really important to understand. when bill clinton went through the debt limit fight of '95. >> bill: let me stop you one more time. was bill clinton frightened of the far left. >> only if jessie jackson won in the primary and he bought him off by making no change in affirmative action. >> bill: it wasn't the country it is now. you didn't have that web site craziness and all of that. did you have 24 hour cable and talk radio. bill clinton himself when he was sitting in the oval office, he didn't fear george soros? >> no. he feared jesse jackson. he cut a deal with jackson and then he was relaxed. >> bill: so the others didn't matter. >> yeah. >> bill: have the others risen in pawfer. >> of course. they elected obama. >> bill: why have they risen in power? >> mobilization that began with impeachment that gave rise to moveon.org. continued with the iraq war. continued with the gay rights movement. >> all about the web site? all about the technology that has given them the power? >> technology has been important for both sides. >> bill: look, msnbc hals no