We talking to you at the state department . Largely because we have glorious newly refurbished rooms to celebrate any beautiful, opulent book that gives us the history of those rooms and the collection in its entirety to celebrate as well. And we are sitting in the ben franklin diplomatic room at this time. What is your connection to the state departments americas collection book . Well, im here on franklins coattails because had written a book about Ben Franklins years in, france, when he is essentially paving way for the American Foreign service, hes really first foreign ambassador. And in the years that he spends in france, puts america on the map and as that is the genesis really of the department of state in the beginnings of, American Foreign policy. Im here in a way, as Ben Franklins companion. And that, of course, is your book, the great improvised about Ben Franklins time in france. You describe franklin as combative, prideful, callous and overbearing. Does that make for a diplomat . No, i think is ben franklin, as he dealt with his colleagues, a curious thing about franklins years in france is that he essentially hits the ball out of the park on every front, except when dealing with his fellow commissioners in paris and especially john adams. And so those are adjectives that i think john adams would have quickly applied, franklin, where franklin and french court are concerned, he is subtle and supple and masterful and eloquent and immensely accommodating. And the most popular man in paris by a long shot was he americas first diplomat. Aifor the war. To france to the basically the colonies have declared without any means of securing that independence. And so franklin, at the age of 70, is dispatched on what sounds like kind of a fools errand sent to a monarchy to solicit aid for a nascent republic and spends the first few years very secretively arranging for munitions to fight to fight the war signs. The first treaty of alliance with the french so that they will officially back the war and stays in paris long enough to negotiate the treaty of paris, which which ends the war 1783 and then only comes home two years later. So that really is the beginning of americas on the world stage at the outset, the colonies are in substantial, difficult for most europeans even to locate a map as large as real as was the island of corsica, to which. They were often compared at the time and. Its franklin who really defines america in the eyes of the world and establishes in the hallways of i was his role vital to winning the war of independence without franklin there would have been no war in the sense that there would have been no means with which to wage a so there had been at the time of the declaration no engineers, the colonies, no munitions in the colonies, no gunpowder in the colonies, and most of all, no money in the colonies with which to attempt to separate from great britain. It is because of franklin that. By the time of yorktown you end up with french munitions, french troops. Uniforms and a french fleet who protect all of those men in battle, diplomacy often be full of intrigue. Was there a lot of intrigue going on in paris in versailles, and back here in the states . Theres always intrigue in congress. You dont need me to tell you that. But the intrigue, paris, is astonish showing, and franklin has to somehow figure out his way to make his way through these multiple layers of intrigue and bureaucracy while speaking the language that is not his first language. And without anyone really guide him. And moreover, i should say without really instructions from congress multiple times because he can go six months without a letter from congress. So hes really trying to finesse his way through the levels of the french aristocracy through the halls of lci on his own, by his. And fortunately for us, a master psychologist and he really figures out how to do this largely by being just immensely candid and kind with he meets. Hes also interestingly a man of few words, which i, i would argue probably does make a great diplomat. I think we think of him as a very verbose character. But is he can be very tight lipped, very sort of carefully epigrammatic and otherwise slightly recessive, even in a crowd of people in france. That was astonishing. Someone who didnt speak the time. So stacy schiff, were talking about 1780, what was a communication like getting back from paris to states, etc. . At one point i think Congress Goes for a year hearing from ben franklin. They do wonder, is anyone still over there in paris representing . Our interests. He will very often complain that six months go by without a letter from most of those letters end up in london. So if you really want to read a full the full account, whats going back and forth between between franklin and congress, you go to london to read it because they all of them intercepted by spies. And i should say that franklins household is encircled by two sets of spies. Theres the theres the french. There are the french informers who are being trailed about paris by the informers from great britain. And both of those sets of men are writing accounts back to their handlers about what franklin is doing. So theres enormous amount of material about what franklins doing. It never made its way back to congress. What his relationship with louis the 16th in the french revolution is just on the horizon at this Point Franklin never really grasps whats happening in france. One of the contributing factors the french revolution, in fact, is how much franklin has managed to extract from the french coffers for our revolution which leaves vesey with the relatively bankrupt. And thats one of the contributing factors to the french. Frankly, this strain only blind to that he will have left france by that time. But in the course of those years, it is in his best interest to, maintain the best possible with the court of louis the 16th, the the great meeting between them is the moment the colonies are finallyfficially and franklin appears the king for the first time in a brown velvet suit representing the united province is of north america, as we are then called, and thanks the king for all he has for the country and the king louis xvi basically says, i hope this treaty be in the interests of both of us. And franklin then sort of ad libs, a lovely about if if all the monarchies governed by the sentiments in your heart sire republics would never be formed. Which seems like a strange thing to come out of his mouth. Hes very closely observed, the other diplomats. Everyone is in all of the fact that the french have entered into this alliance with this unproved power. They know nothing about the americas. Why have they done this . Purely obviously out of out of enmity. Great britain and franklin remains for those next years very much in the good of the court. You mentioned all the spies were the brits aware of everything that franklin was doing in versailles. Every much everything that happens in franklins is known the week in london. Because in franklins household is a secretary who is a spy. And every tuesday the aforementioned spy would take would make copies of franklins correspondence right drive them to the to the Treasury Gardens in into a bottle under a tree. From there they would be delivered posthaste to. So london has an exceeding good idea of whats happening on franklins end and and he has a sense of that he operates as if as he puts it, even his valet might be a spy. He just assumes everyone is informing on him. So how is he successful . Through an extraordinary amount of candor about what hes doing and. As i said, by a certain amount of secrecy, by just not always putting his cards on the table, except when forced to. What was franklins back here he sent by the americans because hes the perfect man for the job, he has a better understanding of europe than any other american. Hes nearly 16 years in london. Prior the revolution, hes crossed the ocean seven times. No other american has this much familiarity with europe in. Incongruous he can be viewed with suspicion for that very reason. Hes a little too worldly. Hes a little too european. Then by the time he comes back from france, hes almost a little too french. In france, however, hes practically a walking statue. Liberty. He is the ideal man because he has himself, as they see at the tamer of lightning, the man who has somehow found out the secrets of the heavens and has has bottled electricity. So in this role, they see him as a sort of backwoods philosopher and a great man of science, and he is the celebrity to beat all celebrities when arrives in france to the point where he can barely walk through the streets without being accosted mobs. We have a statue of the marquis de lafayette here in washington. Is there a Benjamin Franklin statue in paris . There is . A huge statue of Benjamin Franklin in paris. And theres avenue. Benjamin franklin in paris. Theres not an avenue franklin in london. What, if any, did ben franklin play in creating the Us Department of state . What by . The time he comes back . Thomas jefferson replaced him in paris and jefferson very clear on the fact that he has succeeded rather than replaced ben franklin. Because, as jefferson puts it, no one could possibly replace him. And its really jefferson who begins to craft a Foreign Policy for a new nation. So in way that is the launching part, i would say, for for the department of state. Your book, the great improvization, is being turned into a miniseries. Tell us about it. Its an eight part apple series. It will air, i believe, beginning around april in the role of ben franklin. Is douglas looking more like franklin than ben franklin . And it was filmed in precise sally, those hallways down, which ben franklin himself walked complaining the cold marble floors for all of those years that he was weekly paying visits to versailles to see louis the 16th to finesse the aid for the war. So it was really filmed exactly where it where it all happened. Everyone in the series who was french in real life, all the the entire french cast is played by french actors and the americans, americans. So its an extraordinary bond by national cast, very true to the history and, really. I think in my thoroughly unbiased opinion, really thrilling. Were you part of the filming. Absolutely not. Did you had so did you attend . I did. Was allowed to spend a day, few days on the set, which was which was really which was extraordinary. Were they true to the book . Its very true to the book. Its very true to the history. I think a part of the history that we tend to forget, i think we prefer think of the revolution as been the work of general washington. We forget there is this foreign involvement, foreign support, without which we not have had a revolution and that then to reinsert that chapter into. The story, i think, is vitally important, and this really puts it front and center and gives you a sense really the odds. At one Point Franklin is in paris talking about George Washingtons 80,000 troops, when in fact, i think washington is commanding an army of 14,000 men. I mean, these dire times where franklin is really sending all of the aid from, paris that was necessary to fight. How did the money actually get across the Atlantic Ocean . Well, the money comes in terms of blankets, tents and munitions and largely so. It really comes in in of the material that was required. And franklin gets, these extraordinary long sort of laundry lists of everything the army needs. And its everything from blankets to thimbles. So hes running around with a with a cast of confederates trying fill those orders. And then initially secretly trying to ship those things back to the colonies. Would ben franklin be described as a good human being . Oh, i would a hard time naming a more benevolent person thought more of the common than the others. Hes hes someone who, strangely interested in himself and deeply interested in how to better the world in which we live. I mean, this is a man of a hospital, a university a fire company, an insurance company. Then a library, the number of civic institutes ones that he founds in this attempt to make himself useful, as he always to put it. And what was his age this time . Hes 70 when he goes and, he comes back eight and a half years later, he thinks that he thinks when he leaves that he will probably not return. Theres a real sense of this is the of my life and i hope to make it a rousing last act as he sails. And then by 85, hes not certain if he should come back. He hesitates. Hes very happy in france. Obviously, hes ridiculously celebrated in france. Hes warned that he might not be met with so exalted a welcome he were to come home. He is as puts it, among people whom i love and, who love me very comfortable in france the british had occupied and plundered his home so he knows hes coming back to a to a difficult situation and hes hes crossed ocean more times than he was comfortable. He did he did not know that he would survive crossing of the ocean. Instead he gets on board ship to return in 1785 and immediately feels 20 years younger than hes felt in ages. What was it like to cross the ocean in those days brutal. Franklin had swore never to do it again. Several passages previous this it could take months and you often landed as was his case in 1776 not in the port to which you were headed. So for example, he was headed nahant, but he ended up in a little town called rye, which was hundreds of miles away, and has to sort of figure out how to make his way from to paris, from there. So its a its a its a complicated and somewhat dangerous crossing on, which the affair was quite brutal. And the weather was particularly brutal. Is somebody in his entourage who doesnt get the credit that he or she deserves . Well, i think he doesnt get the credit because the whole French Mission is something that i think were somewhat reluctant to admit to at times, putting america back into the into the greater context of the world, into the in relationship with europe in these years, i think, doesnt come naturally with him. Go his two grandsons, one of them is seven and he gets shipped off to school in switzerland and the other is a teenager and franklin enlists as his secretary and this is his loyalist sons son whom franklin takes with him. And in a way temple his is his lifeline to the people of paris because temple is able to give him some sense of what is happening in the streets of paris, which franklin himself cant exactly frequent. Temple doesnt amount to what grandfather had hoped he might amount to, but a huge hes a huge source of assistance. While franklin there and otherwise i think i would just say that the triumvirate who negotiate peace john adams, john jay and franklin get deserve the credit we could possibly hope to give them. And would you say that john jay and john adams and ben franklin agreed on the goals initially . Not at all for different reasons. Adams and john jay are very to make a peace without the involvement of the french franklin because of his years at versailles has very very Close Relationships with especially the french minister whom he has promised that he will never negotiate without the involvement of france in negotiating a kind of without the involvement of france and. Ultimately, john jay and john adams will prevail over franklin and the pieces negotiated any conference with the french the task of explaining that afterward will fall to franklin who has to make a somewhat humiliating trip to versailles to explain what he has with the assistance of his colleagues just done so. Stacy schiff, as we mentioned, were here in the ben franklin room at the department of state. There is a table here, the treaty of paris table. What is . That its this modest desk which if you look at it closely, you realize is the beating heart of american history. Because is it it is the desk at which we think John Adams John jay and ben franklin signed the treaty of paris establishing this country in paris. In 1783. It was essentially a brought from london by one of the british negotiators who very keen keep the americans from going to say i insisted that they meet at his apartments in paris rather than involving the french nutty and he saw to it that the american negotiators and the other side signed the desk signed the papers at that desk and has found its way through miraculous means here to the state department. Now, you mentioned that ben franklin spent 17 years in london prior to going paris, did he maintain relationships with the british after he went to paris . Franklin is still a very close with his friends in london with his friends everywhere in great britain. In fact, and maintains a correspondence with him through these years with some them there is a real you can see franklin kind of at his at his most acidic with theres a real sense of how could you have done this to us you could have avoided this conflict so easily you surely dont think were going to back down. I mean, theres a real sense of having got his back that no one has really taken the americans seriously. And with others theres a continually kind of charming correspondence through these years which allows him its time to negotiate the peace to have relationships in place to make that kind of settlement possible. And in fact, the first overture that is made about let us perhaps discuss a peace treaty, this war has gone on long enough will come to him through the friend of a friend. So those relationships that he had forged, those years prove enormously beneficial from a diplomatic point of view as well. From a personal point of view, 1785 was this franklin returns to philadelphia was it his last act . It was the most important of his life, in his view. It was, in his estimation, most taxing act of his life. I think you could probably call it his greatest contribution to america. And this from a man who made many who left such a huge imprint, america and the next five years are largely franklin in his glory. But as i said slightly suspect for his involvement with europe he has about him sort of the perfume of a Foreign Court in some way and theres some discussion as to whether his account books for example were always held to the highest while he was in france. Stacey schiff is the author of this book. Its called a great improviser, and she is also contributor to the state departments americas collection. We appreciate you joining us here in the franklin room at state department