Transcripts For CSPAN3 After 20240703

Groundbreaker, but why a rule breaker . You know, we struggled a little with with the title. And i would ask people, what should i title this this biography of Barbara Walters . And people suggested things, like Million Dollar baby or baba wah, wah. I mean, these were actually slings and arrows she endured. And it was interesting that thats what came to mind with some people when i when i talked about a biography of Barbara Walters. But it was my it was my editor at simon and schuster, priscilla peyton, who said she really me as a rule breaker. And rule breaker seemed to be exactly right because Barbara Walters broke every rule around. And, you know, she didnt just break rules. She ignored them. She pretended she couldnt see them. So the idea that a a woman couldnt do serious interviews, she just ignored it and went ahead and scheduled serious interviews. The idea that a woman can be paid as much as a man. Well, she certainly blew that idea up. The idea later in life that a woman could age on tv, you know, she was 67 when she embarked on her last big adventure, the view of you, the abc talk show. So Rule Breakers seemed to me to be exactly right. And a rule maker as well who can treat me on cover of the book is a picture of Barbara Walters when she had just joined abc news where i had already been for a for a year or two. What is happening at that moment . That that picture is taken. This picture is from 1976. That was the year she got she reached the pinnacle that she had sought for so long to be named coanchor of evening network, newscast the abc evening news. And it had been a terrible experience as she was going into what we today would call a hostile workplace. Her coanchor, Harry Reasoner, initially threatened to quit if they brought her on board. He treated her with such contempt on the air that they doing two shots. Now, i know you wanted to show that, but a two shot is where they would show both anchors. But they were afraid to show Harry Reasoner listening to Barbara Walters on the air because he was so often scowling. I was going to say he he could scowl and make a kind of a physic all response to her without having to utter a word. His contempt was perfectly clear. Abc started to get letters from viewers, mostly women viewers, saying, what in the world is going on . This isnt fair. And they finally developed a form letter in response to said, please give it some time. We know is going to work out all right. Thats how bad it was. But for Barbara Walters, she felt she was failing. She felt she was drowning. Not only was she drowning, she said, but there were people who wanted to hold her head under the water. And this was a point where she was not entirely sure if she would recover, if her career would recover, or if her ambitions had gotten so big that they would undermine the achievements she already had scored. Well, let me take you a year head. December of 1977 and president jimmy carter was visiting iran new years eve with the shah. Barbara and i were both for abc news on the trip and the big press charter lambs in tehran just ahead of air force one. And there is a car waiting for me to whisk me over to a local museum where mrs. Carter, without the president , was going to go visit right from the airport. And i get into this sedan sitting behind this iranian driver, and theres an interpreter in the front seat and egyptian and. Im told that the reason theres an interpreter is because an iranian man would never take driving directions from a woman. So the egyptian turns to me, says the driver would like to know if you know ms. Barbara walters. Tehran, 1977. I said, indeed, we work for the same company and gyptian said he wants to know, is it true she is paid 1,000,000 a month . And i said, well, actually i think its 1,000,000 a year. And the drivers face fell. Barbara walters was already a global icon. And then didnt it kind of propel her her career from that point on . Isnt that a wonderful story . Because how many journalists have had similar experiences to that . And, you know, one of them who did was Walter Cronkite. So Walter Cronkite was, of course, the leading anchor of the day and a figure of unquestioned authority. And someone who viewed Barbara Walters with a little bit of skepticism about whether she was a real journalist. And they were both trying to cover the groundbreaking things that were happening in the middle east, a groundbreaking trip of anwar sadat of egypt to israel. And it was Barbara Walters and her ability to cultivate relations with World Leaders that a few months earlier in 1977 enabled her to get the first sit down interview with both the egyptian president and the israeli Prime Minister and this was the interview that not only solidified her comeback from her experience as as a coanchor of the evening news, it also Walter Cronkite, which both of them knew. Yeah. And that interview split screen. It was it was not only a moment for journalism, it changed American Foreign policy and middle east policy at a really, really difficult time. So how did Barbara Walters make that leap not only from from nbcs today show, but very high profile and then into the anchor chair and then into this kind of interviewing a mega operation . Did she do it all by herself . Did she have allies . I mean, how did she survive that . She had one big ally, and that was runar, the legendary head of abc news and of abc sports before that. And Roone Arledge came into the took over the News Division at a time that both harry and barbara were on the air together. And it was clear this was not a sustainable pairing of two anchors. And Roone Arledge made it clear that he was on barbaras side, that even though barbaras, you know, being anchor was really not barbara strength. But despite that, he saw there were many Harry Reasoner. There was only one Barbara Walters. So Harry Reasoner saw the writing on the wall, went back to cbs and Barbara Walters did not lose her anchor title. But Roone Arledge redefined how the evening news was going to work with where three guys working in different capitals. And barbara is still technically an anchor, but gradually she went back to what she did best, which was the big interview. She didnt she didnt create the big tv interview. I think youd say Edward R Murrow did that. But she expanded it and defined and reshaped it and came to dominate that genre. Yeah, absolutely totally true. The today show experience, where she was clearly always told about second fiddle or third fiddle, or it did that helped her in the later reaching out to a broad or not just politicians and National Leaders but really broadened her access to other figures. So heres a life lesson from Barbara Walters, which is life gives you lemons, make lemonade. Heres how she did that. She had been on the today show when the host was hugh downs, who was very supportive, one of the very few men on the air who supported Barbara Walters in her ambition and later in life and later on abc news and supported her again. Exactly. So hugh downs the exception to the rule of men who were not welcoming Barbara Walters, but he left and was replaced by frank mcgee, who was a serious newsman who had great regard for women journalists. And he set a rule that when were doing an interview together on the nbc set on the today show set, Barbara Walters could not speak until he had asked the first three questions. Now, can you imagine. So she would sit there for the first three questions, waiting her time until it was her turn and she was allowed to speak. It sounds like something that would happen in an iranian taxicab. Right. And really, i think directions from a woman. So what Barbara Walters did was she to arrange her own interviews outside the studio so not remote from washington, not on the nbc set, but in other places in peoples homes and offices with newsmakers who didnt do very many interviews. And this became, of course, her achievement and this ability to do interviews with people in other places, not sitting in an interview suite like this one. And that was the result of necessity early because if she set up an interview and was interviewing someone in their home, she could ask the first question and the second question and the third question and all the others. Yeah now, i want to ask or take a minute to look the kind of environment that the nation was experiencing during this not only the that she came to abc news and the time that she left the anchor and developed this other this new persona role. I had joined news in 1974, tail of 74, and all through that 76, all the way up the 1980 elections. This was a time when america was being torn apart by opposition to the vietnam war, which was dragging on. This was a time in which watergate had still left its sting and the kind of chaos. And it was a very, very news heavy down, very difficult time. And you add to that the fact that women were not were not as evident, were not as part of the i think the world that she went into, especially for women, was much much different than it is today. You one reason i made the subtitle of the book, the life and times of barbara is because i wanted to talk about the times. The tis were so different from todays times. You know, its not like its ancient history. Its couple of decades ago. And yet, as you said, a time of such tumultuous for black people in this country, for women in this country. I in so many ways, our nation was undergoing upheavals. And she was she swimming in those waters. You know, she was not. Barbara walters lived a feminist life, but she didnt espouse a feminist agenda. She was very focused on cutting a path for herself and in doing that she cut a path for other women, yourself, like myself, to follow. She made things easier for us by doing what she did. But she was she was pretty focused on her own career. And im just im so its so interesting. You actually were at abc just before she was. Do remember the first time you met her . Oh, i. And its a funny little story. I actually the first time i met her, gerald ford was the brand new president who had been swept in, not elected. But after watergate, president nixon resigned. And thats when i arrived. Nixon left on the south lawn. I came in on the north lawn, and we were in china with gerald ford. And there was a day when some he sat in the hotel waiting for for the phone call to go see mao mao tsetung. But i went with betty ford to all these, you know, she danced at the seven schools. We went to the great wall of china. And barbara also came along on these trips and we were in a museum and those of us who cover the white house know kind of how to tell principal and how to get in close. And barbara kind of around and looked at things and as we came out of the museum she went to the car with her camera crew. But we stood at the doorway of the museum. And we got a great interview with her. And i thought, yeah, shes a today. She was today show host at that point. And it shows that doing, you know, news reporting cut forward to she has arrived at the abc news bureau to to meet everybody and happened to be up on the executive top floor in the ladies room and she came in years later came out and she she she came out she they dont have any towels. Cant afford to have any towels here. And i thought, well, im not going to say that Million Dollar salary is cut our towel allotment, but, you know, she had she had struggles every step the way during during those especially those early months and years. And what did just one i realize youre interviewing me, but just one more question. So youre the white one of the white house reporters. And here comes this bigfoot barbara. What did the White House Press corps think of her . She didnt come to the white house and. Hang with us in the press briefing room. She was a presence, especially during that time where she got the sadat begin. All that was done, obviously away, from the white house. But when we travel wild with her, she was just she was that that new years eve in tehran at midnight, they brought the travel pool. Me and couple of other reporters up to the the elegant ballroom of the the avalon palace. They opened the doors and there was president carter and mrs. Carter shah of iran, king hussein of jordan. And they just all said, happy new year, toast and champagne and everything. And i said, mr. President , youre going to go to egypt tomorrow to see president sadat. Why is that . He went one. Barbara wasnt there because. She and John Chancellor of nbc and some the other bigwigs had been invited to the party they were off dancing somewhere and indeed, a few minutes later, we went back downstairs. The president S Secret Service agent, kiser, came and got me said, the president needs to see you. I came back upstairs and the president said, well, cy vance just told me the secretary state just told me, yes, were going to egypt and meeting president sadat at aswan. So sometimes, you know, being in right place at the right time, but she was always kind of an aura, a part from the working stiffs at the white house. Well, thats an example of good sourcing when you know where the president s going to go the next. And he doesnt. Yeah, lets move to what the part of the barbara years at abc news i knew the best central casting could not have designed to more more perfect protagonists than Barbara Walters and diane sawyer. I mean thats the stuff they could make movies. Mike nichols could a movie out of that. Mike nichols who was diane sawyer husband . Yes Roone Arledge, who had been barbaras protect her and who was barbaras most important person, professional relationship had been courting diane sawyer to come over from cbs, courting her for close to a year. And she finally agreed to come over. And only then did barbara hear about it. And she saw this as a betrayal that hiring would be directly in competition for the big interviews that were her signature. And, you know, in other, diane sawyer pushed, everybody for Barbara Walters. Barbara walters had a speech anomaly. But diane sawyer spoke very gracious gracefully. Barbara walters didnt think she was beautiful. Well, what . Diane sawyer is one of the most beautiful women in. American television news. Barbara walters had had to scrap and struggle every step of the way and diane sawyer to have a much easier path to getting to this job of being of anchoring her own interview show on abc and i think that diane, who i interviewed for the book was taken aback by the ferocity of the rivalry that barbara greeted her with. What astonishes and again i was white house in washington i was not in new york when when the two of them competed to try to get the same newsmaker interviews. But i do remember didnt see it as it happened. Bill clinton was president. United states. And as people may know, the white house hands out Network Interview not to the white house reporters, but to the big anchor stars. And it was kind of abc sees turn what happened. So Roone Arledge decreed Roone Arledge the head of the News Division decree, said that it was turn and diane would get if the network got a bill clinton interview, which wasnt guaranteed, but they thought was entirely possible. That it was supposed to go to diane and talk about ignoring a rule. Barbara walters went around the system, lobbied mike mccurry, the press secretary, and others explain not only why she should get the interview, but why diane sawyer should not and the abc, Washington Bureau chief robin sproul, who was in the middle of this and had been much involved in listen to everybody it is dianes turn. Diane is going to get this interview if we get. She got a call from white house from the press secretary who said, youre getting the interview and weve decided its going to. Barbara. So, robin understood that this was going to cause some internal consternation. So she calls, Roone Arledge, and says the good news is weve got the interview. Clinton the bad news is the white house is giving it to barbara and he exploded in anger because it was the latest. It was the straw broke the camels back in terms barbaras rivalry with diane, which had made diane very unhappy, which diane was complaining about. And roone always said to the Washington Bureau chief of turn it down, tell them we wont take it. Which is, as you know, unheard of, totally unheard. You dont turn down an interview with the president because. They wont give it to the the chosen one, you or not . Thats right. Thats thats not thats not the way it works. And the Washington Bureau, you tried to talk to said this will become a story. This will not be kept quiet. This is the refusal to if we if we turn this interview now, the world will know it and it will be embarrassing. And roone always said, turn it down and hung up. Now, robin sproul, who is a friend of mine, robin, tried to think about how to explain to the white house that abc was turning down this prime president ial interview. She was still trying to figure that when Roone Arledge assistant called her back and said, have you done that thing that roone asked to do . And robin said, no. And the assistant. Well, then, dont. Everything will be okay. And they took the interview. Whoa, whoa, whoa. The timing, of course, on this interview was interesting. 1996. Yeah. So reelection year and we did not know the name monica lewinsky. But that was already now when that not the only time there was a trying to steal interviews was it dianes. Oh, real quickly, Barbara Walters argument to mike mccurry, press secretary, was everybody where the president stands on issues but his character, can we trust him . And that came i mean, that that resonated. And of course, eventually became an issue. Well, she did have a ability to conceptualize what she ought to try to get out of an interview. And that would include an interview with. President s and she was she and it was also a characteristic of her that she was she she interviewed people about policy. She interviewed Foreign Policy leaders about Foreign Policy. But she was always interested in the human side of the story and the personality behind the newsmaker. And in this case, she had conceptualized an approach to this interview that was very appealing to the white house, because, in fact, some americans didnt think bill clinton had a character. And this would have been a chance for him to make that case. Know one thing thats ironic, this story i had enormous internal repercussions i went through the archives, the Roone Arledge archives, and is a pair, though there at columbia. And then the in the archives there is this very defensive long memo from Barbara Walters trying to explain, jane, how this happened, because she understood that she was really on thin ice as a result of this. This had cost her something and she had this long explanation about how it came about and how she certainly couldnt have been blamed. And, of course, it was only natural that it was time for her to get the interview. And by the way, other networks were interested in hiring her. And so she closed this memo, this implicit threat that if you punish me for, ill walk away. And so there were no professional repercussions, but i could tell you that that was an incident. All those involved remembered very clearly. Absolutely. And it was not a letter of a three page letter of apology. There was no apology in this letter. Did diana ever try to steal a Barbara Guest . Well, now, diane sawyer is also a very competitive person. How could she have achieved all that shes achieved in journalism without being that way . And there are those who say she gave as good as she got in the competition for interviews. But the really notorious stories like that one, they tend to be about barbara. Yeah, not not. I want take a little bit more personal. Look at barbara but Barbara Walters because i think one of the gifts of this book is not only unearthing new facts about the very public barbara but you give a much more complete picture of her as a woman. Can we start by looking at the forces that shaped her. Yeah. Her family, her marriages, her daughter. So i think so much about Barbara Walters was shaped by her father lew walters, who was one of the leading impresarios of his generation creator of the famous Latin Quarter, which started in boston, then opened in miami, and then finally nightclub, nightclub, and finally in new york. It took the biggest acts there were in the country and was one of the top tourist destinations in new york when lulu walters was in charge of it in the walters was a guy who had a wonderful touch and wonderful understanding of what wanted that was an asset that she inherited from him. But he was also a gambler and he would make 1,000,000 and gamble it away playing gin rummy. Oh, literally gambling it away. Literally gamble it. He would make 1,000,000 with the Latin Quarter and then decide he wanted to open a new nightclub and it would flop, he would be bankrupt and it finally, i think the pivot i think a pivot point in Barbara Walters life came when she was 28 years old. She was pretty you know, she had gotten out of college, out of sarah, but she wasnt exactly on a career path. She had gotten married a guy, but then gotten she had just gotten divorced. She had gone to alabama for a Quickie Divorce of dubious legality. But they were now divorced. She was she had come back new york city and was staying with a School Friend that her apartment when her father attempted suicide, when he came home from his new nightclub, was clearly about to fold after just a few weeks, took all the sleeping pills in the jar and was found by his wife, the morning and his wife did not call an ambulance. His wife called barbara. Barbara came over to the hotel. It was barbara who called the ambulance. Barbara rode in the ambulance to the hospital, then stayed with her, and later she said the thing that she really in a flash was that these financial and emotional support for her family now fell on her. Her father was suicidal. Her mother had always been unhappy and dissatisfied. She had an older sister who was development disabled and to cash, she was going to be responsible for paying for their expense. The head of the family, she was ahead of the family and that propelled her with the kind of drive that made her the incredible professionally that she was, but also the kind of. Lack of a nose, no such access on her personal side. She sacrificed what might have been personal gratification in pursuit of fame and fortune. She was, again, twice more, three times, married, three times divorced. She adopted child, a newborn daughter. She none of the marriages lasted. She was estranged from her daughter for a time, although they eventually reconciled and she had she had good friends. She had some good friends. But everyone involved in her life, her husbands, her daughter, her friends, understood that when push came to shove, her work would come before they did. Why did she get married . I mean, if this was not something that was really, you know, family oriented, something that really drove her. Were they. What were the marriages . So she i think there were, number one, societal expectations that you got married, that you werent maybe successful as a woman or complete as a woman if you werent married and had children. I think she also liked the idea of being married. And i think she liked the idea of having children. Its just the reality that tripped her up, you know, because the reality of having children is, you know, is youve got to put them first. Some of the time, not maybe at every single day, morning, noon and night. But there are times when your children come first, even if its going to cost you something in your career. And there are times in a marriage, too, that youve got to make that a priority. And for her, that was simply impossible to do. She once told a conference, virginia, what was impossible. She said, impossible to have a career, a great, great career and a great marriage and a great mother were. Those are the three things that. Children. Children. Yes. That you could maybe maybe could get two out of three, but you never you never get all three. You know, shes there. She was getting a Lifetime Achievement award in los angeles and she she said something that i find quite astounding. She said in speaking about being honored for her lifetime of achievement. She said, you know, children and they grow up and they move away. But all this, your fame, your fortune that lasts forever. And this is, of course, the opposite of the conclusion that many people have come to, which that on your deathbed, you never say, i wish i had gone to the office more the old barbara bush line. You wouldnt win one more case, win more, one more trial. Its to be with the ones you love and isnt that interesting . Because that was her that continued to be Barbara Walters, of focus too that it was not family. It was what you had done in public as your own record and your own achievements that would sustain you not only what you had done, what you had done yesterday, what you had done a decade ago. Okay, thats fine. But what have you done yesterday . What are you doing tomorrow . When she would we finally retired from the from the view when she was in her eighties and one of the women backstage came up and said, oh, what do you wish . Thinking she would say, i wish for i want to learn to play the piano or travel to the bahamas or i wished or whatever. And she i want more time, meaning more time on the air. Yeah. You know, fascinate let me ask you a little bit about susan page and how you came to not only author but how you got into journalism. You and i have covered politics and, president s together for i. When when did you come to washington . So i covered the 1980 president ial campaign for newsday and, then went on the white house. And you were, of course, already a very wellestablished figure there. I had been there for a couple of years, and 1980 was a watershed year. Can you imagine a candidate for president not only beating the incumbent who was up for, but winning 44 states and then 49 states and his reelection. The it was a fascinating time to be. But how did you go journalism in the first place . So i you know, i liked like like many journalists i worked on High School Paper and i and this was in wichita, kansas. And but i but i liked other things, too. Besides journalism, i really and this sounds possibly ridiculous now, but i was very serious about playing the oboe. I played the oboe since i was in the third grade, and i went to music camp at the university of kansas in the summers. And i played in the state youth orchestra. And i really i really loved the oboe and i loved Classical Music and performing in small and orchestras and also and in smaller groups. And so it was at the time very hard decision to make. And it was impossible for me to envision doing both things, playing the oboe and being a journalist. And in the end, journalism won out. No. As Barbara Walters would say, no regrets. Good. But i went then to Northwest University to the medill of journalism. I got a masters degree at columbia. I went to work for news 50. They brought me to washington and put me on the white house. The national politics, and then some years later, i moved to usa today. So at and at usa today, which was begun right after 80, remember, 1980 was the beginning of cnn and al neuharth was putting together today changing the face of print journalism. I must say that during the years i first came to the white house in 1970, late 74, newspapers dominate the White House Press corps and the national of what was news. By the time we got into the eighties and it was more the the charts and epigraphs on the front page of the colorful usa today and it was cable news and network news that made a real difference. And now we have the news media landscape that has just exploded. There are so many ways people can can be informed, so many ways they find their news, and many of them do not involve broadcast networks or newspapers. This is a world in which we have had to adjust. But it it it really is. So you are in washington and you are busy. You are the editor of the usa today Washington Bureau chief. Washington bureau chief. And you have time to write a book or three. How do you do that . So i like to say i no longer do anything. I dont like doing, which is which is a good, privileged way to live. And i very much like being involved in the daily news mix for usa today, but i also have its writing these these three books have has its been like learning a new muscle to use. Its different kind of its a different kind of research you know, you spend two years doing research. Its different than when youre doing a story and you have 2 hours or two days to do research. Its a different kind of writing, this long form writing. So its been it has just been such fun to figure out how to do this. What about let me see. I want to go back to Barbara Walters a little bit on her on her approach to people she interviewed, because her interviews were often deeper, longer than things that we would do for normal news coverage. How did she get such things as the interview with fidel castro in so she spent two years trying to get an interview with fidel castro. She started it when she was at nbcs today show. She was still working on it when she went to abc. And it was the first really big interview she got that she landed after she had gone to abc. It was in this period in 1977 when she was feeling so beleaguered, but she didnt get with the passage of time and the release of historical documents, we know she did not get this interview just because she finally wore down the cubans and fidel castro. She got it because there was a secret behind the scenes effort between the Nixon White House and then the Ford White House and the cuban government to try to normalize relations, to try to get on a better footing with cuba. It didnt end up going so well. But there was an effort to do that in this interview, this interview that they gave Barbara Walters, was part of an effort by the cubans to present a different side of fidel castro. This is not something Barbara Walters knew at the time, nor would have cared why she got the interview. She only that that she got the interview. And its the most wonderful interview. He said they go on a boat across the bay of pigs. Its not even an interview. Its a whole life, you know, a day in the life of fidel. It became a one hour special. They cross the bay of pigs in a boat and fidel castro talks about how he likes to spearfish there. And he drives jeep with her in the front seat across the mountains to go to this Mountain Retreat where he gives her his gun, the hold aloft as they through streams so his gun doesnt get wet and they end up and this this feast with whole roasted pig and wine from argentina. And, you know, it sparked all these rumors that they were more than friends, which she denied. But it was unmistakable that had the kind of connection that Barbara Walters often forged with, the people she interviewed with powerful men, even the most controversial ones. She could forge a connection that made her interviews crackle. It was questions that she chose to ask that wasnt art form for her. She was fearless. She went to interview Vladimir Putin in the first interview that he gave to a western journalist after the 911 attacks. So a very interview and a very controversial figure. Vladimir putin, not someone with whom she had a spark like she did with fidel castro to castro and who her practice was put to work on questions on three by five cards and rearrange them and figure them out. And then to finally have them typed on five by seven cards. And that was what she took into an interview with was the questions she wanted to ask and she knew the questions she wanted to ask. Vladimir putin the last but she never put it on a card because she was worried that the Russian Secret Service would be doing surveillance and might see the card, might come in and search her room, might might somehow find out what the questions were. She didnt want Vladimir Putin know this question beforehand and she was worried. She asked it last because she was worried he would stand up and walk out. So she does a good interview with Vladimir Putin and then she says, i have one final question. Have you ever ordered someone killed . Now, Vladimir Putin is a former kgb chief. We are quite certain has ordered People Killed in recent years, he says, completely impassive yet. And that was the end of the interview that that is an art form. It it it really is the what happened to walters when she moved into the time where she put together the tv show the view, which, you know, daytime television, chatty girls stuff. What was the reaction to that and why did she really believe she and bill getting her producer really believe that that that that was something they could move forward with . Well, bill, getting her longtime producer, who i interviewed several times for the book, has since passed away. He had always wanted to do a daytime show and barbara and he had talked about it for years. And barbara was interested in as well. And she always told bill that her daughter, jackie was interested that talking her daughter, jackie, made her think, why dont we do an interview show with women of different ages and perspective . Because rather than have all women of the same point of view or women of all about the same, lets have young women, older women, a mix and have and have these lively conversations like i have with my daughter. And so they abc had had a daytime slot 11 00 in the morning where a series of shows had. And because were desperate, they were willing give the show a shot even. Though the executives at abc were not at all convinced it would work. And you know how they knew you know how the getty knew they didnt think it would work. They refused to buy new set. They made use the set that was left over from one of the soap operas that had failed. Oh, for heavens sake. And they. Theyve gotten a new since then. And by the way, it succeeded, but it started with these rather low expectation scenes with a group of four or five women sitting around a table. Barbara walters was on the air of often, not always, but often there. And one arledge worn, barbara, that this would undermine the serious reputation she had built and barbara worried some about that but it was also a chance barbara said, for her to show something other than herself as an inquisitor. You know, she was a pushy cookie. She used to say we all knew her as someone who just pushed one question after another. You know, very serious work. This gave her a chance to show the humor to about her personal life. She would dress up for the halloween shows as Marilyn Monroe when they were doing a show in las vegas. She was carried in by four gladiators. So it was a side of Barbara Walters no one had ever seen. And you know, and i think for some younger people that what they remember about Barbara Walters, the view, not the serious big interviews that she did. A theres a general national shift and she does get they still do get a prominent newsmakers on there. I remember barack obama, the first president to do a daytime and it was barack obama on the view. And when they teach him about it, he said, i wanted to do a show that michelle watch. Very, very true switching. And one of the abc producers once told me that the view was a money making machine. And one thing to remember about Barbara Walters and another part of her legacy from her father, she kept a piece of that. She kept she she was owner of powerwall production letters for wall productions. So was to her great financial benefit as well. And she would tell women in broadcasting, get something yourself, dont just get paid a salary, get a stake in it, because that is where you can achieve real financial security. And i think thats a pattern in american networks. Now, very often youll see Good Morning America anchor has her own production. Some male anchors have their own Production Companies and theyve that that Barbara Walters and when she did this as with many things some in journalism were aghast. You know, she hired a pr agency early on to get her name out there and was something serious journalists didnt do. Starting her own Production Company was something that was seen, you know, maybe a little bit unseemly for a serious journalist. And now, as you say, its something thats adopted. Absolutely. When you did the work on the Barbara Walters book, you had also done this for two other are very different women. But is there are they just kind of totally separate or is there a thread that runs. The three books, barbara . Barbara bush, nancy pelosi and Barbara Walters. Such a good question because i just kind of it i now see a pattern. But i sort of a pattern i fell into. You i was interested in doing a book about barbara for my first book because i had covered her and i thought she was very consequential. And i thought people had great misunderstanding about who she was. They thought she was this lovable grandmother when in fact, she was a force to be reckoned with. And someone with strong views who had a big impact. So that was it was just because it was someone i had covered or i thought was interesting. Who older she was in her nineties. So i thought maybe she would talk to me and be more honest and early. Earlier in her life, which turned out to true, i did six interviews with her in the last six months of her life, and so that was a good experience and it was so. So then i found out i liked doing books and nancy pelosi was the most powerful woman in the history of the american government. And there was no good biography of her. So i set out to write a biography about Nancy Pelosis use of power. So that was my second my second book. And then this third book on Barbara Walters, anotr consequential woman. And, you know, the thing that ties them together, i think theyre all women of the silent generation. Theyre women who were born before the second wave womens movement, before barbara friedans book, the feminine mystique, had been published. They were all of were born and with zero expectations of themselves and anyone else that they would amount to worth a book. Barbara bush, the daughter of a famous, wealthy publisher. Nancy pelosi, daughter of. A baltimore mayor, mayor and a lively political presence. And Barbara Walters, a big impresario. So the daughters of men of some consequence. But lou dalesandro, the father of nancy pelosi thought his sons might become mayor. It never occurred to him that his daughter, his only daughter. It never occurred to Nancy Dalesandro that she might. And Nancy Dalesandro. Nancy, nancy pelosi. Under pelosi was 47. The first time she ran for president. And Barbara Walters was 28 when she suddenly thought, i need to get a career because i have to support my family. You know, there there are so there are threads that go to their women who ended up their lives in they never could have foreseen. At the time they were born. I remember a moment with Barbara Walters excuse barbara bush early in her husbands term. She did a town hall at the Kennedy Center here in washington, where hundreds women, thousands of women came to listen to her. And at one point i said, of course you sacrificed your college education. You left Smith College to marry george bush and can. And we came backstage and she turned and all but grabbed me by this nape of my neck. She said, im never sacrificed anything. I left school because i wanted to marry george bush. As he headed off to war. So all three of those women had of it in them, in their era that kind bottled energy that that Barbara Walters really, really displayed. They were all made of steel and they all faced some significant hurdles. And they all. The thing that drew me to each of them is that they all made a difference. The world is different. The world is different. For me personally, for women generally and in other ways. In ways that affect all of us. The world is different because barbara bush and nancy pelosi and Barbara Walters were around. Absolutely. Do you think that during this age there will be ever a woman president . Oh, yes, of course. Absolutely. 100 . Dont you . Yes, i think. But but weve waited so long. Were pretty. But, you know, i think about. You know, america didnt decide we were to elect a black president. America decided we would elect barack obama. And i think i think the same thing will happen. Its not that america will say, okay, its time to elect a woman. America will say, heres candidate whos a woman who sits a person who should be, who fits all the criteria. I think in our lifetime. Yeah. Well i certainly hope so. When you were doing research on Barbara Walters, were you able to talk to the obviously couldnt talk to her because she was now kind of out of the picture. Did she have Close Friends that were helpful . So she at the time i started the bo a Barbara Walters was in declining health and she was sometimes i think i totally cogent and sometimes not. She knew i was doing the book. Im her long time agent, pr representative cindy berger acted as a go between. I told her i was working on it. She put up its its not an authorized book. She didnt officially cooperate but you know she didnt put up any new hurdles my way, which was all i really asked for. So when i called friends and family members and people, she had worked with in the past, Barbara Walters did not tell them, not to talk to me. So that opened the door without her having to advocate for it. And not every Single Person talked to me. Her daughter, jackie, declined to talk to me. Shes done almost no interviews and is a very private person. But yes, i and i interviewed some of barbaras great good friends. I interviewed some of the women and men that she worked with, like like bill gates getty and richard wald, who was for a time the head of nbc news and later abc and later abc and, a great friend of Barbara Walters, who when walters decided she wanted to go see deep throat, remember that movie that came out that had a kind of following . She made wall take her there because she didnt want to go alone. I would hope she took somebody. Her and wald would be probably perfect escort. So i, i did about 150 interviews for the book and i looked in there werent great archival resources, but there were some archives. I also looked at which were helpful. The Barbara Walters archives at the sarah at Sarah Lawrence college and the Roone Arledge archives and a few others. And i was going to ask about the Barbara Walters archives, are they searchable or they open, or do you have to have special permission to get in . So theyre just at the beginning of being processed and theyre not very complete they like, you know, what you want to find . You want to find this personal letter that they wrote. That is the thing that its such a small. Exactly. I couldnt find that. And im hoping now that shes has passed away that perhaps she has made provisions to put more of her papers there at Sarah Lawrence. Lawrence, i hope so. Yeah. The of the one moment in the book i love it is 2010 and at abc and Roone Arledge is president or is it david westin by now and they have they want to Show Team Spirit and what do they do. So is david westin. Roone arledge had fomented all these rivalries, not between diane sawyer and Barbara Walters, but between men and his white male journalists as well. This was part of the Roone Arledge method, but it was really cutthroat culture. And david westin wanted to show that they were working as a team. And so there was a famous picture that Roone Arledge had had taken, the seven big anchors of abc, which included Barbara Walters. Well, david westin arranged a portrait of several dozen, maybe six anchors of all sorts to be to show that they were all in this together. And he told them all to wear gray or black. So that they would look like a team they would be almost identical. Why do you have to wear mute uniformity . Yeah. So theyre all lined up. Its of course, you can imagine the logistical of getting this done. They finally get everybody there. Diane sawyer, George Stephanopoulos and others and in walks Barbara Walters at the last minute, wearing a bright red jacket. And of course, they have saved space for her right in the middle of this picture. Right. And she goes in. She her chair, she sits they take the picture. And so the picture that you see is all these others in muted. Diane sawyer is wearing a white blouse, a black skirt and a red belt. And then this bright red figure in the middle who is pretty clearly the captain of the team. Amazing. Amazing. The at the there was no big funeral for walters. Tim russert when he died was the Kennedy Center. Peter jennings. We went to carnegie hall. Was it because why you think that was . So that was a great surprise to me. And i was in the middle of finishing up the book then and i thought, what a this will be wonderful for the book. I mean, what a wonderful moment to see her memorial service. It did not it did not take place. The her remains were cremated and given to her daughter, her daughter, who is very private, did not want. My understanding is her daughter not want to have a big memorial service. Abc decided. My understanding is that you couldnt really have it without only with her. With her close closest relative being there with their daughter being uncomfortable or not being there. So they didnt they didnt have one. You know, barbara went to a million of those. Oh, and i spoke to a bunch of them. And i can only imagine she would have reveled in being honored by all these friends and frenemies at a memorial service. But it didnt happen. And in fact, her burial was private. And where is she, barbara . So it wasnt announced. It wasnt public. I knew from the research i had done that she had intended to be buried in the in the cemetery in miami, where her father and mother and sister were buried. So i was pretty sure was buried there. But the cemetery refused to cooperate and i finally a researcher and who had to move heaven and earth to do Indepth Research to find gravestone with no ones help, which she did. The researcher did and its a small gravestone close to the ground next to her mother father and sister and it says no regrets. I had a great life. What a susan. Let me finish by asking if Barbara Walters in her nineties was still active and around and if she said why, susan of course, ill sit for an interview with you. What, two or three questions would you ask Barbara Walters . Well, id want them to be good, and id want them i would probably ask myself, what would barbara ask . Because she had she was enormously skilled in shaping questions that to the heart of the matter and that were impossible to dodge. She knew that the more words you had around a question, the easier it would be for someone to dodge it. So i think if i were going to ask her three questions, i might her whats your best memory . And lets see if she says something professional. Personal. Whats your regret . Because she may say she has no regrets, but none of us have no regrets. And then i think the final question i would ask perhaps would be, were you happy you that question of many of the people you interviewed. The verdict. Well, a few said yes, she was happy. Joy bahar, the cohost on the view, said happy ish. Theres no question she she was very proud of what she did and she was proud of the money she made and the achievements she had. But almost everyone else i talked to said, no, she was never content. She was not happy. Susan page. Thank you. Thank you. In. I will. Thanks everybody for coming. My name is matt baum. It im the owner here at peoples book along with my wife meghan. Really happy to have alex natasha here tonight. I talk about the book, the internationalists. Alex is a National Security reporter at