The discussion focused on how newsrooms are changing how they approach hiring and story coverage as well as advice for young journalists entering the profession. This runs for one hour, 10 minutes. Everybody welcome. We are so happy you are with this. I am julie, the executive director of the National Association of Journalism Institutes and we are very happy to be hosting this event on newsrooms after the summer protests. Anything has really changed. Thank you to the National Press club members for planning this program in partnership with us and the communicators committee. Its going to be a very interesting and informative conversation. First among our wonderful panelists and then we hope youll join in by sharing your questions using the q a queue. So im going to turn this over to our moderator in a moment, Michael Carter who is usa today managing editor of standards, ethics and inclusion. But first i want to say again welcome and thank you to our panel and amanda barrett, fda managing editor of the associated press. Rene sanchez, editor and Senior Vice President at the Minneapolis Church news and dorothy packer, Investigative Reporter for wbbm. In my hometown of chicago and president of the National Association of black journalists. Again thank you all for being , here. And michael, over to you. Michael thank you for having me. Thank you again to our panelists. Thank you to everyone. I hope you get a lot of out of this conversation. This is important. We have a great group of panelists that will dig right in. So, i want to kick us off with an overarching question here. Newsrooms have been announcing a lot of great changes over the last few months. New diversity leadership positions. New task forces. They are creating new projects. But after years of inequities in our american newsrooms, some have even characterized this as systemic racism in american newsrooms. Has anything really changed . Amanda, i would like to start with you. Amanda thank you, michael. Thank you everyone for having us here today for this very important conversation. I would say that things are starting to change. Was so muchre conversation inside our newsrooms. Particularly as we were covering the summer of protests. It started us off on a path of soulsearching. But we are nowhere near done. I think that we are started, and we are thinking and starting to make change. But my concern is how do we make the change permanent . How do we really try to not only reach different communities but also give people more power in newsrooms and here their voices and bring them into the decisionmaking about what we do . So that is where my mind is. Michael rene . Do you have any thoughts on that . Rene i agree with amanda. The only thing that i would add is that we are taking a first set of steps that we think can be meaningful. But there is a huge burden to the point of, how do we sustain it well and how a year out from now can we say that there has been change . I guess i would say that the only really evident change so far is that i think in our newsroom, given the magnitude of what happened here in minneapolis, we are daring to listen much harder. Even when we think we are listening, to listen harder. To journalists of color and some of the nuances of issues beyond kind of the obvious shortcomings. So that has been i think an important part of the process so far, and i hope it may push us into a significant change. Michael excellent. Do you have thoughts on this one, dorothy . Dorothy i think the protests fueled a racial reckoning in newsrooms across the country, just like we saw in other industries. I think that we definitely see it in the newsroom. What i see is black journalists coming together, who are coming together, joining together in demanding change with the new newsrooms. They are demanding equality. They are demanding that managers listen to them and because of that, i see that there are more hires. So we were talking about this the other day. We are seeing some movement. They aregers are hearing the voices of black journalists and other people of color in particular, and responding. If they are not arrogant, they are being proactive. I think there is some movement. The question, like amanda said, is how do we sustain it . Ishink one way to sustain it to say, dont stop screaming. Just keep pushing. , we have back and say one new manager, we are good. Tohave to keep up we have keep the heat up. That is one way. There a number of other ways we can talk about later of ways that i think we can do to address systemic racism but i will stop there for now. When you talk about sustainability and keeping it going, why should journalists of color in the industry now believe that anything will , especially forward if we go back to historical data. All of our organizations have challenges but i will just use as an example. Vowed to978, they achieve parity in newsrooms with that of the unit is states by 2000. It is 2020. Now they are saying they will 2025. Parity by the canto be kicking down the road. What will make this stick . What will make this sustainable . What will make the change be permanent. Ill start with you again, dorothy. Dorothy one of the things that will make the change and i dont know that i can say permanent i think one of the things that will make this fight more constant is that were frustrated now. I think because of the protests, because of what is happening, because of the unrest in this country, because of the racism, we are frustrated and we are perhaps more determined in that there are more of us who are in the newsroom and who are more aware. If you look at in 1978 and that was just about the time that i came in, i was the only woman in the newsroom. There were no others. Fast forward to today and were definitely not the only one in the newsroom but there are more of us and what im seeing is that literally, i have chapters reaching out to me every day saying that we are getting together and we are going and demanding to see more people of color in management positions. Were demanding to see more people of color in decisionmaking positions and i think thats why youre going to see a change and its because of the numbers, its because of the time and its because of the frustration. And young people in particular, they are not as educated as we they are not as patient as we were. Theyre not willing to sit back and say if i do the right things long enough, my time will come. Theyre speaking up and i like that. I like that theyre saying wait a minute, ive done all these things. I want my turn now. I want my opportunity now. So its a different time and i am prayerful that it will make a difference, that it will sustain. Rene, whats it look like for your shop . Rene lets be honest, i think there should be skepticism. If you look over recent years or even the decades, gains are very incomplete, they are fragile. I dont think theres a magic bullet and were not approaching it that way as we renew this work with i would say greater urgency than ever. The way we are thinking about it is that you know, they have to rethink and have a lot more intention around everything from the pipeline of young journalists to developing midcareer journalistic positions of leadership. And it just the full spectrum list you might say in the hope that in all those ways, there will be gains. You know, the one other thing i would say that is different compared to any point that ive seen so far is that here in our newsroom, we are working directly in and constantly with several leaders of journalists of color in our newsroom and whats been great about it is that it started very much as a shared partnership. For example after two months of listening and really trying to get more deeply at the issues before we put out an action plan, i let the leaders of that group line by line and call out what was maybe tone deaf to put forth emphasis on other things we really trying to do this together, not just as a Leadership Group responding to particular new questions or demands. Amanda theres a couple of things at play here. First i think for a key, this went from being a newsroom conversation to a company conversation. A lot more people started talking about their experiences and feeling like they got left out of a lot of opportunities or feeling like they werent heard and so i think there was a groundswell of sharing that really helped us when we started thinking about how can we change the way we operate and how can we think about the audience that we want to reach, bringing different perspectives and voices to the and actually telling some unusual stories. And we heard back from customers that thats what they want. Theres a business imperative here we should not ignore. For us, our customers tell us that we need to be given a total picture of the communities that we cover. We need to get a diversity of voices and opinions and different people are coverage. So having that kind of response helped us think about holistically how we can change our operation to do better. But there is still skepticism. Theres definitely skepticism and i think theres going to be. We have to show our work and we have to be really serious about making change and show commitment as leaders of our news organizations in order for people to see that change show that changes happening. Dorothy i think if we dont do that, youre not going to see the support of the community and edelman did a survey and found that people want to know that the brand they support is conscious, is socially conscious. They want to know that the manufacturers who make them have a diverse company. The Community Looks at the news industry the same way. And its important. Amandas point, it is about the bottom line. And i know that we may not be able to see these changes happen today or tomorrow, but i think its different this time. You have Companies Like the star tribune and the ap putting together an action plan. Where 50 years ago individual companies are not putting together an action plan area action plan. There was a mandate from the Turner Commission and a mandate from the asa need to do the from the asne to do the right thing and make some changes but now individually these companies are putting together a plan to make a difference. What we have to do is make sure that they carry out those. Dorothy, i want to stick with this topic for a few more minutes because you mention something that ive heard numerous times. You said when you first came in, you were the one. I believe that there are still numerous newsrooms out there where there are still a one and if you are the one, you dont have a collective to go to management and say i want this change or we need this change. We have journalists of color leaving the business. How do we model newsrooms of all sizes to keep journalists of color in the business, to train them to provide them mentorship and to help promote them or give them career plans that will help them achieve their goals. And i dont mean just from, reporter to seasoned reporter, but to editor, to executive editor, to general manager and dare i say into the boardroom. What do we need to do to get to that . Dorothy two things. One, i think its kind of different questions here. There are many newsrooms that there is still only one. You remember the case in kenosha, wisconsin, where the editor quit. He was the only black editor, the only black person in the newsroom. He quit over that. There are many cases where there are one. Today, the difference when i started, we are much more connected because of any hj, aaja, and altogether organizations. There is an opportunity even if you are the only one to network with others and others who will support you. My job as president is to be the backup to be the support, the voice when you need it. About whatuestion you do, i can tell you that there are a number of programs that Companies Already run apprenticeship programs, fellowship programs that help people get in the business. Get anrtunity to internship or apprenticeship, get that first job, and perhaps move up. Ae problem is that there is gap. They get in and to many times, tore is nothing to do continue that mentorship, continue that relationship, continue to give them opportunities. Years, theysix leave, because they dont have a role model. Nobody has given them the opportunity. The road up is too long that is going to be 10, 12, 15 years before you get there. [inaudible] to the top. Bring them in. You know, dare say they get to the boardroom. Hire them right at the boardroom. People of color have that and of experience. Theyve been in the industry long enough. They can come in as an executive editor, they can come in as general editor. So just start there. We shouldnt always have to start at the bottom. We should be able to start at the top as well. Rene, looks like you had something to say. Rene i think thats a great point of emphasis. What were thinking about, what were striving to do with more intensity, to do it better is frankly to increase the accountability and to increase accountability on this issue in every Single Department of the newsroom. Not to simply say this is a newsroom thing, its a features thing. Its a photo thing area its a metro news thing. It is a copy desk thing. What were trying to do is get a plan going and it is in motion now in which the new leadership position we have on these issues is to kind of lockin a quarterly meeting with the leaders of each department and be able to ask questions like where are you now as compared to where you were last quarter with the Development Plan of journalist x. Where are you now with recruiting on the job you know that is coming up this summer. Things like that and what were hoping is that if we can increase accountability in each department, in a structural way, that over the next year a lot more will bloom and then that Critical Mass will i think my hope anyway when presented journalists of color coming in at all different stages of their career. They see the commitments, they see themselves, they see peers like them and thats the challenge before us and its pretty stark. Amanda, did you have any thoughts on this particular question . Amanda it is something we all struggle with because lets face it, journalism was not always great at helping people create career paths from the getgo. Thats just a basic issue that we have. But we really have to focus in and think about how we can create assignments for people. Give them opportunities, create new leadership opportunities. For us, i know we can be very hierarchical and we have committees, but theres always people on the committees. Can we pull some other people in . Can we give them a chance to lead, give them a chance to try something new because we know that we need them to build those skills, we need them to be leaders in the newsroom in the not so distant future. So i think all of us, its incumbent upon us as news organizations to really help someone, help our black staffers, all of our staffers but particularly our minority staffers find a way forward, develop the skills they need and so they can be in those positions. Dorothys is so key about point recruiting at all levels. I am fed up with the idea that the only way we can bring in minority journalists is to bring them in on entrylevel reedit on entrylevel. There are plenty of people like me who been in business 30 years. They have been doing the work for a long time. Why are they not getting the call . Why are not they not being considered . Thats something we have to focus in on because typically, what happens is they hire their friend. We have to break through that and as rene said, you have to hold them accountable. We have to say no, youre not going to go hire your friend. We need to look at the panel of people that are being interviewed for jobs and be more demanding that people are out there recruiting all different kinds of people so that we can bring those voices into our company. Amanda recruiting efforts and i recruiting efforts and i just want to say this, amanda, its exactly what i wanted to say. Recruiting efforts is key. Or one of the keys for sure. We have to make sure that you are searching beyond your small circle and that means you out to organizations like them. We have 1400 members, we have databases of producers, databases that were developed now as freelancers. We have the talent but we are beginning to get calls. Now more than ever because i have pretty much been jumping on. My turn take me, take me. , ive been saying come to us, come to us, we have the talent because i want the industry to know that we are a resource and its the same thing for any agency, so i think these companies have to be very mindful and very, when they go to say were going to fill this position, dont just make a phone call. Go to the universities as well. Dont just call your friends because sometimes its a question and the Companies Say why is it that we keep hiring people who look like the managers we already have . Why do we keep hiring white people who look like white people . Thats the question i didnt mean to interrupt you there but thats the question i was about to ask. I have been asked in other newsrooms how do we trust the process if the same leadership is in place that peter got us to place that got us to this position or has maintained this position and amanda, to your point, they are hiring their friend. I also want to make sure there are systems in place and i want to know what you all have in place your shots, i like to know the systems in place so its more than a really room, anyone whos not familiar with the rooney rule, it requires you bring in a candidate of color, a minority person to interview for any head coaching job. But as ive seen it and ive seen this happen in newsrooms, the candidates are brought in to check off a box and the conversation is had, they walk in the front door, the conversation is had as they are walking and the next thing you know, they are at the back door and they are out. And we did our job. What are your shops doing to ensure that the managers have the right training, they have the right understanding, they have the right decision to understand the needs to diversify newsrooms . E i have literally invoked the rooney rule here to our leaders because on the one hand it sounds great but where are we x sounds great but where are we where are we x years later when you look at the landscape of professional football and headcoaching and it could easily be argued that hasnt been that effective because to your point, its kind of a box checking exercise. So we have invoked that directly as a clear sign of how this can go way off track or start as strong rhetoric and have no consequence so what were trying to do, to be honest, obviously we are just kind of renewing our intensity around getting much better but were already discovering challenges within challenges and some of them have the sort of relate to that as we talk to broad effective leaders we realize wait a second, if this is too quiet. The same people are asking the and a lot of people are not. So we subsequently tried to break that down in small meetings of four, three or four people with leaders in the room of color so that there can be a direct reckoning about what is not right. And secondly, we appointed a new Senior Leader to help lead the way on these issues but weve already had to cant kind of ring a bell and say wait, the person in this job cannot suddenly have 510 tasks that everyone else gives them and they say weve got this person, theyre going to help me so were trying to create a culture of ownership, not box checking because i think that is the key rift and we will lock up in a year and have these feelgood box checks but no consequential change. I would agree with that. I think weve been doing training but ill be honest with you, there have been times when someone has put forth a candidate and theyll say we cant hire the person. And thats been a bit of a reckoning. That makes things tense, but we have to be firm if we want to bring in more diversity into the company. And i think theres definitely power in that. Theres also power in just talking to people about what are you looking for . What are the exact qualifications . Because one of the things we found was that you know, there would be a list of qualifications and then someone would come along who was a friend of someone who got something totally different. Thats what we say is what were facing the higher on. The hire on. Well, that wasnt in the qualifications for the job. I think its about talking to folks honestly, Holding People accountable and really reviewing what theyre doing. Its not enough to just go out and hire them but we need to be stopping and assessing what our progress is and what the problems are and seeing what we can fix. And its hard. Its not an easy job because of course were all really busy. Theres a lot of news every single day. Its very crazy but this is a high priority for us. And its something frankly that we have to do for our own survival. I think a couple of things. I think one of the things that we should consider and i know newsrooms are also doing this but id like to see more people do it, is sort of for the middle managers, no matter what race they are to have an unconscious , bias training. I think some of that is that managers, they dont realize what theyre doing. Nobody is doing this maliciously. I think that helps so that there is kind of an education on training. I think something that would help the overall effort is the data. As journalists we asked for the data all the time and newsrooms, Media Companies dont want to release what their numbers are. So how many people of color do you really have on the Editorial Staff . Why do we want that . So that when you talk about sustainability we want to be able to say we meet with you six months from now, you have not moved the needle. In order for us to know how far youve come, we need to know where you are. So that just in case, what we see happening is that companies will put out a press release and say we hire this person, we hire that person but the numbers havent changed because they left three others because those three set up and left. It hasnt changed and where are these people that youre hiring . What positions are they in . That is something that beginning to push for we want the data so that we can see today and we can come back and look tomorrow what have you really done and where have you really made those changes that are going to make a difference. I think you hit on a very good point there. The transparency is vital to Holding People accountable and making sure that things do change. Im happy to say the company i work for just recently went through an audit themselves area themselves. They publicly vowed to reach parity by 2025 just like the newsreaders association did. And i think its important that companies do that. But how do you continue to communicate internally and externally about our efforts while at the same time getting your audience engaged in the process . In order for us to have the inclusion of different communities, we have to get into those communities and i think weve seen times whether it was in st. Louis or whether it wepens to be in renes town, often are not trusted when something goes down in specific communities and its because we only show up when something goes sideways. So how are we communicating internally and externally and with our audience, how were trying to move forward and why its important that we do that . I will offer a quick couple of quick examples that are part of forming at the top of our list. One thing were going to do to next year to that point exactly is form a kind of Committee Panel in which we would have recurring meetings about our coverage and be transparent about our weaknesses and blind spots, listen to the perception of those. I have a monthly newsletter that is sent out to all subscribers. I have already chronicled some of this to them. Were going to do that in a regular way. The challenges, amanda said this is not just internal challenge, its external in terms of coverage. And we have a burden of proof to make sure our coverage does a much better job and is not sort of a crisis coverage. We are a full spectrum in what we write about, about community color, so what we are shifting resources around and were doubling down on our coverage of race. Right now, we have one reporter devoted to it fulltime. Obviously, lots of people in people tackled the subject in various beats but we are going to shift things so that we have in the hope that we can just do two a better job of having more complete coverage, not just crisis coverage. So thats all were working on this fall and with the hope that next year we can really start to show some gains. Had soleally, we have searching cup soulsearching conversations. And it naturally flowed out of the coronavirus questions when everyone went home, our Hr Department started gathering people to talk about their feelings because people were stressed, trying to be parents and homeschool and all those things. Then when the protests began, we sort of naturally flowed into that. And they actually brought in dr. Ron brown, who led sessions for us around unconscious bias and white privilege, things of that nature , and we were having those conversations and all of us news went through faultlines training with the mainer institute so we can start identifying our biases and start looking at our coverage in a different way. And ive been leading an effort to create what were calling an calling inclusion champions. Whenever we have something that we really need to drive down into the organization, we create champions, where we represent vertical or format regions or keys and those people are really having conversations on the front end of our stories about making sure that we are challenging our own assumptions about our communities, trying to think about how we can bring different voices into our coverage, different perspectives, some different sources. We look at some of our coverage, we see a lot of white men are the voices and we really get broader than that. So, we got full are kind of dragging themselves into the organization because i feel very strongly that lives at the senior manager level, were not doing our jobs. It really needs to be driven by our staff and theyre enthusiastic because a lot of them have had these operations for a very long time. Wherever they come from, they felt that we are not doing a good job in this area. So, i think were off to a good start there. But and we know that were in a different kind of business because of course were selling content to customers and we can help our customers because we can provide for them some of the different voices and perspectives that they may not be able to have because they may have a soft class. Heres what ill add to that. I think what we need to do is educate, make the reporters more educated about all the communities. You know . As in chicago, when i was doing general news, i could tell you about the nuances of every community in the city. I had contacts in every community. I was frustrated when, in so and so many black reporters are when you get that phone call that says hey, im covering this story in a community. What black person should i call . What Community Person should i call . Where should i go . I want to get this. I never had to ask those questions when i went to the white communities. Why . Because every time i went, i collected that information. I had a rolodex in every community. And i made sure that i understood the history of every community. And i think thats something that my colleagues didnt do because i was the fallback. You know . They could call the black reporter and the black reporter would be able to answer those questions, and thats just not fair. So, i want to see these managers make everybody educated in every community so that any story that comes up, youre not going to make a mistake. Youre going to have enough knowledge about that community or perhaps understand theres somebody in the community you can call so that you dont end up using a word, using a phrase, and sending it to somebody. You know, i want to second that. I second that and thats basic need building. Youre really working your beat, you should have a wide variety of content, across communities. Because otherwise, how are we being sure youre telling the full story . Its really frustrating for black journalists when we get called in to be the voice or be the one to find the sources. As a black journalist, you always had to go out and learn about other communities and every journalist should be expected to do that. So, i will add onto that as well, because as a visual journalist at the beginning of my career, we dont have a choice. We go everywhere. We see everything. We talked to everybody. Ralliesovered klan because thats just what i had to do. I think that its imperative. Its imperative we encourage people, or other covid right now so this may not apply, but i encourage everybody to go visit other communities, go talk to people physically, not just pick up the phone because you dont get the same sense of smell, taste, sound that you do when you hit it in person. And i think its vitally important that you understand some of the nuances of every community. And ill throw one more thing in there, which goes to your point about, you know, and i think theres a fear factor for some reporters either that theyre just nervous about being in certain areas, but i will remember when i first got to cincinnati and i was asking somebody how to get to the university of cincinnati for my newspaper. And they said well, get on this highway, go this way, get off on this exit, its about three miles this way. What i found later is that the direct route to the university was straight up our street that the newspapers on and you end up right at the university. The problem was you had to go through a poor black community to get there. And the reporter that i was talking to refuses, or i dont know if they still do, but at the time, refused to go that way because it went through a black community. So, we have to make sure were understanding our staff as well and whats motivating them and how to encourage them to get over those fears because again as visual journalist they dont get a choice. They have to go. I know were getting close on time. I do want to ask a few more questions. How are you currently getting your community to understand the need for Diverse Voices and diverse faces and Diverse People and topics in your particular markets . Again, ill throw out an example. From two places ive been in my time. And as editor, i would get phone calls. And if there were positive stories about minorities on the front page, they would call me and say we dont need to see those people on our front page. This is a print newspaper. And id say what do you mean and what do you mean . And they say you know, these people. And the funny thing to me, and its not funny, i just say it that way. If there was ever a person of color that was being arrested, indicted, anything negative i never got a phone call. So, how do you get our audience to understand that these Diverse Communities have never had positive images . Theyre not some of the negative stereotypes that have been published over time arent what these communities are entirely made of. Know community is entirely made of any one thing. How are you getting not only your staff but your audience who has been forever seeing the same thing . I think, amanda, you pointed out that coverage is primarily x, y, and z. How do you get your communities to understand and embrace the change that needs to happen . Amanda, ill start with you. I think embrace it, im going to tell you in my role as head of news coordination my inbox is ablaze and it is not always pretty. But i think that you just accept internally that you need to tell those stories and then you honestly hear from people if youre telling someunexpected stories they havent seen , if youre getting a new perspective. We have a chance to bean example. And show the role in all its complexity and there are going to be some people who accepted and there are going to be people that dont but i also think the ability to bring in the perspectives of people whove not been represented, whose voices are rarely heard is very powerful. They need to see thoseimages to. And i think theres a lot of positive things that can happen here even if we backlash. I would simply add that its an all be challenged. We would not be gaining ground even as we saw thought hey, thats a good idea. Lets expand our coverage with another reporter. Are not going to gain ground looks like its the work of reporters as compared to the reporter covering Small Business or a reporter covering schools, Public Health so we can all be challenged. Ialso think in this moment in particular , it really requires something obvious and decisive. Community is not going to really notice in his busy life and say theres unconscious bias training in the start the inhis room. Thats vital,were going to do it but i dont think people are going to notice it. One thing we just didnt do was highly notice and way overdue is that we debuted last weekend on metro columnist who is a local black journalist, lived in the community for20 years. And it was really hard because his first column introducing himself, talking about a mission hes going to have literally was the most read story on our website today it appeared. There are hundreds ofcomments on the story , largely positive but he himself will over 100 emails from readers so just one initial sign but i think thats partly where trust building comes from. You have to be obvious and it has to be sustainedand we hope that one of the ways here. We cultivate more trust. Try and add something different. Not just what we do, like all positive stories or experts of color but one of the things i think i see in newsrooms today is that i freeze again. One of the things that i see on some newsrooms is stop using the mug shot area and the media has really been responsible or bear some responsibility for the negative stereotypes and for the perception communities have about black people. So i think were quick to give us, work with quick to put that much on thefront page. Were quick to put that much on television. We never come back and say to you well, one of the people who were upthere , they were charged. Its a cheap way out and its a way especially on television to fill some space and its unnecessary. We can tell that story about putting the mug shot up there and i think too often , these managers really need to focus on area i know in our newsroom we now have a policy that we dont just automatically put that mug shot up there. Ive seen many newsrooms do that and i think that is the way to go. Ill give you one example happened with michigan. There was a newspaper, there were three black men who were running for state representative. Two of those men or all three of those men at one time when they were younger had been for a misdemeanor. What does the newspaper do in tellingthe story . They all put the mug shot up there. This was like 15 years ago so it was that kind of just because they could do it and the paper ultimately apologized because what they didnt do is use the current photo of these candidates. So when you have examples like that i think we need to step back and look. I think the other thing that we sometimes do in media is if there is a black person in particular, that person has been shot. You tend to do that more with black victims and just one other thing, you know if theres a person whos missing, teenager who is missing that poor black mother is grieving saying please do the story and that black child who is not a runaway who is missing and that one almost gets lost but we do the pretty blonde in a heartbeat. Youve seen those studies before so its something that again comes to that unconscious bias and their things in the media that we need to change to help the community see a different life and a better life. I to do appreciate you for all those answers and im sure there is content that we have discussed that people can take away and use in their own daily lives or their own shops but i want to ask one more question to each of you. What piece of advice would you give to organizations that need to, want to diversify their leadership ranks. What can they do right now . I will start. I actually think the single most valuable thing we did in this reckoning in the aftermath of George Floyds killing was frankly shocked often the most profound thing we went through as we spent, myself and the managing editor and publisher we have to, to our sessions outside because of covid and i said to a journalist of callers who are leaving their thoughtful reflection on this moment i havent said anything for a long time and so lets be honest. I feel like giving them comfort to take bluntly some things we didnt realize or overlooked or were distracted by a budget challenge here or there was very cathartic for them and by opening for them and really starkly helpful for us. And i cant stress enough that shutting up and i said to someone the other day listening is not leading to speak but its really being quiet and hearing the death of pain and discomfort about some of these issues. That would be my first piece of advice and i think its going to propel us to a more tactful things we have to do. Advocacy newsrooms literally put all the faces on the screen for people who are decisionmaking positions. But their faces out there who decides what story we are covering and who decides, who helps shape the news and look around and make that decision right then and there to hire more people of color at the top. I would say be as honest and open and just stop because we havent done it right and make the people in your newsroom they care so very deeply about all these issues your partner. We dont have all the ideas. They are a lot of good ideas and there has been a lot of good learning across our company and where we have to take off the defensive shield and join efforts with our colleagues to make things better. Excellent. I did want to get to a few of the viewer questions that are out there. One question that was asked by holly is wondering if you could touch on how coverage has changed this summer and as some of you have mentioned you had reporters covering diversity and inclusion to your roster and included focused verticals but is this going to be a passing topic and how can you ensure that it stays . I need to, my apologies guys, i have got to jump off. I want to thank everybody. I need to jump off before i answer that question. Thank you for being with us. Thank you. Thank you. You know michael i would said goes back to the point i was trying to make about accountability that you know what we are going to be attempting to do across the departments is assert that as a priority and accountability so that we can say every six months okay lets look at what we are still missing and where we had gained . One would be a planned to have what you would call a rolling audit of coverage by the department. I would say we have had the team since 2017 and we have really worked hard to lead them into all of our coverage. These kinds of issues are not sign language and its not just about covering a topic or a community. The folks in those communities care about schools and Everything Else. I think for us it is also about accountability looking at our coverage and we have started to really try to evaluating and see what our problems are. We havent started tracking it specifically. We need to figure that out but we have been giving great thought to how we can ensure that we are getting different kinds of voices into the content im also looking at areas where we might be unique in how we cannot improve them. We have a couple more here at inc. We have time for. One reader, viewer asks as part of the committee in the newsroom in july that addressed diversity and inclusion and make the way for more Inclusive Practices in hiring. They want to put out a joint statement with the leadership about the initiatives they were going to undertake but the management apparently is hesitant to publicly release anything other than general ambitions. They want to keep specifics, specific strategies and Everything Else internally. How important is it to share these tactics with the public and is it important to be specific versus saying we want to do better . Before you answer ive will say to be specific. We have been saying we want to do better. Put something down, write it down, have a plan. I hope its not a plan. You must have a plan, sorry. Go ahead. Amanda said it earlier what is the wisdom in that . Its like if we cant be on is now when can we be honest . We have miles to go. It is a bedrock importance. Here we have made gains. We have done some things right. Its fragile but we have overlook some things. Are we have been distracted by some things. So yeah you can be nervous. You can have excuses but what is the point . The point is lets prepare ourselves to get much better and to be authentic and part of being authentic is to be transparent and specific. What do we have to fear . I would rather the majority of her lead readers challenge us. Specifics are way better. Why fear it collects. I would think if you need to get them on your side you are going to have to build some bridges for some folks who might he leading the way and you might use their influence to influence others so it may be just that there is fear and you can help them see their way through it. I would only add that thats what i refer to when we sat outside for couple of hours. I have to concede my own sense of things, i dont think i started in a bad place but sitting there generally trying to listen deeply to what i was hearing is extremely helpful so the person asking that question i cant recommend highly enough consisting on a deep on this conversation in which your data is heard because you know mindset can be changed or mines open a little bit more by that. I dont think we would be where we are without that. A couple more until julie pulls the plug on me but theres a google from a journalist who says what would be your advice for journalists of color purple. And to end in some cases considering whether they should try to enter this challenging and complicated job market right now . Do you want to go first amanda . I can. You know that actually is something that i have applied to my whole career. If there was an opportunity i took it. It didnt always make sense. I didnt always know where we were going so there is that jagged line but i suspect most people czar. So i think to be open to trying something that you didnt expect or didnt plan on and make disconnections. The networking thing is so easy. Its a small group of people and the Small Business and most of those really work for connections because a lot of times how we get our jobs depends on it. I would say if you enjoy this craft journalism needs you. We need you know that kind of perspective from the generation rising up because it wont be long before journalists like you actually are leaving things are presiding over other journalists in some way so its always going to be hard and we dont know where this is going a year from now, how much more credibility would be had but it feels different to me and when i look around the people i know i feel like theres going to be more determination than ever to gain ground. It you can be part of a positive force. I didnt like it simply because first of all you should have your own mentors right now whether professors or students you worked with to try to build their own board of her is for your life, your career and bart getting advice from them and bouncing things off of them. Its ultimately going to be your decision because you have to be happy in your career and happy where you go but but a lot of times people can help you see that sometimes you have to make a left turn in order to make the right. Its important to not turn down an opportunity just because you cant see two moves down the board. You need to understand whats going on right now and how it may benefit you or to help build your skill set as you are getting ready move forward in your career. The left turn may be the best thing that ever happened to you. So i throw that out there as well. I havent had the plug pulled on me yet so i have another question here. So there are two separate questions but i will ask them the same time. You recommend inclusion champions and if so should they be compensated for that extra labor and furthermore how can we explain to journalists that its not a black story and its not a latino story, its an american story. So its twopart. I will start. Our inclusion champions come from a variety of backgrounds. One of the things that we need to be very mindful of his allotted times we tend to frame diversity and inclusion is black and white but there are many types of inclusions. There is gender, there is geography, there is class, there is mobility which is something we have in our Sports Coverage so theres a lot of different ways to be inclusive and there is age. So we have a variety of people and some managers were asking if they wanted to participate. We need to start at the core. And so they arent compensated monetarily but they are getting training and different opportunities and they are getting leadership. I think that is really been great and now i have forgotten the second part of the question. What was the second question michael . So there was the champions and how do you get reporters to rap their minds around and understand maybe journalists that arent journalists of color that there arent enough black stories. They are doing in american story. These are just stories of americans. I think thats where inclusion is viable for us. If i say hey you are not doing this right its so much better to talk to them about their story. I do think that us having the training was very good for us because it was a way of level setting and allowing us to have conversations about who were the audiences and who are the voices that are valuable in our coverage and how we can bring different voices to the floor. I think its going to be a struggle. This is not going to be a shortterm thing. Its going to take a lot of discussion and back and forth and i think everyone has to be honest about that. Think about the challenge and i think its going to take years. I feel like we can get there but its about changing the mindset. I would only add that even as we safer example we need to think expansively about how we cover ratings, theres a point within that point which is it begs the question its not to say okay im going to turn the lens to Racial Community x or y be a latino or be at lack but just within the fabric of general coverage. We we are writing about schools in reading initiatives and suburban schools. Well you know its the student who is far part of that story. We put into the fabric of general coverage and not too isolated off on its own purge because one without the others and complete. If im covering schools or if im covering health how do i have a diversity of voices with respect to the images within that be regardless of what the person covering races doing and thats a subtle challenge but if you read it the full spectrum of your coverage is better. I do appreciate everybody today. We need to wrap up and we have gone over. I apologize. I want to be respectful of everyones time but i want to thank amberg there at and rene sanchez the Vice President the star tribune Dorothy Tucker who had to jump up that is the president of the National Association of black journalists could i would like also to really thank the Journalism Institute and the National Press club for putting this conversation on. I think its been absolutely wonderful and i dont say that as the moderator. I say that as someone who got to drop the question and got some wonderful answers but i do appreciate everybodys time today and i look forward to seeing you all in the future. Thank you. Thats what gives us the confidence to say here and describe, firsthand, secondhand to the universe, like we were there. Rstar it ill start it. Is there a song in there . [laughter] ani wouldnt give a reporter interview unless they read the book first. For 20 years, book tv hosted americas nonfiction authors for an indepth conversation with cspan2 viewers. And on sunday at noon eastern, join us for a live 25th anniversary special. Your calls, facebook comments, text, and tweets, and a look back to memorable moments. The picture on the back, do you remember those days . No, not conceivably. Whats in the book . The books an