Have you with us today, aeroquip brings us here is your latest book the splendid and the vile, a saga of churchills family and defiance during the blitz as all of you probably know i am sure eric is the author of fabulous book a deadweight in the garden, thunderstruck, double in the white city, i read most of your books but i am not read your first book, i was intrigued looking at your biography that you wrote a book called the naked consumer, how Companies Buy on individual consumers which is a very future tense subject, maybe well have you come back and talk about that, i also love on your website which all of you listening to checkout, i think its eric larson books. Com, i love on your website you have an alternative biography which is fantastic and you describe the naked consumer is a book that you really like that nobody else did. I seriously doubt that but im going to take a look at that. So welcome and thank you for having me in being with us. I think we should get right to it and because were having this conversation today of all days i feel like we should ask the question that im sure is on everyones mind, how did Winston Churchill celebrate cinco de mayo. [laughter] i am kidding. That was something. That was not one of the things we discussed, and all seriousness, were having this event opposed to in person which i wouldve loved because were on lockdown, quarantine, house arrest, choose your term in the face of the Global Pandemic. , i just want to read a paragraph from your book, churchills notion of what constituted an office was expansive, often generals, ministers and Staff Members would find themselves meeting with churchill why he was in his bathtub and one of the Favorite Places to work. He also liked working in bed and spent hours there each morning going through dispatch and report with the typist nearby, always present was the box, a black dispatch box the hud minutes from other officials acquiring his attention. Replenished daily by his private sector. Clearly Winston Churchill was somebody who had mastered the art of working from home. This is something were all struggling to do these days. So maybe not the place that these conversations usually start but im curious to know whether churchill would have lets put it this way, if i were Winston Churchill going to exhume meeting, i would be in the bathtub and he had no sense of man and he wouldve been completely naked doing it. The guy would get up relatively late in the morning and he would work in bed, he had his personal cirque return nearby with a typewriter taking notes, he would more than likely he would have this is very corporate for today, a tumbler full of water and whiskey, whiskey and water. Its interesting, you talk about we tend to think of this epic relationship, partnership, alliance between fdr and churchill in the communication going back and forth between washington and london in the summits. But it was interesting reading your book how the early conversation in d. C. When churchill starts off is about the drinking in the overthetop patron of his personality and i guess people were wondering, is a somebody we can take seriously . Drinking is something that people have noted about churchill but it is a mistake to ever think he was a drunk or an alcoholic, he certainly was not, in fact his private secretary wrote later on that he had never seen churchill drunk or even in any way limited by alcohol, churchill himself said they were criticizing for drinking and he said lets taken a lot more out of alcohol then alcohol is taken out of me. One thing that was working at the home aspect, one thing, churchill in this. Spent a lot of time playing checkers every weekend and dividing his time between two homes which is what people are doing now, he wouldve been truly likely quite at home with this whole situation. I was struck i do not know this, checkers was donated by somebody to the government was not correct, as a camp david, im more of a traditional country home i suppose. In america, before the war, right before the war, i believe he donated in 1914, dont quote me on that one, its not the idea that checkers was to be used in no work was to be done. It was a place the Prime Ministers could enjoy the countryside and let their faculty restore, churchill took that very differently, he decided to make it his countrys command post and packet with guest and booze. We have been inundated with books about this great historical character i would have skipped this book is not written by you but i have read your other books so i thought he will have a new angle or insight or a new framing. But was that daunting at all . Did you write about him because they were too many books about lincoln . So what drew you . [laughter] let me be clear it wasnt actually churchill he kind of became late in the process but what happened is i had decided for complicated reasons it would be interesting to look into how it was that people got through the day during the blitz in the german air campaign how did they actually do it . I moved from seattle to new york city and then i had this epiphany about what life was like in new york versus the rest of us watching it in real time had experience and thats world of difference but also the sense to have your home city attacked so you can imagine 57 consecutive nights of bombing how do people get through it . My original thought was maybe id write about the typical london family. But then he said why not the quintessential family . His family and advisers and how they got through it. Nobody had done i decided to take a close look at that day to day experience and thats what help me get through it. So how much material has been written about churchill and good stuff also. So much material had been done i actually had to make a strategic decision how i would do the research with the idea of moving everything that had ever been written about churchill which itself to be a Herculean Task it would take me in a decade and then even then by the time i got to the tenth year i would not be done because more books that have come out so i made a strategic decision i would simply wait as long as i could to get a sense of him and the landscape and then dive right into the archives to see what was there thats what felt much the most comfortable with the emerging materials so thats how i managed to pare things down otherwise it would be overwhelmed. Every single day for the last four and a half years i would ask myself what am i doing. [laughter] its interesting to see it did feel like a portrait that you are often seeing churchill in that historical moment through the eyes of his personal secretary or other advisors that sometimes are not quite we dont see things through their perspective through those accounts you mentioned in churchills own writing. What astonished me is that i never realized just how prolific venezuela was after the war but throughout his life he would get himself out of financial holes by his own writing and so prolific and commanded a lot of money for his journalistic writings and that was not fully appreciated. And his fighting got them out of a financial hole but also what is so remarkable is he was extremely well read an extremely talented writer but all this went into that machine of churchills brain and it really helped him in the process to move the nation through this crisis. Its interesting you said you gravitated toward this moment to think about what it was like to be in new york on 9 11 multiplied by 57 nights of the blitz. And then your book comes out early 2020 and of course now the entire world is fighting off a Global Pandemic which is an existential challenge to our society and people reach for that analogy as they reach for leadership to mobilize society to meet that crisis that requires extraordinary efforts and sacrifices. So is there a secret sauce to his leadership . He started to allude to this but to set the scene may 10, may 10, 1940, where your account starts. Eighty years from this coming sunday. So just set the scene to describe what i was of the uk and Winston Churchill over facing. In 1940 when it starts is the day that churchill became Prime Minister even the greatest day of his life thats what he wanted most of all he became Prime Minister when the consensus was in the house of commons that Neville Chamberlain was not up to the challenge to deal with hitler and germany. But the same day was the day that hitler had the phony war and then when he invaded the low countries so heres the situation where churchill the biggest day of his life also the darkest in the history of the world. This did not daunt churchill this is like added spice to the challenge to be in charge of this great empire at such a dire time thrilled him. So he becomes Prime Minister with his cabin and the crucial elements we can talk about the main characters in the book and those that have been relegated to the secondary posture but he immediately is confronting the existential threats with the presumption at the time that once germany consolidated with those forces to be expelled but the chaos at dunkirk then the entire strategic picture would be changed. Prior to france falling that france would always stand was the presumption that this would keep the riffraff that they and those fighter escorts would not have the endurance now suddenly with france falling there were german airbases on the coast of the English Channel minutes away from england and from london something that they never even speculated. So you have that thread in the very real theater hitler and germany were going to will of one invade but if germany ever gained air superiority there would be an invasion so imagine getting control of britain at this time when not only hitler has begun invading countries in europe and succeeding and crushing them but now he faces that could be an existential threat across the channel. What a hellish prospect for any normal mortal but not churchill so he came through time and time again subsequently. And with his speech and his oratory weve all been exposed to it and there have been lots of renditions and obviously he had a gift of the language but when you think of the recipe for leadership there is a tendency to focus on the oratory and to aspire that should not be underestimated was that mostly he was a good communicator or what was the ratio of elements . It was a mix of things but first of all never has so much been for so few thats not the strong point of his speech in fact at the time that particular line did not have the same residence as it does now for all of us. It was just a speech. But what made churchill communicate for courage with the opening speech about dunkirk. And he said in those opening moments he was telling it has a story that this is what was happening this is how it was unfolding it is a thrilling story if you think about it he would give a sober appraisal not happy talk but a down to earth sober appraisal sometimes too detailed and scared people on occasion but then talk about we should be optimistic of how this problem of dunkirk was potential for a german invasion and how this can be resolved and for optimism. And then metaphorically people rising saying i will be a part of this we will take him on god dammit. This will be amazing we will beat hitler that there is another element and this is part of his ability to communicate hes a great leader of history with this ability to place people into the grand epic of british history to make them feel they were a great part of this island story and then this great tradition but also he had an understanding of the power and the knowledge refusing to call hitler by his name he would say that man or that wicked man if you think about it that is a very powerful solution if you dont demonize the enemy but then on the other end he goes to those bombed out areas to survey the damage and talk to people expressing emotion but also showing his resolve and to engage in a courageous act and to show defiance this is very powerful. As a contemporary example i have to laugh the other day when we saw Vice President pence at the mayo clinic without a mask when everybody else was wearing a mask. So think of the optics may be a slice of america but churchill would be wearing a mask to charge around and say this is what we do. And if you engage in symbolic acts of courage then you dont wear a mask he audience knows damn well you should be wearing a mask that is our problem that kutcher credibility as a leader so to have a sense of the power of symbolic acts. I think fearless is infectious and that is tracked to the art of fearlessness but churchill was more than likely to go up to the nearest roof. Thats the type of leader that he was. I actually have been to the bunker and i was there for him and and there wouldnt be that much time there. One of the things that fascinates me that talk about this as a sources the sense of which we have some real time information how people responded to his speeches and so forth and to britains war and book about the home front to describe the observation and phenomenon. And i dont know the equivalent of that if it is social media. A social Science Organization founded before the war to create a social psychology of ourselves the idea to recruit hundreds to write about daily life. And then to sharpen their skills to on the mantelpiece that daily personal detail. With this Mass Observation that the war starts that then continues to keep the diaries what of the tremendous resource one of my favorite a clerk for scotland yard. And in this love affair and the diary shows metaphorically the broader culture in britain that it was experiencing and she is terrified like everyone else this is a shocking thing up until then that it word not be attacked and she is terrified. Overtime she becomes less terrified. A bomb went off outside her house and the germans attacked at night they first dropped the incendiary bombs. And then set things on fire to serve as a deacons for bombers to follow. And to have these fires. But she put out and snuffed it out and was so proud of herself and deleted suddenly she was no longer afraid. She stood up to this awful assault from germany and had the courage to do this. And quite candid about their sex life and her lover became more and more fearful. My favorite moment as the story proceeds as time passes there was an air raid and they hear two bombs and then the mother says get down and she says not now im not. [laughter] thats great. Future tense, to focus on the relationship of technology and impact on society. And to have a conversation you have a fan of the books. And one of the other things i was struck by i may or may not have been with churchill you portray him i call the technologist in todays sense of the word better the tech enthusiast and that character in the book and his role so talk about that relationship and churchills relationship with science and technology. And technology was a huge part of what turned the tide to help the allies. We have this image of this antiquated figure so its not necessarily the Technology Savvy is in the first thing that comes to mind but that is an interesting theme. And then to have a significant edge. And so one of the advisers and then with that special sauce if you will but and then to give the straight story. And then to do exactly the right thing. And clearly the most just like man in the government except may be churchill or his wife or his children. So surely after churchill became Prime Minister to be the personal scientific advisor and those things that happened with that establishment. And then to investigate anything that he wanted to put that assured churchill would get the straight story. Then had this into these affairs and to churchill. And with those ministers in question. So for example and how many aircraft germany has. Nasa didnt know the aircraft thats another issue. And it is such a conundrum and a higher court judge to review the evidence on both sides. Its called the jigsaw merger there were so many pieces they had to reassemble them before they can make a determination of the victims were. And with that statistical sense and that with those codes and so forth but that is crucial to the story. Im sorry im thinking about what you said about churchill not needing to surround himself with the yesmen. I dont know if that was a culture in our politics you cannot have any press conference or Cabinet Meeting without everybody going around to think those leaders are tremendous but it is broader than that. And the updates of the situation. And with that contemporary situation i would argue to serve the purpose the difference being that Current Administration does not allow that input. They like having somebody like doctor fauci out there as a loose cannon but churchill wanted frederick to be everybodys face. And he did it in spades. Want to remind people you can upload questions on the q a feature dont forget about that. So on the industrial side the productions are is an interesting character that might be a little more familiar but they had characters with the former ceo gm was prodded to have the production and they didnt know how many planes that they had so that was another interesting so with those larger biographies churchill so that is crucial in this era. So he was widely hated as well and in that case that immediately after he became Prime Minister he appointed the minister of aircraft production to set up the ministry because churchill recognize something early on and that is the military value that if ever to recall and invasion first it would require the superiority and the potential for invasion and then to prevent germany with the fighter aircraft. And ramping up production starting to increase and churchill recognized much more had to be done he never met that industrial object before and laughing at circulation. And with that minister of aircraft production but churchill wrote this guy was hated and also incredibly energetic and smart. But to an incredible degree and with that Technology Side but to really understand interest of the motivation of people to make sure that if the are a pilot, actual pilot to have their we slid visit the Aircraft Manufacturing Companies t tthey bec as the famous perception but it fleshed out my sense of what churchill was all about. But the experience from world war i informed my research in this current book more like a nuanced character. And then to criticize him for many things especially post world war ii and some of the things prior. As the arch imperialist but during this period and as a man of the hour and the experience during world war i i think it is important to know because he screwed up big time and that Prior Experience and coming into this role. And with that apparent existential threat. And how he mastered the confidence to do so. But. You talk about him being a flawed character and the arch imperialist. And then to seem a little outdated and nostalgic and in the thirties he is seen as preposterous that melodramatic and overthetop partlybrit votd ou o on that that would happen to carry the country through that experience. It was a realization even then that there is too much melodrama in this leadership for that piece time. That clearly as a profound sense that Neville Chamberlain was passed and the British Public just before the end of the war what they were hearing about churchill that was more confident and strong and then we need more stability and those that have that certain kind of leadership. And those to be out there on the battlefield. And coventry we hear about im not sure what is urban legend what is true but you indicated he was told that he chose not to warrant the targets because that would make the germans realize there is any truth to that story. Not and they case the coventry things to the deciphering and the communications but it was a big wave that was coming it was called night sonata that it was the perception of the intelligence the presumption was the attack would be from earlier but churchill had a report done full of detail meant for the Prime Minister and was given to him apparently so as he was leaving town it was so alarming suggesting there was a massive raid that night and was on the rooftop waiting that he feared it was coming but it wasnt coming to him or to coventry. Did he know cracks he did now a raid was coming he presumed the target would build he had no idea it would be coventry. Also on the subject of coventry that you describe the aftermath very movingly david peters thank you for joining us. He said he your description of the aftermath the current moment particularly the speech by the bishop and you say to be better friends and neighbors in the future because we suffer this together. And what have been in times of tragedy what is a modernday a prevalent . Frankly nothing for the federal government but in one thing i have been impressed by and with that hospitalization. And very careful to emphasize how tragic all these tests and never let us forget the fact to make it subside. And with those great losses you are experiencing. And that is a very important thing. And then you have to have a strong and wellbalanced moral compass and one ancillary effect of that is that you are also able to experience. And then to manage both and also deeply empathic. And the people of britain were experiencing. And very very moving. And then to make reference to that. Saying a lot of nice things about churchill in that first year and meeting the moment. Janet ask the question the book pays little attention to unhappiness. Was there very little . I can tell you what i found. And there were moments it depend on which you want to talk about. So these people were impressed with him and very satisfied and happy with his leadership. And then the existential threat and the rally around the flag. Talk about 9 11 they can forget in november 2001 and with those Approval Ratings were at 91 percent and with that Global Pandemic that is not necessarily going to play out the same way. One of the reasons he became Prime Minister in the first place with overwhelming public support and this is something the parliamentarians. So a couple the people watching and this is my reaction felt very churchills diary was an amazing addition to your book somebody said can you talk about the diary. Has this been used before . That is my favorite character and the diary was an asset when i got permission to use it from her daughter at that point i was only one of two people so to be very new in terms of new material first of all very smart and astute observer of everything. She adored her father. Seventeen at the time. And of those perceived errors. That the thing that i really loved is she is exactly the presence or observer for this lens and how they got through this thing. Because in addition to being a very astute observer and articulate she was a 17 yearold girl and there are references to snogging in the hayloft in going to parties. She and a friend of hers and they were going to learn all of the shakespearean sonnets one per day during the summer. I dont think they completed the mission. I think she makes the book honestly. Lastly we have a question from victoria how she was struck by churchills appreciation and the history may be did reference to previous Abraham Lincoln you can say little about that but what are you are someone who appreciates history choosing to read these days while you are homebound in new york . When it comes to reading for pleasure although i have to qualify the thrillers but in this case with the lord of the flies and it turns out to be comforting for this. But to be on that island with primal schoolboys. It turned out to be very interesting as all the distraction. I love a good thriller with the couple next door. That is my mission right now. It has been a pleasure. On a personal note i wanted to mention i have read a lot of your other books the guarded beast i had that personal connection to it because my father come i grew up in mexico my mom was american my father was mexican but when he was going to night school in the fifties he was offered the Administrative Office job by somebody named alfred stern and got to know and then studying at night working day today for this character and the government as the Us Ambassador 20 years before that and quite the character it was a corroboration and postscript on the stories. Interesting. Thank you for that. But thank you so much and to all of you for watching we do this tuesdays and thursdays at 4 00 oclock eastern with the New Invention of new america and come join us thank you so much. That way the cynicism unable to trust as we are told and with those first reactions to say the only in for themselves and then to persuaded people again. Bestselling author James Patterson is our guest author of 150 books or so your most recent the house of kennedys nonfiction. Yes. Welcome to my house. We are sheltering in florida which is a good place to shelter. Kelly nonio