To be a secretary. And part of the project we are doing, we plan to open the secretarys room in 2020. So if you want to hear more about that, there is some in your packs about the project. And , if churchill was trying to think of what we had in the collection. We got a gift from londonderry of a replica, its one of my favorite items in the house. It is in the library. And i was really interested yesterday to start to hear a little bit about churchills relationship with attlee, we will hear a lot more about that. So we have another family of hillss, like the church here, we have the bews here this morning. Very excited about what they are going to say. We have lord bew, professor of politics at the university in belfast. Bew who is john professor of i have got that wrong. I am sorry, lord bew. Lord bew is our politics expert, and john bew is history is our history professor and Foreign Affairs and awardwinning historian. They will give us an excellent talk this my, starting off with john. [applause] john thank you. Can everybody hear me ok . I would just like to thank the organizers again for in and fantastic conference so far. It has been wonderful at many levels. And a particular thanks for myself to michael bishop, who extended the invitation to me and doubly a pleasure because in 2012 we first met. I gave a lecture at the library of congress, at which about six people turned up at and michael was one of them. We have stayed in touch since then. He was with me in my darkest hour, if you like. [laughter] its very nice to be heard today. My father and i were discussing how to break up our talk, hopefully it will be Something Like a conversation. But well we are related, our books are not related. So then we had a discussion on who would go first. On the basis of youth and book sales we went with me. ,[laughter] he will note i interrupt that he will interrupt at various points. I want to talk about the relationship that Clement Attlee had with Winston Churchill. And i want to talk about the i think attlee offers about churchills character and strategy during the Second World War. I can Start Talking about churchill and attlee through many anecdotes. And not true, some true, some things that churchill said , that hement attlee was a modest man with much to be modest about. Or a sheep in wolfs clothing, or the famous one that is perhaps too crude to mention. The story of them entering the evident during the Second World War, were where apparently winston shuffled off to one corner and said im modest to you, to which churchill replied anytime you see Something Big you want to nationalize it. [laughter] tellm not sure, i must you im not sure if it is true, but while there was a lot of disparaging remarks, the interesting thing is churchill would never allow anyone else to speak despairing of attlee. And he would reply and say, no, no, mr. Allete is a great patriot. Do not ever criticize him in my company. There is a close relationship that extends to the latter portion of their lives. One of my favorite stories, attlee would stick by his side and churchill could hear anything back. That says something about the relationship. It has a number of interesting punctuation points. It goes back to the fact that the first connection between them is that they shared a governess, who was a homeschooler, who didnt last very long. The attlees used to tell this story. The mayor would come in saying whats wrong, with kenwood replied she is very cross, please remove her from the room. The second connection is that attlee was a conservative, and a peer. And an imperialist. For one thing he got in trouble was overzealously celebrating the release of ladysmith, he was reading Winston Churchills reports. Thats when he became aware of churchill. When churchill was elected, at least remembered reading about attlee remembered reading about him. By 1911, this is perhaps my favorite connection between the two. Attlee is there watching it going on as a social worker and socialist in the local community. This odd scene of churchill with his top hat and cane ordering the army and attlee on the other side with the working classes. It really is a very striking one. Five years later, attlee finds himself fighting in churchills campaign. He is the second man deserved. I will let my father come in here, its important that i will come back to it. We have talked a bit about it. I agree with everything that is heard. I want to add one point, its very important for ireland, its a good section of the soldiers who died are irish. Its the type of soldiers. The modern nationalist who joined up and died. At gallipoli. As a particular group that is the floor of our society. They die in droves. Churchill knew some of these people, he would have known the sons of irish mps who died. You will see there are many sons of irish that died. You knew these people, he says very little about it. He always writes a lot about Irish Military prowess. The significance of this is in 1921, when you get the troubles in ireland, the bitterness and savagery, organized noble energy. He constantly says where are the decent irishman, worker the where are the moderates on both sides. The answer is a lot of them were dead. Thats something he never really faces up to. Attlee is carried off of the battlefield three times in the first world war. It becomes a major part of his political identity, distinguishes him. The relationship with churchill thereafter. When they are having arguments in 1920s and attlee is always prepared to give the devil his due, churchill was right about gallipoli. The reason why that mattered was it set the tone for the relationship between them. You can imagine the meeting. They do meet over the course of the 20s and 30s. They have this respect. One thing that is striking is it blows up the idea of the wilderness years, in his letters to his family, winston looms so large throughout the 30s, and a point of reference, hes constantly referred to. Attlee thinks winston is off the mark. On the last near after attlee believes in the same. He is an apologist for total is not an apologist for totalitarianism. That core sense of western energetic bipartisanship really starts. By the time you come to may 1940, this famous cartoon called all behind you winston, it has the Coalition Government lining up behind him as he rolls up his sleeves and marches into battle. He asked for the original. And later when he went up for an exhibition, his wife insisted it is his proudest moments to step into the work from coalition in 1940. Its not just that relationship that means a broader and large respect for churchills mind, it shapes the labor into the war from coalition. He says a few things about gallipoli, he says theres a reason he thinks why it was badly organized, due to generalship and squabbling at home. The first thing he says to churchill is i will not squabble over things, i was on old gallipoli man, you give me whatever seat you want. He has a strong view of internal struggling and causing issues, jostling for advantage is not the way to proceed. He is under immense pressure from his party to do precisely that throughout the war. He is always sticking and backing with churchill, his colleague comes to the conclusion that at least decided right attlee decided right. When he is 40, the war does not go well for winston. There are plenty of sharks circling around them. Its not just during the last, and attlee backed churchill, it was all the major strategic decisions. That relationship is actually crucial. Churchill did appreciate him on all of his strategic decisions. Who is criticizing attlee . Also the generals, atlee backs churchill against them. You can say he does so because he is a simplistic thinker. Higher strategy, which distinguished churchill from the staff, believe i had a more limited conception of strategy. Also at least had a better appreciation and understanding of what he calls the precarious balance of coalition in warfare. In particular, the generals, he feels that they did not appreciate the difficulties of getting america into the war, but also the necessity of spearing them towards strategic theaters never in valleys more importantly. This comes to the point which is that active american statesmanship, the decision to fight first in europe is the most selfless act of statement ship, but not an inevitability. Attlee following churchill release if he has to achieve, believes if he has to achieve, through this affective relationship with americans across the piece. His generals who were squabbling or complaining about eisenhowers command. Secondly, attlee understands with the key strategic maneuvers, the politics of what churchill is doing. Therefore, he supports things that generals regard as absurd. For example, the attention grabbing, Agenda Setting maneuvers that churchill wants to try. Under churchill, britain had one army engaged in three theaters. Attlee appreciates and understands what churchill is trying to do, set the critical agenda. The big example is britain and the invasion of italy. I think attlee had a refined appreciation. Im going to hand it to my father to say attlee is responsible for one of the most incisive and interesting quotes about churchill. He said i used to compare him to one of those layer cakes, he had a 17th century layer, 18 century layer, 19thcentury layer, sometimes even a 20th century layer. The thing about him, you are never sure which layer was up the most. That reminds me of a different layer into the cake. The irish ambassador stance towards him during the war and a meeting. He had known him a long time and backed him in politics in the 20th century. It was a longstanding relationship. He says he stuck in the 18th century due to some of the things which i will come back to. He said you just dont understand he really gets it. He knows whats going to have to come after this war. You are falling for this image of a 19th hes stuck in the 18th century. You are falling for something which is not really there in style and substance. Churchill knows exactly what is going to happen. Very interesting conversation. To add to that, after finishing the book. The telegraph from churchill in 1943, at if ireland comes in now, we will support him whether he thinks the Union Ireland has demonstrated british were for. Everything will change. There are a lot that dont play with this. As the war went on, nations all over the world started to declare war on hitler. They can see these people leaving them the spoils. Having been neutral, many respects objectively exit the german war effort. What do we do, they will certainly die. Most of the captains are Holding Churchill back there. By the end of the work, he is in inend of tghhe war, he is the same position. They dont come in as he makes his speech. He talks about the quality with hitler. And says the light of freedom is only preserved by the fact that Northern Ireland is part of the war. American soldiers would be stationed there. Which were vital to the war in the atlantic. There is a problem here. John, when he talks about attlees talking about somebody who did engage sympathetically what churchill. When i talk about ireland and churchill, churchill for all of his life engaged with island, was fascinated by it. Ireland has a colder and more ambiguous relationship with churchill. The unevenness between the two talks. To return to the beginning, churchills whole life is has the significant irish phases in it. His first public appearance is in dublin, his father is working in dublin. Churchills grandfather, a portrait to the dublin press. A read the reports about this child in the dublin press in 1878, not everybody thought it was the most pitiful child they had ever seen. From that moment on, he had stories. More importantly, he said he remembered the present he received from thomas burke, a top civil servant. The most important assassination of the 19th century, in 1882 in the phoenix park. All these, his cousins in ireland, one of whom is very much on the side. Standing for parliament in all the time, these families engaged a high level in politics in all the time he is involved in politics. After he joined the liberals, churchill gradually becomes accepting of the broad liberal view that hold rule is right. That home rule is right. When he first joins the liberals, he says im making the switch, but i dont believe liberals are right for ireland. Over the next few years, irish nationalists picked up on it, he becomes more identified. He mimics in some way, broadly speaking, his career of his father. This is a sketchy way to look at it. His father is a very strong unionist, then had a flirtation with irish nationalism in the mid 1880s. And he reverted to being a strong unionist. In some ways, churchill has the same structure. He started off as a strong unionist, then had an engagement with irish nationalism, then in his later career is identified more with unionism. All the time there are shades to this, after a very strong, there is a run the message sent to the irish embassy. All the time, thats the broad picture, and he follows his fathers path. Its not the only reason why hes so interested, why yet to make concessions, he does think of the irish as a principal part of the English Speaking people. Therefore, we will talk about that for example, the importance of the irish in american politics, very important. To holding him back from engaging in the war. That was the selling point, we of the nazis, that we can hold back america because of our control of this population. Is aware of all of this, he gives up in the end. He writes a piece in which he says i have always wanted the irish to be to be part of it, but thats not happening. He writes an essay which is absolutely brilliant. I think he did it with his cousin will have a lot of knowledge of irish nationalism. Its a brilliant essay which is superior to most of the subsequent academic historiography of ireland for the next 50 years. One of the things about that essay, theres a boy who was seen ireland, great contemporaries are all people we know at some level or have seen. In this case, he had seen it down in 1881. One of the things is is not just the greatness, its brilliance is it sees the conservative side of ireland, which is what attracted churchills father to him. He sees it clearly in the way many historians miss for decades. A brilliant essay, but also meant for churchill. Also a lament for churchill. At the end of the 1930s, he is saying ireland is really important. For 40 years its the parliament. From 18801920, it convulses. These difficult issues arose during the home rule crisis, i was in on that, i worked on that. Actually, probably made quite a lot of mistakes in the timing of that. Switched around from one position to another. Then i dealt with the ira war, back to a reasonable compromise conclusion. This conference, he was widely expected for doing that. He describes it in 1938 as a small place, collection of agricultural parties gather together for no significant purpose. Its not just the kind of job of what it becomes, here are my here am i, Winston Churchill, this is big stuff. I was heavily involved in it. Certainly in 1921, played a major role in switching off this war, which looked as if it was getting completely and utterly out of control. This is the interesting thing, we have talked about this. Peacethese, equally valiant and in peace equally valiant and strong and knowing when to make the switch. He is driving the british position. You can only fight. He faces up to this, he doesnt hide from this. He says we are doing this, he said openly we are doing terrible things. Theres propaganda against the ira. Whatever you say about the ira, they werent actually cannibals. Thats what he called them. When he thinks by enough application of dirty war against a dirty war, that they are going to compromise and not push for an irish republic, which is a humiliation to britain. They are not going to push to take over north ireland with one million people. In his view, that prospect lead led to civil war added one ad infinitum. Dragging in america. When you get to compromise on those big things, and you meet back, each one of the very first people. He is in the minority in the cabinet, we fought them hard enough that they know we are not a pushover. Now we go to the deal. He is way ahead of most of them, people you would not expect in the cabinet, wellknown liberals or soft type people. You fight, then you reach the point where you cant kill it. Where you calculate you can get a compromise. And you go for it. Hes right about this he makes the deal. When hes talking about that, he writes an article 10 years later, he calls the bravery sticking to the deal, because it caused his life. Churchill clearly observant of all of this, knows this. He recalls castlereigh, who is connected. And he recalls him and says after napoleon is defeated, he immediately says no more from the french people. He says this is what you have to do. The difficulty is at the end of war and conflict, its the hardest struggle with yourself. Its a brilliant essay. He recalls this, we heard yesterday about germany, when i saw the rebel the japanese my bitterness against the german people. This is a part of churchills broader intellectual legacy which ireland has played a big farm of performing the way he thinks about big part of performing the way he thinks about these things. I was really heavily involved in this stuff. When the work comes up, he explained how he disliked irish neutrality. They are real military reasons for disliking it. There is no question in my mind. Its reasonable to say ireland was so divided, it could and never come to bring inside. Come to britains side. That is a perfectly reasonable thing to say. The types of support, irish people, who were able to join up could not have done this. The deal wasnt a bad deal. A lot of irish workers went to england and played a major role in wartime productions. Given the divisions in irish society, which britain is at least partly responsible for, you cant do better than that. There is equally no doubt that thousands of british sailors died because the decision was made in 1938 to actually rewrite churchills deal with collins and give back the treaty ports that britain had in ireland. There are still questions the churchill denounced him. Everything he says about the deal was justified. Chamberlain, was he motivated . I think the british have an 800yearold quarrel with ireland. Lets do peace deals everywhere, lets not have a war. Thats a big part of chamberlains calculations, which you can see is bogus and not likely to work. Even with devalera, who was the irish leader he hated the most, he regarded as having undone churchills deal with collins, quite accurately. In 1953, churchill met him and even with him there was a certain type of loki low key reconciliation. Theres this emotional engagement, always a massive respect for irish soldiers. This is why he talks about the irish vcs, one of whom is actually english. What he has done, he is an english caraway who at one point left the army, deserted effectively, then wanted to rejoin. Churchill thought he was you were talking about the wonderfully brave dealings, he was actually he was radford. In that case, as you all know all the leading generals are irish. The fighting brooks. Alan brooke montgomery, john dale, churchill has this respect for irish warlike capacity. Respect for their literary capacity. In the end of 1948, he engages with his father and the dream is provoked by somebody sending him memorabilia from belfast, visits intes to his belfast and to his fathers role in belfast. Many people argue that churchill was dancing on his fathers grave. When he went to belfast, he was on the nationalist side. His father went on the union ist side. Thats what the dream is about, the conversation his father talked about a lot of things, history, where he was socialist, when you consider what a small place island is, the amount of is, the place ireland amount of time given in the dream and the engagement. All the massive issues that churchill has engaged in, that shows you the importance emotionally that island always that ireland always had for churchill. John his father comes back and says, you are a socialist . And he says, they are badly dressed, but they are completely royalists and they arent bad at all. Just the irish cromwell comparison. He fights the war with ferocity. This is where the cromwell comparison comes up in the Second World War with military strategy. He compares them to the various war crime leaders, and says he is the most superior. Cromwell is a better soldier because marlborough was a better strategist. But if you compare to the wartime leaders, william pitt in the napoleonic and french revolutionary wars didnt speak for england sufficiently. Another failed that he didnt have enough military knowledge to push against the generals when they were making mistakes. The difference is churchill combined the sufficient knowledge of strategy and fighting itself. I think that a war leader in a democratic edge must be a beacon for his country as well. He says later on, you offered us blood, oil, sweat, and tears, and we accept it. It is a remarkable understanding of winstons strength. I think we have time for some questions. [indiscernible] john the mic is coming. There is an apocryphal story about churchill meeting collins. I heard liam neeson tell the story, so i dont know how true it is. The other question i had, i have read various conflicting accounts of churchills role in the black and tans. Paul i am not sure about the first story, but the importance of ireland to churchill. It is lady labrey. He thinks [indiscernible] it was a great relaxation for him. There is a number of close, intimate meetings, and there are a number of engagements in which churchill probably said they were taken to character and probably went too far in terms of the type of offers he was prepared to make to collins. In the end, it all stabilize for a variety of reasons. There is no point in this sense, liam neeson is right, it was emotionally connected relationship between those two men. They found someone who was brave enough to make this compromise stick. Oddly, your other question about the black and tans, i am making this quite clear. Churchill is behind the repression in ireland. He sets over in winter, and the argument is simple. This is a dirty war. But basically it is not classical military engagement. It is shooting the local policeman as he walks on the street. This is the real color of the ira war. There is only one way of dealing with it, basically with a policy of assassination. He is totally frank about this. There are 200 measures around and no one brought to justice. You may hate this, but this is what it is about. It is about dealing with 30 war through the means of a dirty war, but also promising if you get it through your head to compromise, we are up straight away. The deal is on. Churchill stands over brutal methods. Look what the ira is doing, incredibly brutal. It is fairly surgical. British intelligence is not defeated by the ira, but an awful lot of wealth, despite a very heavy blow, a lot of the assassinations it is very important to understand this. He would acknowledge this. Both of you are very distinguished historians, but you do so much more. Lord bew played a pivotal war in the agreement that brought peace to ireland, and john is a prolific commentator in the statesman and elsewhere in the Foreign Affairs. In some ways, you personify the International Churchill society. I wonder if you could comment on how your historical sense informs your engagement with Current Affairs . Paul i would say one thing about the good friday agreement. I was always aware if you look at churchills historical words about it were brilliant. But in general, you look at the historical assessment, they are very thoughtful. Very, very determined to be just to irish causes, irish emotions. Very effective. We all stand for a principle outcome. The best outcome is a united ireland. If i cannot have it, then consent principle rules. That means the large minority in the northeast county should not come under an irish government. That is the principle in the good friday agreement. All the things we agreed to in the good friday agreement, they are all modeled in the Churchill Collins pact. If you want an easy list of the areas where there should be cooperation, it is all there with churchill. Churchill allows easy access to this. I think it is perfectly clear, and a logical argument to say that the types of historical compromise we have in ireland is it has endured for almost 20 years. His reading on the subject he wrote to a man with the irish mps. It also reflects his engagement of irish history. The quality of what he writes about irish history is extraordinary. John he talks about the importance of history and understanding current political challenges that it is the factor. You dont need a historian to come give examples by way of anecdote. They are binding the discussion that kissinger and nixon had. On the moon landing, he is talking about a revolutionary change in British Foreign policy in american foreignpolicy, and they talk about the books they are reading at that time. The nixonkissinger readings together, the man on the moon, they are talking about Teddy Roosevelts use of the white mans burden, which people are understandably allergic to today. Britain in the early 20th century was faced with a threat from germany. They discussed lord hathaway. And many of you know, they discuss a book by lawrence thompson, a professor at the university of california about britains darkest hour, and nixon and kissinger reached for churchill, and precisely for the purpose we heard about. Churchills career where he is yearning for peace and order and stability, something that goes the immediate triumph. It is that this is a living, breathing calculation. Without naming names, history lives larger in the history of president s of different eras. But it is a living, breathing historical portrait. It is there for many. That is the way to think about it. Thank you. [applause] this week and on the cspan Networks President ial speechwriters next to obama president nixon to obama, then how your zip code impact your health. Caller newsdaily Foundation Editor and chief on his book the art of the donald, lessons from americas philosopher in chief. The mayflower. Tv on cspanistory 3, Penn State University history professor on the u. S. Capitols art and architecture. The groundbreaking ceremony of the dwight d. Eisenhower memorial in washington, d. C. This weekend on the cspan networks. Up next, from the 34th annual Winston Churchill conference historian kevin ruane discusses , Winston Churchill and the development and use of nuclear weapons. He is the author of churchill and the bomb in war and cold war. This event from new york city is about 45 minutes. All right, ladies and to introduce our next speaker, we have a very special lady. [applause] edwina good morning. Can you hear me all right . Clear as a bell, i hope. It is lovely to be here for another conference. Each one i come to seems to be even better than the last. We have kevin, kevin ruane here, who has written this very, very