My pleasure to be here with the author and really, wonderful person to talk about history and race, and just challenges during this time, Erica Armstrong dunbar. She is the author of one of my new favorite books. She came to sleigh. It is the life and time of Harriet Tubman. Thank you so much for doing this. Your book is really groundbreaking. And cute and first of all let me thank you for inviting me on. I really taken the time to have this conversation. I love to talk about history. But more importantly about the lives of africanamerican women during the 19th century. And harriet have one just became very clear early on that it was time to kind of do a bit of a refresher on Harriet Tubman. And to think about her as a person. Hennepin as an activist bird right now were thinking about about what social justice and activism looks like. I think theres no better representation of it, at least in the 19th century than Harriet Tubman. Its wonderful to be able to talk about her. Host what is wonderful about your book as you bring out things about Harriet Tubmans life that most of us, and some of us to think we know a little bit about history, we definitely know about the underground railroad in her role. But you bring out so much about her. Her role as part of the Suffrage Movement, the womens Suffrage Movement. Yes. My goal with this book what i wanted to do was write something first that was accessible. That was attractive, that was modern. On that really gave us the opportunity to think about Harriet Tubman as a woman, as a mother, as a wife, as a leading sort of activist on the underground. As some who was involved in suffrage. And really serving as a servant leader pretty think that is what she wouldve seen herself or called herself maybe. And i wanted to move away from that. That we know about. That sort of time. 101112 years were she is serving on the underground. I think most people, most americans at least know that Harriet Tubman was involved in the underground railroad. I was interested in who she was and what she was before that time on the underground. And after. And it kind of think about her holistically, to think about what her child life was like. And also to think about who was harriet to have but when she was a baby . When she was a child and who she was towards the end of her life. Civic i had to do this when you mentioned what she was like as a child. It literally gave me chills to read about what she had to go through as a 6yearold. When you think about six yearolds the things that were presented to her could you elaborate on that . She is not worn as harriet to have been this is the name given to her by her parents, harriet bream and benjamin, she was born to a loving family on the Eastern Shore of maryland. She was one of nine children, the incredible things about her life was at her parents know they did not live together from their time in maryland they managed to do almost the impossible which was to keep their family together. There is this moment for enslaved children when there is a transition to the work, to the work that well would be expected to do for the majority of their life. That comes to her when she is like six years old. She actually hired out away from her mother, her family, and shes basically forced to do what i would call sort of adult work. She was emptying the traps on the Eastern Shore of maryland taking the dead rodents out of traps. She is doing domestic labor, difficult labor. We think of what we expect from our children nowadays. What six yearolds are doing, theyre losing their first teeth, they are starting school. And of course none of this was in play for error meant it. She was exposed to a very difficult, hard life of labor and having to deal with illness, and loneliness. And just kind of think about the fear that must have penetrated her life. This is something that perhaps, for she did not know it then. But perhaps it was preparing her to be the wire that she ended up becoming. Because of the things she endured after this one of things as being a nurse we dont hear about as much. These are sort of the beginning of the time of the underground. And what people need to remember is error meant to grew up really doing hard labor in the field growing flax, lifting heavy bags into wagons and was really trying to make a way for herself. And at the same time she managed to find love. She married, she finds and marries a free black man by the name of john tubman in the 1840s, mid 1840s. She stood and went all enslaved were doing at that time, living under the oppression of White Supremacy still trying to keep ones family together and to live and love under oppression. She does that. That in itself is survival is incredible. To build a network and then to finally make a decision that she was going to leave behind the family that she knew and loved. And to make her most courageous perhaps movement that was to escape from the Eastern Shore of maryland. Eric i have to tell you, your writing is so vivid, you make her story into something that is so compelling for childhood, even her disappointment and love and what happened and how that fueled her and finding love later in life. Really bring her to life in a way that they have experienced. Wanted to make this book accessible and moderate. And i just have to tell you one part, youd know the part possibly relist harriet homies. [laughter] i mean i thought okay this is really cool. And Susan B Anthony its these are harriet homies, could you tell people little bit more about who her homies were . [laughter] see that static image of her in a history textbook usually somewhere near Frederick Douglass i wanted to use something is going to be attractive and engaging to millennial, generation v, generation x is, folks who are sort of used to that static image of Harriet Tubman. And you know, she was a woman, right . She found love. She had disappointment. She got angry. She carried a weapon. And she had her friends, her homies. So to me, i called my friends my homies. It makes her so many friends and acquaintances, John Brown Williams feel, but the suffrage is, Elizabeth Cady stanton, Susan B Anthony, they were powerhouses. To have that and there was tension from what i understand between the Suffrage Movement and womens rights. And white or black. Civic invented this moment or celebrating or commemorating the anniversary of the 19th amendment giving the women the right to vote. Harriet tubman is right in ther there. She was really marching or at least advocating for suffrage for women as early as 1860. She is with Elizabeth Cady stanton. Lucretia mott, other white suffragists. Who were pushing the needle attempting to get women the right to vote. There was great tension. This is something we have got to reckon with as we move into this moment or celebrating the right troop vote for women. We know actually black women dont really receive that right spirit or at least it is withdrawn from them over time. An incident interesting position. Shes worked with these women, these white suffragists. They are all abolitionist. They were all involved in the slavery, they helped her financially, helped her friends and family. So they were allies in that respect. But many of them are quite angry that black men have been given the right to vote with the 15th amendment. And they were still shut out. Theyre still disenfranchised. And really, tubman felt she had like she had to choose, but she didnt. She walked to the outline. Its amazing she was a politician. In part because she had relationships with this older generation of white women involved in abolition. But then you have other women like ida b wells, are pushing a different agenda. Tubman walks the life and remains engaged connected to white suffragists as well as this kind of new black womens movements is pushing for the right to vote from a different angle. One of the last photographs of her that people are used to seeing she was attending from what we understand one of the meetings, right . Guest we actually know she attended beeson the 1860s up almost to her death close to the end of her death. She is still super involved. This is a woman who at this time has moved to living at a home, basically a home for the elderly that she helped to create. So she is building homes for those who had been warmly enslaved, did not have a social network to help them as they grow older. One thing we have to remember is tubman remained, he was poor. Most of her life she struggled financially. This was the fates that most formally inflate people dealt with. She wanted to make certain that they would live and die and dignity. And so creating a home for black people at a moment when there is no social network for them anywhere else, becomes almost as important as her work with suffrage and just improving the Life Conditions of black people. she must be because she is running the underground railroad, bringing people back and forth, out of enslavement and when we think but her returning to the Eastern Shore of maryland, up to 13 times, rescuing between 60 and 70 people. That task is so herculean that its almost its almost hard to kind of believe it actually happened put we know it did and the main comments how spectacular that was and that she didnt get enough respect and material wealth from it. So i think she would have called herself if she called herself a leader which im not sure the would have it would have been a servant leader. Everything she did was because of her god, and so her deep christianity, her faith, fueled her. You included a photograph of the Eastern Shore, to show how tricky that terrain is, and still remains, and to think about it, and then all of her early chores and things she did, she had the physical strength, but she also had that mental just grit when you think about it. Do you wonder at times, though, when you talk about the difference with douglass and tubman at the time, did some of the difference have to do with her being a woman . Did she realize that . Yeah, thats a great question because it asks us to think about enalivement and fugitivity, escaping and gender, and the majority of those who made this bold active resistance by running from their enslavers, the majority of them were men and the majority of them were young men, in part because it was likely if they had children or wife they may not have lived on the same farm, as was the case with Harriet Tubman, and ross, and for many women they were left on the farm with the plantation, taking care of children and their youngest physically able in years and the idea of attempting to escape with a baby or leaving them behind was just too unimaginable for most. Harriet tubman was not in that position. She did not have children. She had family she left behind but of course her escape makes her somewhat unique because of her gender, but then afterward this acceptance of men taking to the political stage, the political platform, in a way that douglass did that wasnt quite as open for women in the middle of the 19th century, and in some part that is partly a reason why tubman isnt a part of that political movement. She is behind the scenes, not up front with all the glory. We dont actually glorify her until many, many, many years after her death. One of her mates onehalf Sojourner Truth, with the famous saying but about a woman and they interacted. Right . They did and this was during the sort of the moment of the civil war, and both Sojourner Truth and Harriet Tubman came from the experience of being enslaved. Sojourner truth, northern experience of enslavement and then freedom. With tubman, her experience is very different. They actually did not agree on some things politically. Sojourner truth was much more of a fan of Abraham Lincoln than was Harriet Tubman at first. Tubman later on changes her tune a bit about lincoln, but tubman did not really trust Abraham Lincoln and she did not believe theirs is during the era of the civil war, she wondered what it would look like. Before that, she was homey with home like john brown, and john brown thats pretty radical. It doesnt get any more radical than that. She is engaged with him. She knows he is planning this insurrection. He comes to her in canada. He feels like she is someone who can Harness Energy and the support of other black people to overthough the nation and to do it by force, right . She is down. She is like, okay, let go. Shes ready. She is ready in a way that douglass was not. This moment when john brown approaches douglass and says join me and douglass is like, this is a fools errand. And she took he role. Yes. She is a radical. You have in terms of modern again you have some of her things and you say let me rap to you. And you have some really cool things that Harriet Tubman said, and in fact its famous quote, let me rap to you real quick. Harriet tubman. And that is making accessible and bringing this story to life, you are also able to deal with difficult aspects, especially about being a woman, and being a slave, and you handle that very truthfully but delicately, and i think that speaks of the power of your writing. Thank you. I do know that a Younger Generation of readers may not be interested or want to deal with the trauma that slavery always imposes on us. Theres nothing easy about it. And theres sometimes an attempt to kind of just say i dont want to remember that part of our history of. Of our nations history, and right now that is very clear as were dealing with monuments and what history looks like, what it means, how we represent ourselves as a nation, but i argue as an historian im always going to say that you must understand the past no matter how difficult and thorny and uncomfortable it is, because its what informs our present, and if we want to change, if we want progress, we have to reconcile with the difficulty of the past, yet i still know its difficult. One of my techniques im a teacher, right . Meeting people where they are, meeting students and readers where they and are to make it a little more modern. To have these callouts like let me rap to you real quick. Thats what i would say to a friend of mine when im on the phone, let me rap to you real quick. Thats basically what tubman was saying, and i also wanted us to be familiar with her words. Were so focused on images, the few images we have of her, she was someone who did she had her narrative, autobiography penned by someone else but i wanted to us also be able to focus on the words that she spoke and to do it in a way that was relatable. There she said ive seen hundreds of sleep slaves but in never saw one would was willing to go back and be a slave. And that is she helped people make that decision. In terms of not wanting to back and her determination and all of that. [overlapping speakers] i had reasoned this out in my mind. There was one of two things i had a right to liberty or death. And if i could not have one, i would have the other. For no man should take me alive i should fight for my liberty as long as my strength lasted and when the time came for me to go, the lord would let them take me. Thats pretty powerful. It is. We get back to this, its the word that jumps out to me is liberty. And this is the language that Founding Fathers were using and the 1770 and 80s and the language that enslaved people, and formerly enslaved people held to this well. This was about a fight for a right to be free and that if that was not an option, that the alternative might have to be not living, death. And even that, thats a choice. Right . Thats a choice. To be able to live or die and it reminds us once again that tubman was willing to fight for freedom, for liberty, up to the death. She was and every time she returned to the Eastern Shore of maryland, she put her life in jeopardy. Shuttling her friends and family members, he aged parents, almost all of her siblings, she extracted from the jaws of slavery. That is incredible. And the thought of her liberating her elderly parents is a story that is remarkable when you think about it. What that took. And that they lived out the rest of their lives together, they had a love story. They went through so much as well, and that she gave them that gift. Yeah. Just love her. Just love her. And you love her parents, too. The parents, and their story, and to make it real, at the end, you do a Little Something about what it might look like if she was we shall see. If shes remembered in that way. But the movie, the recent movie and i know you were part of that, and able to give so much information. The photograph, this last photograph, this is the one that we had never seen before, and it shows her as a child when she said usually would say to her, shes older and everything but to see her dressed well, proud, strong, you say this is the person who did so many things. You know, when that photograph, which now appears at the National Museum of africanamerican history and culture, which you know well, to in some ways rescue it and then share it with the public, that is an image of tubman that most of us prior to what was the year before last, when yall acquired it, thats an image were not accustomed. To were accustomed to her elderly, maybe hands chanced, shoulders hunched, head covered, this is a young woman, right . This photo was taken in the late 1860s and after the war, but we see her just sort of proud and the word that comes to mind is fierce. She is fierce. About the business and fierce in every way and almost like, okay, of course i just rescued hundreds of people and 6070 people from maryland. Thats what i do. Im a boss. Im a boss. She came to slay and you could see it and we just i think all of us owe you so much in terms of bringing that spirit to life. And bringing her life into a form that gives you chills, makes you think. There were a couple of times i could chuckle because she was she had a personality, and that comes through. We just all thank you for bringing Harriet Tubman interest this modern age, erica. Thank you. Its an honor. Always say this. Im a fortunate woman because i get to do what i love, which is to study and write about black women in particular, and so its an honor to hear you say that and to have readers enjoy their time reading, oshe came to slay and ethanal also an obligation and one i dont its also an obligation and one i dont take lightly and i aim graftful for the opportunity to share her story with another generation, current generation of social activists. So thank you. Gives women something to hold on to. So thank you so much. Thank you. Booktv continues on cspan2. Television for serious readers. Hello and welcome to virtual book event, discussion of Williams Howell book issue president , and the crisis of democracy
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