Churchill as we were warming up. On the editorial director. Collaboration between new america and Arizona State university. We look at the applications of the impact of technology on society. Im also professor at the Contact School of journalism. Its really an honor and pleasure to have have you with us today eric. The splendid in the bio rate of father of churchill family and defiance during the blitz. As all of you probably know. And eric is also author of the books. Erik larson is the author of the splendid and the vile. And also the author of other books. I have read most of the rocks. Im not read your first book. I was intrigued looking at your biography. You run a book called the naked consumer about how companies spite on individual consumers produce actually a very touchy subject. So maybe ill have a come back and talk about that one. I also love your website. It is erik larson. Com. You have an alternative book as well. So welcome. Thank you for being with us. On it we should just get right to it. Because of this conversation today, i feel like i should ask the question venture is on everyones mind that is how did Winston Churchill celebrate Cinco De Mayo of mac im getting. Erik systems me. Host youre right. We did not discuss that. And all seriousness. We are having this on zoom. Ron lockdown. Quarantine or house arrest. To turn. I just want to read a paragraph in your book churchills notion of what constitutes an office was extensive. Often generals and ministers and Staff Members inviting themselves of meeting him while he was in the bathtub. If one of Favorite Places to work. He also liked working in bed pretty he spent hours are going for reports rated the type of. Always present was a fox. Other officials were requiring his attention. Replenished daily by his private secretary. Clearly Winston Churchill was a buddy who had mastered the art of working from home. [laughter]. Were all struggling to do that these days. They may not be the case that these conversations about your book usually start with a really gregarious about whether you think churchill had some information about working from home. Erik i would be in the bathtub if i wasnt interviewing with you right now. And Winston Churchill had no sense of when. And he would be completely naked doing it. He definitely can work from home. He would work in bed. He had his typist, his personal secretary nearby at all times. And taking notes. It would more than likely have a cigar and more than likely would have a tumbler full of water and whiskey. But nonetheless whiskey and water. Host its interesting that you talk about, that we tend to think about this epic relationship friendship, partnership, alliance or whatever we want to call it. Between fdr and churchill. The medications going back and forth between washington and london it was interesting reading a book about how the early conversations in dc when churchill first ventures into the office is about the drinking and sort of his putting him over the top of his personality i guess people were wondering, is a somebody we can take seriously. Erik people have have noted about churchill but, it is a mistake to ever thank that he was a drunk or alcoholic. He certainly was not. In fact is very close private secretary, wrote later on and he had never seen churchill drunk or even in any way limited by alcohol. And churchill himself said this taken a lot more than a whole that alcohol is taken out of me. This, he felt. One thing that certainly resonates today, churchill, and a lot of time that they had home checkers every weekend. Between two country homes. He would have been very likely quite at home with this whole situation. Host i did not know this, was struck by an checker was donated by somebody by camp david or something. More than traditional country home i suppose. Erik well before the war, i believe he donated it in 1914. So call me on that one but the idea being that the checker is to be used. It was a place where he could go and just enjoy the countryside another faculties restore. Churchill took that very differently. He descended to make it is country command post in every week and he had just in booze and fund fun. Host i was intrigued. I had read a lot about this first year of churchills being in office and that moment of the finest hour in the blitz and so forth. And recently are ready, about churchill, i feel like a lot of us even if were not specialists, we have been inundated with books about this great historical character. Im going to skip this book had not been written by you. A feeling you would have a new angle, new insight. Some new framing. Wasnt daunting at all. You write about churchill because there is only mix about Abraham Lincoln or what wasnt the drew you to it. Erik let me, is not actually churchill and jimmy to do this book. Churchill kind of became the main character in the light in this process. But i had decided for a variety of complicated reasons that will be very interesting to look into the people actually got through the day during the blitz. During that german era including a portion that we knew of sos. They do it. We had moved from seattle, my wife and i did. Then i kind of had this epiphany about what 911 had been like for new yorkers business. And perhaps watch it in real time. The world looked different. Not just in the sense of the sites but the violation having your home city attack. If this what made me start thinking about writing about how did they get to the blitz. How do people get through it. We write about the typical way they got through it. Then i thought why not the quintessential churchill and his family and his advisors, see exactly how to get through the day. Take a close look at the daytoday experience. Thats what really helped me get through it. Then i realized how much material had been good stuff, about churchill. Theres so much brilliant writing. I had to make a strategic decision on how i was going to research the idea of reading everything that had ever been written about churchill, which itself wouldve been a lot to ask. I realized it would take me a decade. And even then, by the time i got to the fifth year, i wouldnt be done. Because a more books would have come out about churchill. Try to make a strategic decision that i was going to simply what is much as i could get a sense of churchill during that time. And then i got into the archives. I felt most involved with the original materials and so forth. Thats how i parted down pretty otherwise it wouldve been overwhelmed. Every single book for the last four and a half years, i was thinking what am i doing. Host was very interesting to see how did feel a portrait, we were often seen churchill and the historical moment for the eyes of his personal secretary or his daughter or other advisors it sometimes are not quite, not necessarily see things through their respective as much. You mentioned tensions on writing. I never had realized just how prolific, the history that he wrote after the war. But throughout his life, illinois get himself out of the financial hole on his own writing. And so prolific prayed and commanded a lot of money is journalistic writings earlier. Erik is often is writing the got him out of the financial hole. Whats so remarkable as he was extremely well read. Extremely talented writer. And also quick. All of this one into that machine that churchills rain and all really helped him in his process to help lead the nation through this crisis that german air can read. Host s interesting that you said you gravitated toward this moment to think about what it would be like to be in 911, and then 57 nights of the president s and so forth. In the new book comes out in early 2020 and of course, clear now the entire world is fighting off this global pandemic. Its a challenge sources cited is quite different for more on the we see people reaching for the analogies. The analogy that is unquestionable is the need for leadership, to mobilize society meet the crisis at hand. And it requires extraordinary efforts and sacrifices. So i want to ask you about that. And whether there is a secret sauce of the leadership before before we get to that. Any sentencing, maintenance, 1940, amazing day in history, is 80 years from this coming sunday. I was also thinking about that to sentencing in describing that Winston Churchill was facing. Erik started in 1940. The dengue became prime minster. He wanted this most of all. He became Prime Minister. Something about rebellion in the house of commons. In consensus was the Prime Minister was not up to the challenge of dealing with hitler in germany. That was a day that hitler became a hot one they were at the low countries. In the situation, the mainstay of his life, also the darkest days in history of the world. Churchill felt this simply, added spice to the challenge. He was in charge of this great empire at such a dire time. He becomes Prime Minister writing and this is sort of the crucial moment also about the people he appointed in particular. The main characters in the this book, to simply the secondary posture. He was confronting, ex potential threats on the presumption that at the time was that once the consolidated with france, and the British Forces expelled about the chaos and so forth, it seemed quite certain Going Forward that the entire strategic picture would change. Prior to the france going, this would the planes would not have fighter xx course, would not have the endurance to fight all of the way through. And suddenly france, there were german airbases on the coast of the english channel. They were only minutes away from inland. And something that they had never even speculated on. So assuming you had that threat. They were very real, and hitler in germany was going to invade. In a cross channel attack pretty most people at that time thought it was absurd but if germany, and channel but was going to be an invasion. So if you can imagine, taking control of britain, at this time not only has hitler been in various countries and into europe and crushing them, and now suddenly is facing what could be a threat in terms of an invasion across the challenge. What a prospect for any normal person but not for jewish churchill. He took us on with the gusto clicking through. Host we were listening to snippets of the speech. We have all been exposed to it. And theres even a hollywood rendition. Obviously he had a gift, of language. When you think of the recipe for leadership, i think theres a tendency to focus on the ability to communicate and inspire through leveraging, maybe should not be underestimated read wasnt mostly that he was a great communicator. How much of the ratio o elements. Erik resolve are all familiar with the great lines. Thats not really the strong benefits of his speeches in fact at the time, that particular line do not necessarily have the same residence and is now for all of us. Basically, it was just a speech. But the thing that made churchill i think, in particular an excellent communicating, lunges news and information but also communicating also a sense of reason for courage is health instructive it was. This was a great storyteller. And in those opening moments, he would tell it as a story. This was what was happening and how it was unfolding. It was a thrilling story if you think about it. He would give his audience a situation, not happy talk, just to really down to earth sometimes to sobering into detailed. He scared the heck out of them. But then he would follow with comments about why people should be optimistic. Like how this problem with the bloods, and the dunker, would be for a potential, help this can be resolved. Positive for optimism. Not happy talk. And then he would come with this force at the end, metaphorically, they would have part of this. And were going to take whats going on god dammit. And were going to do this. Were going to be hitler. Going to be temp. But theres another element to churchills element. He being this great leader of history. He had this ability to put people, to place people into the granite ethic of grace history to make them feel that they were part of this great story as he would put it. And he made them feel part of it. He had a real understanding of the powers of his symbolic acts. Something as simple as refusing to call hitler by his name. He was in a man. That weekend fan. If you think about it, that is very powerful. If you dont identify or demonize your enemy, it makes them seem more like this presence. Often the distance. In the he would visit bombed out areas and showing himself there. Surveying events and talking to people expressing emotion. He was not afraid at all about showing emotion in public. But showing the result. He was there and he was engaging in a courageous act. He was showing defiance. Physics sort of contemporary example. I had to laugh when we saw mike pence at the mall clinic without a mask. Everyone else was wearing a mask. In the think of the optics of that. Possibly of killing to that. Churchill would be wearing it and charging around and say this is what we do. The power that symbolic act. If you engage with those acts, like you dont wear a mask, you should be wearing that mask. That undercuts your credibility as a leader. So we had the chief sense of the power what that meant. He certainly seemed to be fierce. I would argue that. Churchill was more than likely to go up and bring people with him. That is a kind of leader he was. Host ive actually been to the bunker, now is a nice museum in london. That was there for him. And of course to read about him spending time there in the rooftop. Erik one of the things that fascinates me. Host a lot of talk a little bit about, we have some real time information on how people responded to his speeches and so forth through this project and Mass Observation. Read britains war a book about the home front in describing this Mass Observation. Sociological project. Can you describe thats a little bit. In the equivalent of that today, would be maybe social media or Google Search it. Talk to us about that. Erik Mass Observation is a social Science Organization founded before the work. To create, they social psychology of ourselves. The idea being to recruit hundreds of people to just write about daily life in britain. The continuum things. They worked to kind of sharpen their skills and describe things on the rental place. In fact its kind of that kind of daily personal detail of whats going into these diaries. And there were giving their direst to look at the Mass Observation for analysis. And then that continue to keep a diary. What a tremendous resource. When my favorite diaries, was a young woman lydia who is, a clerk for Scotland Yard shes dating older men. Shes in a love affair with an older man. In her diary shows metaphorically with the broader culture, and brenton was experiencing and how they evolved. In 1940, she is terrified. Like everyone else in london. This is a shocking thing. And up until then, they were not going to be attacked for whatever reason and she is terrified. Over time, she becomes less terrified. There is a bop that landed outside her house. When the germans attacked night, they would drop one and they would set things on fire so it would search is a beacon for them to follow. They would fly at night. So if you didnt have moonlight you had have these fires. Someone landed outside of her house and she put out this bomb. She snuffing out and she was so proud of herself in simulated that suddenly she was no longer afraid. She had stood up to this awful thing from germany. She had the courage to do this. And meanwhile, her lover became more and more fearful. In my favorite moment of the story is as high facebook passestime passes,the here to b. In her lover says get down get down. And she says, i am not. Host that is great. In future tense, we are, usually focused on our relationship to technology. And the relationship between technology and society. Part of the reason i wanted to have a conversation with you other than the fact that i wanted or i am history buff and a fan of your books. There is sort of a future tense connection here. One of the other things that i was really struck by in reading your book however familiar, i may or may not have been with churchill is that you really portray him as a pattern of ukulele technologist but certainly like a tech enthusiast. The character of the professor in the book is an interesting one his role as part of churchills circle, if you just talk a little bit about that relationship. And the relationship with the radar or whatever it is that we are familiar with. Technology was a huge part of what turned the tide. And particularly the english contributions. When we think of churchill, we have this image of him from the distant path. And even people in his day, he was not necessarily Technology Savvy was on the first thing that comes to mind but in your book there was a kind of an interesting thing. Erik first of all, he loved the idea of secret weapons. There was potential for technology in terms of what country in support. This is part of his leadership, and his special sauce if you will. He appointed advisors that he knew would give him the strength to work. He didnt want people to suck up to him. To say oh yes oh yes pretty youre doing exactly the right thing. Frederick lindemann was one of the most thoroughly disliked men in the government. In the british government. And except from churchill. Because frederick, he shortly after churchill became into the government, he appointed him to be his personal scientific advisory. Very smart and savvy move. He gave churchill and insight. What things were happening. Within the defense establishment. But also, he gave frederick lindemann, of time to investigate anything he wanted to predict any issue. This was very powerful because it assured the churchill was going to get a straight story. Not something was fabricated or massage. Because frederick had this ability to look into anybodys affairs and bring back a report to churchill. In some cases even on his own memoranda churchill to sign. And its proved to be a very valuable thing. For example, it turned out that the british, to know how many planes, or aircraft, that germany had. It was important to know. But also they didnt know how many aircraft the raf has. That was another issue. That comes up in the song as well. They were in such a conundrum, the churchill said he would have to actually hire a criminal court judge to review the evidence on both sides. In this case of the murder because the bodies were chopped up into so many pieces. They had to reassemble them before they can make a determination. To know who the victims were and so forth. But he actually had to hire a judge to sit in on this statistically testaments, of the elements encourage and support to try to see and find out how many planes to they have and how many planes do we have. Thats one of those characters who gets short in the field. But it was crucial to the story. Host there is also the, i am sorry, im thinking about what you said about churchills not needing to surround himself with yesmen. I dont know if its also a cultural thing. It seems like you cannot have any press conference or Cabinet Meeting about everybody going around and thanking the leader are tremendous work. And in the Trump Administration they have taken that to a completely new level. But i think it is broader than that. More widespread. In the absence about situation on the frontlines and thanking churchill for his leadership. Host this a great analogy to make. I would argue that it serves the purpose today of frederick lindemann, the difference being the kind of administration, doesnt like that kind of input. They dont like having somebody like county out there. In sort of a loose cannon wrist churchill wanted them to be in everybodys face. This was to get out there and cause trouble. Host if we wanted to remind people to upload on the future. Dont forget about that. And then on this industry outside eric, given the beaucoup was sort of the productions. And might be a little more familiar. And we have characters. Once the u. S. Entered the war. I forget his name and former ceo of gm was brought in. Famously by fdr to ramp up production. Even if they didnt know they had how many planes they had, they realized that they needed a lot more rated so he was parted for that. That was another interesting thing. Erik and again i feel that larger wherever fitted churchill, somewhat, it was crucial in this era. The wonderful thing, first he was widely hated as well. And in that case, and immediately after churchill appointed david, the minister of the aircraft production. Because churchill recognized something or lyons. And that is, his military advisors early on, if britain was ever to be able to engage, it would require that they hold superiority potential for invasion would be very big. He realized also that to prevent germany to the degree of the aircraft and takedown their fighters. So to administer the aircraft, that was a specific goal of ramping up production. And starting to increase various program levels. And much more had to be done. He had never had an industrial object before. And in the newspapers and ramping up circulation and knowing the jury on everybody else. So now suddenly he has put in charge on this ministry of aircraft production and the whole point was to shake things up. Churchill knew that this guide was hated. He was incredibly smart and energetic. He came through. To an incredible degree. Really kind of save the day. It was not exactly the technology, but he really understood not the manufacturer of the aircraft, interested the motivation of people. He made sure that raf violent, actual pilots, people who actually had their wings, would visit the aircraft industry or Manufacturing Companies to talk about what the planes were doing and how valuable it was that they were doing it. And he was sort of, had the power of symbolic gestures as well. They would bring german aircraft carriers and they were shut down. He would put them on the back of a truck and drive them through towns. Just for simply reclaiming the aircraft and bring it back. We do that, we brought down this german aircraft. Just a little detail. Host one of the things that is easy to forget is the longevity that churchill had of the historical scene. He doesnt become Prime Minister until 1940. As you say and by that point, did you see he follows. Okay 65 years old. He had been famous character even in his youth because of his experience in the wars in his writing about it. So he is a character that is also amazing. So did your research change in the image of church all you had then . I was wondering if that led you wanting to write more about this character. No. Thats an interesting question. In writing about churchill i like tim then. One him then but that is an interesting story in and of itself that changing that perception it fleshed out my sense of what churchill was all about. It made him seem to me a richer experience from world war i he formed my research in this current book to see more of a nuanced character a flawed character which he was. Deeply flawed and make no mistake you could criticize churchill for many things postworld war ii goals and some of the things he did prior but during this period he was the leader of the moment and the man of the hour. And the experience during world war i was important to know because he screwed up big time in that Prior Experience now here he was coming into this role with this apparent existential threat. So how he muster the confidence to do so is a tremendous story. But it did not lead me to do this at all. You talk about him being a flawed character and i get the sense also in the roberts biography his thinking seemed outdated and nostalgic and in the thirties he is seen as preposterous and overthetop partly because he beats the drums and to be more temperate but if you think of the kind of leadership that we need from the Democratic Society is facing an existential crisis is the persona and the traits that you need in the leader different from the kinds of leaders and traits that you want in the time of normalcy . 1940 it turns into churchill who is largerthanlife and that character was so out of the mainstream like there was no more choice of what was so poignant from the churchill protagonist he is voted two months after a month before the war ends in japan. So yes its less learning about this 80 years on but to carry the country through this experience it was a realization even then but there was too much melodrama and this type of leadership. But clearly that was a profound sense that Neville Chamberlain was not up to task and the British Public at the end just before the end of the war and to be confident and strong. Maybe thats not what we need now. Maybe we need a little more stability to manage the postwar era. And that they assume certain kinds of leadership. And some generals are suited for the battlefield. A couple of questions about coventry. You here off and on about this im not exactly up on urban legend but they are said the impending attack by germany he chose not to warn them because that would make the german realize the code had been cracked any truth to that story . Not with coventry not that i have found that thanks to code breaking and deciphering the communications there is a big wave coming it was called called moonlight sonata but the presumption was among the intelligence of presumption was it was going to be on london but actually it was one night earlier. A report was done in full detail meant for the Prime Minister and give it given to him in the car as he was leaving town. And it was so alarming to suggest this massive raid that would occur against london that night he came back and was on the rooftop waiting for the raid that he feared would come but its not coming to london is coming to coventry he did know it was coming but he presumed the target would be london he had no idea it would be coventr coventry. And on the subject of coventry you describe the aftermath movingly thank you for joining us and found that your description from the current moment especially the speech where he says let us bow before god to be better friends and neighbors because we have suffered this together. And from writing this book and to be critical in times of tragedy . The modern day equivalent but i think governor, one thing i have been impressed by is the emphasis things are improving with us hospitalizations those are coming down in new york state hes always very careful to emphasize how tragic and disaster all these deaths we all know that we are in this to make it subside. He is always reminding us of the losses were still experiencing he never loses that perspective and thats very important. Another aspect of leadership and churchill had this as well but to be an effective leader you have to have a strong and wellbalanced moral compass and to have that ancillary affect that you can express empathy and that something churchill was very good about he would be the first to translate but also deeply empathic on a very personal level from what they were experiencing but it was very moving and very christian in the best sense i found very important. So we say a lot of nice things about churchill in terms of him rising to the occasion in the first year in meeting the moment the book pays little attention to unhappiness of churchill. I can go through the intelligence reports now to tell you what i found but the people that were satisfied with him there were moments when they were less satisfied it depends on which you want to talk about but the overall sense i got from the intelligence reports his people were very impressed with him and very satisfied with his leadership. So certainly in a time of war and obviously over time people adjusted that you were talking about 9 11 but two months after 9 11 in november 2001 george w. Bush Approval Rating stayed at 91 percent here in the us. So that factors with a global pandemic. One important thing to note is that he had overwhelming public support and this is something that they had to acknowledge that he had a great reservoir of popularity that persisted at least it is. A couple of people watching and this was also my reaction found mary churchills diary was an amazing addition to your book people are asking can you talk more about the diary . Has this been used before another books . Mary churchill is my favorite character. Her diary was a tremendous asset working on this book. When i got permission to use it from her daughter come at that point i was one of only two people who looked at it. It is very new in terms of new material. What i love about this she is very smart and astute observer of everything she adored her father she was 17 at the time and he came under criticism periodically for perceived errors. But she was a wonderful observe observer. What i really liked it she was exactly the kind of presence that i was trying to corral for this book through the lens i was trying to take the reader through. How did they do this on a daily basis she was a very smart and articulate observer also a 17 yearold girl who like to have fun. They are references of snogging in the hayloft and going to parties this was a lovely counterpoint at one point her and her friend resolved they would go do all shakespearean sonnets one per day during the summer i dont think they completed the mission but it is wonderful and charming addition to the book. We have a question from victoria how she is struck by a churchills appreciation and understanding of history what he did reference from Abraham Lincoln so you can say a little bit about that but is somebody who appreciates history what are you reading these days while you are homebound . When it comes to reading for pleasure i read for escape. I love thrillers i have to qualify that a little bit. The lord of the flies. I read that for whatever godforsaken reason but it turned out to be a comforting read for this. If im in sequestered in my house now but now with a bunch of Primal School boys so that turned out to be interesting for a need distraction because i love a good thriller the couple next door terrific and sharp edgy thriller. Thats my mission right now. This is such a pleasure. On a personal note i wanted to mention i have read what of your other books and in the garden of peace i had to fight a personal connection because i grew up in mexico i am a mutt. My mother was american when my father went in a school in mexico city in the fifties he was offered the Administrative Office job by somebody named alfred stern and got to know martha died. As a kid i would hear the stories in this character was a great interest in the Us Government and to read your book as a daughter of the Us Ambassador to berlin 20 years before that it was an interesting corroboration and postscript on the story. Interesting. Thank you for that. There is a little sidebar. Thank you all for watching we do these tuesdays and thursdays at 4 00 oclock eastern please check out the events page at new america and join us. Thank you so much. Thank you to everyone who is joining us today from around the world. I am a professor at department of africanamerican studies and i am thrilled to be moderating todays conversation and i want to thank the organizer and sponsor of haymarket books that are the extraordinary collectionay