Panel, the a b. A. Annual Meeting Forum on justice and policing. A path forward with senator tim scott of South Carolina. Thank you senator scott, so very much, its a privilege to have you join us for this program at the ap a annual meeting. Thank you maam and thank you for your leadership. Without any question, americas better for folks because a folks by yourself with strong positions. Thank you for making the investment to make a difference. Thank you sir. Senator scott, what do you see is the role of congress and improving police and Community Relations and bridging the gap of trust, particularly with communities of color across our nation. I think Congress Plays a role in that. Even a significant role. But perhaps the most Important Role is the one on the local level. The mayors and the county chairman or chair women, those folks have the most direct path for Police Reform. Not those of us in congress. Ive share this story several times, i have been stopped by officers 18 times in the last 20 years. Seven times in one year as an elected official. All of my 18 stops were either by city, county or state Law Enforcement. Never by federal Law Enforcement officers. So, while we know the president ial election is very important and this one is another important one, the truth is that your election for your mayor a lot of citizens dont participate in those elections, for your city council members, those folks are in direct positions of power to determine what kind of Law Enforcement you have. When you dont vote in those elections, we are actually taking a step back from the one place where Police Reform comes to life immediately in your cities. We will do all that we can. Ive worked on legislation, bipartisan legislation. Im having great conversations with the chairwoman of the congressional black caucus. Were looking for the sweet spot and common ground. In the last few days, ive spoken with family members whose brothers died at the hand of Law Enforcement. We want to see something done. The more i spoke with the family of the victims, the more they kept saying thats a local issue. It really is, in a very big way, local issues. Were going to continue to play a prominent role because we must, but our ability to ban chokeholds is on the federal level. We can only induce or encourage behavior by what we do with grant dollars. Thats an important part, but its less than 5 of the average departments revenue stream. So thats an important part of the equation. If i paid the entire picture, especially as someone who has felt discrimination at the hands of Law Enforcement, its really important for us to recognize that most of that is a local decision. There have been calls to defund the police. When you hear that term, defund the police, what does it mean to you . Do you think its appropriate to examine how resources are distributed to communities . I certainly think its important for us to examine how resources are distributed, but the concept of defunding the police is the scariest thought ive ever heard of as it relates to communities of color and the vulnerable communities. I hosted several weeks ago, a roundtable discussion with African American leaders throughout South Carolina and attorney general barr. The one consensus in the room was lets not defund the police, but lets talk about a better strategy of having Police Respond. A couple of ideas that they came out of the room was consistent with the executive order that came out of the administration. One was coresponders. The eighth importance of having Mental Health experts responding to homelessness and Mental Health episodes. Responding to issues of addiction. Those are places where Law Enforcement agencies should have health Mental Health care experts as a part of their team, so when theyre responding to these unique and specific circumstances, that they are responding with the type of expertise that is necessary to prevent an escalation of force when possible. I will say it this way. You are too young to remember these days, but in the eighties we had six or 700,000 additional beds for Mental Health patients than we do today. I think that has a Significant Impact on what we are asking our officers to do today. If we could find a way to embed within the response, Mental Health experts, we might walk away with a lot of lives saved. Do you think consideration should be given to altering or limiting or even removing the immunity currently enjoyed by Law Enforcement across the country . And do you believe that congress will act to address qualified immunity . I just had conversations with family members about this specific issue. When i say family members, i mean family members of the deceased who lost their lives at the hand of Law Enforcement. What i told them was that theres two ways to take a look at qualified immunity. One way is, is there a way for us to provide recourse and restitution to the extent possible for the life that was lost . That, im all on board. Lets figure out how to make it more punitive for cities, municipalities and departments in counties. Even for states. To be responsible for the actions of their officers. At the same time, if we want to continue to recruit and attract highly talented and highly motivated character driven officers, you have to protect that officer and their personal possessions from those lawsuits. To the extent possible. The core threshold that we have, i think i would support, but i would also make it easier for families to us receive restitution and recourse by making it easier for them to sue cities and departments and or counties or states. How do you see the role in solving the crisis in confidence and Law Enforcement. Are you confident you can make a difference and how would you go about doing so so we can move to a better place in this country as we must do . Yes maam. I think im a part of the team that can make a difference. I hope that i have made a difference. One of the things that we dont spend a lot of time talking about, and i cant figure out why, is how do we break the cycle . Nearly a third of African American boys will have had some type of negative interaction with Law Enforcement and or incarceration. The keys to that, from everything that ive studied, education and poverty. Breaking those cycles should be a robust part of our conversations as we look to address the issue of social justice. Other things ive been working on for five years frankly. I started this conversation after walter scott, in making sure that we provide enough resources for body cameras because i know personally that, had not been for the miracle of a bystander recording the incident where walter scott was shot in the back five times, had not been for that camera, none of us would have never second guessed a Police Report there have been falsified to protect a police officer. Thats a situation we have to overcome as quickly as possible. One of the ways we do that is by putting as much pressure and force on the system to change. Being in the position and having lived in that same community, ive taken it as a personal odyssey for more funding on body cameras and working on legislation and has passed the senate. Legislation like antilynching bills. Continuing to bring record breaking levels of funding to historically black colleges as ive done the past two years. Theres a lot of things we can do and that we should do that i dont think is directly connected to Law Enforcement. But its absolutely connected to the pipeline of justice. If i want to reduce the number of incidents that people of color are having in the Justice System, i need to break that cycle as early as possible. Senator scott, thank you so very much for being with us. We very much appreciate the time you spent with us today. Now i will turn it back over to joey jackson and our esteemed panel who will discuss your thoughts as well as their observations regarding policing in america and the path forward. Thank you so very much, sir. Yes maam, thank you as well, have a great day. Welcome to justice and policing, a path forward. My name is joey jackson, im an attorney. We have a lot of discs to discuss. We are in very trying in difficult times. Those trying and difficult times have been brought about by what weve seen as injustice is with our own eyes. Theyve occurred primarily with police and involving people of color. Were in a situation where i think people have come to the conclusion that enough is enough and they are looking for a path forward that are ripe with reform and the issue of equality. That these things are done in a way that treats all people of all races in a very equal way. In a sound and respectful way. Country are protestsross this everywhere. Those protests consists of people who are of all colors. I think that goes to the issue that people know what they see is wrong and that it needs to be altered. It needs to be reformed. Today, as we gather to have this very important discussion, it was very appropriate and felt very important that we bring about a Diverse Group of people on this panel that could address the perspective from a core perspective, police perspective, a political perspective, so we can get to the root cause of the issue. Not only the problem is, but also discuss solutions. Discussing moving forward. Discussing, in this time of opportunity, we see a crossroads now. What measures will be put in place so that people who have hyde died at the hands of the police who can have it legacy. That legacy will be that perhaps future lies can be changed. Perhaps policing, again, could be brought to a situation where there can be a gap bridge between communities and police. Moving forward, that it can be done in a more compassionate way, or in a way that acknowledges and represents that we have to Work Together. We have to Work Together in a way that respects everyones rights and respects the rights of black and brown people across this country. And doing so and putting together this panel, it was a Dynamic Panel indeed, that was brought together from across section of people who bring a wealth of knowledge and experience. I will start in introducing judge susan morgan. She is a Federal District court judge in louisiana. She will be introducing herself momentarily. No stranger to this issue at all. Presiding over decrees, having knowledge, information and understanding about the process as it relates to policing and what the extent of those decrees does. What the effectiveness are. What it looks like moving forward. So it is a pleasure and privilege to have her here. We also have tracy birch. Doctor tracey birch. Professor tracey birch. She brings an academic perspective. A perspective of wisdom. A perspective of having to teach people and speak to people and flesh out these issues in the classroom. To develop and work with bright minds going forward, which will perhaps bring further meaning and dialog to this discussion of how we fix a broken system. Of course, we know that we had commissioner Michael Harrison here as well. A person who has been in the trenches on this issue. Whos rose among the ranks. Whos been a model of excellence and example in issues of policing. Who is formally in louisiana, and then of course, is now in baltimore as the 41st Police Commissioner. We will also be joined later by senator scott. He certainly brings a political perspective to this. The senator working on legislation and reform. Hopefully, the senate will get together with the house. We look forward to speaking with him as well. Just to get into this panel, i would like for each of the panelists to say hello and introduce themselves and speak to the issue of why this is such an important issue and how we move forward in a better way. Judge, if we can start with you. Im smart enough to know that we always start with the judge. Take it away. Im a Federal District court judge in new orleans. I had a civil practice until 2012 when i was appointed to the bench by president barack obama. About four months later, i got assigned the New Orleans Police Department specialty case. Im coming up on eight years of working that Consent Decree. Ive learned a lot about policing and Police Reform. I definitely see a role for Consent Decrees to play and Police Reform in our country. Its not the only way, but it is one way that i have found to be very effective. Thank you so very much judge. Professor burch, if we can turn to you. Hi, thank you so much joey. I am professor of Political Science and also a Research Professor at the american bar foundation. One of the major issues that i research is criminal justice and the political effects of criminal justice on participation. Im currently working on a project that examines how and when people respond politically through voting for protesting and the like to policing. Im happy to be here. We are happier that you are here. Then of course, commissioner harrison. Professor also, because he knows this stuff inside and out. Commissioner. Thank you joey. Thank you for having me. Im so honored to be a part of this panel. Especially to be joined by judge morgan who i had the pleasure of working with for four and a half years. I got my start with the New Orleans Police Department and spent 28 years there. Then in 2014, i was asked to take the lead as police superintendent. Going into the second year of a federally mandated Consent Decree and then serving the department for four and a half years as the superintendent, taking it through the various stages of compliance, i was very blessed to be asked to take a lead at the baltimore Police Department. I said yes to that. Then i moved to baltimore two years into its Consent Decree in 2019. So here i am participating in my second major city Police Department under federal Consent Decree. Its about making reform and transforming the department into a department that the citizens have asked for. Im honored to be among your panelists. If i could start with you in just having the discussion, i know youre in the hot seat. Your reputation precedes itself. Youve done tremendous things. Were in such a difficult time commissioner. Police are in a tough way now. Police are being blamed for a lot. We are in a difficult place. From my perspective, i want to make it clear that communities need police and police made communities. Knowing that, we know police some police may run afoul and serve as a lightning rod for the ire of the community. Since were looking at a path moving forward, how do we get our hands around this problem . Is it a Community Policing issue . Is it a training issue . Is it a recruitment issue . What is the issue and how do we make it better . It is all of the above. You pointed it out. It is everything from how we recruit to how we hire and who we train. How we create policies that support that training which turns into positive police performance. Joey, i heard you Say Community enforcement. I like to say we are not different than the community, we are a part of the community. In my professional opinion, there is no distinction between police and community. We are a part of the community we serve. Everything we do that breaks the trust and breaks the relationship between the police and community, were actually doing it to ourselves. Not just the community, but were harming ourselves because we are a part of that community. Its everything that we do. Every single policy, the way we perform, the way we engage in the way we enforce. The way we treat people with dignity and respect, and that our policies should support that everyone is treated with dennis dignity, respect and equity. That is what a Consent Decree is. It is designed, in new orleans as it is in baltimore, to transform the department to do all of those things so that we are looking for the right people who have the right temperament and the right will to do this work. Who will be engaging and endearing and compassionate. Tough on crime, soft on people. Very well said, commissioner. You bring up the issue of Consent Decree. Church morgan, if i could pivot to you on the issue as a person who knows so much about that issue. I guess i would ask view, what can we expect with regard to Consent Decrees . Are they effective . Could they be effective . How do you in your judicial role oversee them in a way to ensure that things are made better . I will start by talking about why we have Consent Decrees. The 1994 crime bill gets criticize often because increased penalties and increased incarceration. A very good thing that it did is empowered the doj to initiate pattern and practice investigations in Police Departments to determine whether they are engaging in patterns or practices that are unlawful. Not only are they empowered to investigate, but they are empowered to resolve those situations. What that means is that they can attempt to negotiate a Consent Decree with a city or department, what if they cant negotiate, they can actually file suit against the department. Fortunately, most departments, if presented with a doj investigation, agreed to a Consent Decree. Thats a regular suit. It becomes an order of the court in federal court. Then the judges play a part in helping the city implement that Consent Decree. A big part of it is that courts typically hire a Monitoring Team to help them. Its not something a judge can do on her own. Thats a very big part of it. Ive been very active actively engaged. Because what you need is someone who can bring parties together. When you get met with the response of, why are we doing it that way . Because thats the way weve always done it. I say, well its not the way were always doing it anymore. I can help move forward. The citys goal is to reach the terms of the Consent Decree and working towards completing all the agreements and getting out from under federal court supervision. A way to do that is coming into full appliance of the Consent Decree. I have to be clear with them about what is going to take to find them in compliance and then monitoring to help them get them there. Judge, this is a followup before i get to doctor burch. When you have these Consent Decrees, how effective, in terms of implementation, are you finding them . What do you have as frustrations in terms of making sure that there is compliance . Making sure they are adequately employment did. How does that work . One of the frustrations is taking it so long. Ive been doing this eight years. Its not easy. Consent decrees like new orleans and baltimore are very comprehensive. Our Consent Decree is 120 pages and 429 paragraphs. It covers everything its very comprehensive. Its recruiting, hiring, training, policies, supervision, transparency, its very comprehensive. I believe it has really transformed the New Orleans Police Department. At the beginning, there is a learning and growing stage before you really hit your stride. Once they get into it, i think the Police Departments embrace it. It becomes part of who they are and they want to be a Better Police force. They want to follow the best practices and to be progressive and effective. That is where we are in the New Orleans Police Department at this point. We have accomplished what many people are calling for a Police Reform in the country right now. Deescalation training, crisis intervention training, teaching officers how to deal with Substance Abuse and Mental Illness problems in a way that is more appropriate. Only using the amount of force necessary. Giving warnings before using force. All those many things that people are calling for, new orleans has already done that. In our Consent Decree, we are well along the way, but were not quite there. It seems to me that you have to put all of these things into play. We had to start with policy. Then we had to go to training. Then we have to go to implementation. Then we had to go to discipline if people dont follow the policies. We put all of those things in play. Were now nearing the end where some theres some difficulties such as ensuring that those reforms are sustained when the Consent Decree is over. Also ensuring effective supervision. I think thats a difficult thing to teach and put into place. Another topic were working with is, how do you establish that your arrest is constitutional and bias free . The good news is that the New Orleans Police Department does not get a lot of complaints based on bias. Of any kind. Thats still not enough to convince us that we are sure we resolve that problem. New orleans is doing something its the First Department that has done it and i think other departments can emulated. Weve developed ways to audit arrests that are deemed unconstitutional. We will take a representative sample of all the stops and a combination of monitors, the doj and other officers are going to look at those stops. They look at the Police Reports and the feel interview card, which is a car that it identifies each person involved in the stock. Then, look at the body worn cameras. Looking at all those things on a random basis, we can determine whether there was any bias in those stops. Whether any of these talks were unconstitutional. We can find out that, even if people are not reporting them as complaints, are they happening . Im looking forward to doing that and then sharing it with other departments. We try to figure out a way to audit it and realized that we could not find where anyone else had done this before. Chief harrison, will let you know how it goes. You are on the front lines of this for sure judge. Just to have such an instrumental role at such an instrumental time is so compelling. I want to get back to the commissioner about the gritty details that you raised with consent degrees. However, i want to go to doctor burch first. You deal with the research of the issues and the study of the issues and having to talk to them and threw them. The literature involved. What are the broader issues for how we can take and grandpa our hands around this issue . How we can move it forward and reach police where there is a Greater Trust and not such a big disconnect between communities and police . And the literature and policy communities, there is at least two different avenues through which people are trying to institute reform. The first weve already talked about and that is to change the quality and character of contacts between the police and the public. Making sure we provide departments and individual officers with incentives as well as the training that they need to make sure their contacts with the public, whether its a stop or unrest, goes according to the requirements of the constitution and civil rights. That includes things like training and funding and recruitment, but it also includes better data and observation and surveillance of officers and departments at various levels. The second set of policies involves the quality and the content of the context with police. You can also then reduce the overall number of contacts between police and public altogether. One very prominent example of that happening would be the stopandfrisk in new york city. Thats a Police Policy where police were instituting contact with citizens on a regular basis. Reducing those contacts is one policy that might, in some sense, reduce the opportunities for things to go wrong. You can kind of fit most of the solutions that are on the table right now. Doctor, with regard to the whole contact issue with the contact with the police, it brings up another issue that i will pivot to the commissioner if i can to address it. Its a loaded issue. It relates to defunding the police. It means Different Things to different people. Some people may have the perspective means we get rid of the Police Departments and crime runs rampant. Or maybe it means as the doctor eludes to when we talk about contact, that maybe plea should not be directing traffic. Maybe they should be interacting with the homeless, with people that have Substance Abuse problems. Maybe there is a way of funding the the police to redirect resources socially to let those who are more inclined and better trained to do them to do them. We get to the issue of defunding. What are your thoughts . Is there a place for reducing Police Budgets and reducing and redistributing in a way for the people who are more apt to deal with issues in the last. We expect an awful lot of police, when things go poorly we blame police. But you guys are doing it an awful lot. The final thing i will say commissioner, this area of covid, we want pleased to make sure you are Wearing Masks or not. Make sure that you are six feet, not five feet. A lot is happening. Is this a time where we can have a conversation about the funding. Do you think it is too loaded . Are there other alternatives that we can perhaps not less in the contact in the police, but make it so that contact with the police is not as negative. Police are always telling people what to do. I dont know, i dont have the answer. I turn to you, commissioner. It is a loaded conversation. But we have been asked to be all things to all people. And now that has turned into now making Police Respond to things instead of others who would be better suited to handle it. We had our city council cut off the budget two weeks ago 22 million dollars. And it eliminated three specialized units and i had to put those people back into patrol, and it qatar overtime significantly. And so while were 700 officers short, the overtime was a surplus to create an overflow so we can feel like we have a surplus of officers at our disposal. So that our Response Time will be good. That will have a negative impact on the way that we are able to perform our daily function. That is not necessarily all bad, but it makes us have to manage our resources very well. Does it mean move that extra money to someone else that is better suited to handle it . I use the analogy of buildings. Yes, other people are supposed to be doing it, but in building a stadium, the where have you ever torn down a stadium. Stop playing the game. Build a new stadium and then resume playing. What we do is, responds to build a new stadium while we continue playing in the old stadium and then at some point transition to a new stadium and then tear the old stadium down. I give you that analogy because we are asked to be all things to all people. I have great concerns, as do other Police Chiefs across the country, if we are being cut and transitioning part of our work to people that are better suited to handle it, are they able to handle it right now to the level that were performing it. Are those entities even built, are they ready to take what we are handing them. In many cases it is not. We are going to cut some of the work of other people, on childrens programs, preventative programs, intervention programs, that is great. But are they ready to produce the outcome today . That is a great concern. I am concerned about that gap that is created, whether those services are rendered. The thing that we want to handle it is not yet readily handled. We fully understand defunding, being good stewards over the taxpayer dollars, my concern is are we creating that and minimizing services and taking something from the people who are used to getting it and not socializing it well enough while we cut it from the police and someone else will not get paid. Absolutely. Before going back to judge morgan, could i just ask you, defunding is a loaded issue. People having their thoughts about the funding, what it means, could it be proper. Is there a role for defunding the police . What do you see that role as being . Is there a way to effectively redistribute those resources so that police are not all things to all people. No one can be that. How do we move that matter forward in a way that we can have the discussion . And more importantly, that the discussion could lead to effective results for communities throughout the country. Well, one of the things that i teach my students, i start my modules on policing but asking a simple question. Often the answers are pretty funny, but what is it that police do . By the time that we have about 30 things on the board, it is just amazing the variety of things that we have from articles from calls for police to getting people when they are overdosing, if aliens attacks, there is just a long list that we expect police to do. One of the things that i find interesting in respect to criminal justice, it is not just police, they are the First Responders and the first line of defense. But we have calls here in cook county, our sheriff has been very vocal about the fact that the Cook County Jail has become an institution and he thinks that not the role that that their institution should be playing and are not equipped to handle. I think that even if we took one of these issues of Mental Health, we have defunded a lot of the other Community Supports and services that it needs to or in order to help people. And we leave the criminal Justice System as the last line of defense. So increasing funding and staffing and resources in the community that needs them, that will take time and investment. I think people are ready now to make that investment, but people in Law Enforcement have been dealing with it for years. Without question. Judge morgan, if i can turn back to you, we talked about consent degrees which are extraordinarily important and more important to have someone like you presiding over them to ensure that theyre implemented properly. Is that another judicial role that you see, that the judiciary could have in the whole bridging the gap issue. I know you sit on the bench, there is a lot of pressing issues that come before you. But what is the judicial role in perhaps having, the whole addressing police issue, is it limited to consent degrees. Are there other things the judiciary could or should be doing . I know theres other issues that come before you like qualified immunity. But what can the judiciarys role be . Or is it just making sure consent degrees or carried out appropriately and effectively . I think the most direct role and most effective is the federal judge in the defense decree. Of course not every city is not going to have a Consent Decree. There are just too many Police Departments across the country for that to be done. Of course there are also many Police Departments who are not subject to the decree, who can have their own Reform Efforts, i think this little more difficult because it will get the resources that they need. I can help them get the resources to put the reform into place. Unfortunately, i dont see a big role for federal judiciary other than that. What we see is consequences that police have of Police Misconduct and takes on Excessive Force and then we are dealing with them and they are not as productive and positive. I did want to say about defunding issue, i think the Police Department is not flush with cash. Many departments do not have the resources they need. I had to help new orleans because they were under the decree, but there are many situations where police have to respond where you need log forsman officers. Many of the calls that deal with Substance Abuse or Mental Illness are volatile, dangerous situations. You do need the police to respond, you cant send social worker out alone, but there are other situations where others may more qualified. The eighth district in new orleans, the french quarter, has gotten a grant to work with homeless advocates, and they have people who are on the streets and one way to deal would be to send the police out and pick them up and put them in jail. Instead, they have someone that they can call to go and help that person to find housing and other social services. In my experience, the police are eager and would love to have more of that help. We i just have not seen that there is really room in the budget to take money way from the police and redirect it, i think theyre going to have to divert more resources to those services. Without question. There is a lot of needs out there. On the issue of those needs the question becomes a our police adequately funded to get a cut to redistribute them in the first instance. Perhaps they should be redistributed perhaps if they are not we can look to other sources of revenue. Maybe youll have to rule on these issues, but i wanted to get back to the vile tell issue of Police Contact with members of the community. Oftentimes that contact could go awry, so judge, without addressing it to you, why dont i dress it with the commissioner first. The issue of qualified immunity. Whether or not we may see legislation in the future that eliminates qualified immunity. That perhaps pinks police more accountable with respect to at least civilly, monetary, without perhaps having qualified immunity serve as a shield. There are instances where police cant that shield cant be pierced. I wanted to address with you, what are you seeing, not only with regard to that your concerns about the potential elimination or the pullback of qualified immunity and whether that would be problematic or helpful. What do you see with that . I think many of the chiefs across america, and the executives, chiefs, sheriffs, commissioners or whatever the title is, we all know what reform has to happen. The reform has to be transformation. We have been in constant communication in talking about qualified immunity. I think all of us or at least many of us are in agreement with that. That is the one thing, aside from all the other reforms we have to make, that probably concerns most of us most of the time. Without that, there could be a sense from Police Officers that they are unprotected, and that their entire family could be negatively affected financially. There could be a mass exodus from the profession, and there could be a slowdown of recruitment and hiring into the profession. I think that is the one thing that we have not fully come to agree on, to support. How could we create some level of reform that has high levels of accountability and transparency without having this negative effect as a mass exodus. Or this total vulnerability of police at any time for any state. Thats the concern. We hear from our officers and we are talking to each other, we want reform, it is deserved, thats the one thing that keeps us up a little bit more than the other issue. Before i transition to you, i want to respond to the commissioner. What i wanted to go with you with and think about for a minute, maybe the top three things that you see that we can really get our arms around this divides. If this panel we are looking at issues and how we can address it moving forward, i would come to our researcher and professor and what are the top things you see in having this discussion with the commissioner, i can imagine that there are a lot of sheriffs or chiefs or commissioners, people who are presiding over Police Departments. This discussion of qualified immunity. The discussion between what reforms are appropriate, meaningful, what are not. I know we are looking at that. I think it is important to talk about qualified immunity that might allow more of a civil compensation for people who are injured at the hands of the police. In addressing that they should know that qualified immunity may not mean that the officer, him or that their family is taken, or their sued, perhaps theres a place for a legislative fix. Im not advocating one thing over the other, just raising the issue about a legislative fix that could potentially not pierce the officers directly, but allow the municipality to be capable of the financial burden. And have people compensated for Police Misconduct. I want to be clear, my dad was a police officer. He wanted me to be a police officer. I had other ideas. I respect what the police do. We need the police. Please need communities and i am not screaming, get rid of the police. Police are bad. But those that do bad things need to be held accountable. That is the place i come from. Im just allowing you to respond that perhaps there is a place for municipalities to be liable without individual officers. During my time in new orleans there is a number of lawsuits. And i was present with him when there were major payouts for things that happened at the hands of Police Officers that embarrass the city over a number of years. I think that happens in most places already it certainly happened here in baltimore, in mitigation and settlements of that nature and people take the city to court all the time. Some win and some lose. I think that already existed. The question is how do we create more accountability, more transparency and more reform from where we were to where we need to be. One that makes the community satisfied with the level of reform. Without question. And doctor, if i could just come back to you on the issue that i raised about what you think of the top things we need to do and then i want to transition to the judge about the federal role and what the federal government can do to help and assist in this issue. If you are comfortable speaking about that, if not we will transition to Something Else. Doctor, before judge morgan weighs in, what can we do . We are in a desperate place. You study this, you know it, you are passionate about it, you teach a course on law and race and police. Help us out. Where are we going . And what do we need to absolutely do to get our hands around this. I think that in general we have in our society spent too little on the needs of people and policing aside, i think sometimes that can just be a symptom of a larger problem. So like i said, perhaps spending more money to help people in need so that we are not in a situation where society and people get so desperate that they are in their worst. That they come to a situation whether they are at their worst. Thinking about some of the other problems that we face like the Opioid Crisis or other kind of crises, getting a handle on those will begin to necessarily reduce contact in a negative ways that may be beneficial. The second issue i think, we touched on quite a bit on this, which is to think about accountability. Accountability can range from making changes to qualified immunity and also changing policies within departments about how they hold officers accountable internally. And also hiring practices within and across departments with respect to who gets promoted, who doesnt, who can get a job in other jurisdictions once they have done something or no longer employed in another jurisdiction. Accountability is not just qualified immunity, it happens on a number of fields that we can investigate. We have actually done quite a few reforms already. Some of which at the federal level i think has gone in and out. But thinking about the use of military and other military weapons on civilians, and providing those to the departments, and what levels we are comfortable with providing those weapons as a society. All of those things are issues that are on the table that we have already had those conversations among policy makers and we should continue to do that. Without question. Judge morgan, to the extent you feel comfortable, what else can we do at the federal level . I was shocked to learn that theres not a database as it relates to, police makes conduct, shootings. What role, if any, do you see . Or do you think this is better left to the local Police Officials and local Law Enforcement to the extent that were speaking about with contact thats where local contact occurs. I think theres a couple things a d. O. J. Can do, one, the pattern and practices of the investigation. Also to help Police Department that want to reform without a full pattern investigation and a consent degree and the d. O. J. Does not do grants to local policedepartment that could help them revise their policy and improve their training and accountability. That is a way that d. O. J. Does do some grants but they could do more, they help departments to some degree. Another thing that has to be done on a National Basis is a registry for officers to have a serious misconduct complaint or be terminated because local or state if they cant do it on a local or state level, people applying for jobs as Police Officers move all over the country from Police Department need a safe reliable way to find out whether an applicant has been terminated from another Police Department were serious use of force complaint, those are the things that can be done nationally. I think those are huge. Commissioner i turn to you and get personal for minute, not too personal but i have to ask you, youre a guy who went from one extreme to another, did such tremendous things in new orleans and then you came into baltimore and things were pretty hot, i want to ask you from a personal perspective, how did you deal with that, how did you instill trust in the committee, how did you let officers know that you protect them and have their back but at the same time have expectations that they will do their job and not impede upon peoples rights, how has the experience been and how have you been able to navigate because it mustve been a political bombshell it was certainly tough. I split my time between hearing from officers by day and the concerns of the officers and then by evening, my first night was with the Community Meetings, we have nine Police Districts and i had three and half or four hours each night in the auditorium or cafeteria allowing the residents of baltimore to ask any questions he and i took that ended that and i think that about me some goodwill with the people because they proceed with my first act as a Police Commissioner meeting with the parent in the community. That went over very well, from what i heard from the Community Community and then what i heard from officers, putting that together, i was able to build a fiveyear Department Transformation plan which is on our website and takes us from everything from recruiting all the way to retirement. The way the natural search was going, we had a number of executives and hired them. So my deputy chief of compliance, came with me to baltimore, my chief of staff came with me to baltimore. My number two Deputy Commissioner of operations of louisville kentucky came. We put together a dynamic team, and i had a retired fbi agent who was the chief of public, from his retirement he joined me with internal affairs. We brought in people with a lot of credibility and expertise and we made sure we found people who had the right skill set, temperament, will and ability to be in the leadership put position with the Police Department. The fact that some chose not to say and some were asked not to say, we really showed the people in the department that we were serious and we continue to do that. We continue to show the residents of baltimore that we are serious. In working with our federal judge, who is a really hands on with the consent degree to give us all the support that we need and where we have a number of mares, we have the support of the department of justice. And thats what helps me. It makes it easier for me. I would not have taken this job if it wasnt for that consent degree. That is powerful. Before getting back to you, if i could ask you, judge morgan, im going to ask you something difficult if i could on the personal issue. You are a judge and you affect so many peoples lives. Its got to be an awesome responsibility that you have. There are times where the robe is off and you are a citizen and a concerned person, a role model to so many and an independent thinker. And you have a point of view. If i could just ask you, in divorcing yourself from your judicial capacity and what youre seeing going on, what can we do as a society in your view . To bridge this gap. If he had to make recommendations, brought to a law school to have discussion with students, or to a Police Department to have a discussion with police. They asked you in your role them because you are so knowledgeable, what knowledge would you impart if you and i were just having coffee . In any one of those scenarios. What knowledge would you impart as a person of substance to how we can resolve this issue going forward. First, i will tell you it can be done. People in Law Enforcement want to do it. And that it takes the support of the community it takes resources patients, and it is definitely worth doing and it can be done. And i would encourage any Law Enforcement officers or Police Chiefs to begin that journey. And there are people out there who will help you because one of the great things that has been happening with the lapd, theyve developed new programs like peer intervention program, they are very excited to go out and help others. It makes them feel good. It reinforces the message. , my message to anyone would be, it can be done, its not easy to enforce it but there are plenty of people out there. I think we need that positive message, particularly now. I want to ask you all about your frustrations with this process. Dr. Brix, you preside over mines and people who are having their own skill set, who are developing, who are going to be resolving these problems, what is the one thing that you are students when they come to you, win your wealth of knowledge of information to them that they have to understand. By the time your class is done, for the semester, they leave with a perspective. What perspective is it. Of course, everyone is different. Everyone is independent thinker. What do you have to get them to understand in order to be an effective participant in moving forward. I would say that my undergraduate students need to leave with an understanding of the fact that the world is very gray. There arent many problems that can be solved with black and white thinking. But then, i do want to give them the tools to know what happens before, we spent a lot of time on history and policy. And also knowing the lay of the land now. And how to evaluate information in order to get a sense of what is real and what information they can use. Themhad one thing to tell it is more an if i had one thing to tell them it is more an understanding of how to approach the confusing world that is out there and where to go to look for more information beyond what i have given them. In order to we figure out their curiosity about different policy issues. Him into that. Commissioner, if i can ask you, a young officer shows up in your office about to begin their career. They are sitting in front of you with all the awesome responsibility that comes from where you sit, the wealth of knowledge, what advice would you have for that officer . And then im going to make the question trickier, the rookie officer leaves and a mentor of the community who has been aggrieved by the officer and says, commissioner, you have to fix this. The rookie first, how they can have a active career. And all the struggles that have been associated with that. And after they leave, the person in the community who has had a negative experience. How do we fix this. What do you say to those two people that are sitting across from you . First of all, he gave me two of the easiest questions. Because i tell it to every recruit when they start. I continue to meet with recruit on their first day and then when we graduate them a reinforce it by saying, the relationships will never fail. Improve every good relationship, and three, repair broken relationships. If you do those three things in everything you do, the way you handle concerns, whether it is the most volatile situation where the most precious. Like situation such as holding a baby. If you treat people like that, those building, improve, repair relationships. I tell everyone to do that. And then i tell them right is always right even if nobody is doing it. Wrong is always wrong. Even if everyone is doing it. And i charge them to think about those two things. When a citizen comes into my office or if i meet them in the Grocery Store where the gas station, or Community Meeting. I tell them that things are always going to happen, our job is to change culture. You talk about policy and training in hiring and all the things that you talk about, but we really need to change culture. When i joined, people said i would join the catch bad guys. It was a sophisticated game of cost and robbers. We have to fundamentally change the way we think to make officers know that i join this profession to serve and to protect people from those who wish to do harm. When i meet those citizens, i tell them that things will always happen but we are changing the culture. Fundamentally changing how cops think and why we do what we do and why we signed up for this noble work. Not to judge us on every time with a scene officer to, but rather look at my response to it. And how we handle it so that we have a changed culture and individual they are complaining about is appropriately trained and disciplined. And the agency has responded accordingly in the best interest of the community. Those are things i spent a lot of time telling communities. Thank you so much for that. Judge, if i can go to you, and ask you this question. We see pattern and practice investigations of Police Departments across the country. There is an element of politics there, what i mean is perhaps some administrations are more committed to pattern and practice investigations than others perhaps not. We have an election coming up in november, we will see what happens moving forward and how committed the doj will be to pattern practice investigations. My question is a bit different. That is this. What can we do, are there any things that we can do moving forward as it relates to pattern and practice investigations to make them more effective . Perhaps do more of them, maybe less of them . Make a speech at a better place where we had more confidence in communities because we know that Police Departments are being investigated. They are being investigated thoroughly and treating communities fairly. I understand that citizens wanting their Police Departments to engage in constitutional policing, and thats not for all people. I think engagement is important in holding your elective officials who you appoint the heads of the Police Department. Its important and demanding more from constitution. You also up to support your Police Department, you cant starve it so that it doesnt have the money to do effective training. And effective supervision. And then expect them to improve. I guess i understand the issue of budgets and wanting to devote money to other resources but i would also have to say im in a personal opinion, with that i dont get involved in politics. Not at all. Thats what i was asking. Your opinion is valuable. We as a person who does so much on the bench in issues of justice and equality and a person who has a point of view when you take your rogue off. That is so important. I will transition to you and asking the following question, we are at a crossroads now. We are at a place where i certainly hope we can get out of and we could hopefully be in a place where we fix this issue, where we have Police Officers who are trusted throughout this country. African american men and women that are interacting with the police and those interactions are hopefully a whole lot better than we have seen in terms of People Living and not dying in the hands of the police. What can we do . What needs to be done from a policing perspective to fix this thing . I am sitting in your class and i want to know, im there, professor, tell me how to fix this problem. If i had to sit here in rattle off the names of young African American men and women who have died in the hands of the police, people are looking for answers. People are looking for solutions. Give me hope. Give me the ability to believe that we are going to have a process moving forward that is worth it. A process that is respectful, that we are going to give a grapple on this. Do you believe we will . Do you believe we can climb out of this place . And if we do, how will that happen . When i do have hope. I have hope for our country and for our cities and communities. We and the reason is this, there are lots of people who are working on these problems, the political will seems to be there but most differently, we are starting to think about and across the country, what is it that we want and expect from our police and how we want police to treat us. Part of that is to think about what kind of policing we all want, what we call the police on someone or will we call the police for help, what we expect from them. If we go to to Community Meeting within a community, how do we want the police to treat our neighbors, how do we want the police to treat our neighbor kids, and to talk about a great deal. I think the fact that we are all starting to consider even if we are not the people who are most likely to have a bad outcome from a Police Contact that we now care about and are interested in what happens to other people. I think it does probably have one of the biggest changes going forward. That is phenomenal, we certainly do need help, the last thing i want to present to the panel. We talked about a lot of issues, perhaps something as you sit there, commissioner, judge morgan, doctor brix, something youre passionate about that we have not addressed, could you take a minute in your concluding remarks to address that or Something Else or something youre ready addressed that you feel strongly about. I just want to start with you commissioner, bring it home. Thank you, i think we are of a time where people are demanding more from something very different from Police Departments, im going to work with mayors to come up with recommendations to our countries of what we think policing should look like in the future, what we want Police Officers to do, what we dont want Police Officers to do. I think all of us are fortunate and we will see better product in the future and we will see better housing and better Police Department, better performance whether then consent degrees are not, the country is demanding more from that is deserved and very much needed and i look forward to the next generation of policing in america. Commissioner, maybe perhaps the next generation will be well prepared and well suited and provide such inspiration as you do on the career that you have led. We need you on that wall and i appreciate you being on that wall. Thank you, thank you for having me. Professor birch, from your perspective, same thing. As a political scientist, one of my favorite core commitments is to civic participation. And i believe that if you care about an issue, you should do everything you can to learn aboutit but also to get involved in a positive way to make change anyone listening to this if youre interested, one of the first things you con start is to go to Police Meeting and going to get to know the officers in your community. Getting to know other people in your community, even think about policing as a career if youre qualified and interested. Theres lots of ways that individuals can make it. And push for systemic changes and will be supportive of change. It is actually a really big deal. Especially at the local level, so few people get involved in local government,. A few extra voices can make a big difference. Without question, thank you for that and all that you do, with respect to the research you are doing about it, the fixes are coming up to resolve it and the great mind youre dealing with everyday that would develop them. Thank you so much doctor birch. Last, certainly not least judge, your role tremendous in all of this with Consent Decrees in dealing with justice and just really being a pillar of government that is so vital to what is happening now, we are at a crossroads, is there Something Else you want to add to how we can grapple this or something youre passionate about. I want to think the aba for shedding light on this issue in bringing the panel together and appreciate doctor birch and seeing chief harrison again and you can tell from his comments today, why he was so important in the Reform Efforts in new orleans. I would say that no Police Department and no organization is perfect and we know that. I think what is important to keep in mind, what we need to do is to develop ways and Police Departments to detect the unlawful conduct in occurring and then have a place. I think each Police Department can do that so nobody is perfect but just as long, with this process in good policies in place to detect misconduct if it occurs. And an effective way of dealing with it. Judge, i thank you so very much as a person residing on the bench and having so much influence and control over what happens in a positive way, how these are carried out, how is justice mended out and a tremendous valuable role that you play every day. Enlightening the discussion, i tell you i am hopeful, again we are at a crossroads, we are in a place in our communities are demanding more from change, perhaps there will be reforms that are meaningful and positive and perhaps there will be incidents that are far less than now as it relates to negative interaction with police and communities of color in particular in the place where we are all proud of each other, communities are proud of police and policing proud of communities. And police are deemed to be synonymous with communities, not outside of it, thats where we need to be. God bless you all, lets all hope for the best, pray for the best and more importantly lets work to achieve the best as it relates to police and Community Relations
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