Of the next America Project at national journal, thank you for both joining us. Here, both the house and the senate have a version of andsecondary education act the school bill, which still has to be decided on, can you give us an update on not only what this act involves but the house and Senate Versions and what you see as what you like and maybe not like . Guest this is like history in the making for us. We have teachers all over the country on the edge of their little seats wondering what is going to happen to no child left untested or originally called the elementary and secondary education ask. We loved it when it had a boring name. When Lyndon Johnson sounded in 1965 as part of the war on poverty and part of the Civil Rights Movement, lets give fores some extra funding tutors, libraries, teacher training and technology. And then in 2002, it happened and in great part of partisan bipartisan fanfare, educators all over the country going, do you realize you are signing something that says 100 scorean children will hit that assisted it possible that is statistically impossible for many kids and they signed it anyway thinking, we will change it before we get to that fatal year of 2014 which just passed us by. Are supposed kids to be above average. Now, we are all in a panic because technically without some little waivers that have been given so that we are all labeled unfairly failed schools, we are in this horrible limbo because there are some things that congress did 12 years ago, 13 years ago. Host so as far as current versions, how does it change or is it different from the original . Guest what we needed and what we were more successful in convincing senators with senator Lamar Alexander and senator patty murray at the lead, we said, you have to do something against this one size its all measures students by standardized test and that is all that matters, but we have to replace that with something that matters. We really do want information. We want under information that we were getting under this game called no child left behind. So we said, we want a dashboard of better indicators. We want multiple measures of success, not just standardized test. And we asked for something that we thought nobody thought we would get. We said, by the way, we would love some indicators of equity, some indicators that the schools ability to give all children the opportunity to learn. What is your classic size like . To have counselors, a school nurse . These are all the kinds of services and support that we want to see in our school. Shouldnt we be measuring how we are doing with that . Host let me let our guest followup with questions. Stephen, you start. Stephen i will go to the heart of the matter with the wonky question on the elementary and secondary education act which is called no child left behind. Then they must wear to most of the people watching. This question has to do with specifically the requirement and the loss that states identify and the laws that states identify that schools are not making progress with certain groups of students and doing something about it. Lobbied hard for an amendment to leave that up to the states essentially and not have a federally required member of schools or set of intervention. During the senate process, there was actually an amendment that almost every democrat supported that keeps that federal hand in, so why did you opposed that and what does it say about kind of the fishers in education policy that your Traditional Democratic allies do not agree with you on this . Guest we made, i think, the strongest case possible about what was the problem we were actually trying to solve with no child left untested, and it was this ranking or labeling of the student or his entire school based on how kids performed on a test score. Are somey, there students who are very bright. I cut sixthgrade and a panic during testing and they are never going to do well. There are other kids who you cannot measure their creativity, their skills and organization, the cuban vacation skills some of these kids are really, really their communication skills. Some of these kids are really, really bright and you are missing other opportunities. , asthat measurement important as all measurements are, are one part of the picture and you made it everything, so that when yous make it a standardized test, you can manipulate that number. A good school can look and a bad goal can look good and that was not helpful. It was too corruptible. As we went in and we were talking to many of our friends on explaining, but what this amendment did buzz it dropped dad what this amendment did was it brought act the bad essence of what was ayp, if you want to get wonky, and i was adequate yearly process which sounds so wonderful Lily Eskelsen garcia except wonderful. Except then you look at, did you meet your quote of students meeting their standard on math test . Justwe were doing was using a target number that could be manipulated, so i think that good people, the same people, by billy, with the same kind of parts that passed it in the first place, they were not educators. They were lawyers, business people, politicians that sit in fewress and very professional educators sit in the halls of congress. We asked them to listen to us, to listen to the people who know what we are talking about, who know the names of our kids and to listen to what sounds really good when someone is trying to sell it to you and really it is hurting kids. And it is limiting what it means to teach and what it means to learn. We were able to convince enough of them that we did not make it back here. One of the groups you were not able to convince was some Civil Rights Group and you broke with them on that and they are saying we need this Accountability Measures to assure that students of color, a growing segment of the student population, are being educated equally. Guest there was no disagreement in terms of we need good information. Absolutely we need good information and we need to hold all of those politicians on the local and state levels who make the major decisions about Education Funding about what does quality look like, what does Service Look Like . We wanted to hold them accountable which is why we were broughtrprised when we our idea for a dashboard that would include Service Support indicators which schools have a library . How many books per student are in that library . Who has the School Breakfast program, a school nurse, a School Counts . That those were the things that we said, if youre going to be looking at the complete picture and you see an indicator that arnaz progressive as we want them to be, shouldnt we look and see if we are giving them everything they need . We heard from our friends in the Civil Rights Community that they thought that was a worthy idea and that was meaningful to us, a lot of efforts but in the testing area and were putting our efforts into we want our supports and we want the equal opportunity to learn, but i do not think that we are a part in what we are trying to achieve. Host but you need some of that testing to get to where this kids are academically . A goodlet me give you example if i go to the doctor and i am there for a checkup, the doctor is going to take my temperature. If i have a fever, he is not or worse,mpty my leg, i will be judged on whether i get your fever down ok, so i will stick you in isotope i can get your fever down in ways that do not actually make you healthy and might actually hurt you. To know what the temperature is of the patient . Absolutely. If i say it is really cheap to put that thermometer in your that is very objective, so that is all i am going to do. You will end up hurting the patient. Host the Obama Administration has said that they want and expect to see some form of accountability measure in the final bill. Do you think that one will end up in the final bill . Guest i have been asking people what that word means, you know . This is such an interesting town. I am really going to ask you, when you say accountability, what do you mean . Host im specifically as big it about the moment that cory booker introduced. Guest what do you say when you say there will be accountability . Guest well host well, test scores have annually and what do , what if not test scores do we use . Guest i love interviewing you. [laughter] to what service does the test score allow for data . Who gets punished if these kids do not do well on a standardized test . Will holdne says, i you accountable, it usually means that if you do not get whatever it is, you get punished. What we have seen now for 13 years, teachers who have always felt like they were accountable for doing what a good teacher is supposed to do, i was teacher of the year in utah, and i know why. It had nothing to do a test scores, it was because i went above and beyond to make sure that i had interesting and engaging lessons and that i contacted parents, i kept kids after school to help tutor them on my own time. I helped myself to really high standards and i said, i have to be accountable for giving these kids everything that is in me. And that really, really good word, since no child left has come to mean, if you do not have the test score, get punished. You get threatened. You are supposed to be afraid because fear or greed maybe get a prize. That is how we motivate teachers. People who think that do not understand teachers. They do not understand educators. They do not understand anyone who wants to work with children, so accountable is a good word when you say, and when we see something that is not working, you are supposed to intervene. You are supposed to answer lies to analyze that data and state we see something that is not working. What is our plan . How do we analyze that data and say, what do you know . We have a significant number of kids coming to school hungry. It cannot pay attention, so maybe what we need is a School Breakfast program or a better outreach to parents who are not coming to school. Hold me accountable for intervening when something is not working. We should not just keep doing the same old ring it nothing is not work if something is not working. Host i want to jump in, what data are you talking about . Guest the kind of data we use that orchard elementary where i taught. Yes, we actually had the stanford achievement test that we used when i was there. Whether it was a basic skills test but most of them were off shelves, thermometers those standardized test were meant to look at longterm trend so that no child report card was made off of those. They usually took the test before the end of school and you do not get the results ouridnt use it to guide instruction. What we looked at was we said, parents are or are not coming back to parentteacher conferences. We look to the kinds of teacher tests that we would give an assessment. That meant i could look at things like a report, a science we would do all kinds of things to allow kids to demonstrate that they had material. For me, i had a lot of kids with reading disabilities. Good, you will give me an oral report. You have to defend this position with reason and evidence. Had a rubric i was a trusted professional to say, here are the standards that the utah state legislator s et. Planyou develop the lesson. You develop the intervention when the child needs to move faster, or not. Scripts. Hers are given they say, this is boring. I have to read the script, and if my child is not respond to it, i am held accountable for a program that some district professional chose for me. I have no say in the decision in that school. We want someone to be held accountable for the resources we are given to do our job. We want to be held accountable for being responsible to do what our kids need. That was the other part we were looking for in reauthorization. Where is the authority . What we want is to have the professionals, who knew the names of the children, to have the authority to make instructional decisions. Host let me step in to say you are watching newsmakers peter. Reporter a more explicit political question. The National Education association is the Largest Labor union in america. Americaner union, the federation of teachers has and hillary clinton. They did not endorse early in 2008. You have not yet and or spirit can we expect an endorsement . And if so, when . Will it be clinton . Is Bernie Sanders giving her a run for the money . Lily both of the organizations have very different processes to reach decisions. A long time ago when jimmy , that was thening first time that the National Education association decided to make a recommendation to our neighbors our members. We have made a recommendation and every president ial race since then. I feel very confident that we will make one in this race. He question is one of timing we are making those decisions now. Our Political Action committee who leadp of educators state affiliates all over the country. They will come together and make a recommendation. They will debate this and make a recommendation when they believe it is the right time to our board of directors. We have a board of directors like no other board of directors. Almost 200 practitioners who are elected in their state to come and debate what it means to teach. What it means to learn. What we need from congress. We know how important the president is in setting the agenda. It was president bush with senator kennedy that brought us no child left. It will be a continuation of that debate now. One of the things that i love is that the candidates are talking about things like affordable college. They are talking about things like preschool available for every child. These are things that we have been asking for for years and years. Now, we are saying president ial candidates talking about the needs of children. We know that we have done our work. They will not talk about those things just to please us. They will talk about those things because they are convinced the public cares about those things. That means we have a chance. We have a chance to bring those issues into the arena, and a chance for politicians to go on record in front of the world this is what you can expect from me. Coming to the republican side of the aisle, trump is pulling ahead. We dont know a ton about his education policies besides he is not a fan of common core. Role of roll back the federal government. What would education look like under a Trump Presidency . Lily i wonder if anyone you would interview would secondguess where donald trump will go the next time he opens his mouth. It will be me. I will give up on that. I will tell you, on the republican side, you hear them say it in different ways, but i believe they all mean the same thing. They keep talking about something, again, that sounds common sense like local control push the decisionmaking from the federal government down to the school or state legislator. By the way, we heard a lot of those things as we were talking Republicans Senate when we were talking about reauthorizing. The same rhetoric. What it comes down to alarms us, actually. Something that sounds like local or, i just said, shouldnt the people who know the names of the kids they cant get more local than i know the names of the kids. Saysderstand that the code this is special ed funding. Lets give it to the governor and allow the governor to decide where it goes. Depending on what governor you have, they may not spend on students. They might spend it on private vouchers that allow you to take that funding and give it to someone else. Title i funding is a nice long saying wonky word for this is money that helps students in poverty and , andvantaged students family support, so they feel welcome into the school. Is reason that came about because it was so clear during the Civil Rights Movement that states werent doing what they needed to do for poor children. Poor children are still communities of color. It was part of the Civil Rights Movement. No, we dont believe it is a good thing to go back to 1960 and say, your state legislator, they will do the right thing. They didnt. That is why we have special and title i. I and we dont agree with those candidates who say the answer to education is on the national level. Host we just of a few minutes left. Reporter what of the things we but that at next america is the changing demographics of the country. Students the number of students of color is growing. Teachers are not as diverse. Think can be done to increase teacher diversity . Students show that kids do best when they can relate to their teacher. Just the students, but the families. The connection with the families is so vital. My mother is from panama, and did not teach a spanish. We are so angry at her for that. We have horrible Kitchen Table spanish. I know that even in utah, where people think diverse the means presbyterian, we had this growing group of latino families coming in, and if i could speak way that it was a they went home and told their moms and dads, the teacher can speak spanish. They felt more comfortable coming to me and asking a question. You are right. Research shows that connection is vital. One of the things that the National Education association has focused on is the importance of having a diverse teacher corps and support staff in the school. Uck into that. Forgivenessoan programs. What about going on a College Campus where students are spending a lot of money that is another question but a lot of these College Students who might have been convinced to be teachers are going, i will never off my money as a teacher, when i could make double going into almost any other profession. What theoking at local, state, and National Government can do in loan forgiveness programs. What if you were to say to someone who could be anything they wanted, be a teacher, we are looking for teachers who can connect with people who are bilingual. We, the people who want to be there is a certain bonds. Even the support staff could work anywhere they want. They feel a connection with kids. They fill a connection with community. If you were to design something that said, we are trying to get the most talented, Diverse Workforce in this school community, you would make it affordable for them to get their degrees, their certification, to work there. He would give them incredible creative authority to do what they need to do for those students and really personalize it. You would get out of their way and let them do their job. They would be rushing to work there. Host our guest this week is Lily Eskelsen garcia. We will be right back. To that we have had a chance talk, lets start with you. As far as the specifics with no child, what did the guest bring to the table . Did she say anything about the debate happening in the house and senate . Reporter i do not think she said anything new. She circled around our question on accountability. To be fair, we dont know how the house and senate will caucus on the accountability issue. I think one thing that came off clearly in this interview was educationational association is supportive of the idea of returning power to states when it comes to accountability. Let the states make their own decisions. Lily eskelsen about something going back to the states, but , those make choice the union very nervous. I think it is important to understand that there is some odd political alliances being john here when you have a very democratically leaning Teachers Union working with republicans on federal issues and not necessarily falling in line with what their civil rights allies believe on accountability or lawmakersdemocratic think. Reporter i agree with that. Even raking with the white house accountability they have broken their, their broken with Civil Rights Groups. They threaten democrats and say, if you vote for that accountability amendment, we are paying attention. Democrats did vote for it. Host has always been this dual thought of we want accountability, but we dont necessarily what a test to judge what accountability means . I think that is a very sincesue and has been one 2002. One of the questions we asked is if not test scores, what of can you use . There are not great measures even though people are trying to come up with other ones. You heard lily mention other ones. I think the other question i have, and i suppose in some ways is a philosophical one, and we did not ask her about this, but the nea has not had a great relationship with the Obama Administration. In fact, in 2014, delegates wanted to remove the u. S. Secretary of education arne duncan. When you have that level of political fire, what have you got left if the administration. Oes republican i think that is an important as essential question to ask. Host how much influence does the en nea Going Forward . Reporter ino