With, and connects to, the pandemic we are living through right now, right here, in april 2020. So many of us arent home, working at home, living at home, and sheltering in place as science takes on the covid19 virus. I am so fortunate to have a truly skilled and knowledgeable colleague joining me today scholar who wears many hats suspending histories archaeology, and geography. John hessler is the director of the collection at the library of congress. In a specialist on early america. He is the author of a book recently copublished by the library of congress, called collecting for a new world. John is also a distinguished curator in the libraries geography and map division and an expert and mapping in general. Now how does mapping fit in with all this . He is an advisor to a number of leading edge institutions in this country as they tech this bread of covid19 and understand how mostly populations and time. John, welcome. Thank you marie great to be here. Thank you for joining me. Lets start with history. The first recorded pandemic in the history of this hemisphere was actually the smallpox pandemic that came on the ships of the kinky source, the spaniards, in the 1500s. In tort to the indigenous population of americas in the early part of that century. What had been your experience with smallpox before that . This is a really complex and interesting question. Thereve been a number of scholars in recent years who have gone back and looked at sorted the death records from france and italy to actually track what the mortality rate and the effect of smallpox was on european population. This is well before the conquest in the middle ages into the early modern period but they found his even though the mortality rate of the disease was high so 20 to 30 of the virus which is what were talking about, didnt seem to be any largescale epidemics. It seemed to be very localized, it seems 20 to 30 of people died the rest of the people may have gotten the disease and developed some kind of immunity to it. The smallpox is a very interesting virus comment has a lot in common with covid19. There is a lot thats very different. It has lots of different animal host, its related to thing like monkeypox, and a whole series of other diseases, other viruses. The question, the evolutionary question for the smallpox virus is why is it one of those viruses is only found in humans. But as far as the European Experience for this, with the who died it was important disease but the doesnt seem to have been any largescale pandemics. Host had europeans including the spanish of course had they become immune to it by 1492 when columbus is expedition first arrive . Thats an interesting question of virus itself is a peculiar histories far as that goes. Modern science started to look at the janelle mix of the smallpox. Thereve been some interesting discoveries in recent years theres eight child the day between 1543 and 1665 that we have actually looked at very closely and see some of the genomes and look to the diseases that were that flashy surviving parts of that child mummy. What we found is the smallpox that was in that had very, very much in common with the modern strains. Things like degradation timing and all of that is shown this is a part particularly verlyn strain of smallpox it came into existence the end of the 1h and beginning the century just in time for its importation to new world. So with the immunity are sobs of 20 , 30 mortality rate, many people recovered and there is immunity by the time they arrived in the americas. There are still plenty of european dying with smallpox. Stu and john we know from early historians how devastating this particular variety of smallpox was to the native population some historians say that all deaths were contributed bowl to smallpox can you tell us a bit more about that . This is really interesting and pointless scholarly discussion buried some of the sources we have of his a spanish concorde that arrived in 1824. He wrote a diary or memoir, which wasnt actually published until 19 oh three was manuscript until then. He really talks about that mortality some of the other sources we have mike san groen and people like cortez himself, really talk in larger terms. Cortez writes about bodies piled up in streets, the odor being so bad he cant actually stand walking through the streets. Im not really sure with the mortality rate was, it was certainly very high and much much higher than 20 or 30 that we would be talking about in your time. The interesting thing is, theres a peculiar timeframe we are dealing with here its really from april 15th of 20 to january of 21, when the smallpox was really introduced. As a very early source, vasquez who basically talks about him writes a letter back to charles in august of 15 twentieths the first mention we have of smallpox in the new world from a spanish source, it basically says he was very surprised there were very few Indigenous People there. He attributes them dying of smallpox. Hence off to mayor kruse that immediately upon the arrival of the expedition, the native people begin died rapidly. It was a rapidly happening thing. It was down to the number but is very, very high. What fascinates me is how quickly as you say it move through that population. In my own research for my book at the library of congress, my book silver store and stones, its clear from the chronicles that we know there was trade up and down the coast of latin america. We note tribes were communicating with each other either to trade or because they were at war or some reason or another. But in fact, the smallpox epidemic reached the coast of peru whats now peru and ecuador, and affected, actually affected the emperor smallpox before they even arrived. Before the kinky source arrived it was this communication. Theres interesting, actually theres interesting sources this was a mayan source. Thats the earliest manuscript we have is from the 17th century. It relates to a number of epidemics. The person we talk about things to describe smallpox. It actually is before the arrival of the can keys to doors. We dont really know whats happening from the islands, just the native populations moving from the islands. The one really important thing that cortez does tell us, he does say the deficits occurring on the mainland is exactly the same as he saw on the islands. He definitely relates is the story of the introduction the smallpox that it was done by ethiopian slaves whod been with one of the expeditions one that had introduced it. Whats interesting about that is the only have one source and the rest of the source or copied. It shows an important aspect of the way the spanish were thinking of this disease. That his theory of the disease. They had an idea that it had to be transmitted by people who did not have immunity. Even just historians who are chronicling this they werent thinking about it. You are the director of this fantastic collection which is on permanent exhibit on the library. And so objects of jade and all sorts of things. Can you tell us to those artifacts, what do those chronicles of the objects actually do what happens with that and how disease spread . Switch to their some very important sources there is indigenous sources of themselves as extremely important work the florentine codex, which was put together as images actually come engravings that showed the Indigenous People with smallpox we see things like the codex on cruise which is the earliest from 1550s, the earliest image we see of actual smallpox in the indigenous population. At the library the most importantly we have things like codex shows us the botanical information. We have copies of hernandes work was a physician, who had an expedition in the 1550s and 1570s, basically chronicling plants and indigenous medicine. He chronicles over 3000 plants. He also did autopsies on Indigenous People who would died of smallpox. He was an amazing source. So a lot of these sources, a lot of these sources that really give us insight into the indigenous mines, into what was going on in their world and how they pictured their world, gives us a lot of insight in how they reacted to it. We talk about the spanish are reacting to it, and how are they reacting to it what were they thinking about . Like all populations like this the other in medicine other ways of thinking about it, as it said gives lots of botanical information, we also have actual sources which tell us about attempts of plants are using something called the fanta made it which is a climbing vine, which the roots are prepared and used for something to help fever and smallpox. Hernandez basically tells us the name for this and various uses for and also in fact it doesnt work, the only way to actually help is to earn the gallbladder of a hummingbird. There is a mix in the indigenous world of how reacting to disease from the spiritual side attempting to control their world. Its also a very detailed salsa other sources are trying to loosen any collection, historical collection with the library and other libraries around the world are really important to looking at this. Not only look at the science of the epidemics, but what with the human cost and reaction. We see that here today even the maps that are being generated with all kinds of scientific maps people are generating we also have people doing drawings of their lockdown maps and things like that. How they are feeling in this time. Of course when a virus appears no medicine is equipped to deal with it. How sophisticated exactly was or are these tremendously highly developed empires how sophisticated was their medicine . Two was a very sophisticated. With the plants they used in some of the other things they used in order to develop medicines, and still something we dont really understand that well. Some really important manuscripts which really gets deep into novotny and now walk medicine. A lot of those medicines we see they have Certain Properties and sds it properties, theres a movement and has been for many years to look at the botany and these traditional treatments or whats going on today. They can help cancer treatments and things like that. Its very sophisticated look and weathers 50000 different plants you zoom in on two or three live certain and gzip properties. How you get there is an interesting question what is the way to do that. When the spanish arrived, there is quite a healthy medicinal way of looking at disease and treatment beside the root ritualistic aspects. That ancient knowledge and medical sophistication actually brings us to the question of how does this all go to the present day . What can history tell us about whats going on right now and what we are going through right now . What do we really know with any certainty about the patterns of disease in the early americas, and what does that history really teach us about the viral spread of kobe today . I think one of the interesting things is specifically one can begin to look, put away piles of viral transmission. We dont have maps from the earliest. Of america, we do have the ideas of how the virus spread, we have letters and knowledge through written sources look back into history look at the people who look back weaving get a sense but the science on whats going on. Okay weve got something we see in europe that is not really causing the large pandemic thats not really causing a pandemic and people dying, we see the death records are not telling us the disease has had serious Global Implications we see this incidental textual knowledge that people are coming through people are dying in the americas, as ideas in the early spanish chroniclers, thats how its being transmitted. They give us a sense of the way it is moving in the timeframe. We started looking at it but more scientific tools to look at the case of smallpox, the archaeological evidence combined with ancient dna gives us a real sense of how those historical sources are correct or incorrect, however it may be. But they give us a package of the way these things actually occur that they spread. Other sources, as we get into the academics that have occurred throughout the history of the exploration we see more dailies and things like that part we get a real sense about the spread. Obviously its not as good as what we have today what we are looking at and how we are trying to map and figure out the spread of covid19 and where covid19 came from. Sealants of studying and analyzing is like the great influence of 1918 or hivaids or sars, can predict the patterns of infection and transmission. You said a great part of your career in the study of mass and the scholarship of mapping. You are now working with a number of organizations on the possibility was originally with the host. Realize its ongoing work theres much to study the can still be done. Tell us what exactly mapping has told us about covid19 so far. Whats interesting about this is we are in the situation now because liberal worldwide pandemic Wave Laboratories all over the world under really good sense of what overall genetic structure of what covid19 is. Covid19 part of a in latin as spikes coming out of it, its a genus of horseshoe bats for the most part, what we really found as the sequence of the new clio, the amino acid sequence of covid19, which is actually sars, covid two. The original name of it. 96 of that genome is actually found in the version of this particular bat. People believe it actually came from a bat making the crossover human beings. Its not really well understood. What it allows us to do, it allows us time goes on in cases spread around the world, with the genome sequence we can develop genetic tree and that fisa genetic tree can be made up a couple of things shows where the test was done, in other words a person in new york or seattle, or wuhan or somewhere in europe that tested we have a location. West have a time so have a location and time we have the actual gino. Were trying to do what were actually trying to map is the mentation through time and through space. In case of covid19, we can look at the figures that are on the screen and you see this in time. Look at the really important moment series to the rise of it and wuhan in the purple you see assault transmission through china. We start looking at the colors the tree you can see there are reds. Those reds are really the transmission to north america. Into the united states. There are two groups theres one at the top and one at the bottom. Whats interesting what the mapping can also tell us for example is the fact that the part thats into seattle, and seattle and illinois are from china. They have the mutations that are very much like the chinese virus. The one thats up at the top, is really from europe. It has mutations that comes from a european strength. We can sort of see again, get the idea very detailed idea we could never before this is really new technology we are really mapping this pandemic and away that we have never really done before. The details that we can get. Now in a sense this is theoretical it was built by very complex computer algorithms, mathematics, mutations of the virus as it goes along theres a historical metaphor because the genetic sitter treat before eric mutations or airs accumulating in the virus. They are very much like a medieval historian look at a manuscript is a kind of look mistakes in the manuscript as it moves through time and space and you look at the initial manuscript inherits how change and went to this place, because this error happens to be in a manuscript that came from germany. Its also manuscript that it was in england he could say they came from the same place, theyve got the same error. So the air is transmitted through time and space. To a certain extent thats really what we are doing here with the viral mapping. There is a lot of data being put out, theres some really amazing organizations like gis, aig, who are basically making this data all the sequence Data Available in realtime. So there are people all over the world to are able to work on this project. John those links are really remarkable, they are so interesting but lets take a moment briefly to talk about the book you have written published with the Publishing Office of the library of congress its collecting for new world. It describes the rich trove of precolumbian artifacts the library holds. What role does the libra, any library or archive have in the ongoing business of the mapping and understanding covid19 . Can you make those connections for us . I think you definitely can. Every archive, every Library Collects for a reason. Were ten but the precolumbian collection in the americas, at the library of congress and the context. Collection several other collections the ginsberg collection, kind of straddle the line between contract. In precolonial material. Look at that material as a whole its giving us a snapshot of an important moment anything about what mustve been like for the europeans arriving the americans for the people its like no other historical moment is either group had probably faced. And so, collecting that material really gets us an insight not only into the broader events what might be considered people like hernandez than natural historians of the day, reviews a picture of moment in time. Myrna situation now which is really no different. Were talking about the covid19, we obviously have mobilized a huge amount of scientific and geospatial, and biological research to try and find ways for profound historical moments from the world. Something we have really never seen before certainly never in our lifetimes and the lifetimes of several generations before us. The closest thing and any recent time would be the 1918 flu pandemic. But i think collecting in this. It is the same we are going to collapse the maps and the data talk about how scientists are actively trying to map the gino, how people are actually fighting the disease. Those of the really obvious things. We also have the library in the library of congress is one of the great institutions in the world for doing this. Over the cultural moment, the photographs collecting peoples thoughts, peoples drawings, collect how it is today fought through this moment in time. Vincent great mapping several news organizations have picked up called lockdown maps were people are drawing the maps of their neighborhoods, how they are perceiving them now. Its not just geospatial maps is also Cultural Information to disclose this is open this is my dog asked a walk, this is where we used to get a treat for my dog the shop is no longer close, so libra is like the library of congress its an institution have a responsibility in the library is one of those great places that take that responsibility seriously both from a scientific side and from the cultural side. They have a huge part to play, not perhaps at the very moment, but certainly as we move this and begin looking back it would happen to us. Schematic its a really extraordinary testament to the memory bank that an institution like this can be. A great Cultural Institution that can tell us something about what has gone before. Epidemics will come and go, pandemics will come and go, this really is so enlightening to see how they can connect for us. We have some questions that came in from some tweets, john from around the country. Here is one from cleveland ohio. Hi my name is caroline i am a historian of european history my question is how will historians be able to write objectively about this pandemic of 2019, 2020 without the political nature and controversies over covid19 revisionism. Student thats a tough question and think historians face that same question with almost any event they are trying to write about that has importance to peoples lives. Obviously, any of us who have been informed of whats going on right now see there is a differential effect and how covid19 is affecting different populations or demographic effects, theres geography affects theres a race effects. In that sense its a little different than any other historical event. I think historians will take their perspectives, filled probably in the end of march evidence for earth shattering event like this and they have had for a lot, i think historians will simply get down to the business between their work hurt objectivity, thats an open question. Whether thats an open question i think historians will get down to doing the hard work of writing about what happened, and mistakes that were made. The great things that were done in any world shaking event there are the heroes and villains. I think thats why we look at historians and we looked historians with the library of congress prayed we collect all the evidence we can and throw it out there for them to interpret. See one thank you and heres another question for moderate california what is the transmission of disease look like in california at the time of the expedition landing in 1770 . Was it immediate . Did that first group of explorers bring disease with them . Or did it come with later waves of europeans . Guest thats an interesting question is a couple answers to that. I do believe they did bring this disease within their two particular indigenous groups. Who were really affected by both measles and smallpox that were brought in by that expedition. Theres been an amazing diary to the day by day interpretation of two years with that expedition i think it was two years mightve been a little longer, was traveling in the region. The earliest part of that is narrated very, very well in the diary really actually even talks about the indigenous perspectives so its a really great resource. Those two groups were affected immediately upon the arrival of the expedition. I think was a fairly immediate effects. One of the things that hasnt really been well studied, honestly smallpox something that affects historians the flu pandemic of 1918 has been very well researched, and some great books written on it. Some of these smaller contacts some of the effects it has on these small more mobile indigenous groups all the way down into peru, has not been duly written about in a really detailed way. Its somewhat of a good moment right now historically we are involved in Something Like covid19. To kind of look at what kind of sources can we bring back we do this looking at the sources we had from the period, and using modern Genomic Research and lighten how this disease moves during these period. John, thank you so much for this conversation. There are very few people who can range from history precolumbian history to covid19 right this very minute at this time mapping it and chasing it down and seeing house going and where its going we are very grateful to you thank you for joining us to you for joining us at National Book festival. Thank you for having me everybody stay safe. So thank you so much so the coronavirus continues to impact the country. Heres a look at house affecting the publishing industry. Many stores and states are loosing their stayathome oars are trying to determine they should reopen the customers or continued online sales part in dallas theyve open books but are allowing no more than ten people distorted time. In accordance to state guidelines they cannot exceed 25 capacity. Has bookselling remains predominant online, bookstores are also migrated their author events to the virtual world. And a recent publisher which lead resort they found an effective way to remain connected with the customers and have garnered audiences but have mixed results and transferring that to book sales. Also in the news npd book scanner were flat ending the week april 25 adult nonfiction sale so another week of losses with 16 decline and are now down 10 for the year. And many book festivals and conferences that were forced to cancel her now offering attendees a virtual experience. The mississippi book festival announce the cancellation of their august Literary Lawn Party animal provide on them programs. The bay area festival kicked off a month of monthlong author talks last weekend on the festival will take place online june 6 book tv will continue to bring a new programs and publishing news. You can also watch what all of our archive programs booktv. Org. Crowd caster Youtube Channel or facebook page, the strange strange times were thrilled to be able to have virtual additions and use Live Streaming to have a digital phase to engage people in seattle and well blown herd for anyone whos willing to stare and talking to the computer right now, most are doing it for the first time, i want to thank eric for