Transcripts For CSPAN3 House Small Business Committee Hearing On Economic Injury Disaster Loan... 20240712

Loans provided through the c. A. R. E. S. Act during the coronavirus pandemic. The House Small Business Committee held this hearing. I want to thank everyone for joining us this afternoon for our committees First Official remote hearing. I want to make sure to note some important requirements. House regulations require members to be visible through a video connection throughout the proceedings. So please keep your cameras on. Also, if you have to participate in another proceeding, please exit this one and log on later. You are recognized to minimize background noise. Over the last few months, the outbreak of covid19 has led to an unpresented Public Health crisis and dire economic crisis. We have lost over 10,000 people to the disease and 30 million remain unemployed. Back in february as the pandemic was getting worse, we knew we needed to take action to help our Small Businesses survive the economic downturn. We started working with the sba and governors around the country to leverage the sbas disaster resources available. Through the economic loan program. Can you please mute everyone should be muted. As the virus continues to spread, more state and local governments began imposing stayathome orders and business closures. We quickly realized Congress Needed to do more to meet the full scope of the problem and that is when we started working on what ultimately became the c. A. R. E. S. Act. To help Small Businesses and eligible nonprofits, congress created the new Paycheck Protection Program expanded eligibility to the idle program and provide payment and interest relief for current sba borrowers. I worked tirelessly to secure 10 billion in funding to create a new idle Emergency Program which was designed to get money into the hands of struggling Small Businesses quickly. Borrowers could request an advance of up to 10,000 within three days of applying. It need not to be repaid even if the applicant was eventually denied the idle. And due n n n n n n n n n n n nn infused another 10 billion and an additional 50 billion in the loan program as part of the paycheck program. They hired staff, upgrade technology and ultimately respond to demand in a timely, efficient fashion. Despite these steps and more than three months after Congress First enacted legislation to provide Economic Relief to Small Businesses, borrowers are still reporting significant challenges. For example, loans are supposed to have a maximum loan size of 2 million. We learned that sba imposed a maximum loan size of 150,000 shortchanging millions of Small Businesses. Unfortunately we also learned that sba is limiting the crucial grants to 1,000 per employee. And some are not even receiving the grant at all which is simply unacceptable. [ inaudible ] the positive impact this program could have on Small Businesses who need the help the most. We have heard that the sba has not communicated effectively with applicants nor has it provided them with reliable [ inaudible ] to check the status of their applications. Applicants need to know where they stand in the queue to approximate how much longer they can expect to wait to receive financing and given the current economic climate, if they are going to be denied, they deserve timely action so that they can explore options for capital elsewhere. These are just some of the reports the committee has received with the sba administration of the programs in the current covid19 era. As the commit undertakes its oversight duties we want to hear directly from Small Businesses who have applied for the program so that we can understand the successes and challenges they have experienced. However, in order to fully perform our work, we also need to hear from the Small Business administration. Without their appearance and testimony before this committee, it would be difficult to make additional changes to the agencys programs. Early today the administrator testified before the senate Small Business committee and it is my hope that she will testify before us soon as well. With that, i look forward to hearing from our witnesses about their perspective on how congress can keep working to improve the program and on where we should focus our oversight efforts i. Yie efforts. I yield to the Ranking Member for his Opening Statement. Thank you, madam chairwoman for holding this hearing. I would like to comment about the virtual format that were having here today and i do not hold you responsible for this, but i think the speaker should have the house of representatives in session, we have an awful lot of important work to do. Obviously, relative to Small Businesses. But there are so many other issues that the country is facing right now. Congress ought to be together. We represent the American People and dealing with these various challenges that our nation has before us. We have to be here. I happen to be in washington right now. Im in my office because im also on the Judiciary Committee and we have a hearing going on as i speak with relative to the tragic killing of george floyd and the aftermath of that. I was there this morning. After i give my Opening Statement, i have to go back there because ill be asking questions shortly here. But, again, i dont hold you responsible, madam chair. Youve done a tremendous job. I would prefer if you were the Ranking Member rather than the chair. I do think you do a great job. But congress should be in session and i cant emphasize that strongly enough. Relative to the eidl loan program, it operates within the sbas Disaster Loan Program and it was already up and running as we know long before the covid19 swept across the globe. Its important to note that the progra had its trouble in the past, but it was consistently making improvements. Created by it was supposed to be a Regional Program that provided assistance to Small Businesses after a disaster. Covid19 has presented numerous challenges to the program. The economic downturn caused by the Coronavirus Crisis is completely overwhelmed the eidl program. As the crisis unfolded, the lines of communication from the sba to bids about the eidl program has deteriorated. Additionally, the total loan amount and the grant amount available within the program continue to be uncertain. These hurdles and roadblocks have impacted the Small Business ability to make critical decisions during these uncertain times. Thus far the program has provided assistance to over 1 million Small Businesses all across the country to the tune of approximately 80 billion. In my home state of ohio, for example, its provide over 25,000 loans for a total of over 1. 7 billion. Today communication is slowly improving but certainly more work needs to be done and i commend you, madam chair, for holding this hearing in order to assist us in getting that job done [ inaudible ] we obviously sent a letter together in a bipartisan manner just recently urging the sba that they have a lot of things they have to improve on. Its critically important that we have this discussion to understand how Small Businesses have faired during this crisis and how congress can work to make improvements. Throughout this entire crisis, ive joined dozens of my house colleagues on Conference Calls and town Hall Meetings and a whole range of calls with Small Businesses in their districts. Questions on the eidl program were raised on a great many of these calls. And obviously their principle interest was in the ppe, the Paycheck Protection Program, but the eidl loan program is still there and dramatic improvement is needed. Congress has worked in a bipartisan manner to improve the Paycheck Protection Program. We must Work Together to ensure that the eidl is operating efficiently and effectively for Small Businesses during this pandemic and following. I look forward to discussing solutions can all of our Witnesses Today. Its important that we move forward with reforms that deliver for Small Businesses in my district and your district and districts all across the country. And, madam chair, following my Opening Statement i have to go back to the floyd and judiciary hearings. I will be heading over there. Im not sure if ill be back in time for the questioning part. I want to thank you for holding this hearing and i yield back. Thank you. I have news for you, you might have to wait a little longer. Okay. To go from ranking to chair. [ laughter ] i would like to take a moment to explain how this hearing will proceed. Each witness will have five minutes to provide a statement and each Committee Member will have five minutes for questions. Please ensure that your mic is on when you begin speaking is that you return to mute when finished. With that, i would like to thank our witnesses for taking time out of their business schedules to join us. With us today, we have the owner of the coworking space in los angeles area. After a career in works, she started his business in august of 2015 and taught herself how to write a Business Plan to get started. In just four years, her business successfully grew into two locations right before covid19 struck. She applied for an eidl but encountered many of the challenges that have been reported with the program. Thank you for joining us today and for sharing your experience. I now would like to recognize the vice chairman of the committee, mr. Evans, to introduce our second witness. Thank you, madam chair. I like the sound of that. We have a pharmacist and owner of christian street pharmacists located in the diverse neighborhood of south philadelphia. He has owned and operated the pharmacy since he graduated from Pharmacy School 33 years ago. Hes a lifelong resident of philadelphia where he attended two of my districts many excellent colleges, Temple University and the Community College of philadelphia. I could not ask for a greater representative from my district to speak with the Small Business committee on this important topic. I commend your commitment to serving and supporting the amazing citizens of philadelphia and thank you for participating in this hearing. I yield back to the chairwoman. Thank you, mr. Evans. And now i would like to recognize mr. Schneider of illinois to introduce our third witness. Thank you, madam chairwoman. It is my great pleasure to introduce my constituent and to thank him for sharing his perspective with us today. He lives in High Land Park and has practiced ophthalmology for the past 20 years. He runs the Eye Institute jointly with his father who started the practice more than 50 years ago. He earned his medical degree from the chicago medical school. He serves as an assistant professor of ophthalmology at northwestern university. I appreciate him sharing his perspective as a Small Business owner navigating both the complexities of this pandemic but also the challenges he faced with his eidl alone. Thank you for joining us today, craig. Thank you, mr. Schneider. And now i would like to turn it over to mr. Bishop to introduce our last witness. Thank you. Our next witness is karen kerrigan. [ inaudible ] also known as the sbe council. She has multiple decades of advocating for Small Businesses and the entire Small Business ecosystem with an expertise in startup funding in business growth, she serves on numerous boards and coalitions. Welcome and, madam chairwoman, i yield back. Thank you. Thank you, madam chairwoman, and the entire committee on Small Business for asking me to come here today and share with you the challenges that i faced when applying and receiving the eidl loan. Like she said, i own and operate a coworking space in california. Im not from l. A. I was born and raised in ohio. Ive had a lot of great accomplishments in my life, but outside of marrying husband, nothing has made me prouder than opening the rooms. Its a coworking space and we provide a work space for entrepreneurs, creatives and Small Businesses. We offer desk space offices and meeting rooms. It started with my idea in august of 2015 and within three months we opened. We were so successful that that summer we decided to open our second location in burbank and we were able to expand our first location. Within 4 1 2 years we had expanded to 14,000 feet with over 120 members. Then covid hit. We shuttered our doors on march 17th prior to mayor garcettis stayathome order. We suspended our billing because how can you charge somebody if they cant use your service. Then we the sba announced their loan and then i worked with the l. A. Network to get all of my ducks in a row to apply. There was a ton of paperwork that was required. On march 23rd, i started the loan process and this is when i started up loading my documents. And over the course of the next seven days, i was on hold for more than 25 hours and i had uploaded my application, i had faxed it, i had emailed it and each time i was told, no, no, youre doing the wrong thing. Just got to go to this new portal, supereasy. I went to the new portal and it was supereasy. So easy in fact that i didnt get an email confirmation that i had applied. I was smart enough to write down my loan number so i had a point of reference. I was always told, youre going to get an email to log into the portal, youre going to be able to talk to somebody, theyre going to look at your documents and tell you how much money youre going to get and it should be 2 1 2 times your monthly bills. Im not making my money and my bills are stacking up. On the 21st of april i received my advance. It was only a grand because i dont have employees. My neighbor next door, he had already gotten funded and he had received more than what he thought. So over the next ten days, i called several times wondering what was happening because nothing was being communicated. No emails. No answers and when you call you get a different each time. On may 1st, my credit was pulled and i got really excited. I got two landlords with their hands out. I have no income. I call, i get the same story, dont worry. May 16th i got that email and when i logged in to see the amount that was being offered, it did not even cover one month of my expenses. So i called and i was told by the woman on the phone, she read a statement to me for people who were calling in requesting more money than what was being offered and she told me this, that in order for all businesses to get a little money, they were limiting the amounts distributed and, remember, that this was when they were supposed to be giving up to 150k. I was taken aback. I was update. I had no one to talk to. I couldnt call anybody and no one to plead my case to. So the sba eidl loan that i thought was going to save my business has now put me in a position that guarantees that im going to have to close one of my locations. And i dont know how long that will last. The stress of covid was bad enough. Seriously, this sba loan experience, the 58 days of not knowing anything, on top of covid, this has been the most stressful period i have ever experienced, ever. Its been horrendous. Look, my entire business is built on Customer Service. Good communication is king. And let me tell you, without that, you are sending businesses into absolute chaos and i thank you for my time. Thank you. Your time has expired. You are recognized for five minutes. Hello, can you hear me . Yes, we can hear you. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before your committee today and i do apologize for the problem im having with my camera. Im very computer illiterate. My son set this up, and of course, today its not working. It worked last night. We did a dry run. But i would just like to thank you and to just basically highlight the testimony that i wrote and i hope you have in front of me. Very quickly, as congressman dwight evans stated, im a longtime resident of philadelphia, pennsylvania. I came here very young as an infant with the great migration from the south. My folks were from south carolina. They left after my father got out of the navy, after world war ii, and came to philadelphia. He wanted to have a better life for me and my other Seven Brothers and sisters. Ive been here at christian street pharmacy since about 1987 and over the years the area has changed tremendously. When i came down here, it was known for the the word was moral hazard. They wouldnt give me insurance on the building because it was predominantly black and red lined. Fast forwarding to 2020, it is about 90 white. Its been genert fied. Im landlocked. I have cvs four blocks away from me, walgreens, two blocks away from me, and im still in the process of holding on to the clients that i had prior to this. Pharmacy, unfortunately, is a very narrow profit margin Business Today with the competition that i just stated to you. Its very difficult normally with the very low rate of reimbursement. Its hard with the copaysu vju people that the Charitable Trust identified as being at or below the Poverty Level in philadelphia, and, yes, look just like me and the congressman. What weve been doing is we have been giving free deliveries and we run what they call tabs. Folks who do not have the copays to cover their medicine, wev v v v v v v v v v v access their funds at the first of the month with Social Security or whatever insurances they have, they will come and straighten their tab out. In view of whats in the country with the covid19 crisis, many of these people are very financially strapped. Theyre unable to pay the copays and for the most part, weve had to eat it. And i say eat it, we forego the copays and still continue to fill their prescriptions and were operating at a loss. The profit margin for an independent Retail Pharmacy in todays climate, according to the National Committee of retail pharmacists is around 3 to 5 . Its a very, very narrow profit margin. And when you couple that with the loss of copays, the fact that the pbms, pharmacy benefits managers, have for some reason slowed down on the reimbursement. Its like being caught in a threeway street. You cant get your copays. Youre not being properly reimbursed. And on top of that, i was turned down for the sba loan. So its a matter of trying to stay afloat and navigate through these very difficult times. If to give you a quick, quick kind of summary of what im saying, a small pharmacy fills up to, say, 50 prescriptions a day. Medium pharmacies between 100 and 200 prescriptions a day. A high volume would be filling greater than 200 prescription per day. Lets make it simple, if you filled 50 prescriptions a day at the lowest copay, 2, potentially you could lose 100 a day. This is over and above the other cash crunches that youre dealing with. Its put me in a pretty hard position this way, not to mention the kinds of expenses that you need just to operate. The philadelphia electric company, the gas works, the water, verizon and the like. Can you hear me . We hear you. We hear you. To let you know its been very difficult. I did go through the process to apply for the sba loan and i had great difficulties. It took me, like, a couple weeks roughly. And then they started to advertise that you could go to your local bank, they had some kind of portal or some kind of mechanism to go through the bank and apply for the loan. And finally i did that one evening, i believe, it was on the weekend. So basically its been a challenge and i do ask the Committee Members, if you would kindly look into the reason that sba is utilizing a credit check to either deny or allow someone to receive an sba loan. Thank you so much. Can you hear me . Youre muted, madam chairwoman. Youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me to speak today regarding my experience with the sba and respect to the eidl program. First i would like to introduce myself. Im an ophthalmologist who has been in private practice for the past 20 years. The pandemics disruption to my practice required that i needed assistance in order to survive. I listened toi the eidl program and the application process. I spent most of that evening locating the necessary forms and the next day on march 24th, i began the process to apply for the loan. Despite several crashes of the website and countless hours waiting on the help line, i was able to completely application 13 hours later. Subsequently, i received an email from the sba that my application had been received and then that another email saying that my application was under review. Throughout the following threeweek waiting period, i called the help line to ask questions only to be told that my loan was pending and that in three weeks, a loan officer would contact me regarding my approval and discuss the amount i needed and could borrow. Three weeks from the date of my completed application, the status on my portal changed from pending to please reapply to complete your sub certification. After following the required instructions, i was being told three weeks later to reapply. I completed the selfcertification form hoping it was an addendum, but then i received a new application number. I called the sba help line trying to figure out why i had two numbers. I was concerned that i was going to lose my position in line as the loans were said to be a first come first serve basis. The representative was unable to explain what had happened. I wrote a detailed email to the sba Customer Service and never received an answer. I received a response that directed me to three options, call the help line or write another email. The sba could provide no answers and left me in a helpless position. I couldnt use the website which had been removed. The help desk had no answers and could not address my concerns, and the email service offered nothing but an automatic reply. In desperation, i continued to send emails and i contacted congressman schneiders office for help in navigating this situation. While the congressmans office attempted to get information from their sba liaison, i called the help line almost four weeks out. At that time the sba representative explained that the loan application submitted prior to the newest version of the c. A. R. E. S. Act were disregarded and that individuals needed to reapply. I finally received an email response from the disaster Customer Service that simply stated you had to reapply because sba developed a new streamlined application process and those who applied before had to reapply. I received this notification as the sba ran out of funds from its first round of applications and, thus, shut down their application process. I was left unknowing if my completed application would ever be considered and what having two applications meant for my position in line for the loan. Uncertainty kills Small Businesses and this placed an extreme pressure on my practice. We do not have the luxury of time. Invoices, rent, utilities, payment and is the salaries of my staff continue to accumulate with no realization in how i would be able to cover those expenses. I needed the information and loan details that would allow me to decide to keep going or close up shop. The decisions that needed to be made in realtime with concrete answers. Unfortunately, hope doesnt pay the bills and put food on the table. Fortunately after six weeks, i received an email notification that i was approved for a loan and i was not given the opportunity to discuss the amount distributed. I accepted the loan and sent an email with documentation to support a greater need for additional funds but to this date, i have not received an answer from the sba. I hope my experience highlight hs while the c. A. R. E. S. Act was designed to aid Small Business needs, the lack of transparency surrounding the sba contribute to stress and that i and other bids owners were experiencing during this economic uncertainty. The reality of the process in dealing with the sba and specifically the eidl program fell significantly short of what was promised through rhetoric and reassurances. I hope in the future theres more done by congress to hold these loan programs accountable and to ensure that the sba is able to properly allocate the needed funds and communicate to millions of Small Business owners during a time of great uncertainty. Thank you for allowing me the time to address this committee. Thank you. And now we recognize ms. Kerrigan for five minutes. Thank you so much. It is really an honor to be here today and let me thank youkhkh Committee Members are doing to help Small Businesses join this very, very challenging period. We appreciated your early work in getting information out about what needed to be done to change the ppp program. Obviously, all of the members of the committee and you listen to Small Business owners and were so pleased that the Paycheck Protection Program flexibility act is now the law of the land. Its going to help a lot of Small Businesses but we continue to work to make even more improvements because theres a lot more that needs to be done. When i as a Membership Organization with 100,000 members throughout the country and being around now for over 25 years, when i listen to craig and nancy and jerome, you know, im hearing the members the stories of my members as well. What they went through in terms of the program is mirrors everything that our members have gone through. And as an organization, again, that has worked with the Small Business administration, you know, for the past 25 years on a lot of its programs, training programs, special initiatives, we dont take any pleasure in pointing out the problems and challenges with the eidl program. And all of us knew that the sba had a heavy and unprecedented lift in launching this program. We at sba council and all the Small Business advocacy associations that we work with, we understood there was going to be massive demand for capital in the Small Business community. But limited funds available. Especially in that First Tranche of money where the eidl program really left a very, very small amount. And even given, you know, many of the challenges in execution and communication, our members and Small Businesses that eventually received funds are grateful for this needed capital. But as you well know, there are many Small Businesses that got lost in the queue, that did not receive funds when they needed it or expected it and of course were surprised by the dollar limit placed on the maximum loan amount and the advanced limitation. As i expressed in my written testimony, we believe that a fair amount of this angst experienced by our Business Owners today about these about the problems, the communication that was generated by the program, really could have been avoided through transparent and immediate communication about these changes. On paper and as advanced by congress in the c. A. R. E. S. Act, the eidl loans were isledeally suited for different types of businesses. They were pleased to see a program that would meet their immediate capital needs, provide some flexibility in using these funds, and would, as advertised, deliver this capital with speed. Eidls break down as communicated by our members, Small Business owners across the country and of course our Witnesses Today, was and continues to be very sad to hear. Most Small Business owners were obviously shocked by the effects of covid19 and, you know, just the dramatic actions that happened afterwards, the plunge in demand and revenues and they were desperate to identify sources of capital that could act as a bridge to their reopening. These areas of concern as noted by our written testimony included the lack of information about application status, no communication for long stretches of time, the shrinking advance based on employee numbers, the much smaller loan cap than advertised by the program and provided for by the c. A. R. E. S. Act, confusion about how loan amounts were determined by the sba and then of course eventually them being shut out of the program due to the agricultural window that was established. No doubt this crisis has been like none other and unfortunately many Small Businesses needing help through the eidl program experienced these frustrations with the program when every minute of program when every minute of focusing on Productive Work and activity that would carry them through the shutdown period and onto recovery. Thank you. Your time has now expired. I want to really thank all of the witnesses for everything that you shared with us and i will start by recognizing myself for five minutes. Doctor, i understand that you were drawn to the eidl program by the maximum loan size and you were disappointed to learn of sba 150,000 cap. I understand the unpresented dema Unprecedented Demand forced them to make difficult decisions, but they must operate in accordance to the law. Can you tell us how its affected your business . Yes, thank you. Thank you, madam chairwoman. The first issue is the complete uncertainty. Many of us didnt know we were going to get any money at all and then we were counting on at least being able to communicate with someone, what type of needs we had and how that loan was going to eventually help us. The 150,000 that i was granted was barely enough to cover my expenses for a month. At this time, im still not operating at not even close to my normal precovid level. For the last two months, weve been seeing 15 of my normal patient volume and were not we werent operating until approximately about three weeks ago. To not know whats happening and then finally just to be given a certain amount of money with no answers, with no recourse to try to appeal really kind of sets me as a Small Business now i have to explore other avenues. Now im starting from, you know from the beginning, again, trying to look at different aspects of kind of that i can get capital in order to maintain my business. Thank you, doctor. I agree with you that probably we might need to do more. We might have we might have to another relief package. We do not know how this program has worked. We dont have any data. There is not an explanation that has been provided to us as to decisions that were made, changing the loan size from 2 million to 150,000. Then, like dr. Gerstein explained, they were not able to get any answers, any information as to the status of their loan applications. So do you agree with me that as a member of this committee, we cannot move to make any other changes or expand the program without administration coming before the committee and providing the information that is required for members of congress to do our job, and that is oversight, and that is to get to the bottom of what happened so that we might make some legislative changes . I agree totally. We need that information, that data from the sba, and we need what went into the decisionmaking in terms of going off course from what was actually in the c. A. R. E. S. Act. Yes, in order to do your job, it would be great if we had more money, it would be great if we could make those Small Businesses whole that didnt receive the 10,000 grant as they were promised, and perhaps more money can be provided for that. But yeah, i think taxpayers, the american public, want you to have as much information as possible, data, feedback, in order to know what is the path forward with this program. It absolutely is critical. Thank you so much. Mr. Whack, would it be helpful for applicants if sba clearly communicated the minimum so applicants would know exactly where they stand prior to applying for a disaster loan . Mr. Whack . Be a good first step, because in addition to waiting like a couple of weeks to be able to get on to the website, youre in such a state of anxiety not even knowing if youre going to be approved, and when they did give me a response that was also not that great. It took them like almost a month later to give me a response, and then it was kind of vague. I mean, unsast was there something i could have done perhaps in filling out the application that would have changed the way they looked at the application. Thank you, mr. Whack. My time has now expired. Thank you, madam chair. Im sorry, you cut out. I didnt hear my name. I apologize. Thank you, everyone, for being here. My first question will be for mrs. Kerrigan. Thank you for joining us today. My questions, as you are aware, this has been a devastating time period for our nation, Small Businesses have been forced to severely reduce their operations or in many instances, sadly, have had to close their doors. Ive been in constant communication with Small Business owners around my district around the many challenges they faced during this time and something these constituents routinely bring up is something you highlight in your testimony, access to capital now and in the near future. From the Research Done by the sba council and your own perspective, how have the programs benefitted Small Businesses . You know, theyve benefitted some. Theres been a lot of Small Businesses who have not been able to benefit from these programs. If you look at the ppp program, for example, when it first started it was those that were largely connected to the banks and Financial Institutions. I think as more banks came online, community banks, Credit Unions and even the addition i think particularly of the big fin tech companies, this made a big difference in getting this capital to a lot of those who didnt have sort of the commercial banking loan relationship with their banks or with their Financial Institutions. So as the programs went on, both, you know, ppp and eidl, they got better in terms of their communication and funding. I think with the eidl program its a different animal, because with ppp you do have many players, the private sector, who is better involved with the distribution of that capital and more players involved, where dlsh as the eidl its the sba alone. It may be time that we try to look at some type of ppp partnership if we want to do Something Like this moving forward because its apparent that the sba didnt have the capacity, the technology, the artificial intelligence, all that they needed to do this rapidly and quickly and thats what Small Businesses needed. Whether it was ppp or eidl, they needed rapid access to capital. So hopefully we wont have an event like this moving forward, but we might, and weve got to be prepared for it. And given that we have technology and all the innovation, i dont see why we cant do this more rapidly. I think thats the big issue, is getting this money to businesses rapidly and being able to communicate to them so they can make decisions about where theyre going to be Going Forward and help them navigate through the recovery period. Thank you very much. Madam chair, i yield back. Thank you. The gentleman yields back and now we recognize the gentlelady from iowa for five minutes. Thank you so much, madam chair. Its good to see you and the folks on this committee and the folks who have joined us to share their perspective and help us do our jobs on oversight here. One thing that i have been focused on a lot during this pandemic is we pass these bills, the c. A. R. E. S. Act, getting it signed into law where these dollars go to these agencies, but at the end of the day, its often up to the agencies of how they put these dollars out, what the rules and regulations are behind them. And it just underscores how important it is to do the oversight with these agencies and make sure theyre getting it out to the community in the right way. So thank you, thank you, thank you, madam, chair, for holding this hearing today, helping us do this the right away. And clearly listening to testimony today and then also hearing from my constituents throughout the First District in iowa, we have a lot of work to do when it comes to oversight with the Small Business administration and how these programs have been rolled out and also how theyre moving forward here. So dr. Gerstein, actually i would love to ask you a question. I chair the Rule Development agriculture trade and entrepreneurship subcommittee on the Small Business committee and something that our Committee Heard about when we held a discussion a few weeks ago was from a woman, a banker from my Congressional District in northeast iowa, who is also a farmer and she said many Business Owners didnt have the information to determine which Small Business Administration Program would work best for their business model. So how did you arrive at the decision to apply for the eidl loan rather than the paycheck protection loan, and also in hindsight, given that some of the challenges you faced in applying for your loan and your award being less than you needed, would you still have applied for the eidl loan and would you have applied for assistance at all given what you know now . And little let you answer that part first and then i have a followup for you. Sure. Having gone through the experience, i would not go through the experience ever again. It was traumatic, it was stressful, there was no communication. It took tons and tons and tons of my time trying to educate myself and trying to figure out avenues to try to get answers. And i did apply for a ppp loan and consciously did not go through the sba simply because there was no communication with the sba and i didnt want to start going down the road again of trying to get something and not being able to talk to somebody, versus a bank where you can actually make a phone call and get an answer. To answer that part. The way i got the information was the town hall through congressman schneiders office. He kind of laid out certain Different Programming and that was the loan that seemed to promise the most. And that was the loan initially before the ppp was out and was passed. And what really was terrifying to a Small Business, especially myself, was that constant reminder of this is going to be first come, first serve. So you knew you could see the need was out there and you knew that you needed to get things done in order to get in that line. Thats where a lot of my stress came, because i was applying and i did everything right and i hung in there just to get the application in, only to ball into the abyss. What Additional Resources would have been helpful during that process from the Small Business administration, and then also now that you know what you know now, what would you hope they do moving forward here . Well, the two things i can say, and im not an expert on running the sba in any regard, but i can tell you communication is paramount, especially with Small Businesses. We need to know where we are, we need to know when they can expect a decision to be made and i remember in the beginning i was very upset that i couldnt request the amount i was asking for. There was nowhere on the form to even say this is what my need was, and that was very stressful. So the more transparency, and better infrastructure to deal with the Small Businesses. Your time has expired. I recognize the gentleman from oklahoma for five minutes. Thank you, madam chairwoman. Another Ranking Member had to leave. I want to thank the witnesses for being here today during these certainly difficult times. As a Small Business owner for over 35 years, i certainly feel the pain of when we have these kind of disasters and in 35 years ive seen a few. Obviously nothing as severe as what were seeing now and during these difficult times were going to have stresses on our system and weve seen those. And as we all know, the sbarr but we also want to thank the great work that all of us have done in a bipartisan way in getting the ppp loans out and the eidl programs out because we all know that its estimated it saved up to 50 million jobs in america and weve got to be concerned about whats getting ready to happen as we roll off of these loans. As some of you may know, the eidl program has done over several hundred thousands in loans, upwards of 80 billion in loan dollars and in my states about 7,200 loans and almost a half a billion dollars in loans. As we work, i think the administrator is working hard to try to figure out and listen, shes been in the senate side listening to the Small Business community there and i, too, would like her to come back to our committee to hear what we have to say as well as we go through our factfinding. Mrs. Kerrigan, you talk about some of the shortfalls in your testimony and again as a Small Business owner, i know that you cannot be successful by dwelling on past mistakes. Were here to learn and move forward. Can we talk about solutions to these issues on these mistakes, and what are some of the solutions that you think the sba could implement moving forward to perfect the program and help more and more struggling Small Businesses . Congressman, youre absolutely right, this crisis was unprecedented and the charge that was given to the sba was unprecedented, so we certainly understand that. Theyve had their challenges over the years and their successes over the years. I think the key one is communication and as you heard through the testimony today and as were hearing from our members, even if its bad news, Business Owners want to hear it from the sba in terms of were not going to turn around your loan or youre not going to get the capital in three days as was promised, right, its going to take longer. Theres massive demand. Or we ran out of money or were going to run out of money within a shortened period of time. So i think the more communication is better for Small Business owners, because as you know, you can make decisions based on that. So more information is better. I think the other thing with all these programs, and including ppp, congressman, is that as the law is passed by congress, that is how it has to be implemented by the agencies. Obviously they should be given some discretion on things Like Congress gives them, but if the law actually says, you know, 10,000 advance or the amount, the max loan is 2 million, the agency has to follow the will of congress on this. And if the money runs out like that, then congress can make the decision to fill the money again. But the other thing is, also, and again, in a Perfect World all these programs would have rolled out at the same time, including the main Street Lending program, because they matched certain businesses and align, but that didnt happen. I think the other big piece looking at this is what is the sba, what is their capacity and what are they capable of doing in this regard, and where do we need to call in the private sector and use Financial Technology. Ms. Kerrigan, i only get one question before we run out of time. Im sorry. Im going on. Youre fine. When we talk about sba, i think we know a lot of government programs, one size fits all is very difficult. You alluded a little bit ago about what you think private industry could do to maybe facilitate should we see this kind of occurrence again, what the private industry could do alongside the federal government. I think you saw the power in the ppp program where it was sort of of like the traditional Banking Institutions and Financial Institutions that were initially a part of that and it took a while for the treasury to bring on fentech. But they did bring in 15,000, 20,000, to the banks that werent interfacing with and serving. So i think they need to think forward and they need to be Technology Driven and i think thats the same way with these programs as well in terms of these Public Private partnership, bringing the power of technology and looking at Financial Technology as a solution to all of this. I really think it needs to be incorporated over at the sba. Thank you. The gentlemans time has expired. Thank you. The gentleman from maine, mr. Goldman, for five minutes. Thank you very much, madam chair. You can hear me all right . Yes, we can hear you. Just wanted to make sure. Ms. Kerrigan, i wanted to ask a little bit more from you. Ive been hearing from a lot of constituents in bar harbor and auburn, maine, who would like to use an Economic Injury disaster loan right now, but theyve been shut out of the application process because theyre not agricultural businesses and i was wondering if any of your members have been finding themselves in a similar situation of late. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely, they have. Again, its disspiriting. We have farmers and members of the agricultural sector, Small Businesses that are part of sbe council. I think what the sba wanted to do was compensate for them being shut out of the program earlier, but at the same time youre shutting out whole swaths of the business sector, diverse businesses. And again it goes back to the program should be open to everyone. If it runs out of money, once we know the data and once we know where we need to go, then it can be refueled or refunded based on that. So yeah, that was sort of a little bit of the government picking winners and losers in the marketplace, although we love our farmers and our members who are farmers for sure. Certainly we do. You were talking a little bit about implementing the program the way that it is drafted in statute and then if the money runs out, you come in and make the strong case for more funding, similar to what we saw with the Paycheck Protection Program, although they obviously took a little leeway in the rule making process there as well. But i had businesses, like an independent trucker, tourism businesses in my district reach out, frustrated, feeling like they had experienced a bait and switch when the eidl was downsized in regards to the amount they could receive, but also when they were told that they were limited to 1,000 per employee on the grant side because that was part of the original reason why they were so interested in going after eidl instead of pursuing ppp in the early weeks, was knowing that that grant was going to be out there and they wanted access to some revenue as quickly as possible. I also wanted to just recognize your frustration with the repeated delays that you experienced processing your eidl application. I know in my office we heard from businesses all over the district who had a lot of similar experiences and all of you have made the point about the importance of Clear Communication so that you can at least make informed decisions, which is what ive been hearing and my staff have been hearing from businesses here in the state of maine. Often it was waiting many weeks that was the most disturbing because it delayed them from making other potential decisions and pursuing other means of surviving through this. Its not to say that these werent important programs and that they havent worked to help businesses when they have worked smoothly, but i did want to acknowledge the frustration that youve all shared and thank you for sharing it with us. I think the key point there is communication not only between sba and the committee and congress, but also sba and the ultimate client, which is the Small Business community. So thanks for taking part in this today and sharing those. Im sure i have no doubt that the sba is listening to your testimony today, making note and that theyre going to be engaging with their clients, the Business Community and the lenders for feedback how they could improve these programs Going Forward. With that, i would yield back, madam chair. Thank you. The gentleman yields back. Now we recognize the gentleman from tennessee for five minutes. Am i muted . Can yall hear me . Okay, great. Ive heard from everybody and i appreciate everybody, the excellent testimony theyve given and m3nl i also wanted to welcome our new member to the committee. I look forward ive watched him from afar and im looking forward to getting to know him. Also, ive heard whats gone wrong and ive actually heardyy constituents and im wondering if each of yall could briefly tell me what has gone right in what weve been trying to do. Maybe we can amplify some of that. Ill yield to you folks. Ill start that, congressman, and say for the businesses, the install businesses that were able to access the eidl money, theyre very grateful for that support, for that capital. I think with the ppp program, it was really good to see the pivot that was made on that in terms of making the modifications and changes that would make the program practical and relevant for Small Businesses, particularly given, you know, the extension of the shutdowns and what was happening on the ground. I mean, from our perspective, we would have loved those ppp changes to come more quickly, but they happened and thats good. So you all were listening to Small Businesses and you made those changes and i think that needs to happen over at the sba, too. But again, this was a whole Different Program and i do think now Congress Needs to look forward and say, you know, is this something that sba should be doing as an entity and do they have the capacity to do that. But look it, for the businesses that got the money and the Early Intervention on the tax credits and all those other things, those are making a big difference for Small Business. And the others . What i would say, what was done right was that congress definitely there was an emphasis on helping Small Business. It wasnt just helping individuals, it was really an attempt to help Small Businesses out there that were, no fault of their own, were shutting down or were operating at very limited capacity. Unfortunately, what seemed like a great idea, the execution did not match. And the frustration was listening to the promises and being excited about the idea and then the reality really of not being able to access the funds or not get your questions answered. But the intent was there. And i could say that, for me, what went right was unfortunately very little. What did go right was my ability to react very quickly when i saw that sba dropped the ball. We started a gofundme campaign, which actually thats what saved me. The sba money helps, sure, and i got a little bit of ppp. But i feel like giving ppp back, because how am i supposed to pay that back . Its over two years. It puts a burden on me more than its helping me. So look, i dont want to be complaining. I hear your question. What it did right was once i did get approved, my loan was delivered very quickly. That was right. But im sorry, they got so much wrong, i dont really i didnt want im so frustrated, what they got right is kind of irrelevant. Thank you. Any others . Great. Cha chair lady, thank you so much. I yield back the remainder of my time. The gentleman yields back. And now we recognize the gentlelady from california for five minutes. You need to unmute. Thank you. Ms. Sexton, as a Congress Member representing los angeles county, i thank you for sharing your experience as a los angeles business owner, a Sole Proprietor and a former creative professional. Its clear from you and the other witnesses here today that Sbas Administration of eidl has been unacceptable at a time when Small Businesses need this relief more than ever. I also imagine that many of your clients are also selfemployed individuals working in creative fields like the music industry. Like you, the Sole Proprietors, selfemployed and independent contractors constitute a significant part of southern californias economy and they have been adversely impacted by the sbas cap on eidl emergency grants of 1,000 per employee. This cap is just not reflective of congressional intent and hurts individuals like you who, despite not having employees, have high overhead costs like thousands of square feet of leased m m m m m m m m m m m m that sbas cap on the emergency grant has on Sole Proprietors, selfemployed and independent contractors like you and your clients and give us some sense of the unique burdens that these type of workers are facing during the covid19 crisis . And also, you described so many problems getting this loan. What would be your top priority in things that need to be changed in the eidl program . Well, thank you, congresswoman. Those are tricky questions a little bit, because there are so many. Out of my 120 members, weve got like 60, 70 people who have their own businesses, right . And so right away one of the things that i did, because i had so much access to Small Business assistance, because im so heavily involved in the chamber of commerce and working with, you know, a lot of different organizations, i was able to put a resource page together on my website to assist my membership. And a lot of the people were just frustrated. They would call me with the same frustrations that i was having and then i would be calling my contacts, especially those from the lasbdc, who are fantastic, and ask them to help me understand what was happening. But quite honestly, things changed so fast in the law not in the law, in the application process, that even those organizations that were helping us try to understand what was happening, they couldnt keep up. And so what happened was you would be getting an answer from somebody and have already heard that it changed and then you would just be frustrated, man, where are you, why arent you keeping up with this . Why is this burden on me . But my whole idea was, look, if i can keep these people in their positions and if i can keep them working and keep them getting money, then i can keep my business, right . Because thats what i do. I provide a work space for them. The frustrations fell in the line of general stuff, lack of communication, not knowing what was happening. Some people werent smart enough to write down that loan number and wondering, and then they would call people and the operators were misinformed, giving bad direction to people on what the next steps were. And then it falls onto look, it falls onto looking for other monies. And the ppp for me, because i dont have employees, is whatever. I mean, you look at that and im super organized, i have everything ready, and then i get nothing. And so i think the biggest thing, quite honestly, that the sba could do is just communicate, be honest with people. I need to know what i have to do, and i believe the other gentleman, mr. Gerstein, said that our bills are stacking up. Weve got rent to pay. I mean, i can extend and postpone payments, but that doesnt mean theyre going away. So what am i supposed to do . And so i really thought the eidl loan, like i said before, i thought it was going to save us. I was hoping on that. And now, if it wasnt for my gofundme, i would be out of the game. I would have to shut completely. I appreciate the fact that you talked about the sbdc in such a positive way and it seems to me that if the sba is overwhelmed in terms of being able to answer back to these loan applicants, why dont they d deputize them to be able to inform on the status of the loans . That would be a great idea. The gentlemenladys time has expired. Now we recognize the gentleman from florida for five minutes. Expired. Now we recognize the gentleman from florida for five minutes. Expired. Now we recognize the gentleman from florida for five minutes. Expired. Now we recognize the gentleman from florida for five minutes. Madam chairman, i dont see him on the call any longer. He was just there. Okay, so now dr. Joyce from pennsylvania, youre recognized. Mr. Bishop from north carolina, now you are recognized for five minutes. Certainly invite others to join me here whenever you can. I think to mr. Whack in particular, its been a bit of a disadvantage and i apologize to you for the difficulty that youve encountered. If this is the only way that you could appear before the committee, then that would be better than not being able to appear. But i certainly wish we would have been able to have you come in and sit down and not struggle over things like that. I wanted to ask, and i guess im trying to pick who. As i was listening to the conversation, it seems to me in order for this enterprise to be productive, we probably need to get beyond frustration to diagnosis and make an accurate diagnosis of the problem. The import of the hearing is not to lay blame at the sba, but i guess if dr. Gerstein is still available, maybe i could ask you. And i sympathize because ive heard it many, many times and ive actually experienced it myself when i first learned about what eidl was going to be able to do. Youve heard of the notion of putting out a fire with a garden hose, right . Sure. So if youve got a oneinch hose to put water through and youve got a big burning disastrous fire, you may not make much progress. You mentioned the uncertainty that a lot of the witnesses have and i find it to be difficult to deal with as well. But isnt it an inevitability of the nature of the problem we have, this nationwide flatlining of the economy with the shutdown orders of the entire economy, doesnt it seem that it would be hard to scale up a program thats designed for a spot hurricane or tornado would be able to operate nationwide . Im certainly not an expert in any way. How to implement policy of congress, i cant explain what the best thing is. What i can tell you is the idea of the sba giving a little bit to everybody to try to quell the disaster is no different than coming into a room where 1,000 people are dehydrated and offering them all just little sips of water hoping youre going to save somebody. It didnt do enough to enough businesses. I got that point and its a good point. And i just wonder if in the sense of your frustration that you experienced as you were going through this, either then or looking back at it now, do you think that perhaps it was just an impossibility to take sbas eidl, normal eidl program, and suddenly scale it up so it could handle that sort of task . Did that go through your mind at all . You know, part of the first come, first serve basis that was emphasized, i knew there was going to be a lot of demand, so yeah, i knew there was going to be a lot of demand. I didnt know that the infrastructure in the sba wasnt going to be able to handle it in any regard, but yeah, im not surprised. Mrs. Kerrigan, maybe to follow up in the conversation i was just having, you made reference to sba being able to scale up and you mentioned artificial intelligence. Is there some technological solution that you believe exists that you could take a program like that, that it operated on the basis i suggested, and suddenly and accurately and with efficiency scale it up to be able to handle a disaster like this and just expect the agency to be able to do that . Well, like i said, i think both in my five minutes earlier on and also in my written testimony, that we knew this was going to be huge for sba, because demand, right, we knew there was be a huge demand for this capital, and number two, sort of the limited capital that was available. And i think, congressman, that the reason why we did the ppp program was to alleviate, right, sort of alleviate. That was sort of the sister program, lets get the Financial Institutions involved. But there were two Different Programs, congressman. You had one that was very restrictive, eight weeks to use this money, as opposed to eidl, which was six months. Let me interject because ive got about 30 seconds left. I think your point is well taken, all the witnesses, but i think really what we see is the ppp program being able to bring in the private sector to leverage the government is what made a relative success for ppp. And that was not without frustration either. Exactly. So i think probably it would be helpful to decipher what lessons we should be learning as opposed to just expressing frustration and leveling it66 at the door of the sba. My time is expired. Thank you, maam. Thank you, mr. Bishop. And let me just say i welcome you for using the committee room. And i also want to thank the cleaning crew who will now have to go into the room and disinfect. I also want to recognize that many small firms are able to join us remotely to testify without undue costs or travel and im glad were able to facilitate a discussion without burdening our small employers. So with that, let me recognize mr. Evans from pennsylvania. Youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair. When the pandemic hit, and businesses across the country were devastated, especially home businesses which declined 41 from february to april, the most of any racial group. As a comparison, whiteowned businesses declined only 70 . Many if i will if i will Small Businesses have been struggling to make ends meet, which is why the Small Business administration Economic Injury disaster loan is such a lifeline. Unfortunately, many of my constituents, including mr. Whack, have been denied eidl loans because of unsatisfactory credit scores. Mr. Whack, im going to ask you three questions based on my time. Mr. Whack, what was your reaction when you received your denial letter from sba . Did sba provide you any further details on your denial such as minimum credit score inquiry, and then the c. A. R. E. S. Act, congressman indicated that sba may use the application, credit score or alternative methods to determine the applicants ability to repay. Did sba indicate they used any methods other than the credit score, mr. Whack . Can you hear me, congressman . Yes. Part of what ive been when i finally did get the letter, there was no other reason other than the unsatisfactory credit report, nor was there any way in that letter that i could have addressed that. How about if there was in any Credit History that i could have corrected or explained or whatever. It was just like something i thoroughly did not anticipate, and other than contacting your office, i really had no alternatives. What was i supposed to do . So they didnt tell you in the c. A. R. E. S. Act, congress indicated that sba may used the applicants credit score or alternative, they didnt say that to you, right . I never heard that. It wasnt stated. And i pay very close attention to the news, cnn, msnbc and other printed material, and i was following this to see that when i was going to apply i had everything that i needed to do this properly and i was just unprepared for this. Thats the best way to put it to you. I had no notion that they were going to use your credit score as a basis for accepting or denying an applicant a loan. So mr. Whack, can you explain all the costs you are now paying yourself, including reimbursement from benefits, patients that can not afford their prescription . As i stated earlier, its particularly bad because pharmacy is such a difficult field now in terms of the hmos, in terms of you need an inventory, which means you go to a wholesaler. The wholesalers now are ratcheting down. My competitors, cvs, they dont have wholesalers. I go to a middle person to purchase prescription drugs. Rite aid, cvs, they have their own warehouse. They go directly to medco or smith klein or whoever. Its put me through tremendous stress, because now the wholesalers, when you fall behind in this industry, they put you on cod. Can you imagine trying to be cod with one weeks invoices could be 16,000, 18,000, 20,000. Thats particularly stressful and i have no real alternatives to deal with this. The wholesalers who supply us with the things we need to do our job are understanding, but it is a business, after all. Theyre not going to cont j hajo extend courtesy or forbearance for any great length of time. Thats the other part of my anxiety. I dont know at what point someone is going to call and say, listen, this is it, you cant order any more. What am i supposed to do then . Real quick, ms. Sexton, you applied for the eidl loan and received much more than you requested. Did sba explain why you received a lesser amount . Absolutely not. No explanations were given. Youre literally just put in a position where you accept an amount and thats that. And its a real problem. I yield back, madam chairperson and i thank you for your leadership on Small Businesses and everything youve done. So wherever you want to meet, im going to be there. Thank you. And let me again call on dr. Joyce from pennsylvania. Is he on . Okay, so now we recognize the gentleman from illinois, mr. Schneider. Thank you, madam chairwoman and i want to thank the witnesses for sharing your perspectives and experiences. This is obviously a difficult time for everyone and for Small Businesses in particular as the witnesses have highlighted so well today. The anxiety of trying to keep your doors open and trying to figure out how youre just going to make it through this and to overlay that, as you have so eloquently shared, with the uncertainty, it was wonderful. As you have attested very well, the sbas Economic Injury disaster loan, the eidl program, is a vital lifeline for businesses in a crisis and it has been in the past and it should have been that during this covid pandemic. But it only works if the sba gets the money out the door. The program can be useful for businesses in planning for longterm future in the midst of a crisis and its necessary and should have happened that we give these owners the information they need, like the status of their loan application, when they can get the money theyre counting on, and allow them to make the difficult decisions if money is not going to be available. More than a month ago, i led a letter with chairwoman velazquez, joined by 100 members of the house to the sba outlining our concerns, calling on them to create a queue for new applicants and update on loan status. Unfortunately, these issues still remain unaddressed. Dr. Gerstein, i appreciate you sharing your voice as a Small Business owner from our community here in illinois and im glad that Small Business webinars that i and my team organized helped navigate the process and that our case workers could be a resource to you. But the detailed timeline you laid out, the long periods of no information from the sba, was not unique and was incredibly frustrating. I feel badly for what you were facing, and as you and i talked about, we saw it with so many other businesses around our district. I cant imagine what it was like living through this time as a business owner. As you said and said very well, uncertainty kills businesses. Without updated information on loan status, contrary to being a resource, the eidl program, the way it was administered became a hindrance in achieving longterm planning because Business Owners didnt know what they could rely upon. If you would, please, as you were working through the process you were also navigating the world of uncertainty that comes from operating a business during a pandemic. How did the lack of information hamper your ability to make the longterm plans for your business . Well, it paralyzed us, quite frankly. I didnt know going through this process, with the initial description it was three weeks and then five to seven days that you would receive the income. And after three weeks and then four weeks, we just didnt know what to do or if i needed to look for capital elsewhere or not, would that have been a waste of time. And then i was behind the line of all the people who went that different avenue. So it was quite paralyzing and i was really kind of mired with the sba and just at their beck and call to see what was going to happen. And mr. Whack, ms. Sexton, was your experience similar . Can you hear me . I can. My experience was very similar and i would best characterize it as traumatic. I mean, ive been on pins and needles trying to keep things afloat, keep going and hoping and when i got the answer, it was no, but it was just so vague and such a strange response. I just wasnt ready for this. Im sorry, i only have a minute left, so ms. Sexton, you laid it out beautifully in your written testimony about how much stress this was. Yeah, i mean of course, of course. I mean, i have to literally i have to close my largest location and thats going to take out twothirds of my income, twothirds of my business that i created after four years of busting and making that happen. So dr. Gerstein, the other thing we talked about is the arbitrary cap at 150,000. How has that impacted your planning for the future . At this point now im looking at alternative as expects for capital. I did send a letter with documentation to the sba. Im still to this date waiting to hear from them and see if im going to be granted more income. But now i have to look at Different Programs from banks and other aspects in order to try to just keep us going until we get back to normal. Got it. And my time is expired, or i would ask, madam chairwoman, one of the things i think we also have to explore is why did the sba think it was prudent did not disclose information about changing policies, why did they not give an alert that they were running behind. The greatest frustration sitting in an airport is when they dont tell you why your plane is delayed. Thats an inconvenience. Delayed in these other things is devastating for these businesses. Thats why its so important that we have them come before the committee and we expect for them to comply with our requests. I look forward to that. The time of the gentleman has expired. Now we are going to recognize dr. Joyce from pennsylvania. I believe hes on the phone. Dr. Joyce . So now we will recognize the gentleman from new york for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair. Let me thank you for the great work, the lifesaving work that youre doing as a committee leader. When i testified before the committee as a member of the committee, i said that Small Businesses were mad as hell, and i was mad as hell. Im sorry to report to you, madam chair, that theyre still mad as hell, because the ppp program originally was a disaster. You did great work, madam chair, in carving out the 60 billion so that the money will go to Credit Unions and local banks, which i think have a longstanding, great relationship with Small Businesses. But we saw how the traditional banks favor their prestige customers and some of them had to shamefully return the money back. So this 60 billion that you a lotted was very helpful, however its not enough. And of course now we see how this credit score business is being introduced. If you have a plus credit, if you can meet payroll, if you have liquidity and you have excess capital, the bank comes to you. You dont need to go to the bank. You go to the bank when your credit is hurting, when youre hurting to make payroll, youre squeezing by, when you have no money to expand and you have very little collateral. Thats when you go to the bank. So if the bank is shutting you out then, then were in trouble. Now, i know that were going to need to do far more with Small Businesses, madam, chair, and i know your heart is in the right place. I worked with an internationally acclaimed chef based in dc but is originally from the bronx, from webster avenue in the bronx, hes won the most prestigious award for a chef. Hes a young guy, i believe right under 30 years old. He has an independent group, an association of restaurants. Restaurants, which in many cases are define the character and reputation of a neighborhood. They all go to a particular restaurant in east harlem, washington heights, in red hook, madam chair, your neighborhood, across the country, because they define those neighborhoods. They are hurting and these businesses are marginal businesses that really work on a profit thats very tight to begin with. In fact, most of them just make their money at the bar. So i think that were going to have to allot a specific amount of money to restaurants so we can save them and i think there are certain businesses where were going to have to be laser focused to rescue. I think the independent restaurant association, which has a great number of very good restaurants and that provide thousands of jobs to people from all over the country, were going to need to really help out and allot some specific money to them so theyll be able to open. Most of them are going to open. Theyre going to do it on the sidewalk. But no one is going to rush back to a crowded restaurant, so their income is going to be limited, and unfortunately unless we help them many of them will close and, as a result, well lose hundreds of thousands of jobs. So i want to thank the chef, who is a young rising star. Hes right there at the wharf in washington, d. C. Hes like a guy thats leading the movement for that business. And there are other businesses that i think face the same kind of challenges. So madam chair, were going to have to go back to the drawing board and really do better for Small Business. Thank you for your work and i yield back the remaining part of my time. The gentleman yields back. And with that, were coming to an end for this hearing. I want to take the opportunity to thank all the members for participating in such an important oversight hearing, and i want to thank all our Witnesses Today for their testimony and for offering the main street view of the sba eidl program by sharing your experiences with us today, we will be able to conduct more effective oversight and continue to optimize the eidl program. We have heard some rather troubling issues in your testimonies and i assure you we will be following up with sba on each one. I ask unanimous consent that members have five legislative days to submit supporting materials for the record. Without objection, so ordered. And if theres no further business before the committee, we are adjourned. Thank you. During the summer months, reach out to your elected officials with cspans congressional directory. It contains all the Contact Information you need to stay in touch with members of congress, federal agencies and state governors. Order your copy online today at cspanstore. Org. This week watch house votes on policing reform and dc statehood legislation, thursday at 10 00 a. M. Eastern, live on cp. On friday at 9 00 a. M. Eastern, live on cspan the house will vote on legislation to sdeg nature the district of columbia as a state. Watch this week live thursday and friday on cspan, online at cspan. Org or listen on the radio app. First ladies, influence and ige