And one more comment id like to make is that my son, who is a white male, was pulled over tonights ago by the police because he had a low beam out. So i think things have really changed in the past 50 years. My main question is how can you say you cant make it today based on something that happened to your family 150 years ago . Id like to hear an answer to that. So i mean for starters, this idea of 150 years ago, its true slavery ended 150 years ago. But the discrimination thats baked into our system continues even today. I tell the story all the time about my father, not somebody i read about in a book somewhere, not some ancient relative. My father was born in 1933 in mississippi. Goes off to fight in the korean war. Comes home to a mississippi where he cant sit at a lunch counter, where he is not allowed to vote, where he does not get to participate in the gi bills that are offered to people coming back from war to go to college where he cant get the home loans that are offered as they are building big suburbs. These are the things that shaped his economic life. Im his son. How could it not have any affect on me . Theres no question that theres tremendous opportunity available now for people that there wasnt 50 years ago or 150 years ago. But we still are dealing with a nation whose fundamental infrastructure is about inequality, it is about saying that africanamericans could not be equal. Its really difficult i get everything the caller is saying about his personal frustration with the circumstances. But you have to put that in a much larger context of the country we live in. I wanted to add two things. One, im always sorry to hear that when people lose their jobs that the employer tells them that its because some black person got their job. We need to know our history and we need to know employers throughout American History, when they have wanted to downsize, cut wages, they pitted black workers against white workers. I dont know the exact circumstance in this callers employment, but i know theres a long history of this not being true but white workers made to feel resent until about black employment. The other thing, the fact his son was pulled over, is that we have criminalized so much that youth are being criminalized in general. The final thing i want to say is that as a white person that grew up in detroit and writes a lot about race, i do think that theres were in a moment in American History where white people need to start being much more honest about the way in which we are prifvileged. We do know about the hiring prejudices. We do know that. When white folks get together, theyre honest about that among themselves. So i just feel like its really important that we start being more honest about this publically. Lets hear from rick in georgia. Rick, go ahead. Caller yes, thank you. Thank you, heather. Four years old on pasadena, i remember diving up under the bed, ducking bullet with my brother and sister and cousins, my family. You hear the stories about how the white people would sick their dogs open my brothers and them going to school. Or turn their water sprinklers on. So the indian mothers and black mothers had to teach their kids underground in basements. Because they couldnt get to school. Coming up through the school system, i remember getting theater summer jobs. One was the police cadet. Officer mohammed instilled in us. At that point i was getting an understanding of either you are a part of the solution remember graduating from the police cadet. I notice this is an armory right there on grand river i dont know the corner. Its an armory. Its closed now. On eight mile there was an armory. So then now im getting ready to graduate from high school. On graduation day, were walking down the hall, going to see our teachers and saying bye and getting wisdom before we leave. This teacher who i never had, but i would hear my brothers and other friends talk about this teacher and other teachers. He had the nerve he had the gall to put his middle finger im a child. I was 18. I turned around and laughed at him because i was more man in me to be able to laugh at him, even though it pissed me off than he was in his coward way. Now, we have a history im glad miss thompson brought up black leaders almost have a milquetoast way of approaching this. Miss thompson is right, being more honest about how cowardly it has become and the covertness from then to now. After i went into the military and saw that my own White Authority figures were the one blocking our promotions. I called home and said, this is racist. She was like, baby, its racist everywhere in america. Rick, thank you for your story. Thank you for giving us perspective. Steven talked about this idea of moving forward. He talked about this idea of trying to make the best of the situation. What did you take from that . If you take the two last callers together, one of the real issues we have is the idea of it has to be either or. The first caller believes that because i experience things that are unfair, black people have nothing to complain about. The second caller is trying to explain that, look, its different. Its really different being an africanamerican and the experiences that you have. Those two perspectives are not mutually exclusive. We dont have to shout one side down to sort of acknowledge the other. Thats the difficulty in i think the racial discussion today is that the instinct is to say that the other side just has no legitimacy at all. Thats why we cant get past all of this. Where do we go from here as far as i know its not a simple question to answer in the final minutes of this segment. How does detroit move forward . What do you think . I actually think detroit is moving forward in fits and starts. Its not even. Its not entirely just, the way that change is coming to the city. But this is a different place today than ten years ago. Three years ago. Right. Theres no comparison between the two. We still have some real challenges in making sure that everybody benefits from whats happening and the investment thats coming makes its way around. I dont think theres any question were headed in right direction. If you go to the pages of the Detroit Free Press, theres a story steven henderson, you fa talk about the home you grew up in. The neighborhood i grew up in is a block from the tenth precinct where the people who were arrested in 1967 were taken. Its a neighborhood that has been forgotten. It has had tremendous disinvestment, depopulation. Hardly any schools left in the neighborhood. My childhood home sat empty and was stripped for several years. I decided that i couldnt have that go on forever. I started a nonprofit taken the house partnering with a local college to make it a writers residence and focus on change from within for the neighborhood. The idea is not to change the neighborhood to make it appealing necessarily to other people but to make it better for the folks who are there. We had a soft opening yesterday of my house. Were on to several other houses on the block. Hopefully, in a few years will turn the cover. This idea of moving forward . I think stevens story about his neighborhood is just a perfect example of how the whole rebuilding of detroit is not just from the outside coming in. Its not just investors coming in. Its detroiters reclaiming the city and reinvesting in it. I think moving forward, we have a lot of hopeful signs. The historian in me said we really need to be very cautious as well. We need to once and for all deal with the question of racial inequality in this city. And everything from job training to mortgages to access to water, access to schools, good schools. If we can do that, then detroit will be an amazing place again. Or for the first time, actually, for most people. And if we dont, we do we proceed at our peril. We have got to get this right. We cant solve every social problem in americas cities, including detroit, through criminalizing, through the criminal justice system. Its a failure. We can do it differently. Stevens example of rebuilding community is the way do it. So im hopeful but cautious. Heather thompson, author and professor looking at these subjects, steven henderson, thank you for your time. Our conversation will continue on this day 50 years ago looking back at what took place in 1967 here in detroit, michigan. Two other guests joining us later on in the program. First, a sense of oral history about the events of that day. We spoke with a man named marlo stedemeyer who is at the forefront of making sure people understand the story. We will hear from him. We will continue our discussion of detroit 1967. Im the project director of detroit 67, looking back to move forward. Were at gordon park. This is the place where many people believe the rebellion, riot, uprising in detroit in 1967 started. Detroit 67 looking back to move forward is a multiyear Community Engagement project thats designed to bring Diverse Voices and communities together around the historic affects of a crisis so people can find their role in the present to inspire the future. Its been 50 years since the tragic week in 1967 that rocked detroit and really brought the nations eyes to the attention of whats happening in detroit and around america with regard to civil unrest, Police Brutality and just unjust conditions in urban communities. So what were doing at the Detroit Historical society is trying to give people an opportunity to do three things. Engage around the topic, have a level of reflection with the blockbuster exhibition and massive oral history project. More importantly, inspire people to a level of action to create a Better Future so when the year 2067 comes around, theres a different story being told. Gordon park is a perfect example of how commemoration and rerevitalization can be at the forefront. What happened here in 67 . There are different perspectives. The common knowledge, there was a blind big, which is an off hours facility that people use, which is technically illegal, that was raided at the corner of 12th and clairmont. It cams on the years of up just policing and issues between the community and Law Enforcement that spilled over to frustration. It wasnt something people planned in terms of a revolution or some type of scheduled uprising. It was an instant, which is why a lot of people refer to it as a rebellion. People rebelled against a force they felt was unfair. It spread out into the streets where there was a lot of unrest. If you look across the park now and in this community, its hard to believe this was once a thriving and booming business district. It really was. There were stores owned by black, white, you name it. A lot of people did a lot of business here. They didnt have to leave the community. Before you knew it, a rock was thrown, a glass was broken, looting occurred, fires started. It wasnt just black folks. It was one of the most integrated incidents that happened in detroit as our former police chief told us. It spread across the city. It didnt touch every aspect of the city. But it was something that spread. It was at that particular time in the 1960s, the deadliest uprising or unrest in america. There was a lot of lives lost, a lot of arrests. For some people it divided us further than what we were. One of the reasons why the Detroit Historical society decided to target this park was when we first started, we came over and there was no history, nothing here to tell generations of young people and people who live here the true story or give them context what happened around here 50 years ago. We learn in other parts of the world they dont run from history. They embrace what happened to use it as a case not to repeat it, not do it again and not let it happen. What we have decided to do is work with the city of detroit and the state of michigan to put in a Historical Marker with full context of what happened but more importantly to really show that a park can be a symbol of revitalization and a way forward for a community, not historical society, not City Government but for people who live in these communities, the people who had to move away or those who stayed and fought. This is their park. We want history to be at the forefront of why its valuable to our future. Its not a celebration. Its a level of memorialization, commemoration and how we all together pivot to a point of moving forward. Not moving forward past what happened, but moving the conversation forward. Moving our actions forward. Moving the engagement forward, collectively and showing how if were truly going to move Forward Together and inclusively, community has to be involved. So were coming to their place. Were hoping that we can be a part of this community. If not just for today, but moving forward for the rest of our history. I hope people walk away with a few things. Understanding how we got to 67. What happened here and around the community during that time. But more importantly, there wasnt a period at the end of that sentence. Were still in the 50th year. This is still an ongoing narrative. If we dont take control of our narrative by leading with action and finding a way to move forward, were destined to repeat the stories of the past. That the young people and the people who are in the community now have just as much utility, opportunity and responsibility to shape 2067. If a physical space like a park can be spomething that triggerig that, then thats what were looking for. Were lookingingi for physical presentations. What are some other parts of the Community Revitalization project . There are some other components that we have launched with regard to gordon park. The historical society, which traditionally works within the four walls of the museum, has launched a place making initiative. Using gordon park as a pilot to provide microgrants to do lqc projects. To demonstrate in contrast ofed how we can build and grow things whether it be a mural, a community park, a playground. Something thats going to bring people together in a community and not separate us. You are watching American History tv on cspan3. Back live in the Detroit Free Press newsroom. 50 years ago today, a police raid in an illegal bar triggered unrest. Here to continue our discussion is ike mckinnon and tim kiskon. Chief, you were a Police Officer in 1967. Could you give your perspective what happened on this day 50 years ago . 50 years ago this day, i was in the heat of what was going on. It was extremely hot. It was humid. We had loads and loads of people on the street who were looting. Some were just spectators. We had probably 5500 Police Officers. Of that 5500 Police Officers, we had probably 100 or less africanamerican. It was such an incredible time. Some people were enjoying the spectacle of what was going on. Others were looting. It was a very difficult time for everyone because of the fact that we had assumed in detroit that this wasnt going to happen. That things were okay. Eventually, i worked the mayor. But people assumed it wasnt going to happen. The Police Department unfortunately was it unprepared to handle the situation of thins that occurred in 1967. What do you think that was . The Police Department assumed that everybody was happy. They did not and had not looked at what had occurred that precipitated this series of incidents. We had Horrible Police community relations. We had horrible relationships with the black community in particular. A lot of people had been beaten up. I was one of those people in 1957 who was beaten by the police and made a decision i was going to become a Police Officer. This was commonplace in detroit for the detroit Police Department. In fact, it was probably in around that time that the naacp attempted to integrate the Police Department. The Police Department went on what was called a blue flu, what was a strike. We had all these things occurring. There had been a number of people, probably the 50s and early 60s, who had been shot or killed by the police. All these things festered in addition that we had a great number of people who moved up from the south who wanted to get jobs here in detroit because of the big three. They found that things were probably as bad here as they were in the south. They were really frustrated in terms of things going on. We are continuing with our conversation with our guests. If you want to continue on with your calls to them, 2027488900 for eastern and central time zone. 2027488901 for the Mountain Time zone. If you lived in detroit or want to give perspective, 2027488902. We referenced this earlier, was everybody aware of what was going on during the riots . Well, in the newsroom, yes. There was a blackout that first day. We had pretty good press relations. The police chief was a former detroit times reporter. I remember talking to one of the former news directors who was on the golf call, gourse, and got and said, can you sit on this . If you go live with all of this, its not going to help. A lot of people bought into that. That first day, it became particularly strange Detroit Tigers were playing the new york yankees at tiger stadium. Full house. The broadcaster gets a call from the general manager saying under no circumstances are you to make any reference whatsoever to the smoke over the left field fence. Which in hindsight, what do you do . If you go on the loudspeaker and say, theres a riot going on, exit gracefully, people are going to exit gratefully. It was if thing had gone away, there had been an incident the year before on the east side which got put down after a couple nights. These news directors might have been hailed for their civic responsibility. In fact, strangely enough, there was a tv station across the river in windsor, canada, who first broke this at 2 00 in the afternoon. They set up a camera on the river. You could see smoke. They said, something is going on over there. We understand theres a civil disturbance. All we can tell you is this is what it looks like. People sat on it for that first day. If you go to the Detroit Free Press, one of the cover pieces that you will have is that baseball game that our guest referenced in which there was smoke that the audience could see at the time. But then again, not of much awareness what was going on. None. I think that people left that baseball game one of my former history professors remembering driving up grand river and into the smoke with his family going, whats going on here. Pretty soon everybody found out. As far as the actual incident took place on this day, what do you think as far as what kind of there were a lot of contributing factors that led to it. What about the police role . The blind pig itself i had been part of the crews that would go into these blind pigs and raid these after hour places. We would have four men. One black and three white. That would go in and maybe we would arrest 50, 60 people without incident. I think that because of the things that occurred throughout the country and the incident that occurred on the east side in detroit in 1966, that i think there were people who wanted to get things started. This was the right place at the right time and maybe the wrong place at the wrong time. Again, the law enforce xhnt commu community was not prepared to handle this. Once it started, it was out of contr control. In in regards to what tim said, there were so many fires going on. It was impossible not to see it. Whether they are at the baseball game, you had to see the smoke. For those of us there, it was beyond ones belief the number of stores and places that were on fire. You would see all the smoke and the fire. You heard the fire engines. The police cars that were screaming with their sirens and so forth. It was very chaotic. Again, if you want to give us a call, do that. Our first call comes from hendrix in california. You are on with our guests. Go ahead. Caller thank you for having me on the show. I was 7 years old at the time. We lived on tracey. We were one of two black families in an all white neighborhood. I remember how there was a fear. One of the things that sticks out in my mind whenever i look at the old film footage is the National Guard with their bayonets on their rifles, which reminds me of something that you would use in a true war zone. What that did to a lot of the people the residents of detroit. I want you if you could speak on the issue of red lining. I worked in Television News as a photographer for a very long time. So i have a very Broad Perspective of the riots. Again, thank you very much for letting me be on your show. You want to start . Yeah. I grew up on the east side. There was a dividing line connor. I went to the grade school six blocks away. I did not have a single africanamerican student in that class. I went to a high school on connor, once again, no africanamericans whatsoever. This is 65, 66, 67. This was not healthy at all. I think that we wonder why the goofy race relations. It was because of stuff like that. When the commission came out and talked about separate societies, i think that was very much true. I think thats changed a lot. My son went to one of the area high schools which had previously been all white. I think its 20 fr africanamerican right now. No problems. Back then, it was the scary part that red lining part was i think contributed to the problem. Very few people in particular politics were asking those kinds of questions. People were saying whats going on. For instance, i will say this. It was in the late 50s that we had what were called investigative arrest. They would say that a person 62, 250 pounds, had committed a crime. Any young black man who fit that description could be locked up over a weekend. They arrested 1,000 young black men for a crime that occurred. The detroit Police Department was very proud of this. In fact, we had the community that was saying, my god, this is crazy. There was an attempt to integrate the department to stop this. Eventually, it did stop. But it was out of control with that. In regards to the National Guard, i worked with these guys during the rebellion. Unfortunately, for the National Guards people, they were not looked upon as anyone who could do the job. They were looked upon as weekend warriors. There was a lot of respect for them. I saw them with their bayonets on their guns and so forth. They were people who had not been trained either. Neither one of us were trained how to handle these situations. It was kind of frightening and the fact that they didnt know how to handle this nor were they fully equipped as we were not to deal with these kinds of situations. Once 101st got in, it was like the community said, these guys, they just got back from the war. They are different. The reputation of 101st they did little shooting in compare to the National Guard and dpd. You know, we moved right over the city line second day of the riot, it had been prearranged. It was strange to see the 101st. They used a Church Parking lot as a turn around spot. It totally is jarring to sit there and say, this is detroit, my god, has it come to this. I think a lot of people thats their memory, the tanks. Particularly the tanks. Anybody who saw tanks rolling down the street wherever it was, they aint going to forget it. I had spent four years in the air force prior to this. The last year being in vietnam. To come back to my city or our city, tim, and to see tanks roll down the street and to be a part of this as a Law Enforcement officer and to say, wait a minute, theres some Serious Problems here that are existing and what are we doing about it. I keep going back to the fact there had been a history of problems that existed, whether policing, housing, poverty, jobs. All those things had existed. Theres very little being done about it. And i think people wanted to sweep this under the rug. Look, this is something that they can take care of, meaning someone else or the minority community. It was not a healthy set of circumstances for our city. You can call on the phone lines to ask our guests questions. Tweet us at cspan history. We have a facebook question from peter. Are there any Historical Resources on the people who died in detroit . Well, theres one in particular. The Detroit Free Press did a piece. It would have been Early September of 67. Its called 43 who died. Most people thought the 43 who died were they were looters, snipers. Free press did a pretty thorough investigation and found out that more than half were not were at the wrong place at the wrong time. Ike, you were in the middle of this. Bullets were anything. Sometimes it was like the bullet was to whom it may concern. It was that bad. It was an unfortunate set of circumstances which you had lets go this way. It was where people could dehumanize someone. If they had those tendencies to shoot or kill someone, this was the perfect opportunity. What i saw as a Police Officer i was usually the one black officer with a series of white officers. The things that they would say. For instance, there was a sergeant who was assigned with 11 officers. Im the one black officer. We are driving. People are looting. Thousands of people looting. Im going to use the word that this he used. Were driving down the street. The sergeant stops three cars. Everybody out. We had our bayonets. Were standing in the middle of the street. He yells to this thousands of people, all you niggers, get off the fing street. Im going to die. I went through vietnam. I lived through being shot at before. This is crazy. When he says that, its like all the Police Officers looked at me. Most of the black people were looking at me, too. This guy has to be out of his damn mind. What the hell did you say . I said all the niggers get off the street. At this point, they started throwing bricks and bottles at us. We jumped in our cars and took off. The three officers in the car with me, they said, he has to be out of his damn mind. Does he realize what he said . That was common place. You think about this in terms of if he was saying that to hundreds of black people on the street, what the hell were other people saying at this time . To insight. Lets hear from anton. Go ahead. Caller hello. I wanted to give my perspective on this. The economical impact it had after the uprising. Im not going to term it a riot. What we gotta look at. What it did was it decimated a city. Along with the black people, we did not trust white officers, especially white male officers, because engagement with them was always violent. Another issue you see today you see it today with young kids and the interaction they have with white officers and how theyre gunned down. The psychological impact is there because it makes a neighborhood frightened of the police. We never have a good nature or good will toward them. You never until i think we start recognizing to look at everybody humanity. Thats what i got to say. Lets start with the economic forces. Huge. A couple things. There were a lot of africanamerican businesses, entrepreneurs on the old hasting street which gets wiped out. There was a great essay. Joe battle owned a record store. John lee looker hung out there. Joes music shop. He ends up gets burned out. It literally killed him. He just drank himself to death. I think that story got repeated over and over and over again. I think that there was a lot theres been a lot of talk over the last couple decades about africanamerican capitalism, why thats important. This didnt help. It just it trashed a lot of africanamerican businesses and white businesses, too. By the way, i want to not conflate something. My dad owned a Jewelry Store on the east side in 1969. He left in 1969, not because of this. It was because a junky came in with a gun and took everything. That was ike, you would know about this. There was a lot of heroin being flooded on the east side. It became flat out dangerous. This had nothing to do with the riot, nothing to do with the uprising. Had nothing do with race if you want to know the truth. It became crazy. That was not good. Im glad you mentioned marcia. Shes my neighbor. We talk about this. This was not a race riot. This was an equal opportunity riot. You would see more and more people looting. I think it was an exceptional opportunity for people to do things. During the course of this, the first two days or so, people would go into stores, break windows and things like that. It was almost comical. For instance, we were driving down the street and we see this white cadillac thats a convertible. Theres two africanamerican men in the front seat. Both of them have portable tvs. One guy is riding with a portable tv and two guys black guys, they have a sofa on the back of the convertible. Its comical almost. They were sitting there on sofa, both of them had tvs. They looked at us. We looked at them. The reality is that we couldnt arrest that many people. Each car could probably get one or two people in the car. Once we arrested those people, go and take them into the station and people would go back and do what they were doing in terms of looting. It was almost comical the things going on because, again, we didnt have we played the conrad mallet tape . I dont think so. I dont want to do a spoiler. He describes watching this. A guy walking out with ten hats, ten hats, one on top of the other. It was all our Jewelry Store, we lived above the Jewelry Store. We got a knock on the door 4 30 in the morning from the cops saying, look, we dont know whats going to happen on the east side. We dont know how bad this is going to get. My memory is that monday morning, loading every last watch, every last diamond into the back of our station wagon. A lot of the Business People took to staying in their businesses. They would arm themselves. It saved a great number of them. In fact, we had the first wave of asian Business People who would put on their windows, not to be demeaning, as black people put soul brother, but koreans would put soul brother, too. Some were protected that way. It was we seen this. We hoped it never happens against. But its a reality of what occurred in our city. We look at the meanness by some people but also the dehumanization of what occurred in terms of how people took peoples lives. Lets hear from cheryl in florida. Thanks for calling. Caller let me compliment you, first of all, on a great job you all are doing with this coverage. My cousin worked for 40 years at the Detroit Free Press and was very proud. Im sitting here emotional. I have tears in my eyes. Not just because of the horrible memories but because i miss my hometown so much. I lived in fort lauderdale, florida, but i was born and raised in detroit, michigan. Whenever i meet anybody from detroit, i always feel warm and fuzzy because detroiters are so special. Im so proud to be from detroit. I graduated from wayne state university. I taught school in detroit before i moved to florida. My father had a big business and store on six mile road in the 60s. I saw it destroyed. I also saw my father, a very strong, proud detroitborn man, rebuild his business. I remember the fear and i remember the smoke and i remember the feeling of wondering when it would all end. This is an emotional call, as you can tell by my voice. This is a very couple of emotional hours for me. But im so glad im able to watch this and just be able to say that im from detroit. Thank you so much for listening to me and for the great job you are doing. Thank you. She mentioned, when will it all end. I remember sitting on our front porch. Were listening to gunfire. There was a lot going on a mile away. And that was the thing. My brother who was four years younger, even then sitting there saying, we got out in time. But im thinking, what is next . Then ike may remember this, 1 1968, is this going to fire again . Nobody knew. The fear kept on going. Dr. Kings assassination . That was one of many things. There were a lot of things going on. That five to tenyear period Heather Thompson mentioned this. That ten years is really key in the citys history. Our reaction to all of this and what were going to do next. That was always a fear. I go back to after the commission with two societies, what did we do . We had the new detroit that started up. We had people who came and who tried to do whether new detroit or the other businesses that started up in detroit because of that. There was always skepticism. We had people who left detroit who went whats the mississippi and killed. Viola. People who left detroit to go and help with the civil rights movement. So many of those people were active here, but they went to those other places. We had people in the seminary who went out into the street to try and help. We had ministers and priests who went into the street to try and get people to understand whats best for the city also was best for them. There are a great number of people who worked hard to assist the city in whatever it might be. I think unfortunately, we had a lot of people who played the blame game of they burned their houses down, let them suffer. The flight from detroit started long before 67. It started after the Second World War for a number of reasons. In 1953, we had close to 1,900,00 people. As a young boy, my family could not find a place to live because of race. All these things were a part of what we had to live with and try and remedy. This is grigs who lives in michigan. Caller how are you doing . I was enjoying your program. I was raised on lynnwood street. I heard some of your guests speak of that. I went to central high school. During the riots, there were troops National Guard troops in it. I didnt like it because that was my chance of going and getting my drivers license, having drivers training. I couldnt do it because the riot broke out. When it first started, the first couple days it was festive. But after that, it wasnt no fun anymore. As i say, i turned 17 that year. I wasnt a kid but yet not a grown man. My mother didnt play that looting stuff. If i had stole something, i couldnt have brought it back to the house. I just stood and watched. You want to blame anybody, this is coming from the truth. Im not being biased or anything. It was the fault of those white cops. They would come through the neighborhood. They had the big four. They would just bring havoc on us. It wasnt no fun. We couldnt do anything. It turned a lot of people to the criminal mind. My god, if i cant do anything right, lets do something wrong. You couldnt enjoy yourself. Blind pigs, it was just some it wasnt nothing to be coming in there tearing up stuff and arresting people for. People were just drinking, having fun and the like. Got you. Thank you very much. You talked about he said the festive nature of what was going on as far as the looting. It truly was. Let me go back. Hes a central grad. We would always play central. They would beat us. There was a festive nature the first couple days. Then the shooting started and it got worse and worse. People would look at us and they would smile because they knew we couldnt arrest them. Probably most of the things that happened were minor things. People who owned the businesses, they were trying to protect as much as they could. You would see kids going in and grabbing things. The other part of this is as he said, parents some parents stopped their kids from bringing stolen stuff to their places. I saw this. I saw mothers in particular grab their sons and daughters who had stolen something and tried to take it home and would literally beat the heck out of their kids on the street and say, take that stuff back. Or they would ask us to take it back. That was something that we should really talk about. We had some parents who did this. Talk about how ugly it got, i heard over and over again for first couple days festive but after that totally frightening. I have an old friend who is a reporter on the cbs station here who spent the last part of the riot in her bathtub. That was the safest place in the house. Reading books. It was that frightening because as i mentioned, bullets are flying everywhere. Nobody knew what was going to happen next. It was out of control. The commission and some other accounts, this idea of sniper fire. What was the reality of that . Talk to ike. There was not as much sniper fire as is reported. I was there. I was shot at multiple times. I think the reality is that, the police we the police were shooting out street lights. The assumption was when you shot shoot a bullet up, it will go someplace. We would hear and feel bullets i can tell you, i was on jerry road with some officers and some National Guard people. Bullets were skrimi iskimming t pavement. The assumption was people were shooting at us. On the other side of this, there were people National Guards people shooting at the street lights. There was not as much sniping as was reported to be. The other part of this is that as you rode with people who were frightened, petrified, and they would see someone in a window and they would start shooting at them. Thank god, the people that i rode with, they didnt hit anyone. I remember specifically we were on west chicago and this guy with this machine gun, he starts shooting at this window. What the hell are you doing . Theres somebody in the window. There was somebody in the window. It was a kid. Thank god, he missed the kid. He tore the house up. Those things. 43 who died was a 4yearold girl. There had been sniper fire. Her uncle sitting next to her lights up a cigarette. I believe it was the National Guard just light the place up. Took her out. Later it was unclear how much sniper fire there was. I dont think there was any question later that even though there might have been sniper fire, you dont light up the whole house with machine gunfire. When he mentioned central high school, we the National Guard, Detroit Police and the state police and the wayne county sheriff, we had probably hundreds of officers there at some point because there was i guess they had to figure someplace we were going to be. I remember specifically there was a helicopter flying over. They told us there were two guys on the roof across the street who had weapons. Thats one case we could say specifically that people were armed. But i think most of the incidents, that was not necessarily so. Lets hear from deanne in georgia. Caller yes. Im calling. Im a native of detroit. Im in georgia now. I was 15 years old during the 1967 riot at the fox theater. I was at when they sent us home because the riot had started. One comment about the blind pig. Im a retired nurse. I met many people during my job. One particular patient i talked with, she was there at the blind pig during the raid. She said that a soldier was home from vietnam on leave and they were giving him a party there at the blind pig when it got raided. They raided it but during the raid, a pregnant woman i dont know if this story was ever told was knocked down the stairs by the police. Thats when it got all out of hand. And ive been watching your program. I just wanted to make that comment and one more for my cousin who passed, ronald, who was working at max stamp and chrysler plant during the 1967 riots. He had to get a pass to go to work. On his way to work, he was shot by the police or the National Guard. I dont know which one. They thought he was dead. They took him out. They had a makeshift morgue out there. They say 43 people died. But i do believe it was more. Because he said they thought he was dead. So they started packing him. When they packed him, he woke up. He woke up. And he lived for another 25 he died from cancer. He had buckshot in his head. Thank you for that story. Tim, anything you want to add . There are all kinds of rumors of people being shoved down the sewers, pretty extensive press did see it was sewers i dont think it was higher than 43. I dont think so. First of all, if somebody got killed and shoved down the sewer, there would ultimately be a missing person report. I think that sounds about right. You were closer to it than i was. Since 1967, theres been rumors that more people were killed. I dont think so. I think a lot of people were shot, but i dont think so. If we can find the bodies, because usually, if theres someone missing, theres a, some kind of report on that but that wasnt the case. But i feel for this woman. This is jean in villa park, illinois. Hi. Hi. I just want to say that i used to work with your sister in wayne county, always a sweetheart. I was 9 years old at the time of the riot. We lived across the gas station. I remember the National Guard coming down the street in the tanks, positioned in front of our home, we had to sleep in the bathroom many a night because of the gunfire and everything. And i remember them coming into our house asking us for receipts for food at the time. My mother had a friend that would bring us food, he worked at great lakes steel, and he would bring the food in because we couldnt get out because everything was closed off, but we had to have receipts. And i remember them specifically asking us for receipts. And it was just a really, you know, thinking about it today, it was just a really trying time. And i can remember it like it was yesterday as a 9yearold. I remember our neighbors, and we lived right there at the boston edison area, one of the most influential areas which was really considered the hood. But it was middleclass families, it was two family class, it was a solid neighborhood again until the drugs and riots decimated the area. But i have a friend now that lives on boston, and when i went back on glen court, the lights were off, our house is gone, it looked like a jungle. And this is 2017. Shame on the city of detroit. Thanks. Jean, thank you for the story and for your perspective. Chief, anything to add . Well, jean, please dont say shame on my city. We are very happy that things are changing and making some significant improvements. I understand what youre saying, but please come back and see some of the changes that were making. I mean, when i was fortunate to become deputy mayor and there was mayor archer, there were a great number of things that occurred. But i can tell you this, you come back and you see theres significant changes being made. And as we say, we started in one location and we moved from the center out. Were trying to do that. And were trying to recruit more people to come into the city. You know, mr. Gilbert has said he wants to make detroit the taketown of the midwest. Thats important. Hes trying to do that. Look at the fact that those buildings that you saw downtown were unoccupied for a long period of time. Now they are occupied. And were seeing, not only in that area of center city in some places, but in the neighborhoods there are buildings being built, there are businesses moving to those areas and people are moving back into the city. So that is important. So please, please, please, dont say shame on my city, because i still love it. Ive been here since 1953. And we were trying to do tremendous things. When i became deputy mayor, its important to understand, detroit was the worst place in a world to have a heart attack. The worst place. The Response Time was in 20 minutes. Now we are down to just over six or seven minutes. That was important. But people had left. People would say, the last person in detroit would say, turn out the lights. But see the other thing, too, is my Old Neighborhood, it was a belgian neighborhood, it was built as a belgian neighborhood in 1925, those homes really werent nobody was expecting these things to last forever. Well, now my Old Neighborhood, theres not much of it left, but what do you do about that . You just cant wave your arm and say, were going to do all of this. This whole thing has been a long time. We got to where we are, this is a long time coming. Longterm process, it truly is. John from san diego, california. Youre next. Were running short on time so jump right in with your question or comment. Thank you. First of all, i think the problem then was separation between the police, the teachers, the people who were well paid and those that werent. The problem in detroit is that it has this greater separation now as it did then. And san diegos got the same problem. The median way to detrace 26,000 Police Officers make three times that amount. In san diego its five times. And we have a lot of problem with the separation. Its somewhat like fort apache. Police and teachers commuting into work, getting higher paid off the taxpayers, theres not a true integration and it is more than racial. Thank you for everything youre doing. I love detroit. I was there during the riots, actually, the uprising. Uprising is correct. Thank you very much. Thank you, john. Go ahead. John, you hit something that listen, we used to have what was called residency. Some people dont like this, but when residency occurred, detroit lost most of its population in terms of city employees. Of course, we have black and white people that are left the city. This is most destructive to our city. We have people that committed crimes and so forth, but this is very important. People who live in the city tend to care more about the city. As the mayor and i, we drove around the city, and we could see all these homes. At one point we had probably 60,000 vacant homes. Look, this takes a longterm process to remedy the situation thats been going on for 60, 70 years more than 50 years. So it its going to take us some time to do what we have to do to change this. My Old Neighborhood was already going down 50 years ago. It was worse particularly during the 80s with crack cocaine. Nobody is going to turn this thing around. And by the way, stuff like industrialization, auto factories moving out, this is has been going on, i think you made a reference, since the 50s. The drug problem was so critical to our city and probably a lot of cities. But because detroit was not like most cities that have so many highrises, we have single homes, but the drug problems caused us to be at one point the murder capital of the world. It caused us to lose a number of Police People and other people. And so we had to have a true renaissance of people that are concerned, not only about the city and people moving on, but ridding our community of the drug problems and the impact it had on so many young people and the educational process. What is your source of hope as far as you both talked about the positive future of detroit, what do you look to as a beacon of hope . Well, i think were at least talking. I think ten years ago, i did some stuff 40 years after and didnt get a lot of people talking about it, people are being honest about the programs. I think that im starting to see, you know, i dont want to sound cynical, but my joke is that you turn detroit around. There are other things, i think a couple of people say how much they love the city. In the end, we care about it. I see people and since were discu discussing this, people wouldnt ever say they are from detroit. People now say, im from detroit and want to be from detroit. People who live in the suburban community, they say im from detroit and moving into the city. And its all races doing this. I think that is very important. We have been joined by ike mckinnon, the former mayor, talking about the 50th year an versery of what happened in 1967. Thank you. Im from dearborn. Thank you for clarifying. And we want to thank the Detroit Free Press for letting us use their facility. And the Detroit Historical society for helping us with their input on this project. This is all taking place today on this 50th year anniversary. Thank you for watching. Particularly as youre watching American History tv on cspan3. We have a facebook question from peter who say, are there any Historical Resources on the people who died in detroit . Well, the Detroit Free Press you can be featured during the next live program. Join the conversation on facebook at facebook. Com cspanhistory and on twitter cspanhistory. Next on reel america, ku klux klan the invisible empire a 1965 documentary produced by cbs reports. It traced the kkk from the resurgence in 1915 inspire bid the silent film birth of a nation through the post world war ii years. The film includes ku klux klan