Abraham lincoln bicentennial commission. Thank you for joining us today. Unlike that of winston churchill, Abraham Lincolns humor tended towards selfdepreciation. During one of the Lincoln Douglass debates in illinois, a spectator shouted lincoln was being two faced. Two faced, shouted lincoln. If i had two faces, do you think i would wear this one . Lincolns humor was an essential component of his personality and political persona. Richard carwardine will explore with us whether his humor might also occasionally have been a handicap. Richard carwardine was educated at Corpus Christi and queens colleges oxford and at the university of california at berkeley. For three decades, he taught history at the university of sheffield before being appointed rhodes professor of American History and institutions at Oxford University and a fellow of st. Catherines college. He was elected president of Corpus ChristiCollege Oxford in 2010. And served in that post until 2016. He is the author of one of the finest modern biographies of the 16th president , lincoln, a life of purpose and power which was awarded the lincoln prize in 2007, and lincolns sense of hum humor, a doubleedged sword, on which todays lecture is based. Ladies and gentlemen, professor richard carwardine. Good morning, fellow lincolnians. Im going to begin with a well known story familiar to some ofv you, i have no doubt. The occasion was an evening ary. Banquet in wintry illinois. Was the month was february. The year, 1856. Edito the setting was a convention ofa republican newspaperm editors,o the decatur. B Abraham Lincoln was there, and he spoke. He apologized for being an interloper, as he put it. And cast himself as the subject of a story about a man, and i quote, with features the ladiess could not call h handsome. Riding through the woods, he met a lady on horseback. He waited for her to pass. But instead, she stopped and scrutinized him before saying, well, for lambs sake, youre i the homeliest man i ever saw. Yes, madam, but i cant help itp he replied. E no, i suppose not, said the ter] lady. But you might stay at home. Well, once the editors had stopped laughing, lincoln said p he felt with propriety, he might have stayed at home. Well, the story is i chose it because its particularly apt. I was scheduled to speak here last year at the symposium, but when it came to it, i stayed ati home. And now i may possibly be the ugliest man you have ever seen, though i certainly hope not. But that wasnt why i stayed away. I simply wasnt well enough to travel. E so im especially grateful to president john white and the executive committee of the i wat Abraham Lincoln t Institute Fora extending the invitation a second time. And i want particularly to thank michael burlinggame who stepped in to fill the gap a year ago. So now, while i was working on my book on lincolns humor, i was aware of those who questioned my choice of subject so seemingly lacking in gravitas and so marginal to the big issues of s lincolns time. I believe, however,when b peoplu as muchs. If not more revealing about themselves when being funny than when theyre serious. It was plato who reflected, gra serious things cannot be grasped without ridiculous ones. And no one indulged in humor more than lincoln. It was as characteristic of him as his stovepipe hat, but unlike his hat, it was an intrinsic element of the man, a way of ite life, a habit of mind. Y and it expressed his essential ing f humanity, his sense of proportion, his understanding of human foibles. What prompted my research and my inquiry was a remark lincoln made to david ross locke. Locke was a young ohio newspaper man and merciless satirest of the peace democrats, the copper heads. Lockes satire centered on a copperhead grotesque. A a pastor of a proslavery edy church, he was a drunken, greedy, sordid, lying racist. Locke called him a Nickel Plated son of a bitch. The v stood for vesuvius. An allusion to his bigoted and racist eruptions on the issues of the day which were syndicatee in union newspapers. Lockes use of the appalling nasby too ridicule disloyal opponents of the administration delighted lincoln. The nasby papers were his constant companion. The pamphlet copy in the librart of congress has singe marks made by the president s candle for his nighttime reading. He could quote passages at wills and on the final afternoon of his life, lincoln delayed dinner by reading nasby aloud to two old friends from illinois. Gs, for thei genius to write these things, lincoln told the author, i would gladly give up my office. The pleasure he took in lockes savage assault on racial prejudice and antiemancipationl sentiment speaks involumes aboun the moral springs of lincolns r owned humor. He admired the great ethical force of lockes satire. Leonard sweet maintained the president read nasby as much as he did the bible. Lincoln relished pretty well rdy every form of the comic, tall tales and absurdity, word play y and a delight in the plasticity ambiguity, and surprises of language. Quick wit, irony, and notoriously, dirty jokes and stories. But his love of nasby tells us that his chief pleasure was satirical humor that elicited righteous mirth, just laughter, occasioned by comic writing designed to deliver a moral critique. But as my title indicates, i er. Shall focus this morning on the utility of lincolns humor. The purposes to which he put it, the personal and political benefits that accrued, and the political danger that day in being known as a humorist, r. Particularly as a leader in time of war. Unbalanced, but he derived more advantage than not from the ans pursuit of laughter and that hih humor was an essential element in his statesmanship in his skill in Public Affairs. We should recognize that lincoln deployed humor as an act of his deliberate selfconscious therapy. As a Health Giving salve. Toriou his appetite for comic release o and hisn notorious vulnerabilit to depression were two sides of the same coin. Laughter was a therapeutic antidote to the grievous low ea spirits to which he was prone. Ta lincoln explained, if it were s not for these stories, jests, e jokes, i should die. They give vent. My mood they are the vent of my moods and gloom. At the landmark capitol meeting of september 22nd, 1862, where he unveiled the preliminary emancipation proclamation, he u began by reading a short piece. Gentlemen, why dont you laugh, he asked his irritated t colleagues, with a fearful strain that is upon me night and day, if i did not laugh, i should die. Of impos humor was also, of course, a means of empowerment, of imposing himself on others. From an early age, lincolns comic story telling and mimicry made him entertaining company. His odd lanky appearance and bookish appetites might in e. Another young man have been a recipe for social reticence and shyness. But his physical awkwardness tr seems not to have troubled him. Rather, he had a strong sense of self worth and enjoyed the personal regard he won for his amiable wit and quaint stories. This social empowerment helped, for example, to secure his election as a military captain in the blackhawk war, to win him the respect of fellow congressmen in his washington boarding house, and to make him the magnet for the well disposed attention of lawyers and residents gathered at the county seat of the illinois eighth circuit. Later in life, lincoln would repeat with appreciative glee the description of a type of ck southwestern political orator who, as i quote, mounted the rostrum, threw back his head, shined his eyes, opened his mouth, and left the consequence to god. In sharp contrast, there was little in lincolns own speeches that was not planned and well r calculated. His use ofic coumor and stories in his public addresses and private conversations was rarely lacking in broader intent or designed to cover up empty thought. The utility of his humor can be categorized under six headings. At times it lay in crushing opponents. More commonly, when used as a means of selfdepreciation, and of emphasizing his common touch, humor could be a weapon of subtle attack. Sometimes, it was a way of disingenuously planted a selfserving idea into the mind of his heroes. It provides a means of tactical diversion or obfuscation and ith had a role in relation to public morale. Above all, he used his stories l ofan parablees, as a persuasiveh form of political explanation. , first, then, the use of humor tn crush opponents. As he was firing whig politician, lincoln occasionally resorted to cruel and aggressive behavior, not simply to put hish opponents on the offensive but to eviscerate and humiliate insn them. The socalled roasting of forkee was just one instance of lincoln using his power to hurt to ge co withering effect. Thewd occasion wasngfi ael meet front of a large crowd in reele springfield during his campaigne for reelection to the state Pr Legislature in 1836. Lincolns impressive speech prompted a request from george forker, a prominent local democrat, that he be given the e stand. Nd had a recent convert from pncolns whig party, and had been arrewarded by his new associates with a lucrative public office. He had also built the best housa in the city over which he had erected a lightning rod, the ea, only one in the place. 15 years lincoln senior, the patronizing forker declared the young man would have to be taken down. Ged he w after waiting with suppressed ut excitement, lincoln resumed the stand. He acknowledged that he was young, but he said his critics should remember, i am older in yearsof than i am in the tricks and trades of politicians. I desire to live and i desire a place and distinction, but i would rather die now than, like the gentleman, live to see the day i would change my politics for anth office worth 3,000 a year and then feel compelled to erect a lightning rod to protect a guilty conscience from an offended god. During the same phase of life, h lincoln learned theat painful lesson that selfindulgent aggressive humor could injure its author as well as its a target. In september 1842, he wrote for the pages of a journal, a satirw ridiculing james shields. Shields was an impetuous man is with a short fuse, and he had good reason to rage at the insult with its sexual insinuations and demeaning assault on his character. Shields challenged lincoln to a duel, and lincoln reluctantly accepted the challenge. We cannot be sure how far he ea. Intended the dark humor that oad lurked in his selection of weapons. Calvary broad swords of the incs largest tsize, precisely equaln all respects. Ave a taller than shields, lincoln would have a huge advantagee in reach. He did manage a joke on the wayw to the dueling ground past the hundreds who had turned out. He was reminded, he said, of the Young Kentuckians whose sweetheart when he was leaving to fight, presented him with a belt with the motto victory or death. Isnt that rather too strong, the grateful volunteer said . Suppose you put victory or be crippled . Only at the lastr moment was th duel averted. Never again would lincoln, who was deeply embarrassed by the whole episode, never again would he write insulting anonymous or pseudonymous satire. And he realized ridicule could damage the author as well as the victim. Over time,as he learned to bow more deft in sharpening a oppo debating edge. As a maturing politician, he juiced gentler wit to put his opponents on the back foot, and no one was moreof aware of this than steven douglass, who said he didnt fear lincoln in debating substance, there is one thing, however, i stand constantly in dread. When lincoln begins to tell a story, i begin to get apprehensive. Every one of his stories seems like a whack on my back. No that is exactly the effect of the allegories have on me. Nothing else disturbs me, but when he begins to tell a story, i feel i am to be overmatched. Next self depreciation and subtle attack. In his facetoface engagement with the and jok public, lincol recourse of stories and jokes was designed to remind of his lowlyly origins, of belonging t the back woods and of the prairie. It encouraged Common People to see him as a natural man lacking artifice, able to engage with ordinary farmers and laborers on equal terms. Lincolns lifelong selfidentification with plain folkselfd was closely allied t habit of self depreciation. He made much of his unprepossessing appearance. U conscious of his unusual physical proportions, his height and unusually long limbs, and t aware that many considered him d an ugly man, he faced that head on. His jesting gave rise to as he was splitting rails, he found himself looking down the gun n e barrel of a passerby who explained he had promised to shoot the first man he met who t was uglier than himself. Getting a good look at the mans face, lincoln remarked, while bearing his chest, well, if i am uglier than you, then blaze away. This selfmockery amounted to far more than a means of securing a laugh. By preempting comments about his strange looks, modest upbringing and calculated eccentricities. It was also a means of enlisting the audience on the side of the underdog. He used this big man little man technique throughout his prepresident ial years against some of the biggest or torical beasts. In his political wrestling with douglass f throughout the 1850s he assumed the identity of a modest provincial phasing the renowned hope for the white self house who was enjoyed the statur a very great man while he himself was only a small man. Dii the heavy irony of this language intensified by the sight of thel diminutive little giant stanging next to the elongated lincoln. Lincoln also used laughter to a larger selfserving idea. As a lawyer, he wielded humor to plant a seed that would shape rk the deliberations of a jury. During a lunch break, he is sai to have told jurors the story of a small boy who ran to summon his father. Paw, paw, come quick. The hired man and sis are up, e and hes pulling down his pants and shes lifting up her skirts, and pa, theyre getting ready to pee all over our hay. The father advised, son, youve got your facts absolutely right, but you have drawn completely the wrong conclusion. Later in court, following his opponents lengthy winding up t speech, lincoln told the jurors, my learned opponent has his facts absolutely right, but he has drawn completely the wrong conclusion, and he won the case. Humor also provided a means of diversion. He used anecdotes to turn or to smooth the conversation without giving offense. Isance john hay told how in late 1863, an infernal nuisance of a brooklyn post master with his eyes on the following years president ial election fastened o himself to the tycoon and tried to get into conversation on the subject of the succession, would lincoln run again . The president quickly put him up with a story of his friend jesst dubois, who as state auditor, controlled the use of the Illinois State house in gious le springfield. And a quack preacher requested it as the venue for a religious lecture. Jesse . It about, saidist. The Second Coming of christ, ih said the parson. Nonsense, roared jesse. If christ had been to springfield once and got away, he would be damn clear of coming again. One of the president s most stressful tasks ass leader of tt new administration in 1861 was dealing with the avalanche of applicants for government postsy he was bombarded with far more requests than he had jobs. One day, a delegation called toh urge the appointment of an acquaint nls of theirs as commissioner of the sandwich aisles. They earnestly emphasized not only his fitness for the post fr but his poorom health, which won benefit from the climate. The president closed the that t interview with affected regret. Gentlemen, im sorry to say that there are eight other applicants for that place, and they are all sicker than your man. But above all else, lincolns stories served as parables, as s colorful and pointed means of an instruction, not obfuscation, ty not obfuscation, instruction and elucidation. They gave him the a means ofrgu driving home political argumentt with engaging economy. Min he neverd. Seemed to talk withoe some definite aim in mind, one t acquaintanceo reflected. The few stories i heard him relate were told in each instance to illustrate some welldefined point. Lincoln himself told a colleague, they say i tell a great many stories. L i do, but i have found in the course of a long experience that Common People, e Common People, take them as they run, are more easily influencedi and informed through the mediums of broad illustration than in he any other way. Ents as president , he used stories to drive home political arguments with engaging economy. When Major General john pope telegraphed he had captured 5,000 confederates, the cabinete asked the president s opinion. That reminds me, he replied, of an old woman who was ill. The doctor gave her medicine for her constipation. The next morning, he found her e fresh and well and getting breakfast. She confirmed the medicine had worked. Now, how many movements, the physician inquired . 142, she replied. Madam, i am serious, the physician replied, how many. 142. Madam, i must know. It is necessary i have the exac number of movements. I tell you, 142. 140 of them, wind. Lincoln closed the discussion, s am afraid popes captures are 140 of them wind. Finding himself with the support of only one member of the cabinet during a critical phase of the trent affair, when eizure britain threatened war over the union navy seizure of confederate envoys from a bri british ship. He recalled the drunk. Lots of drunks in lincolns stories, he recalled a drunk whn strayed into an Illinois Church and fell asleep in the front s row. He slumberred ononside as the revivalists ask who are on the lords side, and the uired, w congregation responded by risin en masse. When the preacher then inquired, who are on the side of the devil, the sleeper stood, but not before grasping the inquiry. He stood up, i dont exactly understand the question, he said, but ill stand by you parson to last, but itit seems me that were in a hopeless minority. Ways. The power of lincolns humor to enforce his argument is on one instant irresistible. It confirmed the president as the representative american. The womens rights activist and abolitionist Caroline Healy dold rebuked those fine lady whose were repelled by the president s homely manners and jokes. As a nation, she wrote, we are e an intell jntd but not a cultivated people. Mr. Lincoln fairly represents ci our average attainment and hes never written a letter that mely behumble of his constituents ae cannot. Understand. Aesop told some stories and his homely wisdom has kept his namek alive. Our divinenono master knew littf classic law but he did know how to tell a little instructive story. During his presidency, lincolns supporters seized on his studied use of humor to show how an occupant of the white house could remain a genial man of tho people. Proadministration newspaperss readily drew attention to the president s latest story. With sv lincolns private secretary, john hay, cultivated a warm th a relationship with several journalists and supplied them with examples of the president s wit. Commercial interests exploited this benignn reading of lincolnl humor. With t in compilations of jokes and ofries supposedly but rarely originating with the president. In setting up the moral value os lincolns story telling, his supporters sought to counter his opponents disdain for a chief f magistrate whose taste in jokes they declared made him unfit for his position. Ncoln both confederates and critics in the union seized on lincolns et humor ass a stick with which to beat him. Their common charge was that his aptielt for low jokes revealed a lack of gravitagravitas, that h humor to mask his deficiencies. His comic tales measured his cruel disregard for victims of e war. Lincoln, the heartless buffoon,k became a recurrent theme. Opposition presses were quick to circulate the essence of a powerful harpers weekly cartoon, columbia confronts her children. Published afterthe grievous uniious losses at p fredericksburg. A cartoon which i think is ng. Available to you in your packs this morning. A female figure with her arm outstretched, the female figuree being columbia, points at lincoln, who stands outside the War Department between Edwin Stanton and joe hooker, and asks where are my 15,000 sons murdered at fredericksburg . Lincolns callous answer, nterrt reminds me of a little joke, prompts an interruption. Go tell your joke at springfield. Democrats insinuated a critiquea of lincoln the joker into each and every of their key was m campaigning themes of 1864. Shoci none was more challenging than the charge of lincolns shockin. Levity in the face of numbing military slaughter. Le oppositions theme of lincoln, and i quote, the widow maker who lays the nation across his knee and tickles her cata catastrophe with obscene jokes and little stories, became a bos campaign staple. Tion t nothing gave this attack greaten power than the bogus accusation that when visiting the 2, blooddrenched Antietam Battlefield in october 1862, lincoln had shattered its sanctity by asking to hear a ira vulgar comic song while touring the field with bodies yet warm in their graves. Heav accompanies by another officer, he drove over the field as heavy details of men were burying the dead. Lincoln suddenly slapping lamin upon the knee, exclaimed, come on. Orge m give us that song abopicayune battler. The s general omeprotested, not if you please, marshal. Ign i would prefer to hear it some other place and time. The 1864 campaign gave political cartooniststfails unbridled opportunity to exploit this familiar theme of lincolns compulsive jesting. A dema in one lithograph, columbia demands her children, which you also have an image of, an angry columbia points at her ons. Discomforted president and shouts, mr. Lincoln. Give me back my 500,000 sons, which elicits a feeble diversionary response, well, the fact is, by the way, that reminds me of a story. And then a link curier and ivs cartoon has lincoln laughing at his jokes while the new secretary of the treasury churns out greenbacks. Isode above all, the bogus antietam ec episode offered the best target especially potent was a cartoon headed the commander in chief conciliates the soldiers vote on the battlefield, which you also have in your papers. It placed lincoln at the centers clade in a long cloak and holdg a cap, a reminder of the cowards disguise he is said to have worn when cutting short his journey to washington as president elect. Several dead bodies are being carried from the field while an officer, evidently mcclellan, tends to a wounded soldier. A distraught figure is back to the viewer, signals his distress by holding a hand with couplehood song books routinelyl deployed this malignant readingr of lincoln in their verses. I quote, you may call your black battalions your sinking cause and substitute your vulgar joker for liberty and laws. Know by the memory of our rish fathers, by those green. Unnumbered graves well perish on 10,000 fields as we become your slaves. And in the song, mack, my at darling, the first verse is a e tribute to mcclellans victory at antietam, the second verse k runs, abe may crack his jolly jokes or bloody fields of stricken battle while yet the ebbing lifetide smokes from men that die like butchered cattle. He a yet begins grow cold to anr pimps and pets may crack his an stories. Your name is of with the grandd and linked with all our deter brightest glories. S well, its impossible to determine aprecisely how lincolns reputation as a jokerh shaped the political balance at sheet in 1864, that the administrations supporters pre included many who found the president s levity distasteful indicates that for them at least the matter was not decisive. Eato but his opponents clearly believed offered Great Electoral opportunity. And lincoln, too, well understood how his reputation for levity could expose him to c misrepresentation and electoral damage. Only after careful reflection that he opted not to respond publicly to the antietam fiction. In time after his death, his sn reputation aser the peerless president ial story spinner, joke teller, and ready wit would come to take on a character wholly positive and benign. But that, however, was not the case during thehe dark and dead days of war. Aken ser my argument then is that lincolns sense of humor has toe be taken seriously. We should recognize its rich variety and complexity of purpose, understand its ethical dimension, and remain aware of the Political Risk that lincoln ran in retelling jokes why the nation, a republic of suffering, was engaged in an existential iu struggle costing at least three quarters of a million lives. S hi as the nation suffered, so, of course, did the president. Was ah humor was his lifeline. Lincoln was a shiny example of the truth proffered by the theologianhe who perceived humog as a proof of the capacity of l the self to gain a Vantage Point from which it is able to look at itself. People with a sense of humor do not take themselves too seriously. Themsel theyre able to stand off from themselves, to see themselves in perspective, and recognize the b ludicrous aspects of their selvs pretensions. All of us ought to be ready to laugh at ourselves because all of us are a little funny in our foibles, our conceits, and our pretensions. What is funny about it is ins precisely that we take ourselves too seriously. We are rather insignificant bundles of energy and vitality in a vast organization of life. O those human foibles, consea s c and pretensions are at the heart of what made lincoln c and his appreciation of the absurdity of the human condition infused the stories he told. More a the sense of humor is in many n respects a more adequate resource for the incongruities of life, to me meet the high frustrations of life, the contingencies with laughter is a high form of wisdom. If man have some sense of the og precarious nature of the a huma enterprise, they prove theyre looking at the whole drama of life, not merely from the circumscribed point of view of their own interests but from some further and higher Vantage Point. This, he suggested, was an aspect of the profound wisdom ca that underlaypa the american slaves astonishing capacity fol laughter. He considered a sense of humor e indispensable to men of affair e whose have the duty of organizing their fellow men in common endeavors. It reduces the frictions of life and makes the foibles of men a tolerable. In laughing at the foibles and d absurdities of others as of ourselves, we mix mercy and ingd judgment, censure and esman sh forbearance. Here was an indispensable ingredient of lincolns wise statesmanship. In his strenuous nurturing of the republic, lincoln the statesman could call on strategic wisdom, clarity of nin principle, skill in political management and communication, grasp of human psychology, and physical and mental strength. H. To these ingredients i believe we should add his remarkable ans celebrated sense of humor. S sens ane expression of his essentia humanity, his sense of proportion, and understanding of human foibles. Served by an exceptional nguage, intellect, flawless memory, quick wit, and mastery of friend language, lincoln used his stock of tall tales and jokes to foster friendship, build support, and undermine particul opponents arguments, particularly when they wreaked of injustice. Uestion and lincolns example leads us to ponder the question, is it possible to exercise statesmanship without a sense om the ludicrous, of the absurdities and flaws of o reflc humankind, ones self included. It seems to me all political ta leaders would do well toug reflt on this truism. The less we are able to laugh otourselves, the more it becomes necessary and inevitable that others laugh at us. Thank you. Rything you mentioned that lincoln had a story for everything or a joke. Ou and they always seemed to fit the situation perfectly. Do you think that he memorized thousands or hundreds of stories . Or do you think he was just really good at making them up on the spur of the moment . Its the former, not the latter. Lincolns memory was formidable. As im sure youre well aware. He said that once a thing was rr scratched on theev metal of his mind, it was ineradicable. It was there forever. What strikes me about lincolnsy use of stories in every settingp where they were pertinent, was his extraordinary capacity for f recall and appropriate recall. Vl he did use it had to be said, he did use some of the stories several times over in different settings, often making the same sort of point. S he didnt make them up himself. L i mean, he said he was a he said he was a retail dealer. He was telling other peoples stories. But he adapted the stories that he had read in, well, one of his sources was joe millers jest. Joe millers jest book first composed and compiled in 1730s in london, by the british jester and joker, joe miller, went ns through subsequently many, many was circulating in the american west, across america, certainly in the american west, in the early 19th century. Updated, new s inturpilated, and lincoln remembered all of the stories that he was told by others as they swapped yarns. He. His father was, it was often said lincoln had a poor relationship with his father, and that wasthat no doubt a ks difficult relationship, but thats one of the most important things lijen got from his father, the capacity to tell oke stories. His father was a and very, verd joker and story teller. Family exchange of stories was s important to him. He heard stories as a young man in new salem, certainly on the circuit with other lawyers he acquired stories. These were all filed away. I dont think he kept a joke book. It is said by some that he had a file of jokes. He certainly jotted some down. There was a moment where he was waiting in line, being introduced at the white house, and there was one person with whom he had quite a long conversation. The conversation was about the source of a joke that lincoln had heard, and he wanted the wa source of w that joke. Which he could then file away. I dont think it was a written file. I think it was filed away up there. So lincoln said, no more than half a dozen stories have i made up myself, but he did adapt those stories. So the story, for example, of the, you know, when he was complaining that grant drank whiskey and the story may be true, but he said, well, just t send i a barrel of whiskey to a my other generals, thats straight from joe miller. Miller. That is in the joe miller joke book. It is not original to lincoln. Obviously his public life and political cases, et cetera, his humor really benefited but would you say because of his moroseness and severe depression that the greatest benefit and the greatest person to benefit was his own psychology, his own ability to snap himself out of difficult moves, et cetera. Yes. I believe so. And there is no way of b quantifying, sort of bent for the calculus of who benefitted l most from lincolns humor but one could say he regarded it as essential to his well being. Te e and he said to carpenter, francis carpenter, the painter in the white house, if it were not for the events, it is the vent for my important well being, he was acutely aware. At one stage, and this is of a relevant to your m question, at one stage he said speaking of a member of his cabinet, was probably salmon chase but it might have been stanton, there were several potential candidates. O it was so difficult to get a joke into his head that it would take a surgical operation to implant it. It is very funny. It is not lincolns. Again, it is not his creation. He takes it from the english clergyman sydney smith who was somewhat a wit. And i mention that because smith suffered from depression. And he set out a table of a 10 e recipe for preventing the worst tfects of depression. So ten steps to avoiding the deepest depression. And at the center of these was. Humor. Finding humor. Being able to find humor in whatever circumstance you felt yourself in. Im sure that lincoln will haveo read sydney smith and he would have taken that listen to heart. He didnt need to take it to heart. T his he had already learned it. But he saw its importance. And how did it affect his marriage good or bad. Iat does mary todd think about this . Well, tomeone i think michae burningham may be able to answer that question better than i. But i think it is very unlikely that lincoln told many of these stories to mary. Pany. I mean these lincolns story telling was intended for male company. The socalled smutty jokes thaty he told, proba the off color jo that he told probably wouldnt strike us as quite as appalling as they struck the victorian sensibilities of the drawing room bututcomp they werean inte male company in the taverns and the circuit and cabinet room ano in the political intercourse conversation. How did it act his marriage . I dont know how far lincoln used humor within his marriage. I think almost certainly his sense of irony, his capacity for dry wit, his capacity to any situation that was troubling in a way that sort of might have turned it to his advantage withs mild humor. I think that probably would have been true of hisis marriage. But i dont think his marriage conversations would have been the exchanging of stories, however decent. Egory ou professor cardin, is there any anecdotes that you didnt include in this mornings lecture . And is thereticians an equival sense of humor of any british my politicians that come to mind . Ive given only a small spattering of the many jokes. Which are the larger number areh availablete book in a look call lincolns sense of humor. I forgot the author. I benefited enormously from reading it. This is just the tip of the i th iceberg that ive given you. Icar i thought you were going to say thousand does itt compare with other american president s and which of course is a topic in n its own. On the whole whole, i think tha Michael Bishop who kindly ch introduced me andur has been tht head of thehe national churchilt center o here in washington, wi probably want to say that churchill was the most obvious parallel. And we were, in fact, talking about churchills humor and churchill was both very funny in his own right. Probably was more naturally immediately witty, although lincoln has the capacity for immediate wit and about whom in case of churchill there are many tales. And if i may, ill tell that tale you were talking about. He got a churchill got a telegram and message from george bern shaw which shaw said, im sending you two tickets for the first night of my new play. Do come yourself and bring a friend if you have one. To which churchill allegedly replied, thank you for your two tickets. Ha i cant get along on the first night but ill come along on the second night, if you have one. [ laughter ] as the ali borg psychiatrist make a couple of points. Kind of just some thoughts hereb i would suggest that there is a difference between lincolns use of humor in public and private and his concerns and difficulties with intimacy. I was wondering if you would comment on that. Because lincoln remains a person noble in many ways, including people that thought they knew him well. I wasnction wondering if you co . That. T on the distinction between his public use of humor and i missed the second. He used stories in many ways to deflect and i was wonder field goal you wou wondering if you would comment on that. Alth important y point. Although lincoln was the life and sole of company and conversations, whether oneonone or whether larger gatherings, he remained unmillable to most of them. In fact, to probably all of omi them, actually. Did they really know the inner h man. Howinery forthcoming was he . And i think very often i think i understand the nature of your question is that joketelling, being witty and funny is a way of deflecting discussion of matters of personal substance. So, youre the psychiatrist, buf i find that entirely possible. I was wondering in your studies whether you would go along with that. Yes, i do. As david davis said about lincoln and anyone who believes they know what lincoln really believed, they are selfdelusional, diluting themselves. He was the most shutmouthed man. N. But he was shutmouthed in the sense that he wrote wonderful speeches. He was wonderful company. But in terms of the personal forthcoming and emotionally forthcoming, i think davis was right. And you could think about the possible impact on his marriage in relation to that. Thank you. I think that was that was the last question. Thank you. [ applause ] thank you. Here is what is ahead on cspan3 American History tv. Next, from our first lady series, it is a look at mary todd lincoln. In about an hour and 35 minutes, more from our first lady series with the focus being elisa johnson. And in three hours and 10 minutes a discussion on Abraham Lincolns sense of humor. First ladies, influence and image on American History tv. Exam pins the private lives and the public roles of the nations first ladies through interviews with top historians. Tonight we look at julia grant and lucy hayes. Julia grant was a staunch defender of womens rights in general and refused to allow jokes at womens expense to be told in her company. And lucy hayes was the first first lady to have a college degree. Watch first ladies, influence and image, tonight at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on American History tv on cspan3. Cspan has unfiltered coverage of congress, the white house, the supreme court, and Public Policy events. You could watch all of cspan Public Affairs programming on television, online, on listen on our free radio app and be part of the National Conversation through cspans daily Washington Journal Program or through our social media feeds. Cspan, created by americas Television Companies as a Public Service and brought to you today by your television provider. Born in 1818 in lexington, kentucky, mary todd grew up in a slaveholding family jet lived to her see her husband Abraham Lincoln issue the emancipation