Probation member of Hong Kongs Legislative Council and deputy and Chinas National Peoples Congress he says the log needs clarification so why does he still support. Michael keenan welcome to conflict zone thank you. Hong kong has started off this new year with mass arrests 53. 00 prodemocracy politicians and activists detained on the grounds of subversion under the new National Security law the move has been condemned by the worlds leading democracy has Rights Groups law associations as being nothing more than a crackdown is hong kong witnessing a dismantling of its freedoms and its opposition. Well i do think so 1st of all just like you were never deals in the world we are busy fighting the pandemic certainly the massive arrests that happened earlier this year is about a primary being held last year it involving 5060 people who participated in the primaries in preparation for last years election ok so so for the reasons of brother or sister the primary involves a lot of candidates whose election platform. Avali. Article 22. 00 of the National Security law which is to paralyze the government to stop everything from functioning to basically oppose every single funding and bill regardless of its nature or come to a large goal let me ask you a little bit more about about about what has prompted these arrests because actually this is what has shocked so many about these latest arrests. Has been the offense which has been considered subversion as youve articulated last summer the prodemocracy opposition the united to decide who might stand for elections they essentially organize themselves on the organized a primary they were hoping to go for a majority in the Legislative Council theyve been arrested and heres how the International Community is reacting to those arrests we have the incoming u. S. Secretary of state saying the following the arrest warrant assault on those bravely advocating for universal rights. We have the office of the un high commissioner for human rights saying these latest arrests indicates that as had been feared the offense of subversion under the National Security law is indeed being used to detain individuals for exercising a legitimate rights to participate in political and public life so in other words in a democracy this would be seen as standard politics but in hong kong it gets you arrested is that not disturbing to you ok now you are doing let me share with you the background of this now then you have to give me some time the National Security involves article 20 which relates to secession in other words going for it but independence in that particular law is returned very clearly that anybody showing a motive to do that would be deemed to have violated the law however. With regard to our to go 22. 00 of the National Security bureau which is not a session going for independence or hong kong but merely to topple the government to paralyze the legislature to vote no to everything gaining control of registration and all of that there is an extra clause or condition to that which is that they have to do it through a lawful means no personally i dont think holding a primary thats unlawful. So therefore if the primary in north people whos perform are going for home going to pendants yes that would violate article 20 which would mean we were. Primary its so dangerous the close to voting to a National Survey of bill however none of the candidates that ended up running really have hong kong independence as a powerful however a lot of them have perform basic come in and vote no to everything and paralyze the government however there has to be coupled with a more for me not a question that i have been asking is used to prying me its over nor for now i dont think so right so little as if all the police making the arrests did therefore the police making arrests is really the 1st step and then stay so im going to start a medal for practices so in other words mr teen youre calling for clarification essentially but you know id like to look at some of the concerns that have been had and for example this is coming from the European Council they have actually said these arrests penalize political activity that should be entirely legitimate as as ive already highlighted they say the National Security law is being used seran enemy appears or listen in hong kong and you may have the title of our political pluralism in hong kong the European Parliament at this point is calling on countries to consider sanctions against targeted officials and hong kong the us has already imposed targeted sanctions as a result of these arrests it doesnt get much more serious than that and what you are calling for is just a clarification you. Know let me respond. They make all these arrests and everybody is out on bail secondly the government the secretary for justice has not human stop prosecuting anyone let alone that it may end up going to a court order not to be convicted or acquitted so disses simply the very 1st step they are arrested on the basis of of suspicion all virally think and i decode 22 of the National Security wall people going to arrested and they are all released on bail on the basis of suspicion of while eating the National Security law now let me assure. Every country in the world the most democratic of the democracies Police Arrest people no arrest people and eventually they are all off the hook and prostitution dont move dont move in government lose face all the prosecutor comes in and they lose all these cases in court also the government would lose face this is simply the very 1st step and the whole world is now jumping on hong kong saying were we dont have freedom were going to hide in the crazy this and that the world to get a job always heard represent him go down this road towards the russians simply the 1st step they are all released on bail here is what Human Rights Watch has and what remains to be seen what is important is that what specific charge. Coming through and do they go according to. Their National Security law mr t. In the world as has been warning that this is in fact the 1st step toward repression in fact there were warnings that this would happen for example from Human Rights Watch who said that the hong kong authorities with chinas backing are imposing mainland style repression on a city long recognized for its freedoms they say hong kongs new security legislation is nothing more than a roadmap for repression joe these latest arrests prove those warnings true ok so your view one might want to opinion the whole world is overreacting and im supposed to be the most liberal of the pro give beijing camp. Membership the whole world is over reacting there you go you may know the details of these arrests or what its all above. Just like supporters of volatile him in the us but how about the hong kong governments promise that this law would be used to target only a minority of people mr t. And i mean kerry lam she she went on the air waves she actually spoke before the United Nations saying it would only target an extremely small minority of people who have breached the law while the life the property of the basic rights and freedoms of the overwhelming majority of hong kong residents will be protected thats a message that you amplified that that you echoed for various journalistic publications tell me mr t. You did you get it wrong the system seem like just a small minority of people who have been targeted these are the leaders of the prodemocracy movement the main figures more than 50 people rounded up mass arrests why would you do not believe them because theyve arrested only 50 people and most likely a lot of them would never be charged the key is that the who will be charged and on what basis dont we all have the patience to listen and see anymore dont we are we all just getting super hyped and super sensitive these are people that join a primary thats the only common factor among them they are now looking into each of them where in their. Journey towards participating in the primary. Later and the section all of the National Security or one of the key suspicion is Foreign Government funding to fund the primary now if they can prove that then its a whole new different matter ok so you say let the progress really is targeted towards Foreign Government funding local opposition to right the National Government im calling isnt that so you say lets not thats playing out with me about the merits of the National Security law or not thats a different issue i dont think thats the purpose of todays interview right sentencing of prodemocracy activists for example and politicians joshua long and agnes chow and ivan lamb back in December Agassi calls it a warning shot for anyone who dares to openly criticize the government that they could be next they say incitements which is what they were charged with and sentence on refers to the use of a megaphone to shout slogans during a protest is hong kong really afraid of people with megaphones is is that what its come to in any country the likes of georgia and war will be charged with treason he is actually going to Foreign Government to ask them to sanction his own country you dont call that. I dont i dont know what you call a day thats absolutely being totally non patriotic ok and thats. Unthinkable. Have you ever thought of that what of an american goes or china and china to censure the u. S. Or any german legislator going to china and asking trying to censure in germany because theyre not happy with what the German Government is doing how would you react to that lets just stay on track here and i mean that is not what he was convicted of we have to say and also in order to say on track id also like to ask you because the National Security law is not the only action we know that was recently handed down by beijing which essentially bypassed the Hong Kong Legislature in november for opposition members were expelled from the legislature for in danger and National Security the Chinese Parliament cleared the way for the disqualification with the tragedy of a resolution allowing hong kong which is definitely theirs deemed as a threat to security or not holding allegiance to hong kong was that a dark day for democracy and hong kong you said they experienced some legislators know the opposition could to indo own. Free will for disqualified because they were disqualified before the last election so they no longer serve in the chorus. They no longer serve in a Legislative Council thats 15 they no longer serve in the Legislative Council because they were kicked out they were disqualified. There were 4 incumbent there just later who entered the greys and were disqualified from the race for this term so were their disqualification from entering the race carries through through this extended term this is the decision of the National Peoples congress the rest of the opposition designed to retire resign all of their own free will i keep asking them to stay in because actually i really enjoy having them in there just danger because they were probably along more question announcers monitoring scrutiny in government those but they decided to give up and we were not sure why they were just 5 mr team but you know critics what they are pointing to here and what is so concerning to so many is the lack of due process for these lawmakers the hong kong people there are those who just want a mystery in the harkonnen garden of a slice on the basis of going to see a revolving mr team stripping the 4 legislators who have usually said i feel like theres really an individual your wife is interviewing office determined exclusively by the executive by the chief executive terry lam and without affording them an opportunity to be heard violates the basic principles of fairness and due process inheritance in the rule of law again this is coming from the Hong Kong Bar Association so no anyone can be dismissed simply at the whim of the chief executive isnt that a troubling sign for basic rights in hong kong where is the due process mr team for the 4 lawmakers before lawmakers there were disqualified were disqualified on the basis or de mint with Foreign Government but where is the due process can they appeal that decision. They cannot have of course these are actually can appeal you know they can appeal that decision and it will go through the court yes absolutely we do have due process and that the loosest bickering going to be a puke or and a big boost because go to the court of appeal yes they havent done that thats nothing wrong thats not what the Hong Kong Bar Association says they said that Legal Certainty has been greatly impaired that it introduces an entirely different way to disqualify a legislator outside of article 17 outside of article 79 and without due process. And id like to add in that congressman i tell you because the greek word the Hong Kong Bar Association they tend to generalize about everything these 4 legislators that would disqualify definitely can and should pugh and i think one or 2 of them would probably win the appeal so yes then let me ask you as a follow up how do you put they should put their government to test about this kind of disqualification please understand i am not totally behind government disqualifying these people all the grounds are specific. Allegations that they make ok because these people have not been friends through their games were invented by the government are you going to see them for their good friends trying things in their government in the court and i think they are doing that and i dont know you know when thats going to happen i think we should all we can see mr see another home government may know when order time mr t. Another point that you know has concerned some is the language that has been used by the chief executive and in the wake of the dismissal of these lawmakers she said the following we need to have a political body which is composed of patriots she said she was excited that bills will pass more efficiently at the legislature in the future it seems as if. There is no room for differing or opposing views and voices anymore in the Legislative Council how does that serve the people of hong kong. Thats a very good thats a very good question let me answer that objectively. If the t. V. Executive basically want to ram everythings through lets go to save time. And the 1st to come out and condemn her for making that statement ok simply to make sure everything goes through minimized the questions ok and passed 1000000000. 00 funding barrow within an hour or 2 all right if you look at whats happening in the largest city council over the last 4 years were trying to elect a chairman of the House Committee and thats been stopped for over 9 months to a year and no bill can never go to lets go theres the other extreme or putting everything to a stop. What are you think carrie let me say is that these people who are running for office in their goal ok because scrutinize the bill they need to be smart enough intelligent enough to come up with questions dont make sense so filibustering is an art you dont filibuster by repeating the same thing for you know 3 months but mr t. You have a reason and you turn into government i support and ive been doing that myself sometimes government thing i asked too many questions are no ok i came asking a bar dont repeat the same questions 10 times for new times and thats what the or bush sr were doing at one point i think thats what kerry was talking about and there are concerns as we have mentioned that there is an attempt now to neutralize in fact the opposition in order to have things run more smoothly for the probation side for example the decision to postpone elections by a year. Into Human Rights Watch has said the following about that theyve said that in november 29000 prodemocracy candidates won local elections overwhelmingly that electoral showing seems to be why they have alleged kerry lambs government has disqualified prodemocracy candidates for Hong Kongs Legislative Council and in any event postponed those elections for a year they write what a better way to neutralize the power of hong kongs example than by pretending that the citys prodemocracy movement is the result of nefarious foreign influences was postponing the election and attempt to neutralize the opposition another great question. If. Covert 19 is not an act of god and there is proof that there is a massive conspiracy behind the 93. 00 somebody somewhere invented to mess up the whole world with the sole purpose of stalking stopping homegrown Legislative Council election from going wrong then i would be very rare to hear the evidence of that but mr t. And that is no of people there is a last minute comes to the wash down they have to look at it and justification and we have a justification of coronavirus and they point to nearby countries for example singapore and south korea which both are recently held successful general elections without registering a spike in covert 19 cases on the same side they look for example at the disapproval ratings of kerry lamb which most recently stood at 72 percent and so now the elections get postponed that doesnt look good does it 1st of all its due to the pandemic and then you said well we need countries of dependency yes half of the world has. The elections. On the mail in basis right in hong kong we have a problem because a lot of our residents are voters theres been some junk across the border and because of the pandemic we are pouring tea issues and basically the border was stopped so a lot of these voters were deprived of the right to vote you mentioned in the beginning of our conversation that you did not feel that freedoms were under fire due to the National Security law but id like to just point out another example to you and this is when it comes to freedom of speech and freedom of the press critics say there has been a swift crackdown they point to the arresting of a respected reporter who produced reporting critical of the police limiting of press cards forcing news organizations to surrender materie. Ells related to prodemocracy candidates arresting the head of the popular apple daily jimmy lie denying visas for no reasons to reporters critical of beijing just a few examples here freedom of the press is a casualty of the National Security law your rendition about the arrest of mr jim you lie mr jim youre right has been behind a major push ok to get Foreign Governments involved in funding opposition there could release in hong kong in mine my mr july is not making positive contribution toward the country to assist them all right i dont want to be the judge but i dont have any sympathy for him if hes arrested you may think here is a great democracy fighting. For a king for democracy is one thing going through Foreign Government known for its sanctions to put pressure on baby jane or to act differently about hong kong is Something Else they are basically violating the basic law the 1st article which is hong kong is part of china and you will never achieve mr t. Id like to ask you just briefly before we go claudia moe is an opposition lawmaker in hong kong said that the aim of chinas National Security legislation was to stun the hong kong into nothingness people will be so petrified so frightened so intimidated that they wouldnt dare say anything or do anything in opposition you have articulated here that you are one of the more liberal members of the pro beijing camp you have sometimes spoken out against the government do you personally have to watch what you say how worried are you. Let me be very honest with you i dont want to be personal about needs ok so please spare me from commenting about my impression of josh korder law or in fact georgia law whatever. My honest opinion. Is that yes theres been a tightening of freedom to express views particularly when it comes to hong kong. Gaining some kind of a greater control over it so thats the neat right. That anybody can nominate to run for chief executive and the against basic law so all im saying is that anybody comes up with any kind of claim that goes against the basic law yes the freedom to express such views is much less today than before because of the National Security bill we have to get there that i agree michael thank you so much for joining us on conflicts out. Images from the warsaw ghetto secretly filmed and released for the 1st time. They include disturbing footage taken from the jewish district during the nazi occupation of poland. Their documents of horror. And memorials of an unprecedented genocide. The warsaw ghetto. In 15 minutes on d w. I i dont need to keep a day available both for over a mention on the force im from the whole of the most recently that they came up with at least the bottom of the valets at the last in training this word has called the hard 2 years. In the army of climate change. Because i mean its too. Much too soon people. Want to do years do they have their future. Cut. D. W. Dot com so can make us even though nothing good. Could come to. The power of foreigners. But i come from i never saw the sun when it comes to. Having gone up in brazil. Sun was always a man since the point of his word for sun its masculine and when i moved to germany as a 10 year old i want to come to him on t. V. That would change how i see the world because into a month the son of his family didnt. Seem in the aisle but the side of a good listener so i read the part of the tale instead of a deep voice extra when the guy seemed absolutely incredible. I realized how language shapes and thinking how definitions are not only a mental image just put our whole perception of the role. Is inside save my life and was one of the reasons i became a journalist im a storyteller and i use my words to help with Intercultural Understanding my name is the one where you and i work at it obviously. This is d w news live from berlin a crime that shocked germany a politician shot in the head in cold blood now a verdict is due in the trial of a neo nazi accused of assassinating boston looked at 2 years ago. Also coming up nationwide protests in poland as a near total ban on abortions comes into effect