Spirit seemed to emerge early, earlier than most. Yes. I spent part of my childhood in georgia, in the middle part of georgia. I was born in jacksonville, florida, and i think from age probably 3 to 8 was spent in georgia, wadly, georgia, an area considered middle georgia. Not that far from augusta, georgia. And thats where i came of age as a teenager. I came by my activism very early. I always had sort of an innate sense of what was right and what was wrong, and i dont know exactly where i got that from. And the idea of segregation and things that white people could do and black people could not do, i understood very early as maybe as early as 7, 8 years old that there was something wrong with that. Obviously i wasnt capable of any kind of deep philosophical thinking. Its just that why cant we go there and white folks can, and why are we poorer than white people. Those were the things that as a child concerned me. I did have one incident in wattly, georgia, wherein i guess i violated a very sacred and lifeendangering taboo. I put my hands on a white woman. It happened we were in a store with very narrow aisles. And i was coming down the aisle and she was coming up the aisle. It was such that you had to turn sideways to get past each other. So, i veered to the right to go past and she veered to the right. It was that two for two step. Finally she put her hands on my shoulder with a smile. She said you stand here and let me scoot past you. When two of my friends saw that, she were scared out of their wits and they ran out of the store running home and im thinking, what in the world is going on . Have they done something wrong . So im running behind them. And by the time we got back to where we lived, they ran home and told their mother that i had touched a white woman. I still didnt understand what that meant. Well, my mother knew what it meant, and she immediately grabbed me and hugged me and started praying. I still dont understand it, didnt understand what was going on. And about a week later, the clue klux klan paraded through our community and they did that at night. What they would do is turn the light on in their car and theyd sit in their cars and drive through the neighborhood in their robes. I still didnt know what was going on. But later i learned that there have been cases where black boys as old as i am have been killed because they touched a white woman. But once again, i just kind of shrugged my shoulders. I didnt understand why. In florida, you had the colored and white signs, especially at the drinking fountain. And i naively wanted to know what color was the water in the colored fountain. And, of course, i drank from the colored fountains and we had a small bus company in saint augustine, florida. I almost never sat in the back. Saint augustine was unlike any other southern town. Had i done that in birmingham or montgomery, it was a very good possibility i would have been killed. But i had the reputation there of being henry james, and you know henry james a little bit crazy. So, i guess people kind of dismissed my actions that kind of way. But i always knew that this whole thing about segregation and what white folks could do and black folks could not do, i knew it was something wrong with that. It wasnt until many, many years later, i think im in my 40s, when i attended a funeral of a relative of mine. And this was in wattly, georgia. Outside the church was a cemetery and a lady who has since passed who was the oral historian for our family, took me to the cemetery and had me to walk among the tombstone. And im reading the names of people who had died many years ago. And she brought me to a tombstone which said, tobiatha washington, born 1827, died 1907. And she told me the story of this lady. This lady was the most whipped slave in all of that particular county. And what happened to her, as was related to me was, one day she was working in the field. A tall lady for her for those times. She may have been 56 tall. The owner of the farm where they were slaves sent for her to come into the house. It seems that everybody knew what that meant. That meant she was going to be eventually raped by the owner of the farm. After she was working there for maybe a few weeks, he attempted to rape her. She fought him off. That in itself was a capital offense. She was taken out to the middle of the yard, tied to the whipping post and whipped so badly that she was not able to go back to work in the fields for maybe a couple of weeks or so. Once she healed, went to the fields, after a matter of weeks she was sent for again. Again she went to the house, and in a period of time he attempted to rape her again. Again she fought him off. And again she was whipped severely. A third time after all of the healing process, when she was sent for, she went to the whipping post and tied herself to the whipping post. And when the women of the field saw that, they all came from the field and surrounded her. And, of course, she was not whipped. And so as i was standing there and my cousin said, introduce yourself. I said, introduce myself . Yes, introduce yourself. I says, maam, my name is henry james thomas. And then she said, tobiatha, this is your great, great, great, great grandson henry james. Well, i lost it. I fell down on my knees and i was crying. And then i said to her, i am so sorry i was not there to protect you. And she my cousin looked at me and said, you see . And of course, she asked me how many times i had been arrested. I said 22 times. She said them white folks been whipping you, too, but you didnt give up your manhood, did you . And i said, no. She said, she didnt give up her woman hood, and thats when i learned something about the other side of my family and probably at least once a year wattly is about three hours drive from atlanta. I go to her grave and i talk to her. Was she on your mothers side or your shes on my fathers side. So, thats where i get my rebellion from. Did your mother and father talk to you about these things at all . No. No, they never did. And blacks did not talk to their children about slavery. You can tell me if im right or wrong. I dont think many Holocaust Survivors talk to their children. It was a matter of shame and it was a matter of revisiting something that was just awful. And so ive never when i talk to my mother about that particular story, she was just silent. No doubt she had heard about it. The complete irony is that particular farm where my family was held as slaves is now owned by one of my Family Members. The one who, the historian who died early last year, but she owned that particular and we would have on my fathers side some of our family reunions there. She would constantly try to get me to spend the night in that house and i just told her, im sorry, i cant do that. But the irony is that they the Family Member owned that because obviously over the years, whoever owned it from the whiteside fell into some had some Financial Difficulties and had to either sell it or be sold for taxes. So, when did you graduate from high school . 59. And did you go to college . Howard university. And thats where i got started in an organized fashion in the Civil Rights Movement in 1960. So, what was going on at the school . Was this was this something that i mean, that you found yourself in an environment which was supporting ideas that you had that you felt i would imagine you were chomping at the bit. Absolutely. Thats the way to describe it. September 1st, when the four students from North Carolina a t sat down at the lunch counter and they came on the 6 00 news that this had happened, i remember sitting in, we had what was called there was only one room in the dorm where there was a tv. Rest of us couldnt afford television. It was down in the basement, what we call the day room or the activity room, and im watching this. I dont know what particular channel, network, cbs, nbc. I remember they were talking about what these students said and i remember jumping up and saying, yeah, we have to dot same thing. City of d. C. Had accommodations law. To the south was virginia segregation. To the north and to the east is maryland segregation. So, while we could go to any restaurant in d. C. , but just a few minutes away we could not. So, we got started and i helped organize the first chapter of the Nonviolent Action Group which we call n. A. G. And every weekend we would either go over into virginia or maryland to do sitins and i think sometime that year in march i was first arrested in hyattsville, maryland. And protesting racism at a it was a movie theater. Uhhuh. So, it was, like you said, i was chomping at the bit. This was tailormade for me. You got involved in snick fairly early. Yes. How did that happen . We had the second Howard University had the second largest student protest group, Tennessee State had by far the largest. All during the month of february, march and up to april, all a lot of the college, historically black colleges throughout the south were having some form of demonstration and sitins. Ella baker who at that time was a member of scls, southern christian leadership conference, came up with the idea that all of the students who were involved and need to be some coordinated effort. So, she organized this for students to come to shoal university in raleigh, North Carolina. And we did. For that weekend we met students from Tennessee State, Fisk University, more house, spell man. All of us came together and thats when miss baker said we should form our own organization. So, the various organizations that they had at these campuses, we decided to form one group and it was called the student nonviolent coordinating committee, in other words the acronym for sncc. Thats how we got started. We kind of folded our organization into that one organization and thats how we became sncc. That was when you were a freshman . Yes. And did you i was just curious about the academic side of your college years. Did you have an intention to major in something in particular . Did you have any ambition . I left home with the idea of becoming a doctor. My lady who lived across the street, lady who also had a little private school we called her mama joshua. She thought i was a pretty smart kid because i memorized the books. Bible quicker than any other kid. And to this day i can still recite a few of them. Everything was done in the form of singing. Like genesis, exodus, le vit cuss i did that much quicker than anyone else. She thought i was smarter than anyone else. She said, you need to go to school and become a doctor so you can take care of me and my sister. I left Howard University with the idea of becoming a doctor. The first time i was arrested and i was in jail, the heck with being a doctor. Im going to be a lawyer because i got to fight this injustice. [ laughter ] and so that was the idea, and i was never a real stellar academic scholar in the classroom. I had to work harder than anyone else just to get a c out of a class. But thats when i got thoroughly involved. And i guess you can say i realized what my calling was. So, when did you first hear about the freedom rides . 1961, because we got started in may of 61. I think i got the flyer or the news about it from core probably in march. They were looking for someone at least 21 years of age or older and, of course, i was only 19. So, my roommate, john moody, who had been a had spent ten years in the air force when he came to howard, so he was ten years older than myself. And he had also volunteered and he was selected because obviously he was over 21. And i think two days before we were supposed to report to a friends Retreat Center there in northern virginia, he got sick and he could not go. And then he said to me, well, why dont you just go . I was always big for my age and people always thought i was older than i appeared, so i showed up and told them the story. And i did not tell them how old i was, however. So, i filled out the form and the part where it says age and date of birth, i left blank. So, i was accepted. It was an oversight on somebodys part. I was accepted and wasnt until two days into the training that somebody asked me again how old was i because i forgot and left it. I said 19. They went, oh, my gosh. So, but it was too late then. So, im 19 but i act 30. And thats how i got selected and remained selected for the freedom ride. So, how long was the training and what was the training . I think im a little bit confused. I thought it was at least two weeks, and i since learned it was probably only a week that we were training. And in that section of northern virginia, even though it was said to be more liberal than the rest of the country, still people were not ready for blacks and whites to be meeting under the same roof and certainly sleeping under the same roof. We had some trouble with the local authorities when they found out what we were doing. Fire inspectors got there. Found all kinds of violations. Police started checking license plates and giving speeding tickets on people coming and going. So, in other words, we got properly harassed by the authorities. But that was that was only about three days prior to our completion of the training. So, we did and none of us got arrested there in northern virginia. How many were training . Was it enough for the first couple of rides or yeah, we had a total of 13 people training. Six whites and seven blacks. And i think i have forgotten i think may 4 is when we left washington, d. C. That particular building, the bus station at new york and seventh avenue, is still there in d. C. And our first stop was richmond, virginia. You must have been excited and scared excited but not scared. I had no idea what i was getting into what we were getting into. Besides, im 19, and at 19 you thrive on either the perception of danger, okay. Youre used to breaking the rules and all of that. So, i had no idea. And especially in richmond, virginia, nothing happened. The people there acted decent. The fbi, of course, knew everything that we were doing. I have since learned of the kinds of dirty tricks that j. Edgar hoover tried to play on us and succeeded in some instance. The next stop was charlotte, North Carolina. Once again, no problems for the time that we were there, at least. The bus stations were integrated and we had no problems. It was when we left charlotte heading into South Carolina, rock hill, South Carolina was the first incidence of violence. John lewis was beaten pretty badly in rock hill, and i was on a bus that was stopped in win spur owe, South Carolina. Jim peck was beaten pretty badly when he got off the bus. I wasnt physically attacked, the Police Arrested me. In the night they took me out to a klan mob. The deal was they did not book me into the station, into theres nothing on the records indicated that i had ever been arrested because the idea was to deliver me to the klan and the klan would kill me. And the police can say we never heard of him, we never arrested him, we have no record of him ever being in rock hill. I was rescued by a black man who had watched the police and who had been assigned by core to if anybody is arrested to report back to core and this type of thing. And he had been watching the police. And when i was ordered out of the police car at gunpoint and i had to run from the mob and he drove up beside me as i was running to tell me to jump in the car, in the back seat, and get down on the floor. And thats how i. Escaped from winsboro, South Carolina. Do you know that man . I dont know his name. I tried all of these years, and im pretty sure hes passed. The city of winsboro is inviting me back. Let by gones be by gones, right, guys . The police chief now is an africanamerican. And so he and the mayor are having a welcome back hank thomas after 54 years. And that will take place probably sometime next month or in april. And thats it. Thats amazing. So, the ride continued it continued. I caught up with the group in atlanta, georgia. And we were warned and advised by dr. King and his folks, you need to stop this ride because youre going into alabama and its a hot bed of klan activity and somebody is liable to get killed. Well, because i was missing for a period of 24 hours, they thought for sure that i had been killed because when they called rock hill to inquire about my whereabouts, the police said we dont know what youre talking about. And that was a very good indication there that they have done something to him. So, when i showed up again and there was great rejoicing that, you know, i didnt think was such a big deal after i. Escape, you know. They were happy to see me. Obviously they had to do some thinking. Should we continue with this ride. And of course my answer was, of course were going to continue. So, we went on into aniston. When we got into the city limits of aniston, the streets were deserted and we turned the corner of the street leading to the bus station and there was the mob gathered at the bus station. And when the bus pulled in, they were yelling and screaming and that the bus driver had brought them the freedom riders and now they were going to take over. They started breaking out the windows and the bus driver had gratuitously for us locked the door as he a scaped from the bus so they couldnt get into the door. And after awhile of beating on the bus and rocking it, Robert Kennedy, ive since learned, had contacted governor patterson and the president of greyhound, that the freedom riders were trapped in aniston, alabama and its only going to be a matter of time before the mob is going to kill them. And so youve got to get them out of there. And so a bus driver got on the bus and tried to drive away. There was a line of cars behind him and cars in front of them that wouldnt let the bus drive any more 15 miles an hour. The tire had been punctured, two of the tires had been cut, and it takes a great deal of whatever it is you have to cut the tire of a bus, big bus. The bus stopped at a Country Store along the highway. Another mob was there. And they continued the job of beating on the bus and they had their children and their wives with them. They had come to see the freedom riders get lynched. A cindiery was thrown through the window. They held the door shut as the bus was burning. They were saying lets burn these northern alive. Lets burn them alive. The flames reached the fuel tank in the bus and it blew out the back of the bus. And everybody on the outside scattered and thats the only way we were able to get off that bus. And then the mob followed us to the hospital. After the attorney general pleaded with attorney patterson to provide Police Escort to take us to the hospital. They came to the hospital, asking the hospital to put us out. And when the hospital they didnt have to refuse because we were not going to leave that hospital. They threatened to burn the hospital down. And finally governor patterson agreed that fred and three other men could drive cars i think it was three, may have been four to aniston, alabama to rescue us. And thats how we got out of aniston, alabama. I read that that rescue was an armed rescue. Do you remember that . I know fred sholsworth said he told his people not to bring arms. I remember a couple people saying to hell with that. They brought their guns. If we had been stopped by any of those mobs, they had to do something to protect us. But we also found out and i had a chance to talk with john patterson, then governor, hes still alive and i think hes 93 years old. He had lunch with us and he asked for forgiveness, said that they were wrong, and asked to pose for a picture with me. Asked me if i if he could take a picture with me. And i have that picture at my house with him and my daughter. And so he said he was sorry and he apologized. He was wrong. And as you probably know, George Wallace before he died, went to a black church and asked for forgiveness. But thats how we got out of aniston. But some of those men said they had they had weapons, okay. So, were you injured during this process . Other than yeah, i was of course, we all suffered from smoke inhalation. Once you get that kind of smoke in your lungs, it takes sometime, a few days for it to get out. And that is a horrible feeling. I was hit by i think a fellow with a baseball bat as i came stumbling off of the bus. He asked me and said, boy, are you all right . And im thinking, well, somebody is concerned, and next thing i know i was on the ground because he hit me on the side of the head. And there is a picture of two one Police Officer and a Alabama State trooper standing beside me as im on the ground. But they did absolutely nothing to protect us. So, but thats the only injury i had. And that was john lewis, he was hurt a few days earlier, right . Yes. Was he with you . Did they patch him up and he came a no, he was physically in no shape to continue. He later joined the group in montgomery prior to us going on into mississippi, but he had to have a few days to recover. So, the ride did continue oh, yes. So how did it what was next when you went the students from Fisk University and Tennessee State heard that we could no longer continue the ride. Immediately, they took up the cause and started the ride again, a group of them from Tennessee State, from nashville decided to come to montgomery. And they got the crap beat out of them as well. And one of them was came pretty most to being killed when the mob just attacked them. The Montgomery Police told the ku klux klan that when the freedom riders come to town, you have 15 minutes to do what you want to do. And after that well have to move in and those 15 minutes they almost killed some of the freedom riders. Luckily for us, john sekenthal who was a direct representative of Robert Kennedy was beaten and knocked out. And when Robert Kennedy heard that if nothing else moved him to act, thats when he got on the phone again and told the governor of alabama that president kennedy is going to nationalize the National Guard if they didnt do something. And it was only then that they decided to do something. But years later in reunion meetings with john segenthal, we all went up to him and hugged him for sacrificing his head for the cause because if he had not been knocked out and the newspaper photographs clearly showing him sprawled on the sidewalk, said, you are the cause of us getting rescued, and we appreciate it. So, this is may. You were supposed to be in school during this time . Yeah. So, did you go back to school eventually, yeah. After i went back to school, the freedom riders the freedom rides ended. I went back to school in 62. Thats when the army came looking for me. Okay. So, tell me about that, the army come looking for you. At that time the army, the draft boards were using their powers to punish people who had been involved in civil rights, and the way they did that was to draft you into the army because chances are if you were from piedmont, alabama and you were in school in nashville, there is a good possibility you didnt notify the draft board that you were now living in nashville. And the law stated or the regulation was within 90 days after you leave a particular jurisdiction, you are to notify your draft board. Well, there were a few very few. If you didnt notify your draft board, you were immediately subject to be called up or drafted or inducted into the army. So, in washington, when i got my notice, i knew what that meant. And so i was thinking and i was told, well, if you go and present yourself to the local recruiter, you then are no longer in violation. And at least you have an opportunity to select what occupation you wanted in the army. But you were going to be in the army. And so i didnt necessarily want to go into combat, and so i said i would like to become a medic. And i thought that being a medic meant that i was going to be working in a hospital. And little did i know, being the infantry needs medics on the battle field. Thats when i found out the hard way that i was going to be where the action was. So, you say you went back to school in 62, and the draft board contacted you. And then after the school year they started to yeah, after the school i finished that school year. So 63 it is. In 63 i presented myself for the draft and was inducted into the army in october 63. And, so, theres only those 16,000 advisors in vietnam in 63. Yeah, they kept increasing each month. And so 63, im at fort jackson. And after fort jackson i went to Fort Sam Houston in san antonio for my medical training. And for my medical training i knew that you can make an extra 55 a month. I was already married, so that 55 extra a month was a huge amount of money. So, i volunteered for the airborne. And i became an airborne soldier, and getting an extra 55 a month plus the chance at faster promotion, which meant another extra maybe 30 a month, which was a lot of money for me at that time. And i was then sent to fort benning for my Airborne Training and it was at fort benning that the new air calvavalry unit was formed. They call it the air mobile unit and this concept of using helicopters as vehicles instead of trucks and things of this nature. And so i went to vietnam in september of 65 with the air cavalry unit. And we arrived in vietnam the end of september. And by the middle of november i was in battle. So, i want to back up a little bit. Okay. Im wondering how you felt about this, because this is the moment when the Civil Rights Movement is grabbing the country and you have to go off and do this oh, i was conflicted. No doubt about it. What do i do . My grandfather served in world war i. My father served in world war ii. Always for a black man, whenever you served, it was your military service you hope would confirm your bona fides as a first class red blooded american citizen in title, too. Even though you knew that was not the case of the 10th of a cavalry, the Buffalo Soldiers that was not the case. Of the black soldiers who served in the civil war. At 1. 15 of tone point, 15 of soldiers were black. We thought this would be a title. Almost like the green fees for becoming a citizen. Naively, i felt the same way. You wanted an opportunity to prove that you are truly an american. And so that kind of inner conflict i had when i went to vietnam, and there was more than once in vietnam, im thinking, what am i doing here, when im reading about all of the stuff thats going on back home. But for me and the other vietnam vets, black vietnam vets, the country was changing, and it did change. And while we still had some problems there in vietnam and black soldiers who came back 65, 66, 67 had lots of problems, but they were nowhere near the intensity of ill treatment that world war ii black vets suffered when they came back. So, where were you deployed in vietnam . I was in the central highlands. And we landed at a city called quin yan and traveled over land to enke in the central highlands. November of that year was the year that the first large American Unit had contact with the north vietnamese unit and what was called the battle of the adrian valley. Book written about it and a movie. Somebody asked me did i see mel gibson over there. I said, no, im afraid i didnt. Didnt get a chance to see mel gibson. I understand he won that war for us, though. But i was at the tail end of that battle. By this time i was in the army what is called a senior medic, and i had four other medics serving under me. Two of them three of them were killed. Two of them were killed on the same day in that particular battle. And that was one of those days i heard about them being killed at what is called Headquarters Company. The two that were killed were both 18yearold white boys. And i emphasize the fact that they were white because for the first time in my life and im pretty sure the first time for other black soldiers they had a chance to interact with whites. And on an equal level and not a subservient level. These young white boys i was 22 at the time, so for them i was an old guy. And they looked at me as being their protector. I dont know why, but maybe because of my age and everything, and never had any problems with them, you know, following my directions and everything. So, when i found out that they had been killed in that particular battle, that was a pretty difficult day for me. So, how did you feel about the war in particular . I understand the idea of service was you had a hope that that would be meaningful, but what did you think about the war in general . You didnt think that much about the politics of the war. You were concerned about staying alive. And especially if you were in, shall we say, a front line combat unit where youre going out on patrols and people around you are getting killed. You think about staying alive and the politics of it, and the fact that you were there. There were a few times when i kept saying, what am i doing here . What am i doing here . How am i going to be received when i get back home . Are things really going to be changed when i get back home . I had my problems with white in vietnam, a lot of blacks did, because you had these white southerners who came in with these particulate tudr attitude especially the noncoms and the officers who were in charge. My captain threatened to have me Court Martialed a couple times while i was over there. He was from mississippi and he brought his own particular prejudices into the company. And there were some Serious Problems in vietnam, especially at the tent. The racial problems in vietnam, especially in your rear guard, rear echelon unit threatened to tear the army apart and really ruined its effectiveness. There were a couple times and i think this is in the early 70s where junior officers, first luitieutenants or even captains would not take their men out on patrol. I remember cbs interviewing one lieutenant who had refused i dont know whether that was the end of his army career or not, but refused to take his unit out on patrol. He disobeyed a direct order and he simply told the reporter, when we go out and the shooting starts, i dont know who is going to be shooting at whom. Thats how bad the racial situation had gotten there. You had some whites who came in, didnt realize that when you used the n word toward a black, that you could have some Serious Problems. And some of them did that. So, the army saw that it had a problem that it had to do something. And indeed they did. And what they found out was i think only about 2 of the officers in vietnam were africanamerican. During the first part of that war, lets say 65, 66, 25 to 26 of the k. I. A. S were African Americans. And that became a problem. And the word canon fodder of the African Americans being used as canon fodder. Ill tell you that wasnt the situation. What it was was African Americans generally preferred and went to the combat arms. That was where you got your the rank because all rank came down first to the combat arm. So, you had a chance of making rank pretty fast. You did it there. And second, those were the elite units of the army at that time. And, yes, a lot of us were gung ho. We were predominant in the airborne unit. And then the other reason was we wanted the chance to prove that we were good, examiand that we fight for our country and we did. The downside of it was when it was time to give out the medals, thats when i began to get into trouble. Blacks were not getting the medals. And that was one of the issues with my captain when i im only an e4 now. And im confronting as diplomatically as i could, a captain as to why there were no blacks getting medals and all of the medals were given to the whites. And i guess my tone accused him. And so i had asked some black ncos were arent blacks getting medals. We recommended this particular person for a bronze star, we recommended this guy for a silver star, and nothing ever became of it. So, that was the basis of my confrontation with the captain and, of course, i requested his permission to go to the i. G. , and once again, you just dont do that because you are saying that you have no faith in his particular leadership. So, thats when i began to have my problems. Another incident that happened was some of the white soldiers had sent home and asked their relatives to send them Confederate Flags. And one day in our company headquarters, the Confederate Flag was hoisted instead of old glory. And when some of the black soldiers because i had gotten a reputation as being the guy who didnt give a dam and i would confront the authority, told me what had happened, and i went out there and saw this rebel flag hanging up there, i got my m16, i got about three or four magazines because i wasnt very good as a boxer. I put that sucker on automatic and i fired that magazine. Didnt bring it down. Shoot up the top of the flag pole and everybody started running at the same time wondering what the heck is going on. And i emptied that magazine, put in another one. And finally that flag came down. I walked calmly back to my tent. And, of course, obviously the captain sent for me. I got my m16, shouldered it, went to see the captain. And he told me not to do it again. Okay, all right. So, but i became a hero to the black soldiers. And there were a few other incidents that we had to contend with as well. Was that the captain from mississippi . Yeah. And he only told you not to do it again . I dont think he wanted to tell me anything else at that particular moment, okay. So lets just put it that way, all right. So, i was going to ask you how did you cope with your rebellious streak while you were in the military. But you clearly had plenty of avenues for expressing it. I wanted to stay in the military. I really did. I had qualified to go to aviation school, and the idea of becoming a helicopter pilot, you know, you get a warrant. You would become a warrant officer. And i really thought when i looked at what my possibilities of employment outside of the military, given my history and everything, staying in the military was very attractive idea. The problem was my captain was no way going to recommend me for going to aviation school. The supply sergeant i dont know if they still are today why notorious for being skroungers. And they were criminal. Lets put it as supply sergeants were criminals. And they could do all kinds of things and so as with a lot of initial equipment in the army, it was hit and miss. Some of it was not suitable. And one of the problems we had was with the boots. They would wear out prematurely as a result of that high humidity and everything. And so they had to experiment with getting a boot that would last. So, everybodys boots were wearing out. And then the army sent in the new boots. Well, they would obviously come to Headquarters Company first and your job was to ship them out to the other company. Well, all of the black in our company were not getting the boots. The white soldiers were. This is outrageous. So, the black soldiers came to me and said, sergeant cherry is giving boots to the white guys and hes not giving them to us. Thats all you needed to say. Crazy as hank thomas made a bee line to the sergeant, called out sergeant cherry, i understand blacks are not getting any boots. And once again, im an e4 and hes an e6 and im not supposed to be talking to him the way i was. And he just told me, at ease, soldier. Which means, you better realize who you are. And he said, you know, you need to mind your own business. I said, do you have any new boots back there . Before he could answer, i went behind the counter, tore open the knocked the lock off the locker and line of blacks were already behind me anyway. I came out and said what size do you wear . And the sergeant is standing there. You cant do that. And im handing out boots to the blacks. He makes a bline to the captain again. So, once again, this time the captain did tell me we were slated to go out on another patrol on another big operation the next day and he told me, i want to see you when you come back, if you can back. I thought, what do you mean if i come back . Well, so my days of remaining in the army i knew hed be happy when i leave and maybe all of the reports he wrote up on me. But to my surprise, when i got my discharge papers, what is it, my dd form 214, none of those particular things were on there that he had threatened me with. So, maybe he was glad to say good riddance to me and that was it. So, can you tell us about how you were injured . We went out to set up an ambush. I had always thought, its not a good idea to try to sneak up on the enemy because all of these times before had not worked out very well. Maybe we need to let them know that were coming and theyll just say, its not worth it and go someplace else. But we were going to set up this ambush. Got up very early in the morning. Heres what i want you to think about. How can you sneak up on anybody with 25 helicopters . But we thought we thought that we were going to get there about 7 00 or 8 00 about 7 00 in the morning and set up an ambush along a welltraveled vietnam trail, if you will. By the time we got there, got set up, all hell broke loose. They were already there just waiting for us. And i dont know why they didnt shoot down the choppers. They waited for the choppers to leave and they let loose. The whole thing probably lasted maybe five, six minutes, but to me it seemed like forever. When it was over, i think three of our guys were killed, about four or five were wounded including myself. And i remember being knocked down. I knew i had been shot. And the old saying goes is if you can feel something, that means youre still alive. And i know ive been shot so im trying to figure out where im shot. And this particular hand had been knocked behind me and when i was able to remove my hand from me, it was uncontrollable. I could not keep it from shaking, and bones were sticking up through my hand. And they said the first thing i said is, oh, hell, im going home now because if you had that kind of wound that would require extensive surgery and orthopedic type surgery, that would send you home. And then i also had been hit in the chest as well. That particular wound was not as grieve grieveous. I had a superstition. I was the most heavily armed medic in vietnam. My superstition was if i load myself down in addition to my medical supplies with a 45 that was the standard weapon. I had an m16, and then i had the grenade launcher. And people would ask me, what youre a medic. I said, if i carry all this stuff, ill never have to use it, okay . Ill never be in a situation where i have to use it. So, one of the bullets i think one of the i carried about 200 rounds of ammunition. And one of them i think must have hit glanced off of one of the magazines and it didnt go go that far into my chest. That was one of the things that saved me. When i got ready to treat a soldier, unarm first. Come on, doc, help me out. Wait, let me get rid of [ laughter ] that was my superstition. So, when was the injury . It was i got injured and, of course, everybody came running around me. And ill never forget the movie Hamburger Hill and the medic. I had a chance to meet Courtney Vance sometime later who played that role. I told him later. I said, did you realize you were me . He was that same kind of soldier. I said, where did you get hit . We kind of laughed and reminisced about that. The only deal was like the soldiers gathered all around you when you were injured, they did the same thing with me. And im telling them to get away from me because all youre going to do is get me shot again. When the medic is hit, it has a psychological effect. Doc has been hit, doc has been hit. I remember this old sergeant robinson, big, burly black guy. They came to me and looked. He said, doc, youve been hit. I dont know if youre going to live or not. Thanks a lot. [ laughter ] of course the chopper came down and we were kind of up in a mountainous area in the morning. The air was very thin. They loaded six of us on the chopper. And the chopper had trouble getting altitude. And im laying across this hughy. My feet out one end and my head is out the other end. And the chopper is struggling, struggling. I just said, lord, theres a mva with a beat on me and that bullet is going to hit my head at any minute. They tried one time. It came back down. Tried again and they finally got out of there and got me to the hospital. So, i think from the time i was shot, within 45 minutes i was on the operating table in the hospital. The next morning the doctor came who had operated on me and showed me the bullet that he had taken out of me, and so i wanted the bullet. He said, oh, no, im putting this on my office. He was from texas. And so people will understand. He said, this is my trophy. So, i underwent one operation in vietnam and two more operations in walter reed. So, you had mentioned that you were married. Uhhuh. When you went to vietnam. That is true, yeah. So when you came back from vietnam after you were injured, you came back to where . I tried to go back to school at Howard University, but i had some, some things i had to take care with reference to my family. My oldest sister came to live with me in d. C. She had been the subject of some abuse by my stepfather which was her father. And so she came to live with me. And i had this thing about i had a family that i had now to take care of, so and i couldnt do that by working a parttime job. So, i dropped out of school with the idea of maybe coming back a little bit later on. I did not have a lot of the postcombat stress that some of the Vietnam Veterans had. I think mine was delayed, if you will. I did see some things in vietnam that even today when i think about them, i try to talk about them. I get a little emotional. The number of civilians i saw who were killed. Civilians in any war, any modern war, always get caught in the middle of the soldiers whether its the north vietnamese soldiers, whether it was the south vietnamese soldiers, whether it was us, civilians get caught in the middle. Accidental fire or artillery shell falling in the wrong village. All of these, they kill people. They kill children. And so as a medic i saw other soldiers saw it, too, but as a medic, i saw some of this. And it was, even today many, many years after, there were things that i saw that still haunt me in terms of the civilians who were killed. And there are times now when my wife has to wake me up when im having nightmares. And there were a couple of times when i got really, really scared because i woke up hitting her because i was dreaming that we had a problem with that m16 rifle when we first went over and we were told, you dont put it on automatic fire because it will jamb, and it did jamb. So, to me any time i had these nightmares, there are four or five north county north vietnamese soldiers coming at me and i make the mistake of putting the gun on automatic fire and the gun jambs. Now i have to run or use the gun as a club to fight off the soldiers, and one night i was hitting my wife. And that just scared the devil out of me. And it has happened a couple of nights before, so she knows that any time that im moving or im shaken, she wi shaking she will wake me up. It is not as frequent, but those were the things that kind of bother me. And also the fact that im treating somebody and im running out of bandages and i cant stop the bleeding. Those are the recurring nightmares that i have as well. When i first went to the wall, after seeing soldiers get to the wall and mentally, emotionally break down, thats not going to happen to me. So, i didnt go to the wall probably until about five years after it was there. And surely enough when i got there and you see the names of those three medics of mine who were killed and one who was very, very close to me, alfred jackson, and its something about seeing those names, putting your hand on it and taking that piece of paper, that graphite that they give you, it gets to you, you know. Youve seen many war memorials, but not that many with the names there. Because then you, you know, you call out that persons name and you look for the name of your buddy when you go to that wall. And so that still gets to me sometimes. So, your sister your stepsister, i guess, came to visit with you and your wife. Did you have children . We have a total of two grown children and a total of five grands and well, lets say four grands and one great grand. And my sister, of course, sons married and has grandchildren of her own and she has a daughter who was in the marines, did two tours in vietnam and has since retired from the marine corps. My family is a military family. And even today we have several members who are still in the military and who have retired and this type of thing. So, we went through that period, but i never did go back to school. And then got started in business when i moved to atlanta. And for my mother, she always wanted me to be a school teacher. And so from ive had a good life. Im living the American Dream and the american story. I first started off with operating a dairy queen restaurant and from a dairy queen restaurant i bought a burger king restaurant. And from a burger king i bought my first mcdonalds in 1982. And before i retired i wound up owning a total of nine Mcdonalds Restaurants and four marriott hotels. So, life has been good for me. And im, shall we say, living the american story and the American Dream. So, did you when you came back from vietnam, were you did you rejoin the movement . On a different level. Im in business now and i have a family, so i do things differently. I was a member of sclc but as far as going out on demonstrations and going to jail, no, i didnt do that. I would tell some of my colleagues when we get together and some of them kind of razz me a little bit, hank is going over to the enemy. Hes going into business. Hes become a capitalist. I said, im still a revolutionary because the idea of a black man being in business is a revolutionary idea. So, im still fighting the fight. And became successful in business. And the thing that my wife and i have done, we give back, providing scholarships and supporting worthy cause. And i used to say to folks and say some of my business colleagues, when i was growing up, any time we needed something in the black community that was for the good of the community, we had to go to white folks for it. We had to go to the man. And i reminded them, those who were in business doing well, i said, we are the man now. I am the man. So, i want black kids, when they need scholarships, when the schools need somebody to step up to the plate to finance various things, thats one of the things that i do, and very, very proud of it. So, could you mind talking about your stepfather when you were growing up . No, i dont mind. Could you tell us a little . He was an individual he never learned to read or right, but he could faix practically anything. He could wire a house. He could fix a car. I used to say had he gone to school, he could have been a mechanical engineer, electrical engineer. In this little town of wadly, georgia, there was a sawmill there. He kept all that machinery going. Any time the machinery broke down, l. G. Was the man who would fix it. Of course they wouldnt call him a man at the time. He was the boy who would fix it. One of the reasons they always got him out of jail on saturday night so he could be at work on monday morning, never mind that hes drank up all of his earnings and we maybe not have any food in the house. But they got him to work so that he can fix whatever went wrong and this type of thing. He used to say things like when he got drunk, id rather die and go to hell than be treated the way i was treated. I had no idea what he was talking about. And none of us knew what he was talking about. But as i learned later and understood what black men went through, he was talking about the way he was being treated. Here he was a very intelligent man in terms of his skills, and he was probably being paid just enough to keep his family from starving, so what did he do . He drank. And even though the county we lived in was a dry county, the sheriff owned all of the shot houses and the shot houses was where the liquor was sold, the homemade moon shishine and what. So he was never treated like a man. So, what he did was and you take that hurt that you feel and you transfer it to the people who are closest to you. So, here was a black man who didnt know how to show love to his family. He only knew the way he had been treated. So many, many years later, while i could not forgive him for what he had done to me and to his family, years later i understood. And the one regret that i had, i said that i never got the chance to tell him that i forgave him. I didnt forget, but i forgave him for what he did to me and to my mother and the rest of his family, because i knew what he was going through. Nowadays in a court of law, they would say he was temporarily insane, and he was, for the way that he had been treated. This is what happened to so many black men. And when you understood what happened, both during slavery and during the jim crow era, it is an absolute wonder that every black man wasnt crazy because of the way they were treated and the families suffered. So, how did your mother deal with it . In a stoic way, the way all black women dealt with it. She thought that it was gods will. Didnt like it, but it was gods way of punishing her, and that eventual eventually my mother is a very, very religious woman to this day. Always her conversation with me is, are you going to church . She knows im not. So, rather than to lie to her, maybe next week, mama, next week. But thats the way she dealt with it. She just said that it was the lords will and thats the way she still feels about it today. So, i understand you started working at a have i young age. Is that true . Yeah. What was your first job . Picking cotton. I think i must have been either 7 or 8. My mother made the cotton sack for me. In that area of the country, blacks did not go to school generally until november, and thats after all of the crops were in. White kids went to school late august, september. But we had to get the crops in. And it was cotton in that portion of georgia. Some other area it was potatoes or it was picking beans. But education took a back seat to what the farmers needed at that particular time. So, i didnt go. And of course all of the money i made, which may have been a dollar, dollar and a quarter a day, i brought it home and put it on the table and that was the money that was used to buy groceries, especially when l. G. Had drank up all of the money. So, i do have one more question. Sure. So, reading your biography as a young man one thing emerges. , which is that did the discipline that you learned during the freedom rides help prepare you for what was needed in the army and in combat . I dont necessarily think so. One of the things i am grateful for, i always had a sense of what was right and what was wrong at a very early age. I always knew where i was in my life as a kid living in poverty. That was not where i was supposed to be and that was not where i was going to be. And i knew that education was the key. My mother taught me that. I learned how to read before i went to school. She only had a sixgrade education, but i was reading by the time that i was 4. So, i had this inner sense of discipline that i now attribute to the genes that i inherited from tobiatha washington. This woman, right after slavery and the emancipation proclamation, with two or three other people, organized a church of the freed slaves. And the grounds that that church, modernday church sits today is the original plot of ground that they bought. And this woman had this kind of discipline and sense of knowing what things are supposed to be, so i just credited that to the genes that i received from her. Thank you very much. Youre very welcome. Coming up next on American History tv in prime time, oral histories about the vietnam war. We hear from veterans and their spouses, including katherine westmoreland, widow of general William Westmoreland, who commanded the u. S. Forces in vietnam from 1964 to 68. Then kenneth carlson, a combat veteran who grew up in a military family and later taught at a military academy. And later, henry hank thomas, a combat medic, civil rights activist and one of the 13 founding freedom riders. Katherine westmoreland, wife of u. S. Army general William Westmoreland who commanded u. S. Forces in vietnam talked about her life as a military daughter, sister and spouse. She recounted her time living in vietnam and serving as a red cross