Transcripts For DW Stammheim 20240713

Stewart. And prison 1975 the leaders of the Red Army Faction terrorist group were on trial. And put says my generation was on trial today and it didnt go through to were they revolutionaries or killers the trial divided the country. Be short of the blue pills you give a push on to and there are only 2 colors black and white yes watson does bias there were confrontations in the courtroom as well. Me that made me just made now for thats not make me happy ill change it and not see me beauty ill sleep for it wasnt easy for the judges straight face germany was in turmoil how could justice be served in the shadow of terrorism. Its funny it was oppressive i was completely worn out. The defendants were sentenced to life in prison and day one the only ones. Ridgeley prison in 1984 a few weeks before the start of the trial our f. Member harga minds had been on a Hunger Strike for 2 months he wanted to be moved to the same prison as the other members of the group he called his lawyers it was still meeting him 3 was already so weak and he may see a said that i had to put my ear close to his mouth to understand him with my back and he said please make sure that they move me to shun time as soon as possible each social function and yet it was right before the weekend by the high tide of 40 important and. Minds his lawyers notified judge to go to a princeling who is presiding over they are after a while prince in cold the prison invitation. Kind of a to say the 4 thats no one told me that he was on his death bed with me he was still Walking Around no doctor was attending him and he wasnt considered a risk that these are all finished i suspect already he. That same night november the 9th the lawyers and relatives of the aria of prisoners held a solidarity event. They wanted the inmates strict prison conditions to be relaxed. The judges dont gabriela print saying also attended it was a thought and i sympathized with the Red Army Faction at the time as long as they had the courage to go beyond philosophy and debate but they took action allister came and took a key on. The gathering was interrupted by some bad news i thought i might as died. Yeah you. Just remove the situation became tense right away and he saw a few days he could feel here i wish that everyone stood up. On top it was and i was shaking because i knew that when they said murderer they meant my father and ordered we decided right away to go to the judges home and protest again so on painting on porters theone. Print sings address was listed in stuttgart Telephone Directory his daughter called to warn him. Down to wouldnt stand since they stood down there and called out murderer there were 200. 00 or 300. 00 people at the house we had 2 Police Officers armed with submachine guns ready to fire after the demonstrators left but that was only the beginning. Can appear to work for the death of hologram mines also stepped up the pressure on the court system put your gig and on judge consider the 4th of them and i am proud of the aria ive set its sights on the judge. Because nobody is going out despite their couldnt and never forget those events on the one hand i feared for my fathers life and i didnt want anything to happen to him. But i could also understand the outrage over the death of hunger months palin and claw organize shall see while she was on the far left politically like most students of the time and just to take the words right the state of. This generation had been shaped by the German Student Movement of 968 and they wanted change students. Demonstrated against the state the author of his and germanys nazi past. We wanted to change things we didnt want to see fascism or nazi isnt ever again that was the main thing. And. The street battles of 968 had a profound impact on an anti generation of young people some sort of violence as the only real way to achieve change. That included holger much the student at the time mines joined an underground group called the Red Army Faction. Its founders obvious botted goodwin enslin planned to use terrorist attacks to create the foundation for an anti imperialist revolution journalist in wicca mindful of also joined the group a 972. 00 they already have carried out a series of deadly bombings including some aimed at u. S. Troops in west germany it was a protest against the war in vietnam but i often find it was widely known that the u. S. Forces stationed here played an Important Role in the criminal war in vietnam worth creek shown in vietnam 4 people were killed and 50 others were wounded in the attacks many who had sympathized with body and might over horrified by the increase in violence but the anti were protests brought together they are a half and leftist groups in west germany. Vite in some people including intellectuals artists Students University students and staff felt a Certain Affinity with the r. A. F. In flint from one to can. In june 1972 police camp had 3 key arias members at a warehouse in frankfurt order minds young girl vosper and underway as bada. Boom and slain and when we combined hove were arrested soon afterwards. The talks and there was a major contradiction with the r. A. F. And their trial and all that this is they had the most impact and post the greatest threat and one still leaders had been put behind bars into schwarzenegger path once and. The r. A. F. Defendants were sent to sham home prison in stuttgart a special Court Facility was built on the prison grounds at a cost of 12000000. 00 monks it was a unique give. Element in west german history the judge hearing the case was an experienced legal scholar and the form of a mark left on it. For the nz enacts this case will follow strict legal procedures we will ensure that the rights of the accused are guaranteed to get it out of afghanistan and can the court will not allow those rights to be abused by either side and i know. If you i mean at 1st we lawyers had a normal and informal relationship with the judge for comfort and fairness they wished he had that you hope and thats is i had hoped that given my courtroom experience i would at least be able to impose a sense of order on the proceedings to his knee or shafiq and defines him civil. In late 1974 the area of prisoners were transferred to stomp on the trial against enslin hospital barda mind over and mines was to start there in a few weeks the charges against them included 4 counts of murder the group had already claimed responsibility for the killings the defendants faced life in prison and they decided to use Hunger Strikes to protest the strict prison conditions that the author of his and imposed on them. Yes that is now for me it was the 1st time since 1905 that prisoners had used their own bodies as a weapon it was a huge stash because it could end in their deaths as it did with hunger months any. Mines his death was a disaster for the Justice System the author of his were now in the dock and the Red Army Faction had its 1st martyr. Well yeah the fight continues. There were accusations that mines lawyers were deliberately complicit in his death and that they were simply trying to stir things up before the trial started importing for the aryans lawyers particularly Klaus Croissant this was much more than just another trial. I had always had a Strong Social conscience. But over time of course his support for groups like the r. A. F. Got him into trouble to me nearly up to taught. In december 974 course some arranged for french philosopher john paul sounds good to visit and various bodies in charm hein. The mines and there was some opposition among the other judges but it was my decision alone and i was comfortable with it and i wanted people to see that we werent trying to isolate the defendants from the public. Side to a mistakenly believe that the spartan of visitors room was actually barred us out there was a huge controversy and santa raised claims of psychological torture. The neon light is on all the time they only switch it off until 11 pm for him and not at all for the other inmates. Afterwards already have sympathizers formed anti torture groups to support the prisoners some even demanded the liberation. Is open 2nd r. A. F. Generation was recruited mostly from these groups the fight a common case. And stucco april 9756 2nd generation r e f members known as the hold the mines command took hostages in the German Embassy they demanded the release of the sham home prisoners to embassy employees were killed that night explosives that the hostage takers had brought with them blew up wounding all of the attackers the heim prisoners found out about the incident despite strict security measures and the news broke that the siege had ended a crowd gathered outside the prison. Lets announce and hang on. A great hope the fluke to let him out and shoot him. An eye for an eye. Lynch law instead of a fat trial as long as they are a half leaders were in prison the terrorist attacks would continue to be they didnt come things down a toll on the contrary that it made the situation even worse as gunson must fail by guitar the trial started on may the 21st 975. Armstrong im just now a lot of foreign journalists with their time reporters from a number of countries came to hime the mood was tense there were police on horseback in Armored Vehicles and in a helicopter. It was the biggest terrorist trial in west german history some of the spectators supported the our air. Meaningful to im here for the trial because of bada the whole Red Army Faction and the goals that theyre pursuing. Just finished. A 16 year old student from stuttgart was also there under his file was a member of a christian democrat youth group in a mission as a city official told me that if the government had a file on me i shouldnt go if i wanted to get ahead in my career. That im gay down here in your thought is camp to particularly close out on the sympathizers. Of any school and the University Students and teachers were suspected of supporting the r. F. There was a lot of suspicion on both sides many of the sympathizers believed the state could not guarantee a free trial. And there was another Hunger Strike. When the defendants appeared in court for the 1st time they seemed to be in poor health. At least their weight is a concern getting. Weighs around 48 kilograms. And slain 42. Well over my no 40 and a half and bought a waist 50 kilos of and to kill this and say the defendants had such a high public profile that bother could say if we go on a Hunger Strike the entire country pays attention in. The cancer probably to. The judges daughter gabriella joined a solidarity committee. Move on and we did things like that all the time if it involved the r. A. F. I was in now. Bunch of the defendants were ruled unfit to stand trial the trial could be suspended judged prince ing suspected that this was the reason behind the Hunger Strike yes its just been hoped that when other defendants whites accurate titans how did this happen to you from a medical perspective is it possible that the defendant sorry tension in the losing weight was the i mean it was convincing me telling be convinced. By feeling. About a 5 on a season reason making for didnt just happen to. But laws were no on the books that allowed trials to take place without the defendants being present that was no coincidence. She felt she already have the kind of the civil side its been 40 years now and says so i can speak openly and state. But obviously i think the court knew that the defendants would continue their Hunger Strike to the point where they no longer be fit to stand trial. In this hot the same hot boy kept on taught in school so there would have been no point to even start the trial. What kind seen how thats not meeting one for very high school. If i had known than not some judges were pushing for this change in the law here and i give vets even tougher im through it would have been another reason for me to suspect bias by the court and mistake of 100. 00 communities in the new law was apparently nish aided in part by the court itself also limited the rights of the defendants lawyers the court accused Hans Christian of supporting the aria and took him off the defense team closed course some and court good of all to also removed doesnt matter to me that prompted a lot of criticism from other countries you know political trial the defense lawyers are often taken off the case now happens everywhere. You are of lawyers were outraged. You had tied you know the defense team has been gutted 3 of them funded and lawyers have been removed just before the start of the trial or think there is no defense team anymore get your man. Who dont ensigns lawyer took a combative stance. Made now for the its not make make you have to be outraged that the me beauty also made me i am on the line to me if i was late and i was invited. Not enough words its nature its not enough it doesnt take the outreach are they should have let you know its been a bit in portis every morning when we walked into court we experienced a wave of aggression and hostility and even hatred has. Barred our these colleagues use the trial as a political platform. They were very confident they were articulate in eloquent and made it quite clear that they had no intention of participating in a regular trial to see what they wanted to politicize it from the very start and the boys name put this plan phone and put it in. The top for the 1st top tier the american farm. And on and on for farm a funny. Thing can. I limit the 15 about adults who are tied in yet another spot. Just wildly seen and sold big standing. They spoke out against the vietnam war you could say that they did so improperly but they have a right to straight and thats the nature of a trial like this hes an ans so whats this is not purely contemn of course you could understand why plain singing and the other judges were upset that defendants lashed out at the insult at them but if one told judge cleansing to shut up. E. P. D. Its bottom dog fights me to give id actually feel privileged just the definitely wasnt easy for the judges but i wasnt on their side i was on the other side we have to set. At press conferences the law is focused on the defendants political philosophy thats good each time the court has rejected an investigation into the extent to which the west germany government was involved in the criminal us war of aggression against vietnam and vietnam for because around. The goal was to use the trial to attack the Justice System hell until you see its the insult thats how different im but i think its nonsense to claim that anyone was to be humiliated or made a victim the balance of power was quite different back then after. Us and if god is god we cant. And dont you know me hey yeah i know my. Family out there man is he been the one who had come and he is a tease if you listen to the tapes youll see that it wasnt the defendants who were aggressive toward the judges. It was the lawyers for leave unverified on the shaft the defense lawyers stalled the trial by constantly raising accusations that judge brinn singh was biased there were divisions between arre of supporters and opponents and not just in the courtroom. In the us you know tightening our Student Newspaper covered the trial so the School Officials banned it then we sold it in front of the school we painted a red line on the ground and said this is where germanys democracy ends the a following to support obvious you know there was so much polarization and hostility back then extreme i take it he said president the trial outraged many average citizens. Have they need tougher jail conditions and worse food me me me. They havent eaten in weeks and. Theyre too lazy to sleep its too. So much for them. Listen let me the 3rd reich is gone. I hope itll come back. On i mean until i have folders full of mail that include slanderous remarks and Death Threats but instead say things like how can you defend murderous why not. Good for the im going to survive the worst case was when someone sent me a bullet and a letter really not said this is a death sentence made im obliged to leave this time tortoise or title theater director klaus prime and was also accused of being an r. A. Of sympathise a crime and had supported a from raising effort so that goodwin enslin could have some dental work done on committee of the in thing i came back from holiday and saw myself on the cover of the billet newspaper you know this man funds the underground much big time under nates 10000 marks i broke out in a cold sweat the article generated a negative response to say the least. Unflinchingly detain someone should smash your teeth and you just have you no sense of decency you swine. And in you scum bag youll be next like you should be gassed. Preferably with claude rain or fostering best maclow up with a fuss again. The authorities knew that as long as the army of leaders remained in jail there would likely be more terrorist attacks Police Stepped up the search for possible accomplices deportee 30 hyped to buy in awesome violent where i live now police shot and killed a man from scotland because they thought he was linked to the. Whole. Bottom line of it was terrible. For by me. The public pressure brought the defendants and the lawyers closer together andreas bonded demanded the attorneys adopt the aria of scientology and recruit new supporters close correspondent. Is that citizens are unfortunately germanys factious tradition continues to speak for that would be would give often is the chords and the defense lawyers battle to win Public Opinion in the 1970s germanys nazi past was still a major discussion topic and it came up at the trial. We see here there were groups of agitators who it was incredible the defendants and their lawyers contributed a lot to that during the trial and it is a tactic and spatially by guitar escaped there is a notion among leftist groups and they are a after which is part of the left that they are dealing with a fascist system here in west germany if thats money its mitt and its run by former perpetrators blitzer tonight in dahieh and i like it. Now before the sock hop a defense lawyer claimed that one of the judges had a nazi background and said this was a scandal. Used to support a quote going on and us hell front wasnt going to make america high. Dr pointing to the support of korea or. Now before the sock hop a defense lawyer claimed that one of the judges had a nazi background and said this was a scandal. Is the symbol the quote going on when does hell front not and in all that make america to highlight knocked up wincing be to support a korea or international it was clear to us that the judicial systems was full of people who had participated in the nazi regime. And hot water and that you saw more and more of them as you went up the chain of command with joy ficca follow it and dish on better not to make a must. But the claims were unfounded todo a prince in was never a nazi judge in fact prince in convicted several defendants on charges of war crimes including those involved in the massacre of a number of polish academics and their families in the evolve in 1941. So putzing actually worked to bring former nazis to justice. And if i wasnt aware of his previous rulings. Back in the 1st year of the trial alone the lawyers filed 45. 00 complaints of bias against judge brinn singh others criticised him too as well the only focus was always on him its the criticism was quite severe at times and every day from all sides with cole and at the time no other judge attracted so Much Negative Media Attention these constant attacks on the competence of the judges certainly complicated the situation at the trial august 31st not really on how much i have input since sans ecosystems not so im posing should be divisive playing and i was there for you didnt they that have exabyte i mean passage pyramid take badly he wont get it as if you guys already sagging back on vi person spear me take start yelling stuff that was invented by the indecent tone of 80 poser i need you for that you know the Defense Attorneys filed a motion. And then said that their client wanted to confirm this motion person of help to get out from new haven but you never appeared in court. Instead the lawyers criticized German Society and outlined their revolutionary philosophy yeah i was im very high as lawyers it was our job to defend our clients and their rights. D. M. Attached to it or if they wanted to Say Something but couldnt because then it was up to us to do it right yeah of covering a story to that tornado. And she liefeld that they had to do more than just follow that clients orders. But other defense lawyers who identified with the r. A. F. Secretly smuggled messages various kinds of equipment and even weapons into the prison. Just the problem was that there was some defense lawyers who had actually joined the Red Army Faction. F. X. Mickey doggett 1st buggy to more hoped for a half number billy get to mourn how one said the quest solo of firsts in stuttgart with cross milla valor and don is the official home of the Red Army Faction he didnt have. My home from hence lean lead they already have even while they were in prison. They kept in touch through smuggled messages and by korea. And some lawyers set up a messaging system that the r. T. F. Itself late to use. And the feyerick on it was not used as it was intended for the here the info system was quite harmless tom it was meant to be used by the defense team and by all clients if you know him. Im since they were facing long prison sentences if ya. Before they had. The author of this relaxed some of the prisoners jail conditions. To harm them cunts the entire 7th floor belongs to them and they are allowed to be together when the doors are open during the day due to they all have a t. V. And all sorts of conveniences counting on they have a lot of outside support so theyre allowed to read when nobody. To talk to but can we show all that no news and on the 3rd on the. This guy up and demand some is impressive. Sympathies and the r. A. F. Sympathizers and the state both wanted to portray this prison is really tough maybe even extreme the movie your eyes the sympathizers wanted to show that the state was definitely proto fascist if not already fascist many so got under State Government wanted to make it clear that the prison was definitely not a hotel youre fascinated with sometimes when under the sky were here for its all the trial turned the r. A. F. Into a Political Force and the defendants reminded the court of those at every turn for all my know see how im canadian i see choice on the windows or not every make up see it wasnt of new sort and i was on the. If you see gaps the back slave believe that you dont talk to class enemies like representatives of the judicial system you shoot them hes. The arias combat reserves consisted of around a 100 hardcore supporters. Killed open saying was now one of the groups top targets. People which i had. To cave and the police gave us code words to use if we were kidnapped to prove our identity and walk a lot of the. Group of so as a say in. A specific group had planned an assassination. His car was to be blown up within him and. Theyd already planned the route and the day and intact. But the attack on pushing never took place a remote detonate a failed the ari have had tried once before to kill a judge in 972 votes going blood and bag only just avoided being assassinated his wife was badly wounded. They are after a while dominated judge brinn singhs private life. Now and palin actually fought all the time we argued and debated. And perhaps im used to our efforts to get a rise out of my father once in a while. To. Hind prisoners and their sympathizers shared the same set of rules. Discovered northpoint at a firehouse when you were either friend or foe if you deviated from the political line or if you had questions or doubts you were out they threatened you to be and then they tossed you out in this negotiation up to show even murder and ensuing put pressure on the mind of who was psychologically stable. During the trial might of seemed to make a cry for help. He flogs be kind and he would not talk of hunger then used youth to have been through a candy im going to im going on the 3rd 4th and thats as unfair and. In the me he kind of has another thought sean. Absolute. Went up and down and so i know there is this man says all my gods are my brains and i got the same kind of pattern and the lightest touch stylus is pushed and i didnt understand that word at the time the defendant said a lot that you couldnt understand when you were stunned that when i saw a moment of went out on the stroke of the concrete wall with a hand that. I almost felt like crying that 1st line. Of mine of hanged herself in her so im a the 9th 1976. The r. A. F. Now had a 2nd maga after the whole of the months and i said to tell you i had lunch with my father and i was really upset about my half the day before my attitude was like how could you couldnt. Already have supporters were convinced that my hope was murdered but the trial continued without interruption michaels name was simply removed from the list of defend. Going out on porch discovering the laws then the defendants demanded a break in the trial opposing the cons so that they could properly grieve for mine whole but we knew from material taken from the jail cells that her colleagues put such pressure on her that she was driven into this unfortunate situation and get the hang tuah is thin and so he can mislead his into its own some people believe that they are of needed martyrs like mind of and that the state had no intention of conducting a fair trial they thought that the governments goal was to destroy the r. F. I was torn between the 2 sides i could see things from the judges point of view even though i identified more with the defendants sometimes i switched sides from one moment to the next it was a complete madhouse. Of one has been hit and the courtroom proceedings also took a toll on judge prince ings nerves he hadnt expected a trial like this. I dont think he was quite up to the challenge you couldnt impose a workable structure that was difficult with those defendants and their attorneys and still a judge has to impose some structure on a truck or hell do it it was monday for me it was more than cleansing allowed himself get bogged down in the petty details and he can discus you on anger less prints he made mistakes and in january 977. 00 he even considered quitting the trial and in colleagues i discussed it with a colleague the aggravation just wasnt worth it the atmosphere was oppressive i realize that the trial had taken a lot out of me. But before he could jump the defense lawyers pushed him. Then from front of the judge to your dock wincing quit the trial on january 20th 977 after the fence attorneys felt their 85th complained of bias against him. I felt sorry for him but i also said thank god thats over. By. Princelings deputy aber hot food took his place. Behind told him that he often tried to see the good side of label and that was a mistake scooter image and he thought he could discuss things rationally with an equally them and them full name 50 but he couldnt do that but some of the people in that courtroom later acquitted him so ill do it in the day couldnt produce neat. And he said he and he let the defendant speak but made it clear that he was not going to engage in extensive political debates. I think that led to a certain objectification of the trial if you can call them that in mid march 977 there was a new development the authorities had violated the rules of Attorney Client privilege. Dumbass ations between the bottom line of rope and their lawyers were recorded as soon as that information became public the trial was adjourned at the request of the defense team and its ok on phone tucked in near it in a state that values the rule of law the integrity of defense counsel is essential this is sec religious its criminal this trial is essentially a place to see if he needs to meet leaker i thought it couldnt be done i seriously thought about giving up the bikini he twice and so. On april the 7th 1977 an area of gunman shot and killed germanys attorney general siegfried. Pitts are 2 places bluebox car was stopped at a traffic lodging cons war driver was also killed the passenger later died of his wounds the murders pushed the wiretapping case off the front pages of the trial resume the verdict was announced on april the 28th minute if you could have heard a pin drop in the courtroom as the presiding judge spoke the defendants have been found guilty on 4 counts of murder numerous attempted murder bombing attacks and forming a criminal organization of the Court Sentences all 3 of you to life in prison and finally got your Research Money we discussed the verdict and decided that it was correct were going maine coon please get frightened and we kept a person who is not a legal expert could look at this case and accept the good it was but if you are a legal expert and. Youre familiar with the trial you realize that it was a disgrace and shaniqua vs. The trial was complicated that was the wiretapping controversy and the defendants and the lawyers kept making political speeches. And boy the are getting the verdict was intended to serve justice and restore a certain level of come to society he used to but the verdict had the opposite effect the remaining members of the r. Abstract up that campaign of domestic terrorism in september 977 they kidnapped house martin trial a Business Executive and industry representative and demanded the release of the sham im presents. You know toba the Palestinian Group hijacked a lot of times a passenger jet took 86. 00 passengers hostage and also demanded the prisoners release. A west German Federal police unit rescue the hostages on october the 18th bottle and sting and rasper were found dead in the prison cells. The defendants lawyers had appealed the courts verdict so technically speaking the ruling was never implemented. That is the supremes irony of this case which caused such deep divisions in west German Society. Is a constant of tylenol interested in fires back then there was sharply defined concepts of right and wrong good and bad true and false and black and white does. Thats only in the late 1990 s. Did people start asking questions as coming out yesterday and it annoyance koala when you saw it it people are more careful today weve learned that the legal system alone cant fight terrorism. It also needs to be addressed the political yes poor leadership. There must be a very deliberate strategy of deescalation the escalades one study it of the arias trial had a profound effect on judge brinn singh. I think it has caused a great deal of stress in my life. Even 10 years later he was still having a lot of trouble with and offish like i dont think he ever talk to anyone about it not even my mother. He worked through it on his own meticulous. Gabriella wincing never actively supported the r. F. But for some time after the trial she remained captivated by the organization abbotts ideology. Both in your mind if i spent 15 years dealing with that sort of garbage having made it so much i think like it. And im often ashamed of that. I should have come to the conclusion much earlier than out of that and although these people were human beings and had a radical and idealistic philosophy. They were still killers didnt to feel and i mean its kind of that should have been the bottom line for me. In april 998 more than 20 years after the stomach im verdict the road army faction formally announced that it had dissolved itself. Kickoff special. 6 times undefeated european champions World Championships and the olympic victory the German National soccer team but its a. Good song. Im told story germanys womenfolk post soon said. Pick up. The minutes on d w. Borrowing. Symbol of a long conflict in the philippines. Between the muslims and the christian population. As fighters occupied the city center and the. President to turn. The better it will never again will hold. The reconquest turned into tragedy. This is not the kind of freedom that we want. To become a deep way to islamize terror i think is more severe as a result of an exclusive report from a destroyed city. Philippines in the. Starts may 28th on the d w. Place. Blame. This is deja vu news live from berlin new safety precautions at the white house those working for us President Donald Trump in the works west wing have been ordered to wear face masks this after 2 Staff Members test positive for a covert 19 sending a number of Staff Members into quarantine also coming up. The wrong