Transcripts For CSPAN2 Erik Larson The Splendid And The Vile 20240713

Arizona state university. It is really an honor and pleasure to have you with us today, your latest book, a saga of churchills family and defiance and as all of you probably know i am sure eric is the author fabulous books at dead weight in the garden of thieves, thunderstruck, double and white city. I have read most of your books but ive not read your first book, i was intrigued looking at your biography that you wrote a book called the naked consumer how companies spot on individual consumers, its a very future tense subject, maybe well have you come back and talk about that. I also love on your website, all of you should listen and check out, i think its air clarkson books. Com, i love on your website you have an alternative biography which is fantastic and you describe it as a book that you really like it nobody else did. I seriously doubt the foot im going to take a look at that. So welcome and thank you for having me on. Thank you for viewing with us. I think we should get right to it and because im having this conversation today of all days i feel like i should ask the question that im sure is on everyones mind and that is how did Winston Churchill celebrate cinco de mayo. Ron house arrest, choose your turn in the face of the Global Pandemic. I just want to read a paragraph from your book, you wrote churchills notion of what constituted an office is what expands us, generals, ministers in fact members would find themselves meeting with churchill while he was in his bathtub, one of his Favorite Places to work. He also liked working in bed despite hours there each morning going through dispatches in the court with a seated nearby, always present was the box, the black dispatch box with the correspondent in minutes from others acquiring his attention. Replenished they rebu daily by s private secretary. He was someone who had mastered the art of working from home and we are all struggling to do these days. Maybe not the place of these conversations usually start but im really curious if you think churchill mortals from working on him. When i was doing the zoom interview with you right now i would be in the bathtub. Churchill had no sense and very likely wouldve been completely naked doing it. He was an ace work at home her and he would get up late in the morning and he would work in bed and he had his personal secretary nearby and at all times with the typewriter taking notes and he would more than likely would have, this is very appropriate for today, a tumbler full of water in whiskey, nonetheless whiskey and water. It is interesting that you talk about we tend to think of this epic relationship, friendship, partnership, alliance whatever we want to call it between fdr and churchill in the communication going back and forth between washington and london and the summits. But it was interesting reading your book how the early conversations in d. C. When churchill first enters office is about the drinking and the overthetop nature of his personality and i guess people were wondering is if somebody we can take seriously. Drinking is something that people have noted about churchill but its a mistake to ever think he was a drunk or an alcoholic, he was certainly not. His private secretary wrote later on that he had never seen churchill drunk or even in any way be limited by alcohol. Churchill even said that he was criticized for drinking and he said its taken a lot more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken out of me. So thats how he felt. Not exactly working from home aspect. Some that resonates today, churchill spent a lot of time at the Prime Minister every week and in dividing his time between two country homes. He wouldve been very likely quite at home with the whole situation. I did not know this, checkers was donated by somebody, the government, was not correct as a camp david, more of a traditional country home i suppose. In america, before the war, well before the war, i believe he donated in 1914, dont quote me on that one, the idea being the checkers was to be used, no work was to be done. It was a place Prime Ministers could enjoy the countryside and let their faculty restore, churchill of course took that very, very differently, he decided to make this country a command post and every weekend with guest and booze and fun. I have to confess, when i first heard this is the subject of your next book, i was intrigued, i feel like i had read quite a lot about this first year of churchills being in office in the finest hour in the blitz and so forth. And recently i read Andrew Roberts biography of churchill and i feel like a lot of us, even if were not specialist, weve been inundated with books about the great historical character and i might escape this book had it not been written by you but having read your other books, i felt like hes going to have a new angle, new insight, some new framing but was it daunting at all, did you write about churchill because you thought there were too many books written about Abraham Lincoln or what was it the dream. I was totally undaunted and let me be clear, it was not churchill that drew me too do this book, churchill became and entered the party a little bit late in the process because i happen i had decided for complicated reasons that it would be very interesting to look into how it was that people got through the day during the blitz in the German Campaign and that portion of the blitz, how did they actually do it, the reason was that my wife and i had move from seattle to new york city. No sooner that i moved to new york city i had an epiphany of what 9 11 had been like for new yorkers versus realtime had experience. Its a world of different, not just the sense of sight but the violation of having your home city attacked and thats what made me started thinking about how people got to the blitz, if you can imagine 57 consecutive nights of bombing, how did people get through, my original thought, maybe the typical moment, so i thought about that and i said wait a minute, why not about churchill, his family and his advisors to see how they got to the day, when nobody actually done that, nobody decided to take a close look of the daytoday experience and thats a really help me get through. Was i dante, 0 yes. How much material had written about churchill and how much good stuff also, Andrew Roberts, hes my favorite at the churchill scholars, hes a brilliant writer. So much had been done that i had to make a strategic decision of how i would search the idea of everything that had ever been written about churchill or bar churchill which would have been a task and i realized to be a fool it would take me a decade and even then the time haycock toothed at the would not be done because eight more books would come out about churchill, i made a strategic decision, i was simply going to read as much as i could and get a sense of churchill in the landscape in that. And then i would write into the archives to see what was there and thats the most comfortable with original materials and so forth. And thats how i. Things down and otherwise i wouldve been overwhelmed and every single day for the last four and half years that i did not ask myself, what am i doing. It was very interesting to see how, it did feel like a portrait of churchills orbit, you are looking and we were often seen churchill and the historical moment through the eyes of his personal secretary or his daughter or other advisors that sometimes we dont necessarily see things through their perspective in some of the other accounts. You mentioned his own writing, one thing that astonished me was his biography and i had never realized just how prolific, with a history he wrote after the work but throughout his life he would always get himself out of financial holes by his own writing you so prolific and commanded a lot of money for his journalistic. His writing that got him out of the financial hole. This is something about churchill that is a remarkable, he was extremely well read, an extremely talented writer, and often a quick container. In all this went into the machine, churchills brain and it really helped him in trying to lead the nation through this crisis at the german air campaign. It is interesting that you said you gravitated toward the moment by thinking about what it mustve been like in new york and 9 11 and multiply that by 57 nights of the blitz and so forth and then your book comes out in early 2020 and of course we are now the entire world is fighting off the Global Pandemic which is an exponential challenge to our society that is quite different from war although we see people reaching for the analogies, the analogy is unquestionable and the need for leadership to mobilize society to meet the crisis at hand that requires extraordinary efforts and sacrifices. I want to ask you about that and whether there is a secret sauce with the churchill leadership, before we get to that and you started alluding to this, set the scene of may 10, 1940, an amazing day in history its where your account starts, 80 years from this coming sunday, im thinking about that in preparation, set the scene in terms of describing what the uk and Winston Churchill were facing. In 1940 which is when the action starts in my book was the day that churchill became Prime Minister, the greatest day in his life, it wasnt the thing he wanted most of all, he became preminister, rebellion in the house of commons or the consensus was that the Prime Minister was not up to the challenge of dealing with hitler in germany. In the same day was the day the hitler, the phony work used to be a phony war became a hot shooting were when hitler invaded the countrys. So heres the situation where churchill, the greatest day of his life and also one of the darkest days in the history of the world. This did not daunt churchill, this is like added spice to the challenge, he was in charge of this great empire as such a dire time it thrilled him. He becomes the Prime Minister and this is a crucial element because we talk about the people in particular in the main character in this book and i think in other words have been relegated to the secondary and he could be a candidate but he immediately is confronting you talk about exponential threats, the presumption at the time was that once germany consolidated over france in the forces being expelled, it was developed about the chaos and dunker and so forth. Once france was going to fall, the entire strategic picture would change. Prior to france falling and the assumption was that france would always stand in this would be the planes that would not be fighter experts and would not have the endurance to fly all the way to britain. Suddenly with france falling, there were german airbases on the coast of the English Channel in just minutes away from england and minutes away from london something that planners had never even speculated on. Some you have that threat in very real fear that hitler in germany was going to invade in a cross channel attack, this seemed to most people at that time to be a certainty. And if they had superiority, it was going to be innovation. If you can imagine taking control of britain, at this time would not only has hitler began invading various countries in europe and succeeding in crushing them, now hes facing an exponential threat across the channel. What a prospect but not for churchill. He took this on with agusta who came through time and time aga again. We were listening to the speech and his oratory and weve all been exposed to and there had been hollywood renditions. And obviously he had a gift of language that when you think of his recipe for leadership, i think theres a tendency to focus on the oratory and the ability to communicate and inspire through the english language should not be underestimated but was it most simply that he was a good communicator or how much of the ratio of the elements in success was that . It was a mix of things, were all familiar with the great lines that we never had so much by so many by sophia, i would argue thats not the strong point of his speeches and at the time, that particular line did not necessarily have the same resignations of the does not for us and its basically just a speech. But the thing that made churchill in particular excellent as communicating not just news and communication but communicating a sense of reason for courage, how his speeches are. The opening speech about dunkirk. Its a great storyteller, he was telling as you heard in his opening moment, he was telling it as a story, this is what was happening, this is how it was unfolding, a thrilling story if you think about it. What he would do, he would give his audience an appraisal and not happy talk, just a downtoearth, sometimes too sober into detailed and he scared the heck out of them on occasion. Then he would follow with comments about real grounds to white people should be optimistic, how this problem of dunkirk and potential for german invasion, how this can be resolved in a positive reason for optimism. Not happy talk, real grounds for optimism. And then become a rhetorical flourish at the end and have people rising from their seats and say all be part of this, were going to take this guy on dammit and this is how were gonna be hitler. That was a very powerful thing but theres another element to churchill leadership. One is this becomes a play in terms of his ability to communicate. Him being a great leader of history, he had an ability to put people into the grand epic of history to make them feel as if they were part of a great island story as you would put it. Thats very important to make them feel part of the thing and a great tradition and also he had a real understanding of a symbolic act. This is something as simple as using to call hitler by his name. He would say that man or that wicked man. If you think about it, its a very powerful thing, if you dont identify and you dont demonize your end, makes you seem like a presence from a distance. But then the under and of this continuum, even though the power and the bond that areas insuring himself there and surveying the damage, talking to people, expressing emotion of weeping in public, and also showing his resolve and in people being there and engaging in a courageous act and showing defiance, it was a powerful thing. And just to give you a contemporary example. I had to laugh the other day when we sell Vice President mike pence at the clinic without a mask and everybody else around him is wearing a mask into think of the optics of that, possibly appealing with the american maybe, but churchill would be wearing the mask and charging around and saying this is what we do. In the symbolical acts. If you engage in symbolic acts that creates distance, you dont wear a mask when your audience knows damn well you should wear the mask, its a problem, that undercut your credibility as a leader. Churchill had this acute sense of power of symbolic acts. Another example by the way, he certainly seemed to be confused. Churchill was more than likely to go on the nearest roof and to bring people with him including staff. That is where he was. Ive actually been to the bunker that theyve expanded to a nice museum in london, i was there for him and of course he was not going to spend that much time there because he was under the rooftop. One of the things that fascinates me, we need to talk a little bit about this as a source, the sense of which we have some realtime information on how people responded to his speeches and so forth through the project of Mass Observation, something i first read by daniel todd lynn, the home front in describing the Mass Observation phenomenon. It was a sociological project, can you describe that little b bit, i dont know what todays equivalent would be, i dont know if it be social media or peoples google searches,. A social scientist organization and to create a social psychology of ourselves, the idea to recruit hundreds to write about daily life in britain, the continuing things, for your credibility to sharpen their skills in their mantelpiece, it is that daily the cut of whats going to be and the Mass Observation in the worst part, the virus to continue, what a tremendous result, one of my favorite virus of the Mass Observation group, a young woman, Olivia Crockett who is a clerk for scotland, she is dating a married man, shes in this love affair with an older man and her diary shows a metaphorically what the broader culture in britain was excreting and how they evolved. Here comes a blitz in 1940, she is terrified, again like everybody else in london, this is a shocking thing, up until in the belief was for out of her reason it is not going to be attacked by german bombers directly. She is terrified, overtime she becomes less terrified and its a Pivotal Moment for her when they land outside her house and the germans attack at night and they would first drop a lot of things in their bombs inc. Is in setting things on fire, the flames would serve as a beacon for bombers to follow because its an era when flying at night in the moonlight, if you did not have moonlight you need fires. So she was outside her house, she put out the bombs and snuff this out, she was so proud of herself, so we lighted that suddenly she was no longer afraid, she had stood to this assault from germany and she had the courage to do this and put this thing out. Meanwhile her lover, she was quite candid about her lover in their sex life. Her lover became more and more fearful in my favorite moment as the story proceeds in time passes, as an airway begins to occur in the hereto bombs falling, it has a distinct sound, the hereto bombs falling and her lover tells her to get down, get down and she says that is great. So as i mentioned future tense, were usually focused on our relationship to technology and the impact of technology in society, part of the reason i wanted to have this conversation with you, other than the fact that im a fan of your book and a history buff, there is a future tense connection which one of the other things i was struck by reading your book, however, familiar i may or may not of been with churchill is that you really portray him, i dont know if youd call him a technologist in todays words but a tech enthusiast and the character professor lindemann is an interesting one, his goal as churchill circle, if you can talk a little bit about that relationship in churchills relationship assigned to technology, clearly weather was radar or everything that were familiar with, technology was a huge part of turning the tide in the allies in particular english contributions. That was not something that we think of, we have an image of churchill to figure from a differendistant past, he is not necessarily, Technology Savvy is not something that comes to mind but in your book there was an interesting theme. Yes first of all he loved the idea of secret weapons, he was a big believer in the potential for technology in the significant edge and so forth. Toward the end, one of the advisors appointed, his leadership, his special sauce if you will. Man the government and the district consider to be the british government. And except maybe churchill and churchills wife. Maybe the children week because he never forgot the birthdays. But he was, shortly after churchill became to be his personal scientific advisor. Its a very smart and savvy move. Because he give him insight into more pathological things are actually happening. But then the defense establishment but also they gave them the ability to investigate anything he wanted to. Erik any issue. And this was very powerful because assured that churchill was getting the straight story. Not something that was fabricated massaged rated because frederick had this authority to look into anybodys affairs. And bring back a report to churchill. In some cases he actually wrote his own memorandum. Which proved to be a very valuable thing. For example, it turned out that the british, they didnt know how many planes was there. Didnt know how many aircraft germany had. Thats an important thing to know in terms of what kind of offensiveness they could raise. That was another issue. There was such a conundrum that churchill decided he would have to initially hire a criminal court judge to review the evidence on both sides. A judge who actually handled the jigsaw murder because the bodies were adopted into so many pieces, they couldnt make a determination. But anyway, they hired a judge to sit in on this meeting of the minds. Statistically testaments of the cognizance of these elements and codes and so forth to try to determine how many planes to these people have. And how many we have. Thats fascinating. But these one of these characters who in history, he was crucial to the story. Host there is also, im sorry, im thinking of the part where you said churchill needing to surround himself with yesmen. I dont know if its also a cultural shift. But you cannot have any press conference or cabinet meetings without everybody going around and thanking the leader. Tremendous. And i think in the trump administration, its a completely new level but i think its broader than that. I dont have the sense that was on the frontlines thinking churchill for his greatest efforts. Erik i would argue that anthony serves that purpose today of frederick of the time. The difference being the administration does not have a kind of input. They would like to have someone like him to have sort of a loose cannon but as churchill, wanted Frederick Lindemann to be in everybodys face. This was his mandate to get out of there and cause trouble and he did. Host i want to remind people that you can have questions on our q a feature. Dont forget about that. And then on the sort of industrial side eric, you have another guy he was sort of the production guy. Hes an interesting character two. Benefield might might be a little bit more familiar. And we had a character, i forget his name by the former ceo of gm was brought in. Sort of to ramp up production by the fbi. In angus beaverbrook, they didnt know they had how many planes they had. They needed a lot more. That was another interesting relation. Erik again, i feel that in a larger biographies the churchill, he tends to sort of get started somewhat short changed. It is crucial, wonderful thing, he was a rebel that was heated as well. Early on, if they were, or ever to be able to have an invasion it would require first that they hold the office. The potential for innovation would be very big indeed. But here we are, to prevent germany from getting superiority is to the use of the Fighter Aircraft pretty take on their aircraft. So the administer aircraft, he expects the goal of ramping up the russians, or starting to increase in on the various program level. To recognize much more could be done they needed vast numbers. Industrial object before. He was a newspaper guy. And ramping up circulation and knowing the jury and everybody else. So now suddenly hes put in charge in this ministry of aircraft production parade and the whole thing was to shake things up. Churchill knew this guy was hated. He was incredibly energetic and smart and if anybody do this job, it would be him. And he did. Eight to an incredible degree. And really kind of saved the day. So exactly on the technology front. But he really understood not a manufacturing aircraft. Also the motivation of people prayed and one of the interesting things that he did was he made sure that our af pilots, actual pilots who actually have the rings would visit aircraft industry, and Manufacturing Companies to talk about weapon planes and what they were doing and how valuable it wasnt they were doing it. He was sort of a very good at the power of symbolic gestures as well. They would bring german aircraft, they were shot down, they would put them on the back of the truck and drive them through towns. Just simply reclaiming this aircraft and bring it back. The point was to show people that we got them. This german aircraft. Just a little detail. Host one of the things that is also easy to forget is the longevity that churchill had in the historical scene pretty doesnt become Prime Minister until 1930. And as you say, by that point he was 65. But even famous character even in his youth because of his experience in world war. In his writings about it. And he is a high position in the cabinet and world war i was some controversies involving others. Erik he gets kicked out. Erikhost i was putting it nice. So jackson is a question to the audience and she is asking, an interesting question about the longevity. Churchill was the first admiralty and during i think of the sinking and so he is a character in that week. That was also amazing. And so amys question, was did you research for this book change the image of churchill that you had for now and you portray way. I was wondering if that was one of the reasons that you want to write more about this character. Erik the answer to your questions no credit and when they answered question, very interesting question. In writing about churchill and the book about this, actually i liked churchill even then. I know we screwed up. And thats very interesting story in of itself. Rather than changing my perception of him, it flushed out my sense of what churchill was really all about. And i made him seem to be a richer, his experience during world war i informed my research in this current book by making him say more than a nuance character. Flawed character, which he was. He was deeply flawed. To make one mistake, that you can criticize churchill for many things especially in this postworld war ii and also in some of the things he did prior. He was. But during this period, he was in fact a leader at the moment. A man of the hour. In his experience during world war i, was, to know, he screwed up big time. That the Prior Experience and coming into this world during this even i think actually graver apparent x potential threat. How he mustered he mustered the confidence to do so is a tremendous story rated. Host you talk about him being a flawed character and an arch turned imperialist. I was get the sense this really comes across in the robert biography to that even as her in his day, he seems somewhat a little bit outdated and overly nostalgic. And in the 30s, he seen by many people by a bit dramatic. And partly it is because he is beating the drums on the threats. In other people have more temperate feeling. I do wonder if you think about the kind of leadership we needed our facing, the Democratic Society is facing an exit potential crisis. In the persona and what you need, neighbor and the difference in the kinds of leaders that you want in a time of normalcy. In 1940, the attorney churchill was sort of this largerthanlife and character that had been so out of the mainstream and then caught up. Its like they had more choices in a way. Then one of the things that they were so poignant about the whole saga of the war from the british perspective in the churchill side is that he does voted out of office. Two months after up in a month before the war in japan. It is so unimaginable. And learning about this, 80 years on that would happen to somebody is sort of carried the country through this experience on the shoulders. So is there a realization even then this is not the kind of or too much melodrama in this type of leadership for peace times. Erik but clearly, with churchill then, was a profound sense and clearly the British Public at the end of the war, just before the end of the war, had the information about churchill, while he was great he was confident and strong and really able to rally of the public. Maybe that is not what we need now. Maybe now we need a little bit more stability. In little bit to manage the postwar era. People are looking for certain kinds of leadership. Certain generals for being out there on the battlefield. So yeah. Host there a couple of questions here that are interesting and something that you hear often on about. Not clear exactly on this pretty tom harmon asked, mom indicated that churchill was about an impending attack about germany ands chosen not to warn the target read because that would make the germans relies cracked. Any truth to that story. Erik not in the case of coventry. The story is this. Thanks to deciphering germany communications, theres a big thing called moonlight was a code name. Whatever it this thing was going to go, the presumption was among the air intelligence was british air intelligence, the presumption was the attack was going to be on london. And they thought it was going to be in a particular when i earlier. Churchill, a report was done full detail and was meant for the Prime Minister. It was given to him apparently on one account, came to him and in the car as he was leaving town. It was suggesting the there was this massive raid that was 20 occur against london that night pretty he came back, in fact he was on the rooftop. I think it was the airman street building, on the rooftop waiting for this huge grade. They feared would come. But is not coming from london, is coming to coventry. He does note of it, and he presumed that the target was going to be london. He had no idea that coventry was going to be. Host also on the subject of coventry, he described very movingly. David peters, thank you for joining us. And he said he found your description of the aftermath of the bombing, or the current particulate of the speech of the bishop at the first mass funeral crisis less fell before god to be better friends and neighbors in the future because we have suffered this together. Thank you for providing this book. Whatever principles w found that have been found in the terman modernday equivalent of that bishops speech. Erik nothing frankly from the federal government but i would think that we actually with governor andrew cuomo, one thing but i have been impressed by with his daily briefings, is his emphasis on things are improving. Hospitalization is so forth the numbers are coming down in new york state. Theres always very careful to emphasize how tragic these deaths night after night. He has never let us all forget the fact that even though we are in this, this virus to make it subside, hes always reminding us of the grave losses. He never loses that current perspective. Thats a very important thing. Another great thing leadership. Churchill had this as well. To be an effective leader, i think you have to have a strong will balance moral compass. So the effect of having a strong moral compass is that you are also able to sort of experience and express empathy. And it is something that churchill was very very good about. He managed arranging for. But he also was deeply impassive and understood the mary personal level of what the people of britain were experiencing. I think very very moving. And very christian the best sense. I found very important to make reference to that. Host sourcing a lot of nice things about churchill in terms of his rising to the occasion in the first year making the moment. Janet asks a question, she writes in, the book gives very little attention about the happiness. Was indeed very little of this questionnaire. Erik i cant go through of all of this and tell you what i found. But the over all since then i got the people were very satisfied with churchill. But there were some who are more satisfied something or less. Even on you wanted to talk about. The liberal sense that i got about the public and churchill from Mass Observation was people were very impressed with him. And very satisfied and happy with his leadership. There is critics. But overwriting people are happy with him. Host is a valuable around the plague. In fact that you mentioned and obviously over time the people are satisfied. And four years later, and you were talking about 911. I think we can forget that two months after 911, in november of 2001, george w. Bush Approval Ratings student 91 percent. In the u. S. So that kind of effect, obliviously in a Global Pandemic, and the current environment is not necessarily going to play out in the same way. C1 another point about churchills of the reason he became in first place was because he had overwhelming public support. Erik and this is something that that the levels had to acknowledge that he had this right reservoir of popularity. At least through this. Bettyehost a couple of people watching this is my reaction to write and felt like mary churchills value was an amazing value to the book. If somebody is asking can you talk a little bit about the diary. Has this been used before in another book. Erik is my favorite character the diarrhea think is a tremendous asset in working on this book. When i got permission to use it from her daughter, i was at that. 1 of two people who have ever looked at it. Its very new in terms of new material. Her perspective. First of all, shes very smart, astute and accurate observer of everything around her and she adored her father. She was 17 at the time. For perceived errors, but the thing that i really love about mary and she was exactly the kind of presence or observer i was trying to corral for this book. I was trying to find out how did they get through this thing on a daily basis. His in addition to being very smart and articulate, she also was a 17 yearold girl who really had fun and there are references to snogging in the hayloft, going to parties iron this was a lovely counterpoint and she had a friend of hers that they were going to learn all of the shakespearean times. One per day during that summer. I dont think they completed the mission. But anyway, just a wonderful charming character. And actually makes the unit. Host lastly, a question from victoria who talks about how shes not going churchills appreciation of history, something that maybe was previously reference to Abraham Lincoln can use a little bit about that but also her question is what are you just somebody who appreciates history choosing to rated these days while you are, found in new york. Erik i will tell you that when it comes to reading for project or in this particular time, im doing the thrillers, i love thrillers. I just finished reading lord of the flies right around before. But i reread it. Actually turned out to be a really great comforting kind of read this. To be on the island and killing each other. So actually turned out to be a very nice distraction. I love a good thriller. One of my favorite things coupled next door, really terrific nice sharp edgy thriller. Thats my mission right now. Host this is been such a pleasure. On a personal note, i wanted to mention i read a lot of other books, and in the garden of beasts, was really a benefit on a personal connection to it because my father, a group in mexico. My mom was american my father was mesquite mexican. When my father was going to night school, in mexico city in the 60s, he was offered like an Administrative Office job by semi named alfred stern and got to know of martha dodd. When i was a kid, is really read these interesting stories about these people. He was studying law at night and working the day this character who turns out to be a great interest to the u. S. Government. As a dirigible or martha dodd is a daughter of the u. S. Ambassador in berlin, 20 years before that and quite the character. It was an interesting collaboration. An postscript on the stories that i would hear from my father. My thinking for that. Sidebar and thats pretty but think is much bring thank you to all of you. Erik just thank you. Host thank you for watching this, we do these tuesdays insult and thursdays. At 4 00 oclock eastern. The check out our page in the new america. Come join us for more of these. And eric, thank you so much. Erik thank you. Host take everybody and thank you. Tonight at 8 30 p. M. Eastern, bestselling thriller writer david talks about his writing career in books on in depth. Watch book tv, on cspan2. Here are some of the current bestselling nonfiction books according to the washington post. The latest whim or untamed. After that is that splendid in the vial. Eric larsons sitting Prime Minister Winston Churchills leadership during the london blitz. Erik larson the splendid and the vile. Then the life of birds followed by charlie, illustrated fables. In wrapping up our look at some of the bestselling nonfiction books according to the washington post, in roberts Hidden Valley road. The profile of the Galvin Family which consisted of 12 children, half of whom were diagnosed with discursive entrance gets a venue. Some of these authors had appeared book tv and you can watch them online, the booktv. Org. And on cspan2 book tv, more television for serious readers. Welcome. Im virginia prescott, host. And tonight am speaking with Bettye Kearse, the last history of the presence black family. Theres a link in the text box to the right of your screen is also a link provided on the website. As we are talking about we do invite you to take your questions and in the q a on your screen and i will try to get to them and spans them as time allows. Doctor Bettye Kearse is a