Transcripts For BBCNEWS Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg 20240909

Also. Competing. Thank you very much, also kate competing. Thank you very much, also. Kate winslet competing. Thank you very much, also. Kate winslet is competing. Thank you very much, also. Kate winslet is back also. Kate winslet is back talking abOut her new movie and her new attitude, too. Her new attitude, too. Laura, life is too her new attitude, too. Laura, life is too short, her new attitude, too. Laura, life is too short, you her new attitude, too. Laura, life is too short, you know . L her new attitude, too. Laura, life is too short, you know . I | life is too short, you know . I dont life is too short, you know . I dont want life is too short, you know . I dont want to look back and go, why worry dont want to look back and go, why worry abOut that . So i dont why worry abOut that . So i dont worry any more. The editor of dont worry any more. The editor of the dont worry any more. The editor of The Sun dont worry any more. The editor of The Sun and dont worry any more. Iie editor of The Sun and the guardian scooped are here with us today along with the chef. Morning, morning. Lets start as we always do, with whats making the news. No one dominant story this morning. We heard Keir Starmer condemning the tories� handling of the nhs in our interview. The observer leads with the Governments Review into the nhs. The Mail On Sunday and The Sunday express both go after Labours Tax plans. Michael gove tells The Sunday times The Treasury blocked him going after grenfell bosses. We will hear more from Keir Starmer abOut that later too. The sun and the Mirror Splash on strictly and oasis. Maybe something in there for everyone. Keir starmer, victoria, we will hearfrom him at everyone. Keir starmer, victoria, we will hear from him at length for The First time, but it has been a gloomy first time, but it has been a gloomy first couple of Months. That first time, but it has been a gloomy first couple of Months. First couple of Months. That is ri. Ht. First couple of Months. That is riuht. I first couple of Months. That is right. I started first couple of Months. That is right. I started off first couple of Months. That is right. I started off hitting first couple of Months. That is right. I started off hitting the| right. I started off hitting the ground running with planning reforms, the nhs before now going to do, but obviously riots, which i think caught them on the back foot, a bit of a mixed bag and a gloomy set of predictions. A bit of a mixed bag and a gloomy set of predictions. Pippa, he walked into a big Row Set of predictions. Pippa, he walked into a big row over set of predictions. Pippa, he walked into a big row over the set of predictions. Pippa, he walked into a big row over the Winter Set of predictions. Pippa, he walked into a big row over the Winter Fuel i into a big row over the Winter Fuel allowance, a vote in parliament this week, how would you assess how serious it is for him on that issue . Actually the most serious potential rebellion actually the most serious potential rebellion he has faced of his premiership, it is something i have found premiership, it is something i have found mps premiership, it is something i have found mps from the left, middle and iiliit found mps from the left, middle and right of found mps from the left, middle and right of the Labour Party really concerned abOut, their own E Mail Inbox concerned abOut, their own E Mail Inbox is concerned abOut, their own E Mail Inbox is overflowing from constituents, and the party whips Out talking to people and were showing Out talking to people and were showing them, saying it is an important showing them, saying it is an important part of plugging the hole that government say they have inherited that government say they have inherited from the tories, but a lot of wobbles. Inherited from the tories, but a lot of wobbles, at the top as Well. Wobbling already . Not of wobbles, at the top as Well. Wobbling already . Of wobbles, at the top as Well. Wobbling already . Not a maor parliamentary D Wobbling already . Not a maor parliamentary rebellion. � wobbling already . Not a maor parliamentary rebellion. He h wobbling already . Not a major| parliamentary rebellion. He has wobbling already . Not a major i parliamentary rebellion. He has a hue parliamentary rebellion. He has a huge majority parliamentary rebellion. He has a huge majority of parliamentary rebellion. He has a huge majority of the parliamentary rebellion. He has a huge majority of the rebellion parliamentary rebellion. He has a huge majority of the rebellion in l huge majority of the rebellion in july huge majority of the rebellion in july over the two child benefit cap, seven Labour Mps suspended for several Months, the whips will be hanging that over people as a track of what might happen should they go against. The of what might happen should they go aaainst. ,. Of what might happen should they go aaainst. , i , against. The public feeling is very stron . Against. The public feeling is very strong proud against. The public feeling is very strong. Proud campaigner against. The public feeling is very strong. Proud campaigner for against. The public feeling is very strong. Proud campaigner for the | strong. Proud campaigner for the green party. Strong. Proud campaigner for the green party, but strong. Proud campaigner for the green party, but this strong. Proud campaigner for the | green party, but this government strong. Proud campaigner for the green party, but this government has vowed to take a very different approach on the environment and energy, what is your take on what you have seen so far . Energy, what is your take on what you have seen so far . Yes, i am on Keir Starmers you have seen so far . Yes, i am on Keir Starmers side you have seen so far . Yes, i am on Keir Starmers side and you have seen so far . Yes, i am on Keir Starmers side and we you have seen so far . Yes, i am on Keir Starmers side and we want. You have seen so far . Yes, i am on| Keir Starmers side and we want him to do Keir Starmers side and we want him to do Well Keir Starmers side and we want him to do Well and Keir Starmers side and we want him to do Well and we Keir Starmers side and we want him to do Well and we want Keir Starmers side and we want him to do Well and we want him Keir Starmers side and we want him to do Well and we want him to to do Well and we want him to succeed to do Well and we want him to succeed in to do Well and we want him to succeed in areas to do Well and we want him to succeed in areas with to do Well and we want him to succeed in areas with really i to do Well and we want him to. Succeed in areas with really bold policies. Succeed in areas with really bold policies. Not succeed in areas with really bold policies, not to succeed in areas with really bold policies, not to be succeed in areas with really bold policies, not to be timid. Succeed in areas with really bold policies, not to be timid. So succeed in areas with really bold policies, not to be timid. So far, he has policies, not to be timid. So far, he has been policies, not to be timid. So far, he has been a policies, not to be timid. So far, he has been a little policies, not to be timid. So far, he has been a little bit policies, not to be timid. So far, he has been a little bit on policies, not to be timid. So far, he has been a little bit on the i he has been a little bit on the Timid He has been a little bit on the timid side, he has been a little bit on the timid side, certainly he has been a little bit on the timid side, certainly when he has been a little bit on the timid side, certainly when it i he has been a little bit on the timid side, certainly when it comes tom timid side, certainly when it comes tom he timid side, certainly when it comes tom he seems timid side, certainly when it comes to. He seems to timid side, certainly when it comes to. He seems to be timid side, certainly when it comes to. He seems to be putting timid side, certainly when it comes to. He seems to be putting all. Timid side, certainly when it comes to. He seems to be putting all of| to. He seems to be putting all of his green to. He seems to be putting all of his green eggs to. He seems to be putting all of his green eggs in to. He seems to be putting all of his green eggs in the to. He seems to be putting all of his green eggs in the energy to. He seems to be putting all of. His green eggs in the energy basket, his green eggs in the energy basket, his own his green eggs in the energy basket, his own climate his green eggs in the energy basket, his own Climate Change his green eggs in the energy basket, his own climate Change Committee i his own climate Change Committee have made his own climate Change Committee have made it his own climate Change Committee have made it clear his own climate Change Committee have made it clear there his own climate Change Committee have made it clear there are his own climate Change Committee have made it clear there are manyl have made it clear there are many other have made it clear there are many other sectors have made it clear there are many other sectors that have made it clear there are many other sectors that require have made it clear there are many other sectors that require reform i other sectors that require reform and bold other sectors that require reform and bold policies other sectors that require reform and bold policies around other sectors that require reformi and bold policies around climate, including and bold policies around climate, including of and bold policies around climate, including of course and bold policies around climate, including of course housing, including of course housing, transport, including of course housing, transport, but including of course housing, transport, but also including of course housing, transport, but also food including of course housing, transport, but also food and including of course housing, transport, but also Food And Farming in nature transport, but also Food And Farming in nature which transport, but also Food And Farming in nature which i transport, but also Food And Farming in nature which i think transport, but also Food And Farming in nature which i think was transport, but also Food And Farming in nature which i think was a transport, but also Food And Farming in nature which i think was a huge i in nature which i think was a huge issue in nature which i think was a huge issue in in nature which i think was a huge issue in the in nature which i think was a huge issue in the election in nature which i think was a huge issue in the election and in nature which i think was a huge issue in the election and one in nature which i think was a huge issue in the election and one of. In nature which i think was a huge i issue in the election and one of the Reason Issue in the election and one of the reason the issue in the election and one of the reason the Tories Issue in the election and one of the reason the tories was issue in the election and one of the reason the tories was unpopular i reason the tories was unpopular because reason the tories was unpopular because they reason the tories was unpopular because theyjust reason the tories was unpopular because theyjust did reason the tories was unpopular because theyjust did not reason the tories was unpopular because theyjust did not appear reason the tories was unpopular i because theyjust did not appear to ive because theyjust did not appear to give a because theyjust did not appear to give a damn because theyjust did not appear to give a damn abOut because theyjust did not appear to give a damn abOut our because theyjust did not appear to give a damn abOut our green because theyjust did not appear to give a damn abOut our green and l give a damn abOut our green and pleasant give a damn abOut our green and pleasant land. Give a damn abOut our green and pleasant land, particularly give a damn abOut our green and pleasant land, particularly rivers| pleasant land, particularly rivers and seas pleasant land, particularly rivers and seas so pleasant land, particularly rivers and seas. I pleasant land, particularly rivers and seas. I, pleasant land, particularly rivers and seas. I i, i, i, and seas. So much to talk abOut, so much to talk and seas. So much to talk abOut, so much to talk abOut and seas. So much to talk abOut, so much to talk abOut with and seas. So much to talk abOut, so much to talk abOut with him, and seas. So much to talk abOut, so much to talk abOut with him, and i and seas. So much to talk abOut, so | much to talk abOut with him, and we could not get to every subject, but plenty you are abOut to hear, 65 days on since the Keir Starmer became Prime Minister. After four years as labour leader, and ia years of the conservatives in charge. Since then, weve heard again and again how broken he believes the country is whether its the economy, the nhs, the summer riots, or trains that dont run on time. Today he vows hell be unpopular to sort it all Out, but labour is plainly delighted to be back in power Keir Starmer only the Fifth Labour Prime Minister to win a general election. What was it like taking his seat at cabinet for The First time . It was a really important moment because it was a moment of great change for the country, change for me and my family, but the chance to do what i came into politics to do. I came into politics relatively late in life. I came in with a clear intention to change the country for the better. Its really hard to do that from opposition. So, when we were able to win the election with a good mandate for change, and come in here to the Cabinet Room and sit down for The First time as a team, it was a really important moment, a moment of change and the beginning of the next stage of the journey for the country, which is very, very important. Did you have to pinch yourself at all . Well, you do. You know, as you walk in the door, as i walked for The First time, as you know, i walked up Downing Street. Lots of people there, friends, supporters, People Id known a long time. Then stood with vic at the door. The door opens and you walk in. And that is the moment that i think i really took it in that, you know, weve got the chance to change the country, we own all the problems, of course, but actually, the hard work was able to start then. What you couldnt know on the morning that you walked through is that, for days through the summer, there was a series of riots in 20 towns and cities across our country. On friday, a man called thomas birley, who was part of a group that attacked a Hotel Housing Asylum seekers, who was described as having a white supremacist mindset, was given the longest sentence so far over 1,000 people have been arrested over this. You said the riots showed there was a societal Black Hole. What did you mean by that . What i meant by that was that the riots, i think, were symbolic of a broken society. Now, im not going to justify for one minute the violence in those riots. They are not capable of justification. They were not protest. They were far right in the main. But underneath that, i think there was a societal Black Hole, a breaking of our society, which we need to mend. The immediate problem was to regain control of the situation, to make sure we had enough police across the country to police on the front line, to make sure we had prosecutors and courts able to process the cases and get people sentenced very quickly. I was really clear that we needed to ensure that if somebody was throwing a rock, a plank, or trying to set fire to a hotel on a saturday or a sunday night, within a week, they ought to be starting a prison sentence. And by and large, difficult though that was, we managed to achieve that, which i think played a big part in bringing order to what was a very dangerous situation. That attempt to set fire to a hotel in rotherham with People Inside was particularly chilling. But do you think the rioters were racists . I think the far right. I think there was racism there. I think it featured differently across the country. I went over to belfast, for example, to talk to the Police Service of northern ireland who had Petrol Bombs thrown at them. And theres No Doubt there was racism there. So, there was racism, far right, but it was totally illegitimate. It is not acceptable in any society. And, yes, i accept that across the country people have strong views abOut things like immigration. I accept that, but im not prepared to tolerate that sort of disorder under any circumstances. Nor will i change Government Policy one bit as a result of that sort of violence. Do you think were a racist country . I dont think were a racist country. I think were a country of decent people, tolerant people. The Real Britain was the people who came Out the day after. In sOuthport, it was incredible. People came Out with their trowels, with their brooms. They cleaned up, they rebuilt. Theyre the real face of britain. And thats the britain that i think is essential to reuniting and bringing this country back together. But do you think that leaders in this country. Perhaps also if you look at what weve seen in germany, also look at whats happened in france, do you think that leaders have been complacent abOut the rise of the far right . I am worried abOut the rise of the far right. I mean, we can see whats happening in germany with the recent elections, see whats happening in france and other countries. And im worried abOut the far right because its the sort of Snake Oil of the easy answer. Im convinced that the answer to it is delivery in government. So, the best argument against the far right, the best argument against the easy answer is to deliver, to bring abOut the change that we promised wed bring abOut. And that change was to improve living standards, so people are better off, to make sure that weve got properly functioning public services, particularly the nhs, and to deal with issues like immigration and crime and sewage. We have to deliver on that. And thats why im utterly focussed on ensuring we can bring abOut that change in the period that weve got in government. Talking, though, abOut people feeling great discontent with the state of this country, many of our viewers will have been appalled notjust by seeing the publication of the report into the Grenfell Fire this week, but also very distressed that, years later, there are still people living in unsafe buildings, many of whom might be watching this morning. Can you tell people who cannot right now sleep easy in their beds when they will have their homes made safe . First, i accept its my duty, duty of this Government And Everybody in a position of responsibility, to make sure they are safe in their home. We will accelerate the programme im frustrated that its going as slowly as it is to deal with the cladding. A lot of that is to find sort of true responsibility and to hold people to account for getting on with the job. The money is there. The intention is there. We need to move more quickly on it. So, by when will people who are watching this, who are living in blocks that are unsafe, will they be able to sleep easy in their beds withOut the fear of a Cladding Fire . Were speeding up the process. I want to get this done as quickly as possible. Each block will be on a different timetable. Im not able to give you an end date, but i can tell you i meant what i said when i responded to the report. I said, this has to be a turning point. It does, and we need to speed that up and get on with it. Forgive me, Prime Minister. During the election campaign, you made great play of how ready you were, how much preparation you had done, how much you were going to walk in this building and get things done. And then today you cant give us a date, a deadline, which is what people want to know. When will they be able to sleep easy in their beds . It is years since the Grenfell Fire. It is years that you had in opposition. Everybody knew this was coming. You cannot be surprised by what this report has come Outwith. And this is abOut people who are, as of this moment, not safe in their own homes. Well, let me acknowledge that this has taken far too long. Seven years. This is not unique. Weve had no end of injustices that have taken very many years to come to any sort of Outcome. And this is not the final Outcome. But you are in charge now. Why cant you give people a date . I accept that, and what comes with being in charge is responsibility. The responsibility to make sure this happens as soon as possible. The first thing that therefore needs to happen, and the deputy Prime Minister is doing this, is going through the books, going through the buildings, identifying where work has been done, where work hasnt been done, whos responsible, and putting in a place to make sure that we can accelerate that as quickly as possible. That work is ongoing. You cant do that in opposition because you simply dont have access to the material. But were on it, were working at pace, and we will bring the same mindset to this as i brought to the disorder, which is get people around the table, make the ask of them. Well, with the disorder, you said you wanted everybody in court within a week. You know, you are the Prime Minister now. Some people would want you to hear. To hear you say, you know what . In a year, everybody will be safe. In two years, everybody will be safe. Whats your ambition on this . Because for years, people, victims of grenfell, their families and people who are in unsafe blocks have heard politicians, for years, promise that they were going to speed it up, promise that they were going to accelerate it. Its exactly the kind of frustration that you yourself say youve heard and you understand. And yet here you are today unable to give them a firm promise. Well, im not going to give a false promise. I think there have been too many of those in the last ia years where people have given numbers and dates which theyve plucked from the sky, which are not meaningful. Im not going to do that. I know that the work is going on to identify what blocks Need Work on, how we accelerate it. The money has been allocated. A lot of this now is identifying and pushing those who are really responsible to do this to do the work that they are required to do. If we need more powers to do that, Well pass those powers. Would you like to see people in jail because of what happened at grenfell . The last thing i want to do is to prejudice any possible cases. Of course, i want the police to complete their investigations and Well give them all the support that they need, and appropriate cases should go through to court. But the worst thing i could do, or anybody could do, for the families, of the bereaved, the survivors, the community, the worst thing we could do is to say or do anything which would prejudice the Outcome of any proceedings, including criminal proceedings. Its been a very eventful few Months already. One of the decisions also that has attracted huge amount of attention and has very much upset some of our viewers is your decision to remove Winter Fuel allowance from the majority of pensioners. As you know, our viewers like to give us questions for politicians. And ray, who voted for you, wrote in to say, i thought i might regret my vote within a year. I certainly didnt think i would regret it by The First decision made by the new government to attack the pensioners, those in this country Who Cannot Go On to strike to show our disgust. What do you say to ray, who voted for you and feels terribly let down by this decision . What i say to ray, and to many people who will have concerns who are watching this and listening to this, is that we were voted in to office to bring abOut change, to make sure we improve living standards, make people feel better off, to improve public services. Nobody thought they were voting for you to take away their Winter Fuel allowance. To deal with crime, deal with immigration and issues like that. I am Absolutely clear in my own mind that we cant bring abOut that change if we dont fix the fundamentals and stabilise our economy. Im Absolutely clear, in the same way, laura, as i was four, five years ago when you were interviewing me, and i said, in order for labour to win an election, we have to change the Labour Party. Equally clear in my mind, in order to deliver the change, which we will deliver, we have to fix the foundations now, and thats tough decisions. The first thing we did, The First thing the chancellor did when she walked through the door next door, was to audit the books. What she found was a £22 Billion Black Hole this year. Now, she had a choice. Pretend it isnt there, walk past it, or deal with it. Now i just want to. We said we were going to deal with it. I just want to stop you there. So we have to take tough decisions. I just want to stop you there. On that 22 Billion, i want everybody watching this to know and understand that nearly half of that 22 Billion £9 billion comes from decisions that your government has made to give many public sector workers pay rises above inflation, including Junior Doctors getting 22 of an increase over two years. So, again, when it comes to Winter Fuel allowance, that was a choice. It was a political decision, for the reasons that you say, you want to sort Out the economy, but how can you justify it to viewers who feel like it is an attack on some people whove worked hard all their lives . Theyre not wealthy, they dont have money to spare. And this year, if its cold, theyre going to be looking at the thermostat and wondering if they can pay their bills. Let me take that head on because its a really important point. The last government set up the Pay Review mechanism, as every government does every year, and they set the framework for that. And they knew that the Pay Review recommendations would come back. What they didnt do was allocate any money at all to the Outcome. Now, that is not a good way to approach pay settlements. Of course, there was a number allocated. Theyjust didnt put it on the books. Can i deal with the second point . Because i think it is important, on Winter Fuel allowance, this is really tough and i do get that its tough. Its not easy, and no Prime Minister wants to take a decision like this. But the Winter Fuel payments are now to be targeted. They were untargeted before, and i think everybody thought that wasnt a particularly good system, so it needed to be targeted. Obviously those most in need will continue to get the payment. All of those on Pension Credit will get the payment, and we want to get as many people onto Pension Credit as we can. We want to align Housing Benefit with Pension Credit, something that wasnt done by the last government, which will improve the situation. And of course, this is really important, by ensuring were fixing the foundations, by ensuring weve got economic stability, something thats been missing for the last few years, we can Absolutely commit, and we do, to the triple lock. And what that means, laura, which is really important, is that the increase in the State Pension will Outstrip any loss for pensioners of the Winter Fuel payment pension. Of the Winter Fuel payment. So that is really, really important. Pensioners like everybody else have been living with inflation. But weve still got other things to talk abOut. But i just want to briefly ask. But laura, i mean, what you say there is really important because talking to many pensioners in the last two or 3 years, the things that have hit them most and hardest are inflation, because it got Out of control in the last government, energy bills, because the steps that were needed to be taken years ago werent taken, and the cost of living. Im determined that no pensioner will ever be put through that before. Thats why were fixing the foundations now, tough though that may be. And for some of your mps the decision is is is too tough. And for some of your mps the decision is too tough. Some of them are deeply worried abOut it. If a Labour Mp votes against you this week when Winter Fuel is debated in the house of commons, will you suspend them or kick them Out of the party . Well, that will be a matter for the Chief Whip and Well assess that. You must have a view. Were going into a vote. Im glad were having a vote, because i think its very important for parliament to speak on this. But every Labour Mp was elected in on the same mandate as i was, which would deliver the change that we need for the country over the time weve got in office. I am Absolutely convinced that we will only deliver that change, im Absolutely determined we will, if we do the difficult things now. I know theyre unpopular, i know theyre difficult, of course theyre tough choices. But its a bit like, i dont know, building a house. If you know your foundations are rotten, if you know youve got damp or cracks, you can paint over it and pretend that youve got a beautiful new house, and within six Months it all falls apart. Or you can say, were going to strip it down, were going to fix the foundations. And what then will happen . This is where the hope is there. What then happens is youve got a much better house at The End of the exercise, a country built to last. And thats what im determined were going to bring abOut in the time that weve got in office. I know theres a note there. You said, you know, its unpopular. Are you willing to be unpopular . Were going to have to be unpopular. Tough decisions are tough decisions. Popular decisions arent tough, theyre easy. When we talk abOut tough decisions, im talking abOut tough decisions, the things the last government ran away from, that governments traditionally run away from. Im convinced that because theyve run away from difficult decisions, we havent got the change we need for the country. And because im so determined to bring abOut that change, ill do the tough things and ill do them early to make sure that we can bring abOut the change that we need. So im not going to apologise for this, but i do recognise how difficult it is for some people. I do recognise for pensioners its really hard, for some pensioners here, but of course they do rely on the nhs, they do rely on public transport, so these things arent completely divorced. And with the triple lock, what i can guarantee for the State Pension is that the increase under this government will Outstrip any reduction in the Winter Fuel payment. You mentioned the nhs there. Now, your government asked lord darzi, a very eminent surgeon, to look quickly into what was really going on in the nhs. The reports coming Out this thursday, but can you share any of what he has found already . Yes, ican. I asked him, hes an eminent surgeon, huge experience, i asked him to do a raw and honest assessment of the nhs, a diagnosis if you like. Hes been really clear that the nhs is broken but not beaten. And the reason he identifies, just to rattle through them withOut spending much time on them, is because of the money that was taken Out of the nhs, particularly in the early years of the coalition, 2010 onwards. The lansley reforms, which were hopelessly misconceived, took a lot of money and had to be then reversed. And then, of course, covid on top of all that which has put us in this awful position for the nhs. His diagnosis, my conclusion is, the only way Out of this now is reform. I think only a Labour Government can reform the nhs, and therefore we will use his diagnosis as the platform for the reform that we now need to carry Out in relation to the nhs. I promised wed get the nhs on its feet again, but i also promised id make It Fit for the future. And this is the diagnosis, if you like, the platform that allows us to properly understand the state of the nhs and why its in that place, but also when it comes to technology, when it comes to empowering gps and preventative measures, to look at how were now going to reform the nhs so that we can notjust look proudly. The Labour Party always looks back proudly and says we created the Nhs 75 Plus years ago, weve had a Fantastic Nhs in many respects. What i want to ensure is that in 75 years, people look back again and say weve still got a Fantastic Nhs because of the work the 2024 Labour Government did. But again, isnt part of this actually quite a clear political strategy . It is going to be another moment when the new government is saying, look, look how terrible things are. Look at our inheritance. Arent you managing peoples expectations . And if its all this Doom And Gloom, how can you expect people to feel inspired or hopeful abOut what you might be able to achieve . Well, two things there. Firstly, yes, weve got lord darzis analysis. I dont think anybody watching this is going to be surprised by his conclusion. I dont think theyre going to say, Well, when i went to a e, it was perfect, i was in and Out in record time. Everybody watching this who has used the nhs or relatives have know that its broken. They know that its broken. That is unforgivable, the state of our nhs. Now, i dont think anybody could say thats sort ofjust us claiming or performative inheritance. If theres one thing this country knows, its the last government broke the nhs. Ourjob now, through lord darzi, is properly understand how that came abOut and bring abOut the reforms, starting with The First steps, the 40,000 extra appointments. But weve got to do the hard yards of reform as Well. And as i say, i think its only a Labour Government that can do the reform that our nhs needs, and Well start on thatjourney. 0k. Two more things that i want to briefly ask you abOut. Youre expected to go to the White House next week. Now, its no secret that your decision to suspend some Arms Sales to israel has not gone down very Well across the atlantic. It has not made the Uk Government very popular with its closest ally, the united states. Youre wrong abOut that. So you say the us agrees with it . Weve been talking to the us. Weve been talking to the us beforehand and afterwards. And theyre very clear that theyve got a different legal system and they understand the decision that weve taken. So thats very clear. The reason im actually going and having the visit is not abOut that at all. Its because the situation in ukraine is becoming ever more pressing, as is the situation in the middle east. Ive obviously had a number of discussions with President Biden, both in person and on the phone, and with other allies, france, germany, italy, nato allies, abOut the tactical decisions we have to make in relation to ukraine and the middle east. And weve coordinated a lot of our messaging, coordinated our action, as youd expect. But what i also want to have the opportunity is for a more strategic discussion abOut the next few Months in relation to ukraine and in relation to the middle east. So its that more strategic discussion that will be the central focus of the visit next week. You had to defend President Biden when his health was deteriorating. Are you relieved and excited abOut Kamala Harris as the new nominee . The democrats are your sister party. Well, theyre our sister party. And of course, its, you know, really good to see the election developing as it is in the us. Ill be very clear, as the Prime Minister of the united kingdom, i will deal with whoever the american people elect in as their president. But i think its very important to remember, particularly for ukraine and for the middle east, the next few weeks and Months are critically important, and therefore its important for me to speak to President Biden abOut our shared response, the response of our allies to the pressing immediate issues, but also to the more strategic long term issues. And thats why im going on both of those fronts to have that discussion, ukraine and the middle east. Sounds very much like youre hinting at a significant increase in the level of support for ukraine, or perhaps giving them the explicit permission they want to use some weapons provided by their allies into russia. Well, we have increased the support were giving ukraine since weve been in office. Thats not a criticism of the last government. I supported the last government when i was in opposition, and im not now going to suggest that they didnt put the support in we needed for ukraine. I supported them then, i support what they did. We need to now take this on. Weve put more support in in terms of capability. In relation to specific capabilities, then youll understand im not going to get into a discussion abOut that on live television. But of course i want to make sure that we give ukraine the support that it needs for as long as it needs it. As you said at the beginning, this is also now your home as Well as the seat of government. And our viewers wont forgive me if i dont ask you a couple of questions abOut that, if i mayjust quickly. One of the things youve done to make it more comfortable is take down the portrait of Margaret Thatcher that was put there by Gordon Brown, a labour Prime Minister. Is that not a bit petty . Was she really making you feel uncomfortable staring down at you in the study . Well, The First thing is Gordon Brown didnt actually hang it in the study. It was hanging somewhere, it was commissioned and was hanging somewhere else. I think it was David Cameron that brought it into the study. I use the study for quietly reading most afternoons, where ive got to have a difficult paper that i need to. And ijust. This is not actually abOut Margaret Thatcher at all. I dont like images and pictures of people staring down. Ive had it all my life. When i was a lawyer, i used to have sort of pictures ofjudges. I dont like it. I like landscapes, so this is my study, its my private place where i go to work. I didnt want a picture of anyone. Its a picture of landscapes. As a lawyer people tried to persuade me that i needed Pictures Ofjudges Staring at me the whole time. I didnt like it. I dont like it any more if theyre politicians. There isnt any politician staring at me in my study where ijust get on with the work i need to get on with. Its unusualfor a politician not to like people looking at them, whether theyre in real life or in portrait form. People have different views. In our house now, in our flat, you wont. You know, some people have their mantelpieces full of pictures of themselves with world leaders. None of that in ours. Not even in the toilet where people traditionally also put it. All ive got is pictures of the kids, the cats now, etc. I might tolerate Thierry Henry on the wall, but thats abOut as far as i go. And youve gone there with the cats. So weve gone there with the siberian kitten, which has nowjoined the family, called prince. Well, that is the news that the nation wanted to know. But also a Bbc Listener actually has got in touch, though, abOut the cats. They were quite upset that you didnt listen to your childrens pleas to get a german shepherd dog. Mike has written in to say i cant get past the U Turn on the dog. What was he thinking . The nation needs to know, why no dog . Well, it was a long summer of negotiations, laura. I said we would settle it. Wed get in the room with the kids and they determined that wed got this siberian kitten, which is lovely, by the way. Its sort of white with blue eyes. It was part of the deal that they negotiated for moving into Downing Street because this, you know, joking apart, this change has a profound impact on our children. And thats the. People asked me before the election, you know, what am i most worried abOut . And i always said the impact on my children. We, as you know, dont have any photographs taken with them. We dont name them. But i have to acknowledge this is a big move for them. And therefore, negotiating a fantastic kitten called prince was part of the deal that they extracted from me. Prime minister, thank you very much indeed for giving us your time this morning and indulging our viewers eager interest in the Downing Street pets, but were grateful for your time. Thank you very much indeed. Let us know what you thought. Whether that is abOut the client or the very serious things you discussed. The cat. Kuenssberg bbc. Co. Uk as ever. Serious issues, what did you pick Out . Doubling down on Winter Fuel and what is surprising, my readers are really angry, especially that Train Drivers got paid Out and that is the thing that got the Letters Flooding in, but notjust my newspaper, across the board, people are really angry. A political choice they made and it was not in the manifesto. D0 they made and it was not in the manifesto they made and it was not in the manifesto. , i, ~ , i, manifesto. Do you think they are handuna manifesto. Do you think they are handling it manifesto. Do you think they are handling it in manifesto. Do you think they are handling it in a manifesto. Do you think they are handling it in a way manifesto. Do you think they are handling it in a way they manifesto. Do you think they are handling it in a way they may manifesto. Do you think they are i handling it in a way they may come to regret . People with long political memories, they might remember an early decision from Gordon Brown to give a very small increase in Benefit Payments at that point and it did sour the atmosphere in some respect, do you think i might come to regret this . Quite ossibl. Might come to regret this . Quite possibly when might come to regret this . Quite possibly. When it might come to regret this . Quite possibly. When it gets might come to regret this . Quite possibly. When it gets to might come to regret this . Si Ts possibly. When it gets to winter, front pages around the country, old age pensioners dying, that is clearly a worry for them. Do you think in terms clearly a worry for them. Do you think in terms of clearly a worry for them. Do you think in terms of the clearly a worry for them. Do you think in terms of the majority i clearly a worry for them. Do you i think in terms of the majority they have got, is there already a situation where number 10 are hard hats on, we are going to charge forward whatever the party thinks . The privilege of a huge majority can also be quite hard to handle. Still eole in also be quite hard to handle. St ll people in Downing Street that think it is more important they are seen to stay the course and not to U Turn and not to be seen to be buffeted by public opinion, because they are so convinced Out in the right thing. I also think have a bit of time on the huns, Big Set of elections and a couple of years time, but as long as they are quick abOut it, they think they have time to make unpopular choices and come back and prove to people the measures they have taken have changed things for the better time on their hands. They risk Unpopularity Being picked on and they risk people. Interested to hear Keir Starmer Out-hope'>Talk AbOut Hope very briefly, a lot of Doom And Gloom, very little abOut what it is for. Unless they get better at expending why the pain has been inflicted on people and convincing it is worth it, it will be tough to come back from. Unusual to a politician be tough to come back from. Unusual to a politician say, be tough to come back from. Unusual to a politician say, we be tough to come back from. Unusual to a politician say, we will be tough to come back from. Unusual to a politician say, we will have be tough to come back from. Unusual to a politician say, we will have to to a politician say, we will have to be unpopular. Usually it is please like me, i need your vote. Very deliberate. Like me, i need your vote. Very deliberate deliberate. The thing abOut unpopular deliberate. The thing abOut unpopular decisions, deliberate. The thing abOut unpopular decisions, you i deliberate. The thing abOut i unpopular decisions, you have deliberate. The thing abOut unpopular decisions, you have to make unpopular decisions, you have to make the unpopular decisions, you have to make the right unpopular decisions, you have to make the right unpopular unpopular decisions, you have toi make the right unpopular decision unpopular decisions, you have to make the right unpopular decision in the winter make the right unpopular decision in the Winter Fuel make the right unpopular decision in the Winter Fuel allowance make the right unpopular decision in the Winter Fuel allowance feels make the right unpopular decision in the Winter Fuel allowance feels like i the Winter Fuel allowance feels like the Winter Fuel allowance feels like the wrong the Winter Fuel allowance feels like the wrong unpopular the Winter Fuel allowance feels like the wrong unpopular decision. The Winter Fuel allowance feels like i the wrong unpopular decision. There are other the wrong unpopular decision. There are other ways, the wrong unpopular decision. There are other ways, other the wrong unpopular decision. There are other ways, other policies the wrong unpopular decision. There are other ways, other policies to are other ways, other policies to raise are other ways, other policies to raise money, are other ways, other policies to raise money, tax are other ways, other policies to raise money, tax in are other ways, other policies to raise money, tax in particular, i are other ways, other policies to raise money, tax in particular, it would raise money, tax in particular, it would not raise money, tax in particular, it would not be raise money, tax in particular, it would not be popular raise money, tax in particular, it would not be popular in raise money, tax in particular, it would not be popular in every. Raise money, tax in particular, it would not be popular in every sector but they would not be popular in every sector but they could would not be popular in every sector but they could raise would not be popular in every sector but they could raise a would not be popular in every sector but they could raise a lot would not be popular in every sector but they could raise a lot more but they could raise a lot more money but they could raise a lot more money we but they could raise a lot more money. We have but they could raise a lot more money. We have seen but they could raise a lot more money. We have seen some i but they could raise a lot more i money. We have seen some quite hysterical money. We have seen some quite hysterical headlines money. We have seen some quite hysterical headlines in money. We have seen some quite hysterical headlines in the money. We have seen some quite hysterical headlines in the right. Hysterical headlines in the right wing hysterical headlines in the right Wing Press hysterical headlines in the right Wing Press this hysterical headlines in the right Wing Press this morning hysterical headlines in the right Wing Press this morning abOut. Hysterical headlines in the right. Wing press this morning abOut that very subject. Wing press this morning abOut that very subject, ideas Wing Press this morning abOut that very subject, ideas being Wing Press this morning abOut that very subject, ideas being posited i very subject, ideas being posited that maybe very subject, ideas being posited that maybe there very subject, ideas being posited that maybe there is very subject, ideas being posited that maybe there is going very subject, ideas being posited that maybe there is going to very subject, ideas being posited that maybe there is going to be i very subject, ideas being posited| that maybe there is going to be a mansion that maybe there is going to be a Mansion Tax. That maybe there is going to be a Mansion Tax, some that maybe there is going to be a Mansion Tax, some inheritance. That maybe there is going to be a. Mansion tax, some inheritance tax. That maybe there is going to be a Mansion Tax, some inheritance tax. I think Mansion Tax, some inheritance tax. I think it Mansion Tax, some inheritance tax. I think it is Mansion Tax, some inheritance tax. I think it is an Mansion Tax, some inheritance tax. I think it is an absolute Mansion Tax, some inheritance tax. I think it is an absolute given think it is an absolute given capital think it is an absolute Given Capital Gains think it is an absolute given capital Gains Tax think it is an absolute given capital Gains Tax is think it is an absolute given capital Gains Tax is going i think it is an absolute given capital Gains Tax is going toi think it is an absolute given i capital Gains Tax is going to go think it is an absolute given capital Gains Tax is going to go up. I do capital Gains Tax is going to go up. I do not capital Gains Tax is going to go up. I do not think capital Gains Tax is going to go up. I do not think it capital Gains Tax is going to go up. I do not think it is capital Gains Tax is going to go up. I do not think it is a capital Gains Tax is going to go up. I do not think it is a bad capital Gains Tax is going to go up. I do not think it is a bad thing i do not think it is a bad thing either i do not think it is a bad thing either i i do not think it is a bad thing either. I think i do not think it is a bad thing either. I think if i do not think it is a bad thing either. I think if they i do not think it is a bad thing either. I think if they bit i do not think it is a bad thing either. I think if they bit the i either. I think if they bit the bullet either. I think if they bit the bullet he either. I think if they bit the bullet. He uses either. I think if they bit the bullet. He uses the either. I think if they bit the| bullet. He uses the phrase either. I think if they bit the bullet. He uses the phrase several times bullet. He uses the phrase several times since bullet. He uses the phrase several times since he bullet. He uses the phrase several times since he has bullet. He uses the phrase several times since he has been bullet. He uses the phrase several times since he has been in bullet. He uses the phrase several times since he has been in office times since he has been in office abOut times since he has been in office abOut those times since he has been in office abOut those with times since he has been in office abOut those with the times since he has been in office abOut those with the broadest i abOut those with the broadest shoulders abOut those with the broadest shoulders paying abOut those with the broadest shoulders paying the abOut those with the broadest shoulders paying the burden, | abOut those with the broadest i shoulders paying the burden, for abOut those with the broadest shoulders paying the burden, for me that means shoulders paying the burden, for me that means something shoulders paying the burden, for me that means something like shoulders paying the burden, for me that means something like a shoulders paying the burden, for me that means something like a wealthl that means something like a wealth tax, that means something like a wealth tax. Mansion that means something like a wealth tax, Mansion Tax that means something like a wealth tax, Mansion Tax is that means something like a wealth tax, Mansion Tax is slightly. That means something like a wealth tax, Mansion Tax is slightly. It tax, Mansion Tax is slightly. It is deliberately. Tax, Mansion Tax is slightly. It is deliberately. And tax, Mansion Tax is slightly. It is deliberately. And old tax, Mansion Tax is slightly. It is deliberately. And old thing, i is deliberately. And old thing, dragged is deliberately. And old thing, dragged back is deliberately. And old thing, dragged back Out, is deliberately. And old thing, dragged back Out, makes is deliberately. And old thing, dragged back Out, makes you. Is deliberately. And old thing,. Dragged back Out, makes you think is deliberately. And old thing, dragged back Out, makes you think of the hammer dragged back Out, makes you think of the Hammer House dragged back Out, makes you think of the Hammer House of dragged back Out, makes you think of the Hammer House of horror, dragged back Out, makes you think of the Hammer House of horror, going i dragged back Out, makes you think of| the Hammer House of horror, going to be creepy the Hammer House of horror, going to be creepy and the Hammer House of horror, going to be creepy and weird, the Hammer House of horror, going to be creepy and weird, but the Hammer House of horror, going to be creepy and weird, but a the Hammer House of horror, going to be creepy and weird, but a wealth be creepy and weird, but a wealth tax, be creepy and weird, but a wealth tax. Very be creepy and weird, but a wealth tax, very straightforward, be creepy and weird, but a wealth tax, very straightforward, i , be creepy and weird, but a wealth tax, very straightforward, i , for| tax, very straightforward, i , for people tax, very straightforward, i , for people with tax, very straightforward, i , for people with assets tax, very straightforward, i , for people with assets of tax, very straightforward, i , for people with assets of over tax, very straightforward, i , for people with assets of over 10 people with assets of over 10 million. People with assets of over 10 million, that people with assets of over 10 million, that would people with assets of over 10 million, that would affect people with assets of over 10 i million, that would affect less people with assets of over 10 million, that would affect less than 1 million, that would affect less than i of million, that would affect less than i of uk million, that would affect less than i of Uk Households million, that would affect less than i of Uk Households and million, that would affect less than i of Uk Households and would million, that would affect less than i i of Uk Households and would raise over 15 i of Uk Households and would raise over 15 billion, i of Uk Households and would raise over 15 billion, not i of Uk Households and would raise over 15 billion, not the 1 of Uk Households and would raise over 15 billion, not the mere 1 of Uk Households and would raise over 15 billion, not the mere 1. 5 over 15 billion, not the mere 1. 5 billion over 15 billion, not the mere 1. 5 billion they over 15 billion, not the mere 1. 5 billion they are over 15 billion, not the mere 1. 5 billion they are expecting over 15 billion, not the mere 1. 5 billion they are expecting to over 15 billion, not the mere 1. 5. Billion they are expecting to save on the billion they are expecting to save on the winter billion they are expecting to save on the Winter Fuel billion they are expecting to save on the Winter Fuel allowance. Billion they are expecting to savel on the Winter Fuel allowance. Bier . On the Winter Fuel allowance. Very difficult to know on the Winter Fuel allowance. Very difficult to know where on the Winter Fuel allowance. Difficult to know where figures might land up but interesting, victoria, how do you think they are handling this political. The narrative . Very clear, willing to be unpopular and do that stuff earlier on, with the hope and a couple of years the country feels different, people feel better off, public services starting to improve. Do you think it is plausible they will be able to stick to it . Able to stick to it . They cannot wait for the able to stick to it . They cannot wait for the next able to stick to it . They cannot wait for the next election able to stick to it . They cannot wait for the next election in able to stick to it . They cannot| wait for the next election in five years wait for the next election in five years to wait for the next election in five years to bring people good news and i do years to bring people good news and i do think years to bring people good news and i do think it years to bring people good news and i do think it is part of the plan, two, i do think it is part of the plan, two. Three i do think it is part of the plan, two, three years of Hard Labour until two, three years of Hard Labour until they two, three years of Hard Labour until they get to something positive. Maybe we will see a more positive positive. Maybe we will see a more positive vision at the Labour Party conference positive vision at the Labour Party conference conference. Interesting talking abOut his inheritance, conference. Interesting talking abOut his inheritance, we conference. Interesting talking abOut his inheritance, we havei conference. Interesting talking abOut his inheritance, we have heard so much blame being chucked at the tories, do you think that can last for that long . You have been in charge not even 100 days, legitimate to point the finger for some time, but how long do you think the public will accept that, pippa . Will accept that, pippa . Already Keir Starmers will accept that, pippa . Already Keir Starmers popularity will accept that, pippa . Already| Keir Starmers Popularity Ratings were not ytickly strong at the beginning and they have obviously declined further. Particularly strong. People voted for change, they also voted to check Out the tories, ratherthan they also voted to check Out the tories, rather than any great love for the Labour Party. In the Labour Party has inflicted quite a lot of painful decisions on them. There are positive things they have done very quickly, delivering on some promises, we already have a bill in the commons to Nationalise Railways for example, very popular policy, Keir Starmers handling of the riots improved his standing among some sceptics abOut law and order. Beginning of planning reform, very complicated, takes a long time. Talked a lot abOut housing. It looks like he has Result Thejunior Doctor strikes. There is a story to tell but were not hearing any of it. We are hearing the Doom And Gloom and very little. Stick with us, it will be worth it. Notjust abOut the sentiment and public mood, already little fears and some in his own party that the single biggest ambition they have as great and it could to impact Consumer And Business confidence responding if the government talks it down. Brute Business Confidence responding if the government talks it down. We are aroin to the government talks it down. We are going to hear the government talks it down. We are going to hear from the government talks it down. We are going to hear from the the government talks it down. We are going to hear from The First the government talks it down. We are going to hear from The First of the government talks it down. We are going to hear from The First of the going to hear from The First of the conservatives who wants to take on the leadership. How do you think they are managing the horror of opposition so far . They are managing the horror of opposition so far . Probably quite a shock to than opposition so far . Probably quite a shock to than they opposition so far . Probably quite a shock to than they do opposition so far . Probably quite a shock to than they do not opposition so far . Probably quite a shock to than they do not get opposition so far . Probably quite a shock to than they do not get the L Shock to than they do not get the airtime shock to than they do not get the airtime they used to get. The most worrying airtime they used to get. The most worrying thing for them as they are taking worrying thing for them as they are taking such worrying thing for them as they are taking such a long time to make this decision taking such a long time to make this decision so taking such a long time to make this decision so when the budget comes Out in decision so when the budget comes Out in october they will still have rishi Out in october they will still have rishi sunak, quite a bit across the other rishi sunak, quite a bit across the other side rishi sunak, quite a bit across the other side rather than a new leader which other side rather than a new leader which to other side rather than a new leader which to me other side rather than a new leader which to me seems nonsensical. We can aet which to me seems nonsensical. Can get on which to me seems nonsensical. , can get on with some of the Debate Evenif can get on with some of the debate even if the result is not until november. While labour settles in, the conservatives contemplate the horror of opposition, on the hunt for a new leader to follow their crashing defeat. In the next few weeks, Well talk to the contenders vying for the job. Tom tugendhat� s The First. He served in Iraq And Afghanistan. He was the Security Minister and is the mp for tonbridge in kent. Welcome to the studio. Great to have you with us. First one to front up. You as a party have had a few Months to do some soul searching, why did it go so badly wrong . The fundamental it go so badly wrong . The fundamental Thing It Go so badly wrong . Iie fundamental thing is it go so badly wrong . Iie fundamental thing is we lost the trust of the british people and we can look at individual policies that failed, failing to deliver on migration, Sin Taxes go up despite some of thus not supporting tax rises on national insurance seeing taxes go up. What we lost is the ability to have confidence of the ability to have confidence of the british people. Im standing because we need to return the party to the service of the british people, of a leadership fundamental to rebuilding trust, and we need to act on the promises we make so we actually deliver. Truth . Act on the promises we make so we actually deliver. Actually deliver. Why are you the erson to actually deliver. Why are you the person to do actually deliver. Why are you the person to do that . Actually deliver. Why are you the person to do that . What actually deliver. Why are you the person to do that . What would i actually deliver. Why are you the I Person to do that . What would you actually change . In reality, what would it mean . Would it mean . Look at my track record. I have would it mean . Look at my track record. I have spent would it mean . Look at my track record. I have spent 25 would it mean . Look at my track record. I have spent 25 years record. I have spent 25 years serving our country in various different ways, i promise to serve the late queen in 2000 and i served on operations in Iraq And Afghanistan in the military. I sat again in parliament standing empty dictators in Russia And China standing up to dictators. I got sanctioned. Under minister, changing the law, and it has had a really important effect. We arrested and charged in my time as Security Minister more russian and chinese agents in the uk than in the previous decade. Track record of actually delivering. Previous decade. Track record of actually delivering. What would you chan. E actually delivering. What would you change abOut actually delivering. What would you change abOut your actually delivering. What would you change abOut your party . Actually delivering. What would you change abOut your party . Some actually delivering. What would you i change abOut your party . Some would say we will be Out for ages, plenty of time to work Out what we want to do. Someone said to me, you will probably get a new leader, get someone else in a couple of years because it will be such a mess for so long. Because it will be such a mess for so lonu. W,. , because it will be such a mess for solon. , , so long. Extraordinary opportunity for the conservative so long. Extraordinary opportunity for the conservative party so long. Extraordinary opportunity for the conservative party in so long. Extraordinary opportunity for the conservative party in the i for the conservative party in the country to rethink what it is we are offering. We need a conservative revolution in four years time to return the country to the service of the people. We need to make sure the economy actually works for people delivering a higher wage, low migration economy, notjust fighting migration economy, not just fighting enough migration economy, notjust fighting enough foreigners from the White Cliffs and pretending you can fix. Notjust shOuting at foreigners. Do you think that is what your party was doing previously, shOuting at foreigners . Was doing previously, shOuting at foreiuners . ,. ,. ,. , foreigners . There is a fundamental decision we foreigners . There is a fundamental decision we need foreigners . There is a fundamental decision we need to foreigners . There is a fundamental decision we need to make, foreigners . There is a fundamental decision we need to make, Do Foreigners . There is a fundamental decision we need to make, do we l foreigners . There is a fundamental decision we need to make, do we want this economy to work for people . Actually to see the blood of the Economy Flooding again so you get the intergenerational fairness, Economy Flooding again so you get the intergenerationalfairness, the link between the energy of the young and the assets of the old, geography and the assets of the old, geography and generations connected. I and the assets of the old, geography and generations connected. I wonder also, ou and generations connected. I wonder also. You say and generations connected. I wonder also. You say the and generations connected. I wonder also. You say the party and generations connected. I wonder also, you say the Party Needs and generations connected. I wonder also, you say the Party Needs a also, you say the Party Needs a rethink, if you had a rethink abOut some of your principles, a few years ago, this is what you said abOut the European Convention on Human Rights, big treaty written in the aftermath of World War ii, he said it was an amazing piece of drafting crafted by lawyers in the aftermath of the second World War, Well landmark piece of legal work, many decades ago. But in this leadership campaign, he started saying he might be willing to leave the convention which some people on the right of your party want, what has changed . In 2013 before i write this i was saying we needed to change bits of it, Out'>Opt Out of bits of it, derogation, still stands, this was an extraordinary piece of legal work written in the aftermath of the fascist regime dominating the whole of europe. The lawyers did an enormous amount of brilliant work. What has happened since then has 80 years of change. Things have evolved. The lawyers drafted in various changes we could Out'>Opt Out of, derogation. I have been arguing since 2013, The First thing i did when i left the army was to argue we need to Out'>Opt Out. When i left the army was to argue we need to Out'>Opt Out. Need to Out'>Opt Out. 2024, our viewers and conservative need to Out'>Opt Out. 2024, our viewers and conservative Party Need to Out'>Opt Out. 2024, our viewers and conservative party members need to Out'>Opt Out. 2024, our viewers i and conservative party members many watching this morning will want to know are you saying to them vote for you to the tory leader and you would campaign to leave the convention on Human Rights . Are you actuallyjust flirting with that idea, has plenty of conservatives have done, maybe we might tweak it . I of conservatives have done, maybe we might tweak it . Might tweak it . I want to write now dero. Ate might tweak it . I want to write now derogate from might tweak it . I want to write now derogate from certain might tweak it . I want to write now derogate from certain aspects might tweak it . I want to write now derogate from certain aspects of i might tweak it . I want to write now| derogate from certain aspects of the European Convention of Human Rights. To leave parts of it. The french and other countries do it. We need to reform it because it has become dynamic, and it has changed. If we really cannot get the reforms, we need to be prepared to leave, but prepared means doing the work in advance. It is not something we can tear off the band and pretend it has no consequences. It underpins many other treaties and we need to be ready. My commitment is we will be ready, we will do the reforms, the derogation, and if they do not work, in order to keep the british people safe, i will always do what is necessary. Safe, i will always do what is necessary safe, i will always do what is necessa. , ,. , necessary. The problem is people who follow conservative necessary. The problem is people who follow Conservative Politics necessary. The problem is people who follow Conservative Politics closely follow Conservative Politics closely would never have had you done a somebody who would have wanted to leave the European Convention on Human Rights if push came to shove. In some people might raise their eyebrows and think you are saying this now because you know it is the kind of thing some conservative party members like to hear because you are trying to be elected as the next leader. You are trying to be elected as the next leader next leader. There are many different next leader. There are many different positions next leader. There are many different positions in next leader. There are many different positions in the different positions in the conservative party, as you know, and this is something i have been consistent on that 11 years. I am afraid i was not. Consistent on that 11 years. I am afraid i was not. Afraid i was not. They havent been paying afraid i was not. They havent been paying attention . Afraid i was not. They havent been paying attention . I afraid i was not. They havent been paying attention . I was. Afraid i was not. They havent i been paying attention . I was not alannin been paying attention . I was not planning this been paying attention . I was not planning this interview been paying attention . I was not planning this interview 11 been paying attention . I was not planning this interview 11 years. Planning this interview 11 years ago, something i have been writing, you can read it in policy exchange, so this is something i have been completely consistent on for a long time. ~. ,. ,. , time. With all of the contenders, we willt the time. With all of the contenders, we will try the old time. With all of the contenders, we will try the Old Chestnut time. With all of the contenders, we will try the Old Chestnut of time. With all of the contenders, we will try the Old Chestnut of getting. Will try the Old Chestnut of getting yes and no answers from politicians. If you become leader and if you get your ultimate ambition which of course would be to be Prime Minister. Course would be to be Prime Minister. ,. , minister. Let us be clear, the urose minister. Let us be clear, the purpose of minister. Let us be clear, the purpose of being minister. Let us be clear, the purpose of being leader minister. Let us be clear, the purpose of being leader is minister. Let us be clear, the purpose of being leader is to i minister. Let us be clear, the I Purpose of being leader is to have the four years to reform the party to make sure you are ready to change the country. If to make sure you are ready to change the country the country. If you got your dream, would ou the country. If you got your dream, would you bring the country. If you got your dream, would you bring back the country. If you got your dream, would you bring back the the country. If you got your dream, would you bring back the rwanda i would you bring back the Rwanda Scheme . ,. , scheme . You need a deterrent. I cannot predict scheme . You need a deterrent. I cannot predict whether scheme . You need a deterrent. I cannot predict whether It Scheme . You need a deterrent. I cannot predict whether it will i scheme . You need a deterrent. I cannot predict whether it will be l cannot predict whether it will be Rwanda Or Something else. The germans might have taken on the capacity of rwanda. We need a deterrent, as italy does, as germany is planning. Yes deterrent, as italy does, as germany is lannin. ,. ,. , deterrent, as italy does, as germany is planning is planning. Yes or no, would it be brouaht is planning. Yes or no, would it be brought back . Is planning. Yes or no, would it be brought back . Impossible is planning. Yes or no, would it be brought back . Impossible to i is planning. Yes or no, would it be l brought back . Impossible to answer for our brought back . Impossible to answer for your time brought back . Impossible to answer for your time question, brought back . Impossible to answer for your time question, forgive i brought back . Impossible to answer for your time question, forgive me. | for your time question, forgive me. Do you think too many people go to university . I think apprenticeships are very important. I cannot stand to see this enormous transfer of debt from business to the individual we have seen over 20 years. Business to the individual we have seen over 20 years. Thats why it is an interesting seen over 20 years. Thats why it is an interesting question, seen over 20 years. Thats why it is an interesting question, due seen over 20 years. Thats why it is an interesting question, due to i seen over 20 years. Thats why it is an interesting question, due to be l an interesting question, due to be people go to university . We an interesting question, due to be people go to university . People go to university . We need more people people go to university . We need more people having people go to university . We need more people having tertiary i more people having Tertiary Education in many ways, whether it is university or apprenticeships, but i would rather see more apprenticeships. But i would rather see more apprenticeships. But i would rather see more aurenticeshis. ~. , apprenticeships. Would you be happy to have a full apprenticeships. Would you be happy to have a full university apprenticeships. Would you be happy to have a full university students i to have a full university students for that universities are private businesses and they should be able to recruit and support if they do. So government should back off trying to educate people to do . Government should be supporting to educate people to do . Government should be supporting people to educate people to do . Government should be supporting people to to educate people to do . Government should be supporting people to be i should be supporting people to be educated and apprenticeships offer an extraordinary opportunity to be educated and that is what gillian keegan. We educated and that is what gillian keenan. ~. ,. , educated and that is what gillian keenan. ~. ,. , keegan. We are not doing Well in the es keegan. We are not doing Well in the yes or keegan. We are not doing Well in the Yes Or No keegan. We are not doing Well in the Yes Or No. You keegan. We are not doing Well in the Yes Or No. You are keegan. We are not doing Well in the Yes Or No. You are complicated questions . The Yes Or No. You are complicated questions . What the Yes Or No. You are complicated questions . What is the Yes Or No. You are complicated questions . What is the the Yes Or No. You are complicated questions . What is the most i questions . What is the most conservative questions . What is the most conservative think questions . What is the most conservative think abOut i questions . What is the most conservative think abOut you | questions . What is the most l conservative think abOut you in questions . What is the most i conservative think abOut you in one word . I conservative think abOut you in one word . ~. Conservative think abOut you in one word . ~. , conservative think abOut you in one word . ~ w. , word . I think the fact that i am, Ou Word . I think the fact that i am, you know word . I think the fact that i am, you know. Family word . I think the fact that i am, you know. Family is word . I think the fact that i am, you know. Family is the I Word . I think the fact that i am, you know. Family is the mostl you know. Family is the most important thing to me and that is the most conservative thing abOut many of us, as Margaret Thatcher put it, the fact of life are conservative because based on our families, our communities and society, knowing there is a difference between that and the state. ,. , difference between that and the state. ,. ,. Difference between that and the state. ,. , state. Great to have you with us in the studio for state. Great to have you with us in the studio for the state. Great to have you with us in the studio for The First state. Great to have you with us in the studio for The First time, i state. Great to have you with us in the studio for The First time, Tom L the studio for The First time, tom tugendhat, do you think you will still be in it next week . Absolutely. Still be in it next week . Absolutely. Still be in it next week . Absolutel. ~ ,. , ~ still be in it next week . Absolutel. ~ ,. ~ Absolutely. We will see. Thank you very much straight talking, trail blazing, glamorous star not just Kate Winslet, but her latest character, Lee Miller, Model Tumed photographer who snapped some of the most powerful images of World War ii, Including Composing a photo of herself in hitlers bath. Lee tells her incredible story, from a life of opulence in french villas and vogue, to the front line, then discovering the horror of the Concentration Camps at The End of the war. I should warn you, youll see some of those distressing images in a moment. First, Kate Winslet explained why it meant so much to her to tell lees story. You must be Lee Miller. Its a war zone, colonel. Just lee is fine. Just lee. We dont send women to combat. Lee miller was a female photographer who found herself becoming a War Correspondent during the second World War. She was an american woman. She was just an extraordinary Life Force of a woman who threw herself at life, lived it full throttle, even if it meant suffering the consequences and paying an emotional price for hearing witness the things that she experienced. How she came to be in a conflict zone, documenting the truth behind the atrocities of the Nazi Regime for the female readers of british vogue. She was just unbelievable. And we see in the film, its the story of the Creeping Realisation across europe abOut the real horrors of what had happened in the camps during the second World War. She documents for the world to see what had happened in dachau, and what had been seen in some of the camps is the story of the second World War. After the liberation of paris, so many people, particularly back in england, thought, Well, thats it, the war is over, celebration, happy times. No. What abOut all these thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of missing people . It was all being covered up, No One knew. And lee just wouldnt stop and she followed lead after lead after lead, until eventually she found the Train Carriages full of corpses and was one of The First photographers through The Gates of dachau, buchenwald, and photographing the truth behind the atrocities and finding what had happened to those millions of missing people. This is a film abOut a woman. Its not a film abOut a war. Its abOut her internal war with herself and the consequences, the personal price that she paid for putting herself through the challenges of documenting exactly what had happened. Tell me abOut Lee Miller in the bath. So there is an iconic image of Lee Miller taking a bath in hitlers bathtub. So on the same day that she was in dachau concentration camp, she and David Sherman drove to munich and they headed right to hitlers apartment. Probably bribed their way in. And lo and behold, there was a whole other regiment already in there having a party. And yeah, sure, there was a bathroom. There was hot water and a bathtub. And of course they would have a bath. They were filthy, dirty, number one. But of course, as she got in that hath, i can totally see lee with her sense of whimsy and just how brazen she was. My god, that was a damn fine scoop. There was no way she wasnt going to get her good friend, David Sherman of life magazine, to photograph her in that tub. And if you look at the image, whats so amazing abOut it is shes Absolutely posing. She leans forward and she poses like this, and she did say to davie, make sure you frame Out my tits or Well never get it past the censor. You were asked a while ago abOut a scene in the film. And you said that there was a crew, somebody on set had said, oh, you should sit up. And now i know that you said that in the magazine interview. And then, of course, it created headlines because what you had talked abOut was your physical appearance inside a film when you were playing a character. Do you find theres a bit of a trap, because for many years youve been incredibly honest and candid abOut how the body police come forfemale, for women in The Public Eye. And then if you dont say anything, if you dont call it Out, Well, then you tolerate it. But if you do say something, then that creates a story and headlines all of its own. Well, you know, its interesting how much people do like labels for women. And they very much liked them in lees day. And annoyingly, they sort of still do. You know, we slap these labels on women that we just dont have for men. Its Absolutely bizarre to me. It was myjob to be like lee. She wasnt lifting weights and doing pilates. She was eating cheese, bread and drinking wine and not making a big deal of it. So of course her body would be soft, but i think were so used to perhaps not necessarily seeing that and enjoying it. The instinct, weirdly, is to see it and criticise it or comment on it in some way. And people were saying, god, how wonderful. You know, shes saying that she doesnt care abOut her body. I was, you know, talking abOut the character. Its the character that im playing. But of course i dont care. But it was through the conversation abOut playing lee. And i think my point is that as women, you know, we so need to be having that conversation and just celebrating, just being a real shape and being soft and maybe having a few extra rolls. Do you know what . I dont want to look back and go, why did i worry abOut that thing . And so guess what . I dont worry any more, i dont care, im just going to live my life. Im going to enjoy it. Get on with it. Youve got one go around, make the most of it. The last time that we spoke because of your incredible film, which you then, congratulations, got the bafta for, i am ruth, which was a channel four production abOut a family whose lives are turned upside down by Social Media. Do you still, as you said, then look at the Tech Companies and think, Stand Up and do something, you know who you are. I do still think Stand Up and do something. Im just finding it staggering that more isnt being done. Its an extraordinary thing as an actor sometimes when you can just open that door to a conversation, and i was overwhelmed by how much we really did ignite debate. There has been this real upsWell in communities and in fact, entire towns it turns Out in this country, where they are making them Social Media or even smartphone free zones for children under 16. And thats why we made i am ruth is because i was realising that so many people i was coming across and hearing abOut their awful, sad stories, theyjust felt so isolated and alone and shameful, thinking, oh my god, itsjust me. How has this happened to me, to my child . And so i do think its changing and im hoping it will change a lot more but hopefully, you know, little by little, we might get there. Kate, thank you so much. Its great to talk to you again. Thank you, laura, thank you. Im sure we will come back to that issue in the next few Months, i know you care abOut it at home and we talk abOut it a lot in the studio. Victoria, as a female tabloid editor, and the tabloids have changed a lot over the years, it interesting seeing Kate Winslet has someone who has been the eye such a low time saying she doesnt care but clearly frustrated that womens bodies is still a story, why is that the case . ~. , ~ bodies is still a story, why is that the case . ~. , ~. ~. The case . Women like talking abOut other womens the case . Women like talking abOut other womens bodies the case . Women like talking abOut other womens bodies is the case . Women like talking abOut other womens bodies is a the case . Women like talking abOut other womens bodies is a point i i other womens bodies is a point i should say, and Kate Winslet is fantastic, and women should talk abOut their own hang ups and their own bodies. When The Sun did a feature on this, we wrote all abOut Lee Miller and an interview with her Son And Nothing abOut Kate Winslet� s body. It Son And Nothing abOut Kate Winslets bod. , Son And Nothing abOut Kate Winslets bod. ,. , Son And Nothing abOut Kate Winslets bod. , body. It has changed over the years but that frustration body. It has changed over the years but that frustration is body. It has changed over the years but that frustration is a body. It has changed over the years but that frustration is a trap body. It has changed over the years but that frustration is a trap for i but that frustration is a trap for women and some men in The Public Eye are now talked abOut in a way they did not used to be. Plenty of pictures of Love Island contestants in their trunks as there are women in their trunks as there are women in bikinis. , ,. , in bikinis. Probably in my part of olitics, in bikinis. Probably in my part of politics. We in bikinis. Probably in my part of politics, we have in bikinis. Probably in my part of politics, we have written in bikinis. Probably in my part of politics, we have written stories| politics, we have written stories abOut politics, we have written stories abOut robertjenrick politics, we have written stories abOut Robert Jenrick and politics, we have written stories abOut robertjenrick and his use of abOut robertjenrick and his use of a weight abOut robertjenrick and his use of a weight lossjug. Its difficult because a weight lossjug. Its difficult because as the point is made in the interview because as the point is made in the interview there, if you talk abOut it, interview there, if you talk abOut it. Then interview there, if you talk abOut it. Then it interview there, if you talk abOut it, then it becomes a news story, if you dont. It, then it becomes a news story, if you dont, then can you ever challenge you dont, then can you ever challenge what happens . I do think social challenge what happens . I do think Social Media is a huge amount of responsibility for it, i think we will hear responsibility for it, i think we will hear a responsibility for it, i think we will hear a lot more abOut that in my political sphere in the coming years my political sphere in the coming years as my political sphere in the coming years. As parents and users of social years. As parents and users of Social Media get more worried abOut it. Social media get more worried abOut it and Social Media get more worried abOut it. And Social Media companies are publishers it. And Social Media companies are publishers and have responsibility, ithink. Publishers and have responsibility, ithink. And publishers and have responsibility, i think, and i worry very much abOut how much i think, and i worry very much abOut how much of i think, and i worry very much abOut how much of a wild west it is in social how much of a wild west it is in Social Media. Teenage children, all you need Social Media. Teenage children, all you need to Social Media. Teenage children, all you need to do is scroll through x and its you need to do is scroll through x and its coverage of the us election and its coverage of the us election and its and its coverage of the us election and its really alarming. Its a problem and its really alarming. Its a Problem Way beyond how women are characterised in particular media, and its characterised in particular media, and its a characterised in particular media, and its a much broader issue we should and its a much broader issue we should be and its a much broader issue we should be concerned abOut. Yeah, she brinrs u should be concerned abOut. Yeah, she brings up an should be concerned abOut. Yeah, she brings up an extremely should be concerned abOut. Yeah, she brings up an extremely important i brings up an extremely important point brings up an extremely important point at brings up an extremely important point at the brings up an extremely important point at The End brings up an extremely important point at The End of brings up an extremely important point at The End of an brings up an extremely important point at The End of an excellent. Point at The End of an excellent interview. 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Social media, not least because it was one Social Media, not least because it was one of Social Media, not least because it was one of the Social Media, not least because it was one of the drivers Social Media, not least because it was one of the drivers of Social Media, not least because it was one of the drivers of the i Social Media, not least because it was one of the drivers of the riots over was one of the drivers of the riots over the was one of the drivers of the riots overthe summer. Was one of the drivers of the riots over the summer. It was one of the drivers of the riots over the summer. It affects was one of the drivers of the riots over the summer. It affects all. Was one of the drivers of the riots over the summer. It affects all of| over the summer. It affects all of us in over the summer. It affects all of us in so over the summer. It affects all of us in so nrany over the summer. It affects all of us in so many ways, over the summer. It affects all of us in so many ways, it over the summer. It affects all of us in so many ways, it affects i over the summer. It affects all of| us in so many ways, it affects our kids, us in so many ways, it affects our kids. Perfect us in so many ways, it affects our kids, perfect body us in so many ways, it affects our kids, perfect body perception, i us in so many ways, it affects ourj kids, perfect body perception, we also get kids, perfect body perception, we also get the kids, perfect body perception, we also get the bigger kids, perfect body perception, we also get the bigger political also get the bigger political picture also get the bigger political picture affected also get the bigger political picture affected by also get the bigger political picture affected by it also get the bigger political picture affected by it and i also get the bigger political picture affected by it and it| picture affected by it and it affects picture affected by it and it affects the picture affected by it and it affects the Way Picture affected by it and it affects the way we picture affected by it and it affects the way we behavel picture affected by it and it affects the way we behave towards each other affects the way we behave towards each other as affects the way we behave towards each other as a affects the way we behave towards each other as a society. Affects the way we behave towards each other as a society. And affects the way we behave towards each other as a society. And we i affects the way we behave towards i each other as a society. And we have to call each other as a society. And we have to call the each other as a society. And we have to call the social each other as a society. And we have to call the Social Media each other as a society. And we have to call the Social Media companies. To call the Social Media companies to call the Social Media companies to account, to call the Social Media companies to account, because to call the Social Media companies to account, because they to call the Social Media companies to account, because they are i to account, because they are ultimately to account, because they are ultimately responsible, i to account, because they are ultimately responsible, they| to account, because they are i ultimately responsible, they are publishers ultimately responsible, they are publishers as ultimately responsible, they are publishers as you ultimately responsible, they are publishers as you say, ultimately responsible, they are publishers as you say, and i ultimately responsible, they are publishers as you say, and if i ultimately responsible, they are i publishers as you say, and if they are publishing publishers as you say, and if they are publishing hate publishers as you say, and if they are publishing Hate Speech publishers as you say, and if they are publishing Hate Speech and i are publishing Hate Speech and publishing are publishing Hate Speech and Publishing Incitement are publishing Hate Speech and Publishing Incitement to are publishing Hate Speech and i Publishing Incitement to violence, and publishing Publishing Incitement to violence, and publishing racism, Publishing Incitement to violence, and publishing racism, then Publishing Incitement to violence, and publishing racism, then we i Publishing Incitement to violence, i and publishing racism, then we have to deal and publishing racism, then we have to deal with and publishing racism, then we have to deal with that and publishing racism, then we have to deal with that and and publishing racism, then we have to deal with that and they and publishing racism, then we have to deal with that and they need i and publishing racism, then we have to deal with that and they need to i to deal with that and they need to be held to deal with that and they need to be held responsible. To deal with that and they need to be held responsible. fi to deal with that and they need to be held responsible. To deal with that and they need to be held responsible. A final word to ou on be held responsible. A final word to you on that. Be held responsible. A final word to you on that. Do be held responsible. A final word to you on that, do you be held responsible. A final word to you on that, do you feel be held responsible. A final word to you on that, do you feel as be held responsible. A final word to you on that, do you feel as the i you on that, do you feel as the editor of the major print brand, who has more power now . Has more power now . Social Media Com anies has more power now . Social Media Companies versus has more power now . Social Media Companies versus the has more power now . Social Media Companies versus the sound . I has more power now . Social Media L companies versus the sound . Firstly, we are a digital brand as Well. Social Media Companies are incredibly powerful. Its quite worrying that some of the stuff we see on their platforms, we would be shut down if we would allow that to be published on our platform. Its be published on our platform. Its unfair to ask you abOut your boss on air 1 unfair to ask you abOut your boss on air . ,. , unfair to ask you abOut your boss on air . ,. ,. , air i will not answer that Question Air i will not answer that question thank air i will not answer that question thank you i air i will not answer that question thank you for i air i will not answer that i question thank you for being air i will not answer that question thank you for being with us. We question thank you for being with us we would question thank you for being with us. We would love question thank you for being with us. We would love to question thank you for being with us. We would love to hear question thank you for being with us. We would love to hear from i question thank you for being with | us. We would love to hear from you so thank you for getting in touch. Baz in northumberland, i am a 70 year old 0ap. Facing more austerity at my age is cruel and unusual punishment. Christine webster says, labour are breaking all their promises and should be held accountable. Blaming the tories for their decisions doesnt wash. Elena says, impressed by our Prime Minister. He seems honest and clear in his answers. We will be hearing plenty more from him and all politicians in the coming Months. Thank you to all my guests. Thank you to you most of all for watching. Its great to be back on a day when the Prime Minister, in his first big interview in charge in number 10, told us he is going to have to be unpopular to change the country in the way he wants in the longer term. Thats not, of course, a position any politiican wants for long, but along with managing expectations, there are plenty of obstacles obvious ahead, let alone those fabled events which can knock governments off course. Well be here every sunday as the new government beds in and the other parties adjust to their new realities too. Ill be reunited with Paddy Oconnell there he is give us a Wave Hejust abOut he just abOut did it, not very enthusiastically. 0n Bbc sounds on newscast a bit later. You can catch up with anything on iplayer or sign up to our newsletter, of course, too. In the meantime, ill look forward to seeing you next sunday, of course. Same time, same place. Live from london. This is bbc news. The Prime Minister says that his new government is the Prime Minister says that his going to have to be unpopular if it wants to change the country. Israeli emergency services say three civilians have been shot and killed near the Boder Crossing between the West Bank and jordan. Police in the us state of kentucky are hunting for a gunman after several people were shot on an interstate highway. Its the final day of the paris paralympics, with 14 gold medals up for grabs before the Closing Ceremony later today. Aryna sabalenka has won the womens us open, beating the Americanjessica Pegula in straight sets. Hello. In his first major interview since becoming Prime Minister of the uk Keir Starmer has told the bbc the government is going to have to be unpopular to change the country