subject to gagging agreements, nondisclosure agreements. John mcdonnell at the weekend said that they effectively employed the what wire are of libel lawyers to write and to remind them of their legal response but is the what one of libel lawyers. Labourcampaign to ban the what one of libel lawyers. Labour campaign to ban nds mac and they are now using them themselves, what you think of that . they are now using them themselves, what you think of that . I believe Chris Williamson when he said anti semitism is not a scourge in society that needs to be addressed. Chris williamson, the derby mp who has been suspended again. And i agree with him when he said anti semitism is a scourge that needs to be addressed. There was a problem with the panorama show last night. Jackie walker was on it and they used a discredited claim against her. They didnt mention that she was a jewish lady. Why are you saying . Chris williamson has been suspended twice from the labour party now. I wrote on behalf of the whole group of figures on the welsh labour executive in wales, members of the party, trade unionists and others, to the general secretary in march. Still havent had a response. Im not going into those personalities specifically, i was asking about ndas. They need to be scrapped. The legal action must stop. You have asked why several times. The answer is that generally corbyn comes from a certain faction of the labour party. When he became leader, our membership increased massively. Certain people who came in on that wave of increased membership hold hard left conspiracy theories which are anti semitic. So theories which are anti semitic. So the answer to your question is, since 2015, the shape and nature of the labour membership of the labour party has changed. The labour membership travelled in the space of a few months. The conspiracy faction, who do exist and believe in shadow individuals pulling strings behind the scenes, which always lends itself to anti semitism and all that disgusting nonsense, is a tiny minority. But because we live in the online world that we do, any idiot behind a computer can vent their disgraceful, ridiculous conspiracy nonsense and it can be Headline News the next day. That doesnt make them representative of people committed to socialjustice. Does anyone think labour using ndas is hypocritical . Absolutely. It is ridiculous. Party subscriptions should be spent on campaigning, not posh lawyers. The party should practise what it preaches. It was a strong statement. It appears these people have personal and political access to ground, this throws into doubt their credibility as sources. These are ndas, you must be disgusted. The legal action must be stopped, simple as that. As a journalist, i have had to deal with ndas when dealing with allegations that micro the party you support has used ndas while simultaneously campaigning to abolish them. Obviously, i support the apparition of ndas. Of course they shouldnt have used them. What they did was Data Protection legislation, where this was used to do with a data breach earlier in the year. That does not mean they should have used those. It wasnt to do with panorama, which is the inference being made here. Ndas need to be abolished and we need to rewrite the legislation on Data Protection as well. I have had to use them as well when reporting on details of Sexual Harassment. Why were you using them . Surely you agree that they should be stopped now. That shouldnt be used against former Staff Members or other members who want to speak out. They should be able to do so without fear of legal action being taken against them. That is why we have to rewrite the legislation on Data Protection. I agree with you on the abolition of ndas, but i have tried to explain that they were to do with the data breach, not to do with the programme. This is the problem with the setup of this conversation. It means we start caricaturing peoples positions. Oh and is not in favour of ndas, neitheram positions. Oh and is not in favour of ndas, neither am i. Positions. Oh and is not in favour of ndas, neitheram i. And whats more, this is a misuse of ndas. It should not happen. But when we have this discussion and we treat it as a factional left versus right issue, we stop hearing what the other person is actually saying. What i would like to encourage for the rest of the programme is that we actually listen to each other and do not shout over each other. We are going to talk about how labour moves on from this and shows it is actually absolute zero tolerance towards anti semitism. It is actually absolute zero tolerance towards antisemitism. We need to start listening to each other instead of talking over each other. We are seeing that at every party meeting, there are voices that are dominant, voices who have one thing to say. The fact is, we need to remember that we are the labour party. We are here to stamp out racism and injustice. If we dont do that, we are failing and we might as well go home. The fact is, if we wa nt to well go home. The fact is, if we want to solve the problems with anti semitism, we must be grown up and address and look at it properly and address and look at it properly and do it quickly so people can have the practice of justice and do it quickly so people can have the practice ofjustice done and dusted as soon as possible. They may be guilty of anti semitism, in which case they dont need to be in the party a minute longer. Whats the solution . I really do think part of the solution is a commitment to truth and accuracy. I think this discussion demonstrates the massive model we are in. Please try and hear what im saying. Is anti semitism in the labour party . Yes. Does it need to be tackled . The labour party . Yes. Does it need to be tackled . Yes. That isnt the same as bringing in every issue to do with factionalism in the party, toxicity, social media, ndas. Just let me finish. There is a specific claim being made which is that the labour party is institutionally anti semitic, is not a safe space forjews. I think we do a disservice to be issue if we accept that without evidence to back it up. I think we should be accurate, look at the cases and address them but stop exaggerating the issue or taking it out of its proper context. That wont help remedy it. Do you think theissue wont help remedy it. Do you think the issue has been exaggerated . dont. Im an independent councillor, i was a Labour Party Memberfor37 councillor, i was a Labour Party Member for 37 years councillor, i was a Labour Party Memberfor37 years and councillor, i was a Labour Party Member for 37 years and i resigned in february this year. I think the key thing missed its responsibility. In any good organisation, there is a responsibility for setting the culture and if you set the culture right at the top, and thats where the accountability is, it will filter down and thats where it needs to be addressed. Tom watson on the radio this morning talks about auto expulsions in the way Alastair Campbell was expelled for saying he voted liberal democrat. Should that happen to those accused of anti semitism . Happen to those accused of antisemitism . No. I am a british palestinian and ive been a Labour Party Member since the 70s off and on. One of the biggest issues we have to also face is the confusion between anti semitism, which we are poor and has to be eliminated, and anti zionism and the politics of the Israeli Government and what does Israeli Government and what does israel represent. The problem is, as a palestinian, i feel that israel represent. The problem is, as a palestinian, ifeel that a lot of this debate and protecting zionist ideology is actually racism against me as an arab palestinian, because people forget that the ideology of zionism is nothing to do with necessarily being jewish although obviously its about creating a jewish home, but the ideology was a colonial settlement, created israel by the ethnic cleansing of palestine. What is the solution . You have to define. Anti semitism is not so easy to look at what these people say and you have to actually have an investigation. I think theres nothing wrong with saying theres nothing wrong with saying there is an investigation because it is quite difficult sometimes. You have to talk to the people and give them a right to reply. Some places are open and shut, the case of Peter Willsman, for example, there is a tape of him suggesting the anti semitism allegations are lies whipped up by an Israeli Embassy agent that infiltrated the labour party. Did you see al jazeera on that . Im moving on to solutions. One solution is to actually listen to jews one solution is to actually listen tojews and one solution is to actually listen to jews and thats not one solution is to actually listen tojews and thats not being done. When a minority says its being oppressed, we need to take them seriously. I would also point you in the definition of anti semitism which is valuable and we should use it. Im glad the party are using it. There are some great areas but i think that definition would do a good job of sorting it out. Firstly, i would have an independent process. Even though theyve increased disciplinary staff drastically and increased the speed, it doesnt have the confidence of jewish increased the speed, it doesnt have the confidence ofjewish members in this audience and elsewhere. I dont think it exclusion is the way forward because someone commits an offe nce forward because someone commits an offence of racism they wouldnt be auto convicted, there would be a process. You could take the labour party to court if you claim it is a full sanitation. What i would say is immediate suspension and a thorough and swift investigation. Me and ashe are amongst those who demanded Peter Willsman was suspended. We repeatedly called for the suspension of these people and we need to expel, the Labour Party Needs to expel, the Labour Party Needs to expel any anti semitism from its ranks andl expel any anti semitism from its ranks and i think an independent syste m ranks and i think an independent system is the only way of guaranteeing confidence which is swift, thorough and takes Decisive Action. Peter willsman is on the party governing body, say hes in a powerful position. Let me lead a labour statement. We completely reject any claim labour party is anti semitic. The labour party is implacably opposed to anti semitism and is determined to root out this social cancer from our movement and society. Labour is taking Decisive Action against anti semitism. I want to read you a list of thingsJeremy Corbyn has said and done with regards to anti semitism. Its not just words where he has condemned it. Obviously there was the chakra party report, he wrote in the guardian and said anti semitism was unacceptable in the labour party and acknowledged there was a real problem, he said labour were being too slow to get through disciplinary processes. Too slow to get through disciplinary processes. Last march he said he was sincerely sorry for the pain caused by pockets of anti semitism within labour. In march he said, i will never be anything but a militant opponent of anti semitism. In december he said, anti semitism is repugnant. The general secretary says she has strengthened and speeded up the partys Disciplinary Procedures with more staff to handle allegations. I welcome all of that. Have they failed . What we saw in the Panorama Programme was compelling evidence of political interference into the investigation of cases. To speed up those cases. On auto expulsion, its ridiculous and can be expelled from the party for supporting the liberal democrats but not when there is evidence of anti semitism. They should be automatically expelled and when there is a retroactive investigation which says they can be reinstated, fine. Weve got to take radical action because faith in the labour party is being destroyed every day. Weve got some breaking news this hour this morning a probe into abuse at westminster has found that there is a significant problem involving Workplace Bullying and harassment by mps towards their staff. Gemma white qc who authored the report said, workplace harassment and bullying by mps towards staff has been tolerated and accepted for too long. It has seriously affected the health and welfare of far too many people. One contributor to the report said as long as getting politicaljobs in parliament are dependent on who you know and who youre related to, Sexual Harassment will be a Necessary Evil for ambitious young people like me who will choose our careers over our comfort every time. Obviously, that is a brief summary ofa obviously, that is a brief summary of a much more detailed report but brief reaction from you. Im sadly not surprised at all. Really . New mps were treating staff like this . Going back to concerns about anti semitism, the most disturbing aspect for me was the culture around staff, around members which for me clearly amounted to bullying. If people are breakdowns and threatening to kill themselves, something is seriously wrong. If we dont take it seriously, frankly, we shame ourselves. I think it goes wider than the labour party. I think it is in many aspects of society, the bbc as well, as im sure you know. All of our institutions need to ta ke know. All of our institutions need to take a long hard look at themselves when it comes to bullying, harassment and discrimination. Right, lets move on now because anti semitism aside, the main issue dividing the party is brexit many ordinary Party Members have been agitating for the party to come out strongly in favour of a second referendum, with a yougov poll last year suggesting 86 of members support another vote. Earlier this week, Jeremy Corbyn announced a shift in position, saying that labour now wants another referendum, and the party would back remain over a tory brexit or a no deal brexit thought he didnt say where the party would stand in the event of a general election. Heres the labour leader explaining their new position to our deputy political editorjohn pienaar. Is labour now a party of remain or leave . Labour is a party which says we will take no deal off the table and the people have a choice in the future as to whether they remain in the European Union or they accept what would be a very, very damaging no deal exit from the eu with the consequences forfood prices, medicine supplies and industry investment. What about at the next election if there is no brexit by then . We are a big democratic organisation, ive just spent some time consulting with all the parts of the labour party and the Labour Movement and we have come to this position. We have a democratic process, we will decide our election position when the election comes. Is it clear to you . Are you pleased with the shift . Im delighted the party is now fully behind a conservative referendum and supporting remain. Ithink conservative referendum and supporting remain. I think we conservative referendum and supporting remain. Ithink we need to go back to the public and remind them of the things borisjohnson said leading the leave campaign and expose his lies. Brexit can never be delivered in the way it was presented in 2016 and the labour party has a duty to go back to the people and remind them and present a clear, progressive and reforming agenda for the eu. Do you understand the positioning regarding a general election, that that position cant be decided yet because there is a democratic process to go through and when it comes to writing a manifesto thatis when it comes to writing a manifesto that is when we will announce our position, as if it could be different. The labour party is a democratic institution. Is it all right not to tell us how they will campaign . I would be strongly supported the party going into an election with the idea of a confirm that it referendum. Which way would you want labour to campaign . Remain. The new statement is restating co nfe re nce the new statement is restating conference policy from last year. Weve got to avoid no deal or giving them a veto to stop us ever leaving. Thats why there was a big exodus of support by brexiteers when she announced it. Its also right to respect the referendum and work towards a soft brexit compromise if we get the chance to put that to people in a general election. Im pleased with this announcement. Better late than never. What they have decided, it was the right thing. Although the damage has already been done, it has actually slowed growth economically and everything, it has slowed the housing market, its other areas of our economy. But i think its a wise thing to do and ijust really, really hope they stick to it and there is a referendum. And you voted leave . There is a referendum. And you voted leave . I voted leave and i think there are millions of voters who voted leave based on those pack of lives and then changed their minds because they realise what we were sold was the wrong product. Do you wa nt to sold was the wrong product. Do you want to stay . Definitely. I think that this is significant shift, actually, from the conference policy. I think its pretty positive but what we now need to do is move towards labour leading that energetic campaign and the leadership saying strongly, we need a radical socialist transformation of britain and europe. Where im from nottingham, we need a corby led Labour Government and that is not in conflict with the transformation of europe. In fact, they are necessarily interlinked. But its in conflict with labour leave voters who want to get out of the eu who will feel betrayed by this shift. Does anyone here agree with that . The problem is we live in a fast moving increasingly complex world. Its great weve come to this position but its too late. Weve lost those photos, now, regretfully, as an ex Labour Party Member, the chance of labour winning the election, we have lost the confidence of Traditional Labour Party supporters. We have been all over the place on brexit. definitely welcome the shift towards remain and backing a second referendum. Our membership support that overwhelmingly and we were hammered at the european elections because we were not clear on a policy. But we need to be honest that the eu has been abundantly clear, this is the deal and they will not be another one. We cannot renegotiate it. We know that we cant renegotiate so we have to put this deal or remain to the people and of course no deal should never be an option. What you say to labour leave voters who might be feeling betrayed this week . leave voters who might be feeling betrayed this week . I understand and respect the position they took in 2016. Many and neighbours. Iwould just say, we have to look at the facts where they are today. We had to look at the damage thats already been done to our Manufacturing Industries and jobs, quite frankly the lies told by people like Boris Johnson, and say we are in a very different situation. And they might say, i dont think we are, i dated to leave and i expected labour to stand by its manifesto commitment to deliver brexit. And that is why the right to resolve this issue is to put it back to the people. You negotiate a deal and put it back to the people and let them have a say. People still want to vote leave, they may vote for it and thats fine but they should also have the option to say, actually, this isnt the way forward particularly given the threats to the steel industry, automotive industry, manufacturing and the risk of further austerity. Why is it right to give people another vote when no one has delivered on the first one . Because right now, the brexit option with the most Energy Behind it is a no deal brexit and i dont think that that should happen and i dont think it can without a mandate from the electorate. Labour tried to de polarise brexit, they tried to say, lets put together the wishes of the 52 and 48 and the only person pleased with that option was owenjames, i person pleased with that option was owen james, i think. Person pleased with that option was owen james, ithink. Laughter person pleased with that option was owen james, i think. Laughter in that context, where people arent getting behind your compromise, whats happening is the tory party are saying what we will do is brexit at any cost. Labour have got to have at any cost. Labour have got to have a conversation and say, does it hold those values. So then do you revoke article 50 or put it back to the people. Putting it back to the people. Putting it back to the people is the new compromise option and thats why i backed it and also back remain. I was always in the can we talk about anything else. Poverty, the nhs, those boring things we used to talk about. Labour was right to say, remain lost the referendum, it was close so lets pivot back to some of the issues that cause people to vote for brexit. I would still be happy with a soft brexit but the problem is about 13 of the country agree with me. Given that no deal is being treated as the only legitimate peer brexit, which was never put to the british people in the referendum, i dont think that labour or people like myself who fear another referendum in lots of ways have any choice but to revisit it and say, look, circumstances have changed and now no deal is the option so we will have to have another vote even though thats not a good option but no option is good now. You must accept that, if no deal seems to be the course we could potentially be on under a new conservative Prime Minister, the only way to get out of thatis minister, the only way to get out of that is to go back to the people. We can talk about having a second referendum until the cows come home but the reality is every day that goes by takes a closer to a catastrophic no deal crash out. We are about to have a hard right tory Prime Minister who says we will leave on the 315t of october come hell or high water. The only way to stop that happening is to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement bill that is on the table, its the only game in town and that gets us to Committee Stage of the bill where we can actually have a debate and a binding vote on whether or not to put it to a referendum. Its all very well saying what we want and protesting about what we want but there is no clear pathway. Youre asking your labour colleagues to vote for whatever Boris Johnson, if he is the new Prime Minister, brings back to the house . Withdrawal agreement bill contains major concessions to labour. Customs union, bill on workers rights, environmental standards. Yes because its not what has been brought back before and boris wont get a new deal because brussels is closed for the so its got to be that or a hard deal crash out. We are playing with fire. How do you respond . I agreed with what owen jones was saying earlier on about how brexit has overshadowed a lot of other issues at the moment. Like poverty, education, personally i think the education, personally i think the Education System is in crisis and we need. I dont necessarily agree with the stance labour had taken but idid think with the stance labour had taken but i did think we needed to take a stance. So im glad we have finally takena stance. So im glad we have finally ta ken a stance stance. So im glad we have finally taken a stance because i feel like people will now start concentrating on some of our other policy points and vote for labour depending on those rather than on our brexit stance. Do you take Stephen Kinnocks point that there is no time . There is blatantly going to be another delay because theyve spent this time doing other things, theyve wasted that time. There may not be a delay. Like thes current strategy has won the last two by elections in leave areas. Strategy has won the last two byelections in leave areas. Is it going to work though . We have over 70 labour seats that voted leave. Is it going to work . If you give people a chance in a general election. Im not talking about a general election. Labour take the position of opposing no deal but to have a confirmative vote is labours position at the minute. Im asking is it realistic . Do you think Stephen Kinnock is right and actually its delusional . There is no way of getting a second referendum before we leave with no deal on october the 31st . Not at all. I blame David Cameron for the fa ct all. I blame David Cameron for the fact we. All. I blame David Cameron for the factwe. I all. I blame David Cameron for the fact we. I dont want to go over the history. Why do you think you can geta the history. Why do you think you can get a second referendum . Is that what labours position is . They will get a second referendum before then . The fundamental question. Im asking you that question. We just seen what Boris Johnson asking you that question. We just seen what borisjohnson has done with regarding donald trump. Seen what borisjohnson has done with regarding donald trump] seen what borisjohnson has done with regarding donald trump. Is that the position . Should we trust somebody like Boris Johnson with a deal . His record speaks for itself. Is it the position to have a second referendum before october the 31st . It couldnt take place before october at the 315t because we have two. We have to have another extension in order to allow. Not necessarily. The government cant even get through the legislation it needs to before october the 315t. You just said we are going to have a second referendum before october the 31st. Parliament will act to stop no deal. There are measures taken this week in parliament, there is going to bea week in parliament, there is going to be a series of different opportunities over the next few weeks. Do you trust parliament to stop no deal . Just about more than half of you do trust parliament. My prediction is Boris Johnson half of you do trust parliament. My prediction is borisjohnson come back on the 4th of september, try and put a deal which will be rejected by the house of commons and then i think he will call a general election which will take place in the middle of october. In those circumstances, labour have to commit to another referendum. If they win the general election, what the eu will do is offer an extension to allow that to happen. Do you think labour should bend campaign to remain . They are going to have to. Weve got a few minutes left. If there is a snap general election in the next year, what should the labour partys big policy offer be to the electorate . I want to bounce around everybody. Ive been really excited by the grassroots effort for a new deal, its an immediate priority that brings together the gargantuan threat of climate breakdown as well as economic inequality and its been really exciting to see how thats been galvanising in the us and we need to emulate that here. Ok. I agree with what is just need to emulate that here. Ok. I agree with what isjust been said. I think labour needs to get back to its core message which is about reducing inequality, helping the economy and doing that in a way which is environmentally friendly. 0k. Which is environmentally friendly. Ok. We need to reverse 40 years of thatcherite consensus, tackle homelessness, increased evolution, Green New Deal absolutely. homelessness, increased evolution, Green New Deal absolutely. I think the most important thing labour needs to concentrate on his ending austerity because it affects a lot of people. Ending the humanitarian disaster that is homelessness on our streets right now by building houses, Council Houses and truly affordable ones. That needs to be a priority for a next Labour Government without a shadow of a doubt. I agree but one thing about what should we say now about a general election is difficult because the probability of a general election before brexit, we cant be sure about that. We cant be sure when general election will happen. To make a Statement Today about brexit, our policy on brexit in a general election, is farcical because there is no ball. Priorities . I agree with absolutely every word of whats been said but if we have a general election before brexit has been resolved, its going to bea brexit has been resolved, its going to be a disaster for the labour party because it will all be about brexit and not the whole nation. Like in the european elections, you will lose weight is that the lib dems. The lib dems and the brexit party. Weve got to resolve the brexit issue so we can get politics back to where it should be. Can i be positive for a moment . I agree with many of the suggestions and for me climate change, homelessness, tackling the crisis caused by austerity is a top priority. But this is the labour party i know and love, the labour supporters i know and love, who are passionate about fighting social injustice. Thats the beauty and the party i see every day. Im so excited about these policy discussions. Number one, universal basic income. So we are tackling wealth inequality through pre distribution. Build more social housing because right now my Retirement Plan is a lid in a cardboard box. Issue number three, the most significant issue facing the most significant issue facing the human species, climate change. Labour need to be more radical on wealth taxes, connect properly to reversing every cut to social security. Ive been depressed by their failure to make the case for migrants since the referendum, they need to start doing that properly. The housing crisis is one of the numberone the housing crisis is one of the number one defining issues of this country and also i would like to look at things like universal basic services where every citizen has the right to services such as housing and other Services Communities depend upon. Transport as well, wifi depend upon. Transport as well, wi fi even. Labour need to be more ambitious and start picking fights with the people at the top, who keep plunging this country into a mess and then creating a culture will ever brexit instead which is depressing. Is Jeremy Corbyn the man to ta ke depressing. Is Jeremy Corbyn the man to take labour into a general election and when yes. No. I heard one no. Two nos. He is not the right man. Who should it be . Personally, i would like to see Stephen Kinnock, hilary benn orjon cruddas. In 2015 we saw what a centrist manifesto did. Under corbyn weve tripled the membership, click the debts and done really well under him and hes won two leadership elections, he deserves the right to lead us into a next election. Thank you, everybody. Iam next election. Thank you, everybody. I am really, really grateful. Bbc newsroom live is coming up next. Have a really lovely day. We started with a fair amount of cloud but it has brightened up quite nicely. This is the scene in kent. Weve got some showers across scotla nd weve got some showers across scotland and the far north of england. Across eastern areas of scotland, eastern parts of england and even across parts of the midlands, there could be a few heavier showers this afternoon with some thunderstorms. Elsewhere, some dry weather with sunny spells and just the odd shower. Maximum temperature is getting up to 20, perhaps 26 degrees down to the south east. Those heavy showers will continue as the evening goes on. They will finally clear away. Tonight, some clear spells with cloud around and if you showers here and there into friday morning. For many of us on friday, a dry day with sunny spells. Maximum temperatures getting into the high teens, to the mid 20s. Goodbye. Youre watching bbc newsroom live its11. 00am and these are the main stories this morning. A Royal Navy Ship has intercepted three iranian boats that were harassing a British Oil Tanker in the gulf. Senior labour figures say theyre appalled by allegations that close allies ofJeremy Corbyn tried to interfere in anti semitism cases. There is obviously some participation in these disciplinary cases from the Leaders Office, which means they are responsible for dealing with the rebuilding trust in the jewish community. Six tourists have been killed and at least 30 others injured in a Violent Storm that swept across northern greece. An independent report into bullying at westminster has found a significant problem with the way some staff of mps are treated