Transcripts For BBCNEWS Victoria Derbyshire 20240713

They get, which is supposed to help pay for food and rent too. Students also tell us theyre also being ripped off by landlords. It was so strong upon us. We were com pletely it was so strong upon us. We were completely blindsided. They will try to gouge money out of you at the end of your tenancy because they know what the majority of students can p5y~ what the majority of students can pay. We had no reason to believe we couldnt get the deposit back until we we re couldnt get the deposit back until we were hit with that. Well talk to 32 year old accountant, edith monk. She has ms and has been left with no care at all because her council cant find anyone to help her get out of bed in the morning. Police forces should not be allowed to investigate Domestic Abuse cases involving members of their own force thats what two women, one of whom is a serving officer, who are currently suing gwent police for the way their cases were handled, have told this programme. If you tell anybody what im like, nobody will believe you, and you genuinely think, hes right, hes got so many friends in the police force and has been here for 20 years and ive only been here a couple of months. Hello. Welcome to the programme. Were live until 11 this morning. Tell us what you think of conservative and labour spending plans. Thanks to those of you who got in touch already about the story about students getting ripped off when it comes to getting their deposits back. Excuse me, ive got a sore throat. Katie on twitter disgraceful. This happened to me twice when renting in london. I went to arbitration both times and won. Attitude was my deposit was their money. Tom on email after finishing my first tenancy in a house share at university, me and my housemates left the property completely spotless, we even defrosted freezers and cleaned windows. 0nly during the summer break to have a very aggressive email with falsified photos attached showing a dirty oven, dirty windows and crumbs everywhere in kitchen. We never got a penny of our deposits back. We would like to talk to you. Do get in church with the usual ways. Lets bring you the news. Labour is promising a huge boost to Public Investment if it wins the election next month. The party is pledging an additional iso billion pounds of spending over 5 years under what he calls a social Transformation Fund for schools, hospitals, and housing. The conservatives have dismissed labours plans as fantasy economics. The former labour minister, ian austin, has attacked Jeremy Corbyn and urged people to vote for borisjohnson. Mr austin became an independent in february and isnt standing in next months general election. He told the bbc mr corbyn is unfit to be Prime Minister, but insists he is not a tory. A general election pact has been agreed between three pro remain parties. The liberal democrats, the greens and plaid cymru wont stand against each other in around 60 constituencies. The lib dem leader, jo swinson, called it a significant moment for remain voters across the country. The jury in the trial of a man accused of murdering the british backpacker, grace millane, has been shown security footage from bars where the two drank and kissed before her death. The 22 year old from essex died in new zealand last december after meeting the defendant on a dating app. A 27 year old man, who cannot be named for legal reasons, denies her murder. A man has been arrested after 15 people were found in the back of a lorry in wiltshire. Police made the discovery close to the m4 near chippenham last night after a tip off. One person was taken to hospital for checks, the others are in police custody. A poll for the Victoria Derbyshire programme has found more than half of poorer students say the cost of their rent is the same or more than the maintenance loan they get, which is supposed to help pay for food as well as rent. Students have told the programme they think theyre also being ripped off by landlords who charge unexpected fees. It was sprung upon us. We had no idea. We were completely blindsided. They will try to gouge money out of you at the end of the tenancy because they know the majority of students when contested. We had no reason to believe that we would not get our deposit back until we were suddenly hit with the bill. A Subscription Streaming Service designed to rival netflix launches this morning. Britbox is a joint collaboration between the uks main terrestrial broadcasters. The platform promises the biggest collection of British Television content ever assembled in one place. A theatre in londons west end was evacuated last night after part of the ceiling collapsed during a show. Four people were taken to hospital after the incident during a performance of death of a salesman at the piccadilly theatre. And thats a summary of the main story so far. Back to victoria. We are expecting sajid javid to give a speech in manchester and we will wait for you to show you some pictures. Well, you can see an empty podium. We are waiting for him and when he begins, we will show you some of his speech. Its all about the economy. We have the speech from the economy. We have the speech from the chancellor in the next half hour oi the chancellor in the next half hour or 0 the chancellor in the next half hour orso and the chancellor in the next half hour or so and then the shadow chancellor John Mcdonnell was will be speaking at 11am. Students. What is going to influence the way you vote at this election . Well, as for most young people the housing crisis is likely to be high on the agenda. And today, an exclusive survey of more than a thousand students carried out by yougov for this programme found that, for more than half of the poorer students who get a maintenance loan to help with the cost of living that loan doesnt leave anything left over for food or books when theyve paid their rent. And for some, it doesnt even cover their rent. And on top of the cost of housing, students continue to face unfair treatment from landlords and letting agents. 0ur reporterjohn 0wen has met three students who are facing losing big chunks of their deposits at the end of their tenancies. Earlier this year, the tenant fees act was introduced to protect renters from unfair agency fees. But this programme has been told that despite this, students remain vulnerable to exploitative charges by private landlords and letting agents, with many saying they face unfair deductions from security deposits at the end of a tenancy. It was so sprung upon us. We had absolutely no idea, we was completley blindsided. They will try and gouge money out of you at the end of the tenancy because they know that the majority of students wont actually fight it or contest it. We had no reason to believe that we wouldnt get our deposit back until we were suddenly hit with a bill. Technically, landlords are obliged to put deposits into a government backed tenancy deposit scheme at the beginning of a tenancy. At the end of the tenancy, the tds should help resolve any disputes. But in practice, many students say this obligation is often ignored by landlords, or that the process of formally challenging the deductions leads to a long delay, and that many students end up paying them anyway. In fact, students weve spoken to have spent months challenging deposit deductions, during which time their entire deposit is withheld. We came to lincoln to meetjessica. Shes one of many students currently trying to challenge end of tenancy charges from her previous landlord. The situation were in it currently is that we left our tenancy in august, and we received notification that the landlord wanted to charge us extra as well as taking away our deposit. Strictly speaking, landlords can only make deductions up to the total amount of a tenants deposit. Butjessica says she got charged a total of £1,600 between four housemates thats £400 each, despite the deposits being just £300. Redecoration, i think is about £50. They have kind of decided that weve not left the property in a fit state. Even though weve been there for two years, theyve not actually allowed for wear and tear, which is an actual thing that landlords are meant to do. Weve been charged for weeding. Weve left, apparently, the garden not a fit state, even though we had the next door neighbour come over with a strimmer, who weve actually had a really Good Relationship with for the past two years. Weve also been charged for damage to the property, which again is things that weve put in maintenance reports and we sent over to them, but theyve neglected to look at it throughout our time there. Jessica says that for her and her housemates, having their deposits withheld has had a serious impact. In regards to everyone in the tenancy, theres someone who isnt able to put down a deposit for his own house and is having to move away, cos he cant afford to do that without the tenancy. A girl who was living in the house isnt able to put a down payment towards the car that she wanted. And overall, really, like the £300 coming back to our accounts was a kind of stepping stone for us to leave university and to like get a little bit extra to, you know, carry on life, i suppose. And its alljust kind of been put on hold at the moment. Its just one of those things that landlords tend to do nowadays with students. I think they look at us and think that were just these dumb kids who dont know what were doing, and its not fair and its not ok. In cardiff, benjamin has had a similar experience. Hes one of dozens of students in the city that we spoke to, who all said some landlords and Estate Agents see students as an easy way to rake in extra cash. They are currently trying to take about half of our deposit in total, £800 of a £1,400 deposit. And the charges that they have imposed on us, some of them seem to be sort of larger charges than you might expect for a smalljob. Some of them are rather baseless and some of them dont, i feel, represent all of the facts at hand. Benjamin showed us a list of the deductions that hes currently facing. So, £150 for cleaning, a full day, cleaning it, removing things. It was far cleaner when we left than when the first tenants moved in. £30 for rubbish removal. We didnt leave any rubbish in the property. We had coordinated, our departure so that it would fall on a day where we could take all the bins out that night. So, painting a bedroom for £100 was essentially to paint over mould. It wasnt dealt with by the letting agents at any time during our tenancy, in spite of repeated contact with the agents. Re sealing the kitchen taps for £30. That was i mean, that one is particularly outrageous. So, to re sealing the bath for £30. £90 for a mattress in bedroom one and £90 for a mattress in bedroom four. £100 for the garden strikes me as a rather shocking one. I think im angry at landlords in cardiff being able to do this. It seems to be a going part of the process that they will try and gouge money out of you at the end of the tenancy because they know that the majority of students wont actually fight it or contest it. According to one recent survey of more than 2,000 students, just 61 of students who pay the deposit said they received the deposit back in full at the end of the tenancy. Of those who had part of their deposit withheld, 27 said that theyd challenged the deductions formally, but ended up paying them anyway. And 24 said that although they disagreed with the deductions, they didnt formally challenge them. We came to the london offices of the National Union of students. Theyre calling for extra enforcement and a tightening of legislation in this area. And we wanted to get their reaction to what the students we spoke to told us. Yeah, im not surprised to hear about this. I see it at every campus i go to. There will be Horror Stories of how landlords have treated students. But what were seeing more and more is kind of unfair contracts. So, landlords charging money for things that really are a result of wear and tear, or things in particular, where students have complained about not working, the landlord doesnt fix, and at the end of the tenancy, the landlord tries to charge them for the breakage of said appliance. The government should be doing more to penalise landlords when they do break the law, when they dont put the deposits away, when they take the deposits away unfairly. There are legitimate reasons for landlords to reduce deposits, such as unpaid rent or direct damage to landlords property. But weve been told consistently that students are penalised without good reason, and that the difficulty of changing deposit deductions leaves them vulnerable to exploitation. But back in lincoln, one recent graduate is working on a way to fight back against unfairand dependency charges. Natasha was threatened with deductions amounting to almost all of her deposit, but is building a way for students to warn others about bad practice. We all got together and we made a website where students can review their student accomodation providers. So, students in lincoln, can we review their letting agent, their landlord or the course providers. Its all anonymous, but itjust means that students can warn each other about the kind of. Difficult letting agents, and the ones that are good. And it kind of means that we can take control of our tenancy by making the informed decision about who to let with before we sign our tenancy agreement. The National Landlords association told us that most landlords do not take unreasonable deductions from deposits. The government pointed us to information saying the tenants should check that a deposit they are asked for, is not more than five weeks worth of rent, and that it will be protected in a government approved scheme. Lets talk to reuben long blake, a student who only ate bowls of peas and soup for a month, ruth day who organised the bristol rent strike and meera chindooroy, policy and Public Affairs manager at the National Landlords association. We might interrupt this conversation if sajid javid starts the speech in manchester. This white, in your first year, you are eating only bowls of peas and soup tell us why. Essentially i was placed in student accommodation, a block that was going for about £6,500 per year. That was the rent per year . That was the rent for our place, and initially i was told i would get about £6,200 per year, but i ended up about £6,200 per year, but i ended up only getting 4100, so basically thatis up only getting 4100, so basically that is a shortfall of two grand and you are supposed to pay for your rent and food with that. So, essentially the bank account crashed and burned through the year despite the fact my parents try to help me as much as they could and i was basically left with not much and big bags of peas are quite economically viable. You are smiling about it but it must have been pretty grim. Viable. You are smiling about it but it must have been pretty grimm was pretty grim but thinking back its its absurd that i was in that position in the first place. We will talk more in a moment but we will cioss talk more in a moment but we will cross to manchester and here from the chancellor, sajid javid. We are going back to the people because we have to end the political crisis that has gripped this country gripped this country now for more than three years. Im the only way to do that is to break that deadlock in parliament. We must end the dealer and delay and we must get brexit done dither and delay. That is the most important thing the economy needs right now. And now we can, because the Prime Minister has got a good deal. That was a huge achievement, because you will remember so achievement, because you will remember so many achievement, because you will remember so many people said that we would not be able to. This deal is good for democracy and its good for the economy. A Strong Economy ultimately depends on a strong democracy. Getting this deal through will give business the confidence it needs, the certainty it needs, to plan and invest for the future. Of course, i talk to businesses all the time. I listen to their concerns. By far the biggest fear of business is aJeremy Corbyn far the biggest fear of business is a Jeremy Corbyn led government. 0ne of the prizes of this election is the chance to end that threat, defeatJeremy Corbyn on december the 12th and they will be gone for good. And now that we have a deal we can finally provide that certainty on brexit as well. Businesses, like the rest of us, they have deadline fatigue. We can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel, but all the lib dems, labour party and snp, all they want to do is to continue to extend that tunnel. Weve all had enough of that. Now the governor of the bank of england has said that the deal is positive for the economy, and the certainty of that positive deal will unleash the private sector to invest even more in our country. And we will all benefit from that deal dividend. Then we can focus on the peoples priorities and priming our economy for the opportunities that lie outside of the eu, including all of the opportunities that will come from the best in class Free Trade Agreement with our european friends. Now, all of this is put at risk by labour, the lib dems and the snp. So i wanted to take this opportunity today to set out at the outset of this campaign to address some of those key issues that i know people up those key issues that i know people up and down the country will understandably be asking. What is the state of our economy . What is the state of our economy . What is the difference between the tories and our opponents and how we think oui and our opponents and how we think our economy should be managed and run . And most importantly, what does it mean for me and my family . Later today, the bank of england will give its latest economic forecast. Forecasts vary. There are a number of global headwinds and challenges. But i am clear that the fundamentals of the uk economy are strong. 0ur economy has confounded expectations. Nine years of consecutive growth. Rising wages. Record employment. We have seen 1000 newjobs on average created every single day. Absolute poverty at its lowest on record. Income inequality is lower than when labour left office in 2010. We have promoted productivity, created Job Opportunities and we have driven growth in our economy. In fact, the imf forecast that next year the uk will grow faster than france, than germany and japan. Now none of this, none of it, has happened by accident. Just look at where we were back when i was elected to parliament back in 2010. The new conservative government had just inherited the highest levels of borrowing in britains peacetime history. A deficit that was equal to 10 of gdp. That was equivalent to borrowing £5,000 every single second. An economy that has been scarred by labours great recession. It was the deepest recession in almost 100 years. And we saw the worst banking crash, notjust in british history, but in global history. And that was right here in our country. The transformation from where we were then to where we are now was not the result of some fiscal cycle or economic inevitability. It was down to solid economic stewardship by successive conservative governments. The hard work and the sacrifice of the british people, and an incredible effort by british businesses of all shapes and sizes. The chancellor, sajid javid speaking in manchester, claiming that by far the biggest fear of business is a Jeremy Corbyn led government. We will put that to a member of the lado labour Shadow Treasury Team in a moment. Remember, it was his boss, Boris Johnson who said eff business. We will hear from johnson who said eff business. We will hearfrom john johnson who said eff business. We will hear from John Mcdonald John Mcdonald, the shadow chancellor, live on bbc news. Its all about the economy on day two of the general Election Campaign. We will continue about the conversation of students and according to this, he was explaining how he got into financial difficulties. It led to him eating peas and soup for a month and it was grim and people are saying, could yourfamily not grim and people are saying, could your family not have helped out a bit more . They looked at the income and base the maintenance alone on that, but if there are other problems like like debt payments and they cannot actually get the money. They supported me as much as they could, but they could not fully support me because there was no way they could do it. Theyjust couldnt do it . I am not blaming them, just asking them. That is often what people say. No problem. Ruth, you organised the rent strikes last year. What was the reason behind it . The reason behind it was at the university of bristol it had doubled beyond the rate of inflation every year and the quality of accommodation had stayed the same and essentially got worse and students were struggling to pay their rent. We only had 1 of beds that were half of the maximum maintenance alone, which is the level of funding most students would get so the majority of students had to top it up from somewhere else. Did it work . It did work. What happened . We gotta hundred and on striker withheld their money to the university and we got rent currents amounting to £130,000 and we won 100 and in the bursary which will come into effect next year £100,000. And students faced really poor maintenance issues that had been dealt with in time, and Building Works and water problems had affected this one hall in bristol significantly through the year. This text says my maintenance alone does not even cover my rent, let alone food and living costs forcing my pa rents to food and living costs forcing my parents to play entirely for my rent and to use my loan for living costs. The only way i could be independent at university was to work full time, which i cant do, because im studying medicine. Heather says scotla nd studying medicine. Heather says scotland got around the issues by setting up a Deposit Guarantee Scheme where rental deposits are placed into a government run scheme and it is therefore safeguarded and held, not given to the landlord. Would you welcome that . There are already schemes in england and wales to protect deposits. But youve heard from our students that its not working, theyre not getting the deposits back and fees are being added on for spurious reasons. Deposits back and fees are being added on for spurious reasonslj disagree. The statistics show that the majority of students get their full deposit back within a month. What about those that dont . For those that dont, they need to make sure they check the inventory carefully at the beginning of the tenancy and make sure that they agree with what the landlord has said about the condition and cleanliness of the property. So you are saying its the fault of the students, or their responsibility, if they get their non full deposit back . Its the students responsibility to challenge deductions they disagree with and there is a process in place for them to do that, to go through the Deposit Protection schemes and you have an independent adjudication process which is completely independent from the tenant and landlord and it will consider the evidence there. That is fair enough, isnt it . Or is that a complete hassle . Its a little bit of a pain but its understandable. What about the rogue ones . We had an e mail from tom at the beginning of the programme where everything was spotless, and he even defrosted the freezer is, and then were sent an e mail with falsified photographs showing the place was a tip. This is why it is key to use that the inventory. It wasnt about stuff that was missing, it was about the state of the place and he says they left it spotless and he gets these photos saying, look at the mess you have left. Using the inventory which will have details of the cleanliness of the property from the beginning of the property from the beginning of the property from the beginning of the tenancy, making sure that thatis of the tenancy, making sure that that is clear in the checkout process and what the condition is at the end of the tenancy and you agree with that at that point, making sure you have evidence of that so if you wa nt you have evidence of that so if you want to take photos of the property to back up your position, that will be helpful. But its really about making sure that the check in and checkout process are dealt with appropriately and you are clear with the landlord about what the condition is. Thank you very much, all of you and apologies for the introduction interruption, but you were very patient. Still to come on the programme, well speak to edith monk. She has been on this programme before. Shes a 32 year old accountant with ms. She lives independently but has been told a shortage of carers means theres no one who can help her get up in the morning and to bed at night. Police forces should not be allowed to investigate Domestic Abuse cases involving members of their own force, according to two women who are currently suing gwent police for the way their cases were handled. We will bring you an exclusive interview. Labour used to say it was intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich. Not any more. As weve been hearing, John Mcdonnell, who in five weeks time could be the man in charge of the nations finances, will say in a speech at 11 this morning that if labour gets into power we will see an irreversible shift in the balance of power and wealth in favour of working people. Borisjohnson said this week labours hatred of the rich makes labour worse than the murderous soviet dictatorjoseph stalin. And theres a warning that the super rich could leave the country, fearing extra taxes. Thats come from the Financial Advisory organisation the devere group. Well speak to a representative from them ina well speak to a representative from them in a few minutes. So will the billionaires up and leave . Should we care . And if they do, what impact would it have on the rest of us . In a moment, well ask a man worth an estimated £70 million. But first, lets talk to jonathan reynolds, part of labours treasury team. Thank you very much for talking to us, mr reynolds. I want to talk about the eye watering sums promised by the chancellor today. , £650 billion over ten years and what people watching will want to know is, one, whatare people watching will want to know is, one, what are you going to spend it on, and number two, is, one, what are you going to spend it on, and numbertwo, are they going to pay for it in higher taxes . Its great to be here and an exciting day and an economy day in the Election Campaign and we will set out some very big commitments on the kind of investment we want to see and were notjust talking about the amount of money, but who will get to make those decisions and we wa nt get to make those decisions and we want that investment transferred to the north and make sure people based in the north are the ones making those decisions as well. To directly a nswer those decisions as well. To directly answer the question, in terms of investment, wed be borrowing to investment, wed be borrowing to invest and thats a sensible proposition to spread the cost over many years because that is where the benefits will be felt, but as ever, we will set out like in the last election for any tax rises, complete transparency in a great book that lists spending commitments alongside any tax rises that go to pay for that, but on investment spending, this country needs a considerable increase in that spending on things like transport, housing and how to make the transition to a low Carbon Economy and thats exactly what government should be doing. So all the investment spending will be borrowing . So yes, we wouldnt borrow for day to day spending, borrowing would be investment or a repeated similar commitment at this election, and that makes complete sense. If you compare Public Investment in this country with comparable developed countries, it is not where it needs to be in the uk. The last labour politician and government to hide yourjob was a man called liam byrne, who famously left a message for the incoming government to say, iam afraid for the incoming government to say, i am afraid there is no money left. Is that going to happen if labour win the next election . No, and he was repeating an old parliamentary convention, it was not the job was repeating an old parliamentary convention, it was not thejob i do, he made a mistake and apologised. But the point is there was no money left a gap that wasnt true at all. If you look at the demand for uk sovereign debt, which basically powers investment spending, there is no shortage of demand for that, people looking for a safe haven globally state of the global economy, so there is no problem finding this investment, it is about political will. 0k, finding this investment, it is about political will. Ok, that is fair enough, but when john political will. Ok, that is fair enough, but whenJohn Mcdonnell, who could be the chancellor and who lists his hobby as the downfall of capitalism, that scares people who watch this programme. Dog lp has a dry sense of humour, but no one got killed needs to worry about that, and people should be excited about it. I listened to the start of the programme, not a lot of humility from the chancellor, and many people will wonder what country he is talking about, because theyre love lives have been very hard for the last, they dont have the infrastructure they need to get to work, and they want. We are going to make sure that people get a say in how money is spent. Everyone who has got a credit ca rd spent. Everyone who has got a credit card or mortgage knows that paying debt back may be manageable while Interest Rates are low, but if they go up, Interest Rates are low, but if they go up, it will be a big issue. That is why we have very strict rules about how the quantum of debt would be managed over the course of a parliament. That doesnt mean anything to anybody watching. If Interest Rates go up, payments will go up, Interest Rates go up, payments will go up, that is a fact, yes . That is the case in normal circumstances. So it is going to be an issue if they go up . There is no reason to believe they would. You have got literally no idea if you would let me finish, we know how they have been over the last ten years, and even with very considerable shocks to the economy, yields have gone down, people around the world are looking for safe havens for where they can put their money, and uk Government Debt is a very sound bet on that measure. We can see what the cost of that borrowing is and make very sensible predictions about what we need to do as a country. To get control of Government Debt and deficit, you can increase taxes, you can cut spending, as this government has done, but you need to get Economic Growth going, and for the last nine years it has been very poon last nine years it has been very poor. So what percentage with the economy have to grow by under a Labour Government to serve as there is massive debt . It depends on the individual projects and the long term impact, but we can look at. Youjust long term impact, but we can look at. You just told me that you dont expect Interest Rates to go up, surely you have looked at what percentage the economy has to grow. If you look at the quantum of Public Investment in comparable countries, there is no reason to believe that what we are proposing is out of the ordinary compared to that. Sorry to interrupt, mist reynolds, i want to ask you about very rich people, we are going to talk to a very rich man ina are going to talk to a very rich man in a moment, lord sugar has left the labour party, he has said he will leave the country of mr corbyn becomes Prime Minister, for a number of reasons, how many super rich people are you happy to leave the country . This comes up every time there is an election, and very well off people make these claims about any non conservative government. Off people make these claims about any nonconservative government. So if alan sugar left, would that be ok with you . Could you let me finish the point . We are comfortable with people being filthy rich as long as they pay their taxes, that was the code, and we are not running the country in the interests of those people. If they want a prosperous, successful cou ntry people. If they want a prosperous, successful country with good Public Services and they are willing to pay their taxes, there is no reason to fear, and if you look at the tax rises proposed in the last ma nifesto, rises proposed in the last manifesto, which will be fairly similarto manifesto, which will be fairly similar to this time around, we were talking about income tax rises for only the top 5 of earners, nothing shocking. To watch . There was a tax rise for people earning over £80,000 and a new income tax above £123,000. Those rights will be announced in the manifesto, because we are two years on from the last election. Would you expect the top wa nt to election. Would you expect the top want to be more than 50 . It would be similarto want to be more than 50 . It would be similar to the top 5 of people facing those tax rises. Would you be co mforta ble facing those tax rises. Would you be comfortable with alan sugar leaving the country . What about mike ashley . Would you be comfortable if he left the country . I would ask his workers to pay the minimum wage, they were not when i was on the business select committee, and i am uncomfortable with some of the practices in the Sports Direct factory, but if he is willing to rectify those things, we want him to abide by the law, and that would be fine. We are not running the country based on whether very wealthy people say it is ok with them, they get the same size as everyone else, and i think that is entirely reasonable. Quick final thought, ian austin, you may have heard him telling people to vote for Boris Johnson, what may have heard him telling people to vote for borisjohnson, what do you think of a man who has been in the labour party for three and a half decades saying that . Of course, i am sad to hear that, of course i am sad. You still respect him . I dont agree with him, and for me, asking someone to vote for the conservative party would be really accepting the hardship, pain and misery that many of my constituents have faced for nine years, and i dont agree with that, but everyone is entitled to their say. I saw some conservative ministers last night say they are not voting conservative, so people are expressing how they feel about the election, but the election is about the issues, and i am comfortable with what we are talking about today, which is how the economy can work better for everybody and we can get the investment we need where we needed. Thank you very much, jonathan reynolds. We will hear the John Mcdonnell speech at 11am. And we can speak now to multimillionaire and former conservative donor charlie mullins. Tom elliott from the Financial Advisory organisation the devere group. And labour supporter paul mason, a former bbc Business Editor and channel 4 economics editor, now freelance. Morning, welcome, all of you. Tom elliott, the organisation that you work for is warning that a Jeremy Corbyn government could lead to an exit of wealthy individuals, what is your evidence . History, go back to the 19705, and top aeronautical engineers went to boeing because of the nationalisation of the Aerospace Industry and high taxes. What about 1997 . What happened in 1997 . Data rich people leave . No, and why . Because we had the incoming government coming in that the current labour leadership despised, because they carried on the low income rights, they are comfortable with the super rich, and its current leadership de5pi5es that era of the Labour Government. Recent history, last year in fact, forbes reported that 6000 very rich people left the uk undera that 6000 very rich people left the uk under a tory government, isnt the truth that there is a wide variety of reasons why rich people leave the uk . Granted, it might be for retirement, it might be for tax reasons, it could be for all sorts of things. Reasons, it could be for all sorts of things. Exactly, reasons, it could be for all sorts of things. Exactly, so reasons, it could be for all sorts of things. Exactly, so they will leave because of a coffee government but that is not true . Not at all, i have given some reason as to why people leave, including tax reasons, andi people leave, including tax reasons, and i believe the share of people who leave because of tax reasons will grow quite dramatically if i have a government who. It is not so much the number, the top rate of tax, a0 , so much the number, the top rate of tax, 40 , 50 , it is so much the number, the top rate of tax, a0 , 50 , it is the dog whistle signalled that it is giving to the rich, 5aying, actually, we dont wa nt rich, 5aying, actually, we dont want you in this country, you are not part of us, you are a sponging pa rt not part of us, you are a sponging part of society, and if you cant be shaken down, girl, and we wont mind so much. Charlie mullins, you are a multimillionaire, would you leave the country of jeremy multimillionaire, would you leave the country ofJeremy Corbyn wins the country ofJeremy Corbyn wins the election . No, because my Business Needs to be here, but apparently certain businesses well, andl apparently certain businesses well, and i think we should actually be giving businesses, we have 5 million Small Businesses, the backbone behind the economy, why would you wa nt behind the economy, why would you want to penalise them for creating jobs, creating products and creating wealth for the economy. Paul mason, is that a fair charge, that labour will penalised successful businesses that employ thousands of people . There are two questions here, businesses and individuals, and your report is about rich people leaving the country. Jonathan reynolds was a bit too polite. When it comes to russian oligarchs and saudi princes and tax dodgers and money launderers, i and tax dodgers and money launderers, lam and tax dodgers and money launderers, i am quite happy to show for them to the first class lounge at heathrow and say goodbye. For the re st of at heathrow and say goodbye. For the rest of the rich, i would say stay, because a government like a Labour Government, a progressive government that spends money on ordinary people, on infrastructure, on services will make this already great country, which is why rich people want to live here, the Cultural Capital of the world, but it would be better if we didnt have People Living in boxes, in containers with disabled children, some of you may be watching this now, and a Labour Government will use of the tax to pay for that. Double of what you are saying is right, we need to be attacking the billionaires, the oil billionaires, the footballers and pop stars and people avoiding tax, but why would you get on to entrepreneurs who are trying to create jobs and get people into work . What you are saying is right, we need to attack the people that are not paying the proper taxes. Last time, labour was trying to raise 50 billion. The story you are reporting today is 650 billion of borrowing. Nobody can say you cant do that, it might cost more, but the 50 billion is small in relation to that. Of that, 20 was going to come from simply raising corporation tax, which i pay is a Small Business person, you pay, and from 20 up to what normal people, 25. Corporation tax is 20 . It was 28 in 2010, it has come down to 20 , labour are saying they would put it up to 25 . But raising taxes doesnt necessarily bring more into the economy, we have proven that when we used to pay 50 . The point is we are an ageing society, we need to decarbonise the economy, we need to decarbonise the economy, we need to find the money to invest in Public Services, redistribute wealth to people on low incomes, and if you do that, tax has to be part of it, but if you can do the sums, 50 versus 650, most of what labour is planning to do for people is being done through borrowing. May i say, i lived in denmark for a while, which isa lived in denmark for a while, which is a socialist model that i think many in the labour party would aspire to, and i paid 46 working in aspire to, and i paid 46 working in a fast food restaurant, this was when i was a student. Now, that is how tax, high Government Spending to a high quality. Everybody pays high tax, and a high quality. Everybody pays high tax, and i do not indulge in a bash the rich culture. The rich to pay even more than that, but not massively more. So everyone has buy into the system. What is being proposed is a narrow part of society, the top 1 , basically shouldering the 27 they currently do and even more. Now, i dont think that that is actually equitable. I believe that you should actually have as many people in society as possible paying tax so they have skiing in the game, and not leaving a small group to show that the white. You are not suggesting stu d e nts white. You are not suggesting students work in mcdonalds by 46 tax rate . What do you say to that, paul mason, spread that around, on those figures, the top 1 by 27 of income tax, is it right for labour to push that up . To what . |j income tax, is it right for labour to push that up . To what . I think it is, i dont have an ideal percentage in my mind, but there are 9000 people in this country who last year made £34 billion between them simply from the rising value of their property assets. Income tax is not going to collect money from that, it is the rising value. All societies with ageing populations, multilateral institutions agree on this, are going to have to raise more tax somehow, and if the incomes of the rich are not accessible, we need to be able to tax assets. Labour, last time, was talking about 10 billion worth of assets taxes on trading bonds or shares, 0k . 10 billion worth of assets taxes on trading bonds or shares, ok . I 10 billion worth of assets taxes on trading bonds or shares, 0k . Ithink all developed world societies are going to have to work out ways of taxing the assets of the rich. It is an unusual thing because we have generally gone after income. The alternative is more people in foodbanks, nhs doesnt work, closure of Maternity Units in pontefract, that happened this week. We dont wa nt that happened this week. We dont want a society like that, and to those rich people who you advise and your company advises, this could be such a better country if we just spent a little bit more money on it. We have to leave it there, thank you very much for coming on the programme. Police forces should not be allowed to investigate Domestic Abuse cases involving members of their own force, according to two women who are currently suing gwent police for the way their cases were handled. Both women were in a relationship with pc clarkejoslyn and say he was violent and abusive towards them but that gwent police initially protected him. A Disciplinary Panel found he had been physically abusive towards the women. He has since resigned from his post. The women are also involved in a separate super complaint against six Police Forces involving at least 15 other women. Super complaints are a relatively new and rare legal action taken against the police, and other public bodies, when they feel all other avenues have been exhausted. Its heard by hm inspectorate and the independent 0ffice for Police Conduct rather than a court. Ive been speaking tojodie and sarah not their real names who are suing gwent police. Jodie is still a serving officer. Weve used actors voices. This follows an exclusive story on this programme when we revealed there are more than four allegations of Domestic Abuse against police staff recorded each week. I want to ask you, jodie, first of all, you met pc clarkejoslyn on a Training Course in 2011. How quickly after that did you get into a relationship with him . It was actually very quick. He added me on facebook and within a week we were going on our first date. And to begin with you say he was lovely, he was kind, he was charming. When did things change . Things changed about three months into the relationship. Little signs of control. But initially, i couldnt see it like that. I was totally flattered. I thought it was because he cared about me. And tell us about what you say was his controlling behaviour, and also his physically abusive behaviour . Ok, so he would tell me not to answer my phone if i had a message. He would be demanding to check my phone, monitor my facebook accounts, and he became obsessed by anyone that liked my photos. As far as the physical side goes, he would grab me by my arms. If he didnt want me to leave the house, he would bruise my arms, leave marks from his fingertips. He would often pull a knife, pull a knife out and just squish a knife in my face for no apparent reason. He would grab me from behind as if in a chokehold, and hed say, i could choke you, you know, i could choke you if i wanted to. Were you scared . I was terrified of him. So you went to the police, did you, about your Boyfriend Police officer . And how did they treat what you were saying . Initially, the sergeants that i reported it to were fantastic. They took it really seriously. They escalated it straightaway to an inspector. And i think they realised that they had a serious situation. From there, i went to professional standards, which investigated any wrongdoing within the police. And then thats when it all went really wrong. In what respect . Well, i was told that he was given a verbal harassment warning by a senior officer. And when they told me his name, i knew that he was friends with clarke outside of work. He immediately breached that verbal harassment warning by contacting me anyway. I was then told he was issued with a written harassment warning, which hed breached within a week via email. So i reported both. It then took me four years from that point to get to the disciplinary hearing. Sarah, let me bring you in. Was it because of the fact that pc joslyn had breached these warnings, and no one bothered that hed breached them, that he was then able effectively to have a relationship with you . Yeah. When i met him, he was still training young females that he would target from his position. And you had a relationship with him how did that go . It only took a couple of weeks for me to think, theres something not right here. One night he literally walked past me as he came out the toilet, because i was stood talking to a male that i knew at the bar. We got back to his house and he had his back to me, wouldnt speak to me at all. I had all the threats of, if you tell anybody what im like, im going to have yourjob. Nobodys going to believe you. And you genuinely do think, hes right. Hes got so many friends in the police force hes been here for 20 years, and ive only been here a couple of months. Did you know about his relationship with jodie . No. The worrying thing is that nobody ever approached me from a senior level to say, this guy is not a nice guy, he doesnt treat women well. You were together for about two years. After the relationship ended, you saw a counsellor that, i think, encouraged you to help report pcjoslyn. How did police then take what you reported . I can only describe it as a joke. It was investigated terribly. People who took on the investigation knew him, worked in the same building as him. It should have been investigated by another force it took four years to get to that point. What was the outcome of that . He didnt turn up for his disciplinary hearing. He was found guilty of gross misconduct, but he actually resigned before any of that was read out. That Misconduct Hearing has a lower burden of proof the criminal courts, for example. Hes not been charged with anything. No. Gwent police say, we expect all of our officers and staff to act in accordance with the code of ethics and the standards of professional behaviour at all times. It is right that anyone who does not adhere to these standards is held accountable and the appropriate action is taken. Do you think hes been held accountable . Absolutely not. He should have been held accountable. In 2012, when the harassment was reported, if they had dealt with it correctly, then i would never have become a victim. I would never have been assaulted, never controlled, never driven away from my family and friends. He used to ban me from going out with my friends. He used to lock me out of the house if i was 30, even 30 seconds past my curfew. If i tried to get out of the house again, hed pin me down to the bed to stop me from leaving. He left bruises on my arms. Then one night, i physically had to fight my way out of the house. Another night, when i didnt get out of the bath quick enough, and finally, just so im clear, what is it that you want from the gwent force now . I mean, you still work for them . I still work for them. Im in quite a difficult position, because obviously theyre still my employer as well. On a really basic level, weve never, ever had an apology. Weve never had a thanks for actually coming forward and giving evidence, thanks for allowing them to basically eliminate a predator from the police force. Yourself, finally . I would love a public apology. I think had they dealt with her complaint in the first place, he never would have had the opportunity for me to be his next victim. Id like an apology and a change in the policies. If you cant trust the police, who can you trust . Clarke joslyn denies all the allegations. He said, i could prove many as false. The case was assessed and reviewed by the cps on three occasions, and with no criminal case to answer, i faced a Misconduct Hearing. Gwent police employed the National Lead on Police Misconduct and a qc from london. I was forced to represent myself. With no legal advocate or support, i suffered a mental breakdown, and i was overwhelmed in trying to present my case to such formidable opposition. The hearing was held in my absence. And if youve been affected by issues in this discussion, there is a range of organisations and websites that can offer you advice and support. You can find them listed on the bbcs actionline website at bbc. Co. Uk actionline. Edith monk is a 32 year old accountant from hertfordshire. She has ms and lives independently, but she is totally reliant on carers to get out of bed in the morning and go to bed at night. 18 months ago, she told us she faced having to give up herjob and live in a care home because no carers could be found to come to her house. That didnt happen after she appeared on our programme. But now she says she has been left with no care at all. Lets talk to edith now. Thank you for coming back on. Just for those who didnt see you on the programme last time, you are diagnosed in 2004, how long have you been living independently for, what sort of care do you need . been living independently for, what sort of care do you need . I have been living independently since i started university, i had to move when my ms progressed, and my pa rents when my ms progressed, and my parents helped me when i found an accessible flat and got the social ca re accessible flat and got the social care setup, and then i moved back out. When you were on our programme last time, the situation then was there were no care is available to come into your home because of a shortage, and therefore you might have to go into a care home. That didnt happen, thank goodness. This time, there is another shortage of carers, and also no possibility of a ca re carers, and also no possibility of a care home. I am just carers, and also no possibility of a care home. I amjust incomplete limbo. So my existing agency was so short staffed, and they gave their notice to social services, and then i had notice to social services, and then ihada notice to social services, and then i had a call on friday, the first time, telling me that my cat was ceasing this week and they were looking for a new agency. And as of yesterday morning, no one could be found. My parents had to drive over the last night and this morning to hoist me into bed, get me out of bed, and hoist me into bed, get me out of bed, and i am waiting for a call from social services, im hoping after this there will be amazed my phone to tell me if ive got a keratin tonight or not. It is really distressing, though, isnt it . Yeah, it is really stressful, and itjust feels so fragile, and every time it gets harder, because obviously ms is progressive. Like between last year and this year my right hand has got worse, and i just and this year my right hand has got worse, and ijust feel like i am going to have to fight this for the rest of my life, and itjust gets harder. Too much, isnt it . Yeah. And so i am just waiting by the phone to find out if ive got a carer. I cant make plans for this weekend, i dont know where i will be, what i am doing. I am going to read to you what the council say. We are very aware of read to you what the council say. We are very aware of the current need to find new carers for ms monk, we are conscious of the impact it is having on her, and we will continue to prioritise the search for a new ca re to prioritise the search for a new care provider. So they are very sympathetic but there is no timescale there. And the people i have spoken to on the phone have all been really sympathetic, but there just arent the carers available, and theyre telling me that if i had and theyre telling me that if i had a later morning call, they might be able to find an agency more easily, but if i did that, id have to give up but if i did that, id have to give up work, so i dont know what to do. And this correspondence as i am horrified by the story of edith, nobody should face the indignity. Her council should feel ashamed of the situation, they dont seem to care, it is shocking. I dont know if you heard borisjohnsons pledge in recent months to fix the social ca re system once in recent months to fix the social care system once and for all, in fa ct care system once and for all, in fact that was in his first speech as Prime Minister, and we will see what comes up Prime Minister, and we will see what comes up in the various party ma nifestos. Comes up in the various party manifestos. But you need this sort in quickly, you cant wait for a review or a few years, can you . No, i need carers tonight and tomorrow. I just. I need carers tonight and tomorrow. Ijust. Ifeel like i need carers tonight and tomorrow. I just. I feel like the i need carers tonight and tomorrow. Ijust. I feel like the social ca re system ijust. I feel like the social care system they are so stretched, it is not me having a challenge from the council about my care plan or about my need for care, it is just that they cant meet the demand and they cant do it. I dont know what they cant do it. I dont know what the answer is, just the social care system. The government are saying theyre going to reform it in a few yea rs, theyre going to reform it in a few years, i hope something comes of it, but i hope in my personal case something happens today. Same here. Hopefully, hearing your story again may help you in the short term. That is what im hoping. Thank you very much, edith, we appreciate your time, thank you. Before we go, we wa nt to time, thank you. Before we go, we want to say thank you to one of our camera operators, lindsay wells is leaving the bbc today, she has been brilliant, with us from the start, calm, professional, lovely, we want to wish her lots of love and look in her new career, good luck good morning. Heavy rainfall around through zero oils, much of Northern England towards the east midlands. All this rainfall has so far caused us all this rainfall has so far caused us lots of puddles, lots of surface water spray and localised flooding, particularly that rain lasting through north wales, Northern England, right through the day and into this evening. A band of rain stretching down to the south east, this is the earlier rainfall radar imagery, further north across scotla nd imagery, further north across scotland are snow over higher ground, butan scotland are snow over higher ground, but an amber warning from the met office for the south pennines, up to 100 of rain falling by friday morning, continuing to bring quite a bit of disruption and flooding through today. Quite widely across north wales, that rain doesnt move very far. Further south, sunny spells, showers in the south west, the rain is as from scotland, the hills now disappears here, a chilly day wherever you are, but not very nice at all if you are beneath the cloud and rain across north wales and Northern England. Through the evening that rain continues into friday morning. Youre watching bbc newsroom live. Its11am and these are the main stories this morning. Labour promises an additional £150 billion of Public Investment in what it calls an irreversible shift in wealth in favour of working people. Labour promises an additional £150 billion of Public Investment in what it calls an irreversible shift in wealth in favour but the tories call it fantasy economics, and say the economys safer in their hands. Former labour minister ian austin, who left the party in february, has urged people to vote conservative in decembers general election. The country faces a big choice. There are only two people who can be Prime Minister on december the 13th, Jeremy Corbyn borisjohnson, and i thinkJeremy Corbyn is completely unfit to lead our