Peacefully staking their claim on Freedom Police holding back this time with no tear gas no rubber bullets but will beijing give hong kong the freedom and autonomy it so desperately wants and why is the west been so reluctant to unequivocally back up the protesters and their calls for democracy. Our topic today chinas power play calling for trade to talk about this im joined by walk away from the the views asia desk he says china wanted to experiment with the rule of law and democracy in hong kong with one country 2 systems and now also has the make concessions. Botches a Senior Expert on egypt where the Bertelsmann Foundation based here in berlin he says comes the half percent of global competition of. Systems western democracies show solidarity and resilience and the ability to learn. And carry chan is from hong kong and works for you w. Social media team in berlin she says chinas propaganda war is only uniting the people of hong kong and they will not stop fighting on the streets until they get a real response from the government. Thanks so much to all of you for being here today and to our viewers of course from around the world as well wow if we could start with you you know you say that its all a matter of of the people talking in in hong kong and of beijing experimenting with this city have they lost control of the laboratory the laboratory that is right hong kong right now for the Chinese Government are and are events taking on a life of their own there one see it is out of control beijing never controls hong kong in the remaining but its not conscious of the public image of the International Words the situation home call is like it is hong kong trying to be the part of that one country 2 systems that are part of the one of the 2 systems in the world with the demanding a democracy and rule for all this written into law and thats what the dimona beijing is not ready to give them the freedom ok to 2 countries to use 2 systems is one country and one of the systems is clearly totalitarian the one in beijing hong kong has been frayed to this point a baronet you say the hong kong is on its way to becoming a police state. At least the police have played a role in the last couple of weeks that i think has surprised a lot of hong kong is because in hong kong there was a lot of trust in institutions and the police and the Police Violence that weve seen and that hasnt been independently. Researched is something that has shocked. Hong kong and is really at the heart of this conflict which for hunk owners and knows better than we all do is a conflict about what is city going to be like in the future is it going to be just any chinese city or is it going to remain. A different system ok lets point out for viewers that its 2047 right that hong kong reverts to complete chinese rule so theres this window of opportunity there a cherry as a hong konger how is this City Different from the rest of china. In that race in hong kong. I mean from there we always see. At. Almost the same standard as how the west is seeing it we also know people from china with friends from Mainland China when we talk about this because we know that we have a difference when we look at freedom for example we always have a relatively high freedom of speech freedom of media we can get access to a face for. The internet without any restrictions which is very different from the Mainland China ok and its also the court system as well hong kong has been so successful because it has an independent courses then there is the rule of law that is also a main difference along with freedom of expression isnt it yeah exactly in hong kong we always trust such a system and we know that is independent from and ministration we know that we have always trust that the government would not interfere a city in 2 and a process all and each of the show decisions ok so its a long way from where we are today to a police state that so many people fear how one of the problems that protesters have been pointing to is the extradition law that the citizens of hong kong if they are charged with a crime would disappear to Mainland China basically whats behind these fears of being extradited to Mainland China why is that so terrifying for hong kong people are the reason is pretty clear because home and city are good by law but the Mainland China is not the case therefore some korinos accused in hong kong the if the. If they go to to Mainland China their fear is not very transparency proceeds in the courts thats the main reason for the hope protest but now this bill is stats as the c. E. O. Of the country but its just the beginning of the long protests because the finally the months its democracy is the real meaning we understand here in west. What do you think what are the chances that this real democracy is how put it as we know in the west can be protected by the current leader of the city of ill go. I dont think promoting democracy is the job that kerry has been given by the beijing government the basic glow said that potentially hong kong could have free elections its not very definite this its a its unclear no but that is what hong kong people have been hoping for the longest time that at one point there will be full democracy and beijing has made it very clear in the last couple of years that that is not going to happen and its carried. Through to no squash these protests some peeps more peking says it could happen but. It should have both because they know the basic law is that if in chile and gradually it would have been well put tension is so we believe that in the end it would have been and were looking forward to this ok cerium you also pointed to earlier social media thats very much part of chinas propaganda warfare aimed at not only the people inside all gone but the mainland chinese as well it shows that beijing really wants to get control of this process the protest process quickly as possible is there a fear in beijing in how this question would apply the use well that that the protests will will leave hong kong and moved to other parts of the country that we could see protests elsewhere in china as a result yeah. I think the propaganda war by china itself very office laid off a successful in hong kong and its all very successful in the International Media as well because hong kong people have been very used to this kind of propaganda state media the state months and people mainly use it mainly see it as a joke more than believing what they are saying yes so and also hong kong people really trying to be they are really trying to get International Attention and a lot of protests all the nice in other countries as you said but could the social media propaganda. Another propaganda lead to protests that will move to other parts of china or do you think thats thats a situation thats to be excluded that these protests are not transferable to the we gars for example the minority muslims oh i dont think theyre going to move somewhere and chinese cities because its not going to work because the home call is to a free city you may go to a street and demonstration but in china the simple ways we dont know exactly what happened happened really happened in Mainland China we dont know what exactly happened why it happens and the police have a very strong hand and they would make you disappear for long periods and thats very risky risky for all of the parties but the ok were going to focus more now on the propaganda war being waged on numerous fronts by beijing those fronts include Global Social media platforms state run media from entertainment to films to internet news sites and of course to state run t. V. As well. This is how Chinese State media are presenting the situation in hong kong as a city in chaos with mass protesters prepared for violence. To me accuse of being bandits and terrorists. This is the Chinese Governments take on the temporary occupation of hong kong airport today we express our strongest condemnation of this new terrorist act and express our deepest condolences to be injured mainland compatriots and hong kong police. The newspapers are also full of images of violence this propaganda seems to be plausible for some citizens who didnt i think that its ok to take to the streets and protest in a normal way but you shouldnt destroy public order and carry out violent acts only terrorists do that kind of thing. State media have also been showing these images of troop exercises in on the border with hong kong. But will china really resort to arms to crush the resistance in hong kong. Or what do you think about chinese a propaganda aimed at hong kong and the rest of china how effective is that different isnt it weird from cherry the software effective in hong kong what about on Mainland China to people buy all of that. Thats the big question i think the interesting thing and you pointed to that is that. In hong kong it doesnt work and it doesnt work although theres been more than 20 years of strong propaganda strong propaganda in schools and it didnt work and i think this demonstration came as a surprise to beijing because beijing thought we have discovered it so the big question in Mainland China is do people believe all the propaganda yes in a way they do its what theyre fed with but it doesnt mean that they happy with the system that theyre happy with their own lives and that theres not a lot of undercurrents of dissatisfaction that could blow up nobody had a protest like in hong kong on their books and the big question for beijing is how is it conquering to control its own population ok. What do you think what reduced china not getting right about why is the propaganda not succeeding there is it simply that hong kong people have access to western media is that whats going on there there is no saying chinas which is very good is like a metaphor for this reason because the asian chinese when intellectually writing from upstairs to downstairs when theyre reading books is always why home call eyes the hong kong regard hong kong part of bristol there right from left to the right hand side is overseas no i just think in beijing they dont get tied into the bodys response and how we read thats exactly that they know everything what the party in the states say its too and they didnt have the 2nd sort of independent source because of censorship thats the reason and i dont see. Chinese the states run maybe a is going to have the control they might have a conscious of the Public Opinion within the Mainland China but what they want its have an International Opinion a China Friendly International piano what theyre trying to a lot over the the facebook and twitter ok. What do you think of propaganda is not going to work what are the options for beijing to get hong kong in line. To answer all that the month of hong kong people 1st of all this is i think in every mind of this and they know very well what they want and what they are fighting for and theyre not going to stop until they get that the month im set and also theres one thing about. A Public Opinions in china maybe Chinese Government think that they could control the Public Opinion but the fact is that Chinese People they are so afraid to speak out that its never we are never able to get what they are really thinking because they cannot speak on social media they cannot speak on camera so maybe they are really thinking like hong kong people just that they can never speak out maybe they want the same freedoms but we simply dont know that well the Chinese Communist party is track record on respecting human rights is of course dismal the occupation of tibet destruction of its culture the internment of over a 1000000 muslims of course as well and the bloody suppression of the Democracy Movement at tienanmen square in 1989 now this was the Central Point of. Efforts to crush the Human Rights Movement 30 years ago and it was a savage reality when tanks literally rolled over young pressers protesters in the square of heavily peaceful we all remember that in Tiananmen Square young men and women who had the audacity just like the courageous citizens of hong kong today to call for their voices to be heard to demand that their voices matter just as much as the highest functionary of the communist party and that all people must be equal before the law that will is what it was all about back then it is now and the question is those voice those voices 30 years ago they were drowned out in blood we havent heard them since then not in the way that were hearing them now at least in hong kong. Its a big question i know but after looking at the images of Tiananmen Square from 30 years ago better if we could start with you should we be concerned about the possibility of another Tiananmen Square in hong kong i think we should be concerned but i dont think its very likely tenement is still a troll mo for the Chinese Communist party. Beijing knows that it would be drastic if the p. L. O. A the Peoples Liberation army actually went into hong kong and i dont think its necessary nowadays because the party has different means of putting people on the pressure that has all the technical means it has the companies that are being put under a lot of pressure now Cathay Pacific and many others so i dont see a big likelihood at the same time i dont see a very good outcome for the hong kong people its going to be a very unhappy ending a very unhappy ending ok what do you think that means gerry what would be a very unhappy ending have you excluded as bernard has the possibility of another gentleman square i think hong kong people they are very well aware that china is trying to stare at hong kong people with violence and a possibility of sending the army i think many of them just try to ignore the fact even if they know about this they would think that they have nothing to do this if it ends up like this they would they would take other action but that for now they only came out is to have answers from the government what do you think oh i dont i dont think this. Happened again with china sort of years ago is was complete different from the china today because china always says its now a responsible big nation the International Word and theyre going to to use force because of the International Conflict china always says we want peaceful meaning to solve the problem they can be that china says we now have a problem my home back yard i just make my soldier suit or to give it clear that its no problem to more. Than the ball and not the outcome and is chinas going to celebrate 60 years of funding of the peoples republic china beginning of october. Thats coming up yeah i dont believe theyre going to be have a very very bad image in the International Press when the pier is marching to hong kong ok so china plays a very long game though the communist party in beijing. If we look at the past if we look at whats happened in tibet what happened in Tiananmen Square the internment of the weak corps i mean beijing is not adverse to reverting to force at the end of the day it could it would be because hong kong has nothing Legal Framework this is a part of a not a system the legal frame with sess the peary could be essential hong kong if the c. E. O. Of the leader of hong kong officially a speeching to do that but im not sink kerry lamas the leader of the city is going to do that ok well how is the west responded theres been a mixed response french and german leaders have called for dialogue about the situation the us congress has condemned chinas heavy handed Police ResponsePresident Trump has called on the chinese president to exercise restraint. But like to see hong kong worked out in a very humanitarian fashion i hope prisoner g. Can do it he sure has the ability i could tell you that from personal logie certainly has the ability to do it if he wants to so id like to see that worked out the humanitarian fashion i think it would be very good for the trade deal that were talking about. Believe is only dont trump responded to this in terms of a high level world of politician is the us the only country that can bring pressure to bear on beijing i think hong kong people are trying to. The International Community not. Only the u. S. But also. To put pressure on china but they are also very well aware that only if its only what its. Like what if a new International Coming to china if there are no other action for example economic sanctions all. That was for them mean anything ok what do you say. Expressing concerns kind of pressure and china has to syrias take take taking to consider. Sanctions not the way out a way out would be at that beijing hong kong they going to negotiate in the framework of one country 2 systems about the way the timetable at least how the democrats democracy could be implemented in hong kong like direct like a general election ok i dont know what im listening to terry though thats already been decided just 2047 when china resumes control of hong kong until then the Chinese People of the people of hong kong rather want democracy the way im hearing you is that gerry thats nonnegotiable yeah because for us we dont believe what were trying. To extension a fun country to a system we dont want to live that. By the way it will become chess and not the city of china we want to have an extension we want to have that some for africa ok the 2 system forever lets take a listen now to some of the protesters and what they have to say about their hopes their fears and their dreams from go. Through some of the more we come out to protest the more people will be arrested but we still will not leave until we get what we want. Driven isnt one of those emotional talking no its a lot more than he knows the north pole pulls of the spoils he goes. We can easily be recalled for the call to do this we can vote on more of them but if we use these for phone calls to overseas with different people we share the same values as us and you that you might call it democracy if i push and pull out those countries and then go and speak up for. Ok after listening to those protesters are what were seeing in hong kong or is it something thats shaping up to be another clash of cultures on one side a clearly a one party illogical system on the other a multiparty democracy that supports the rule of law is this a clash of cultures that were seeing take place focused on hong kong that has to do with china. I prefer the term competition of systems none of us has an interest in a real clash but definitely in a Global Situation where we have established west and democracies on the one hand on the other hand we have a rise of authoritarian systems. China and that is part of the conflict that is playing out that is part of why the u. S. Is getting involved on a high level because the u. S. And china have this trade and Everything Else will going on so more trouble for xi jinping is something that donald trump obviously enjoys but its also something that consumes us in europe because in hong kong we say we see the playbook that china is using to handle dissent and called for democracy and that is a much much broader question how is it more of a clash or a competition and i prefer the word to the term coexisting because a system of the cooling system to what china doesnt want is that the between the want the 2 systems that one system is challenging the other should be a coexistence that says to keep the whole one Country Stable ok so cherrys the wests approach right now a good one should the west back off a void provoking china not looking like its being involved in the protests right now. Speaking from the perspective of a hong kong person of cause we would like the west to speak out law to give more pressure to china but that may be the best interest of the obvious but i think on face because of all the other reasons because of economy because of trade if we had just speaking about the value of the malkuth the end favor them then obviously the west has this responsibility to fend them how should the how should the west stay up stand up what does it need to do to show to the rest of the world that it indeed believes in the value. On which its based i think showing solidarity is important i think honesty is also important i would be very happy for leading european politicians to come out and say we support this this is illegitimate show of concern by the hong kong people china is trying to undermine the legitimacy of these protests and we should show no this is just a minute and on the other hand we should also be very open and saying. You cant get can expect this from us but you can expect more we have interests in china we are in a very different very difficult situation this is how fall he can support you but please see the complicated situation that we are and ok our last question to you do you think this is going to end peacefully you are promoting a coexistence of the 2 systems is it going to end well of been able to go into anywhere because a single way out is. Between Hong Kong Beijing and thats that they have to the homework they have to do right now and sit down at the table and Start Talking thats right sherri we can talk more some point about extending the freedom past 2047 or out of time though id like to thank all of our viewers from around the world for joining us on quadriga today and of course our guests here as well. Im dr thomas for all of us thanks so much for being with us. Do. You. Or. Im not nothing to do the job well i guess sometimes i am but i stand up and with the company of unsticks deep into the german culture of looking at the stereotype of course but in years think the future of the country that i dont. Need to change the picture this grandmother day oh you know its cold out there. Im rachel join me for me the german fun d. W. Post my 1st vice like moses sewing machine. Where i come from women are almost by this social model even something as simple as learning how to write a buy Side Business and. Since i was a little girl i wanted to have them by sight the law of my home and it took me as the pundits might. Finally gave up and mentioned by nehemiah save those but returns people sewing machines sewing i suppose was more appropriate for goes than writing im biased as no i want to meet shall still boss woman back home for bones by the internet and social norms and inform them about the basics writes my name is the amount of the who and i work at z. To. Be. Vicious. But on morning. Edition i mean youre monotonous in calling us. Going to dance for him to call me up on macy and us all with only about a. Vision of getting him or to put on more than. Ready this you know i mean mean youre not in a scene going you know what it is sort of a moment to notice. What employees wanted me to know but im with what an organizer im not going to support him on. This you know i mean youre going to raise ingrown you are going to get what you call you dont want to. Me nominate and unanimous. The show could go because i see a variety of sort of. I shouldnt. Know what ive only said but i thought going on what theyre doing fun to. See it because as if to say i said. This is deja vu news live from berlin britains Prime Minister and frances president hold talks on braggs its in paris Boris Johnson wants to renegotiate britains Withdrawal Agreement and get rid of the irish back stop president because thats the backstop is indispensable though he is holding out hope that a deal can still be done also coming off nearly 10 years in jail for the migrant a convicted in the stabbing death of a german last year an attack that sparked riots in the city of chemists