A murder gone wrong . Or something much closer to home . Screaming after screaming. I need a lawyer. You guys are just trying to torture me. The evidence pointed out that shes the one that did it. I know how it looks, but i was also tied up. Knowing my parents, my mother and her limb nations, it was crazy. Nothing points to sandy, nothing at all. I was waiting for that moment, the lover, the affair, the 2 million Life Insurance policy. Do you think your mother is a murderer . Bob rough has made a career out of americas obsession with violent crime. The killer comes out with blood all over him. That indicates the kilr believ t dy murder scenes. This former small town fire chief now attracts an audience of a quarter million listeners. This really seems like a case of actual innocence. We do a crowdsourced reinvestigation of cases. A quarter of a Million People working together and investigating them as one streaming unit. And we can accomplish some amazing things. Reporter and he gets results. He helped get this guy patrolled out of a texas state prison where he spent 20 years of a 99year sentence. I think without bob and the listeners, to this day we would be sitting in prison. Reporter it didnt take long for bob ruff to be deluged with requests for help. We get on an average month, probably a couple of dozen cases pitched to us through our case submission email. And if we announce that were looking for a new case, that number can climb into the hundreds. Reporter out of those hundreds of emails, one story grabbed his attention. It was about a family shattered by one of the most bizarre crimes hed ever heard of. We screened it, started gathering investigation, getting documents, reaching out to the d. A. Within two months, we were rolling with episode one. Reporter its a case of murder that, five years later, is still highly controversial, when bob ruff starts to peel back the layers. Jaime estuardo melgar was born on august 10th, 1960, in guatemala. When he was just 3 years old, he immigrated to the united states. Jaime was known to be very intelligent and quick with a joke. And his charms werent lost on young sandy mcculloch. Reporter these High School Sweethearts were soon married. Jim finds work as an i. T. Specialist. Sandy, as a nurse. And together, they join the jehovahs witnesses, an austere christian sect that demands strict rules of behavior. Their daughter lizz is now in her late 20s. What was it like growing up as the only child in the melgar family . You know, i always had a lot of love and attention. I think i mightve taken that for granted as a teenager when, you know, you go through your rebellious years. Reporter lizzs cousin marissa remembers looking up to them as role models when she went to visit. Sandy and jim were just very loving towards each other, respectful. You could just tell they always had each others back. They were always helping each other out. I liked watching them together. Reporter as daughter lizz grew up, she became especially close to her mom, sandy. What was her personality like, in general . Shes just very caring and loving and nurturing. She was also a lot of fun. She knew how to joke around, tell a good joke. You know, i just felt like she was the embodiment of a mother, just the kind of person that you would picture when you think of that word. She was just such a loving person. Reporter but sandy is also a very ill person, suffering through hip replacements, hypothyroidism, lupus, and epilepsy. As a kid, you knew your mom was sick. Mmhmm. Reporter did you know she had lupus and epilepsy . She had epilepsy before i was born. And the lupus didnt come until i was about 3. I remember that because she had to seek treatment for about six weeks. She had gone paralyzed on one side of her body. She was in a wheelchair. She was having a really hard time. Reporter more and more, sandy is leaning on the support of her husband. But jims niece marisa says he never complained. In sickness and in health was a vow they lived by. I dont think that sandy and my uncle jim ever really got distant. If anything, i think their, you know, relationship just grew stronger and stronger. Reporter its a foggy night in houston in 2012. And Sandra Melgar is feeling pretty good on this night, so she and her husband jim decide to go out for a celebratory dinner. Its their 32nd anniversary. What shes told me was that they were gonna go out to dinner. They were going to their favorite mexican place that they go almost every weekend. And they stopped by a local cvs just to grab some drink mixers on their way back home. They got home. They started getting drinks ready. They got into the jacuzzi in their bathroom. They spent a few hours in there. Just this and that, chitchat. Suddenly, the melgars four dogs started barking in the backyard. So jim got out of the tub to bring the pups inside. Sandy continued to soak. The jets roaring, as the water massaged her, for about 5 to 15 minutes. I think he took a few minutes, so she decided to get out of the jacuzzi. She went to her closet, sat on her chair that she has in her closet, and started putting lotion on. Reporter thats the last thing that sandy says she remembers that night. The next afternoon is a planned family gettogether. Jims brother herman and his family show up at about 4 30. A little behind schedule, as usual. Here we are, running late. And he would always make fun of us for that, heres the melgar family, always running late. We knocked on the front door, and no one came to open it. All we heard was the dogs barking. I was telling my dad i remember clearly telling him this doesnt feel right. Reporter what marissa and her family are about to see will haunt them forever. 17 stab wounds, 14 cutting wounds, and 20 blunt force wounds. These wounds would take time to kill. Reporter stay with us. Reporter jim and sandy melgar, toasting 32, apparently, happy years together. Dinner out, followed by romance in the jacuzzi. But, saturday night becomes sunday afternoon, and their tidy brick home in suburban houston is about to reveal a grim secret and a puzzling mystery. When no one answers the doorbell, jims brother herman enters the house through an overhead garage door someone had left wide open. He continues through an unlocked interior door and into the house, unlocking the front door for the others. At first there is only the yapping of the four dogs, but then, from deep in the dim house, comes a feeble reply. I heard someone say, help, help it was sandras voice. I began to think of the worst. My heart dropped. I knew something was wrong. My dad, he immediately just sprang into action. Reporter herman follows the cry for help through the house, to the master bedroom, into the master bath. Sandys cries for help were coming from inside the bathroom walkin closet. Reporter podcaster bob ruff. The scene looked like something you would see in the movies. A chair was propped up against the door, holding it shut from the outside. He grabs the chair, moves it out from under the doorknob, and slides it to the side so he can open the door. And when he opened it he saw sandy lying there, tied up. She was on the floor, with her hands tied behind her, well tied. And her legs, too. Her arms are behind her back, but her arms were like this, and the bindings were wrapped multiple times around her forearms. Herman tries to untie sandys bindings from her arms, and he cant seem to find where the knots at. Ar the closet. M that theres a he grabs the scissors, starts cutting her out of the bindings. Reporter sandy seems groggy, but shes alive and apparently unharmed. But her husband jim has suffered a far more devastating fate. Jim was found nude and beaten and stabbed to death in the master bedroom closet which is about 30 feet away from where she was at. Reporter his legs are tied with telephone cord. A rope is loosely tied around his chest. Hes got a lot of defensive wounds on both hands, which means hes trying to either disarm the attacker or block the assault. Reporter Celestina Rossi is a crime scene investigator who helped authorities investigate the case. In her opinion, jim and his assailant were locked in handtohand mortal combat right here in his bedroom closet. Its my opinion that the assault, and his death, occurred in the closet. Reporter aside from the 31 cuts and stabs, jim was badly beaten in the face and head, causing serious damage to his skull, brain, and facial bones. Reporter it just sounds like a horrifically violent and bloody crime scene. This was an ugly murder. This is a murder on a man that was fighting with everything he had, fighting for his life. Hes grabbing ahold of the killers wrists, hes hitting them. Jim is blocking them, and grabbing them, and hes stopping them from ever getting a full penetration into him. And again, all of these injuries, none of them are immediately incapacitating, so this just dragged on and on. Reporter when sandy is freed from the closet and sees jims body, the family says she becomes hysterical. Sandy was very upset. She was crying uncontrollably. But my mom was holding her back. Reporter there is one question hanging over the crime scene. What the hell happened . Im sorry, i dont know if this is supposed to say that, but thats what i was thinking. I was thinking what, what could have happened here . I dont who could have done this to them . Reporter detectives and crime scene investigators swarm all over the melgar home, taking photos and video, trying to answer that question, who could have done this . Floating in that jacuzzi tub where sandy says she and jim spent some of the last moments of his life, a ghostly article of clothing a white blouse. Also glinting in the bathwater, very much out of place, a kitchen knife, which authorities believe was used to inflict many of jims wounds. How to explain this horrifying mayhem . Was it burglars, a Home Invasion . Sure looks like it. Drawers pulled out, jewelry e ns jims wallet and sandys purse dumped on the bed. And in the closet where jims body was found, two items of special interest, a locked safe, and hidden on a shelf behind hanging clothes, jims loaded gun. There was a loaded gun in the closet where he was found. It was located where he was found, directly above his head. p where he had grabbed the closet rod, the shelf in the shirt sleeve that was right there in front of the gun. He just never, sadly, never quite got to it. Reporter podcaster bob ruff says those items could indicate robbers were trying to get jim to open the safe, or that he was fighting to reach his gun to fend them off. Jim melgar, as is the expression in texas, went out with his boots on. He did not go down without a fight. Reporter the gun, the safe, the ransacked rooms, sandy bound hand and foot, barricaded in a closet. The crime scene seems to be telling a story. Antectivt to he survived the brutal attack has to say. Sandy had survived. She could at least give him a description of the offenders who had tied her up. Do you know what has happened today . My husband was murdered. How . I dont know. And thats where things really began to break bad for sandy melgar. Reporter stay with us. You discover paint bleed you under your tape. Not with frogtape frogtape is the only painters tape treated with patented paintblock technology. 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But later, ruff can be found giving his grey matter a work out in his studio as he and his producer, mike bussing, puzzle over the subject of their latest podcast episodes, the melgar case. We began this season with a story, because thats all we had. Reporter remember, it was on an afternoon just before christmas, 2012, that 52yearold jamie melgar was found brutally stabbed to death in the bedroom closet of his suburban houston home. Luckily, detective carrizal must have thought they had at least have an eyewitness. Sandy had survived. She could at least give him a description of the offenders who had tied her up. And thats where things really began to break bad for sandy melgar. Reporter just hours after her husbands body was discovered, sandy melgar finds herself face to face with two detectives. Lets start from the morning when you woke up today. Where were you at . Today . Yes. In the closet. Reporter during her twohour police interview, sandy seems dazed and distraught. In an unsteady voice, she relays what she says happenedtoat ugstto binks after arriving at home, she said she and jim undressed and got into the jacuzzi. How long were yall sitting there talking . Id say about two hours. What were yall talking about . The years weve had, about my daughter, about his job. Any disagreement . No, no. Reporter sometime after midnight, sandy tells detectives that her husband heard their dogs barking and got out of the jacuzzi to let them inside. It was taking a while, so i got out and got changed in my closet. I went in there and i started to change and thats all i remember until i woke up. Reporter sandy says she saw nothing and heard nothing, and she blames her minds blank slate on her epilepsy, saying she must have had a seizure. I usually cant move. I hurt all over and my head hurts. How often do you have seizures like that . Ive been getting them more lately. Im not able to drive anymore. How frequent . At least once a month, maybe. Reporter sandys daughter lizz says it wasnt unusual for her mother to experience epileptic seizures. Did you ever see your mother have a seizure . Yeah, i did, several times. Reporter what does it look like . Its violent, and its scary, especially if youve never seen one before. When she comes to, you help her into bed or help her off the floor, wherever she is. Reporter but the detectives clearly arent buying sandys account of blacking out during the vicious attack. Well, isnt it ironic that you black out that exact time when hes getting stabbed, and bludgeoned . I dont have an answer for you. Multiple times like that. Dying. Screaming for help. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I dont understand that. That doesnt sound right to me. Reporter could you see why they thought it might be her . I could see that. I could definitely see that. It does, it sounds crazy if you dont know her situation or even if youre not familiar with what epilepsy looks like. But knowing my parents, knowing my mother and her limitations, it was just crazy. Reporter the detectives relentlessly turned the screws on sandy, pressing her on whether there was bad blood between her and her husband. Was your husband abusive towards you . No. We got along fine. Ask all of my friends. We got along great. Did you stage that at your house, maam . Stage it . Yeah. Did you plan this . No, no, i did not. Would you tell me if you did . I wouldnt even know where to start, to stage it. And how am i gonna tie myself up like that . And not even be able to get out of it . Reporter but after sandy refuses to immediately take a Lie Detector Test im so stressed now. I cant even think straight. Reporter it appears the cops arent looking at her as a grieving spouse. They think shes a black widow. When you see your mothers interrogation tape, what does it make you think . It just makes me think that there were these two Police Officers who got tunnel vision as soon as they walked into the door and their sole purpose was just to find a way to bring charges on my mother. Its not really an interrogation. Its just trying to find out what happened. What do you know . She was the only one in the house. I dont think it was confrontational at all. I mean, one of the Police Officers is mimicking my dad calling her for help. Screaming after screaming after screaming. Hes in pain. I need help. E, sandy, i need help. I didnt hear anything. Just stop already. I need help, sandy. I need help. Help me. Thats it. Thats it. I need a lawyer. Im not talking anymore. Because you guys are just trying to torture me here. Did you kill your husband . No, i didnt. Well be back. Reporter while the interview may be over, shes far from out of the investigators crosshairs. Clearly, the evidence pointed out that shes the one that did it. Reporter coming up, did sandy melgar, a petite woman who suffers from lupus and epilepsy and walks with a cane, stab her husband to death and then walk away without a single drop of blood on her . Are you saying that the homicide detectives and the prosecution have pinned this murder on sandy melgar simply because it was the expedient thing to do . A prosecutor tying herself in knots to prove her case. When 20 20 continues. Reporter sandy melgars family says within a matter of hours, she goes from wife to window to prime suspect in the brutal beating and stabbing of her husband. Their niece, marissa campos, says the very evening the crime is discovered, it is immediately obvious detectives are laser focused on a single suspect. No manhunt, no mystery, in their eyes, she says, jim melgars its sandy. Just all their questions seemed to be pointing towards her. It seemed like they just jumped straight to, how was their relationship like . Was he abusive . They were pointing the finger at sandy. Did you love your husband . Yes, i loved my husband. Did you want us to find the killer . Of course. I dont think you do. Reporter those detectives interviewing sandy just cant accept that she could be oblivious as her husband is being murdered in the next room. Youre in the house, and your husbands in the house, and your husbands dead. I know that. I know how it looks. But i was also tied up. Reporter but podcaster bob ruff says he doesnt see sandy as a solid suspect. I just kept waiting for that moment of, theres the lover, thethaffair, theres the 2 million Life Insurance policy. And it wasnt there. Reporter even the authorities, it appears, might agree. At least, at first. The detectives interviewing sandy take a break to wake up a prosecutor in the middle of the night. But no charges, no handcuffs. Sandy is free to go. She moves on, trying to pick up the pieces. Enjoying time with her daughter and the growing family her husband jim never got to meet. A year and a half after the murder of her father, lizz learns of a major break in the case. A grand jury indictment. Her mother. There was a warrant out for her arrest. We called the lawyer and we had her turn herself in. I was very surprised. I jumped out of bed. I went to go tell my parents, what is happening. We were all just in shock. Reporter in spite of the murder charges, sandy is out on around in 2017, prosecutor Colleen Barnett has a challenge. Proving that sandy ended decades of apparently happy marriage with that kitchen knife. And barnett admits, she cant say why. In texas we dont have to prove a motive. I thought that i was going to be able to prove that she did what she did, that i wouldnt be able to prove motive. That raised red flags for me. This woman doesnt seem like she could be a killer, but the Prosecutor Says she is the killer, but we dont know why. Reporter barnett says a possible motive came to her in the middle of the trial. And it wasnt until the jehovahs witnesses testified from the defense and i learned a little bit about the religion that i thought possibly that might have been part of it. Reporter defense witnesses say the melgars appeared to have had a good marriage. Nevertheless, barnett conjures a theory. Sandy wants a divorce, but, afraid of being shunned by her fellow jehovahs witnesses, rd donts. At a unown. E ill nev waityou hearn band. Orteut if th barnurth ndy lured mi her tie his legs with telephone cord, perhaps as some sort of sex game. Then, all of a sudden, she pulls out a large kitchen knife and starts stabbing him. I mean, just think about what his response would be. Total surprise. Hes just trying to defend himself. And she keeps coming, and shes stabbing him. She stabbed him multiple times. I think, probably, he just backed up into the closet as opposed to trying to hurt her, because that was his wife. Reporter as for all that ecor ss itevasion, the happened. The ransacking looks staged, she says. Drawers still neatly arranged, drawers. One of the drawers that was open had a camera in it. They had bicycles. There were prescription drugs. There were Electronic Devices that were there. It was a treasure trove of things to be stolen. And nothing was taken that liz could account for. Reporter sandys defense attorneys, mac secrest and his niece allison, say there are things missing from the house. And that ransacking doesnt always look like a hollywood movie. They tried to leave the impression with the jury that for it to be a Home Invasion robbery, then you have to come in and you have to literally destroy everything. And if theres an open drawer, you gotta pull it out, you gotta turn it upside down, throw it on the ground. Reporter then theres the question of blood. Everyone agrees the killer probably would have been bloodied in the death struggle with jim. But sandys hands are clean. And theres no sign anyone washed up in the house. If im the killer, i gotta wash myself off. Where do i do that . When you go into the bathrooms and the bathtubs, his blood is not there. So if shes the killer, where is his blood . Reporter sandys attorneys also point out the lack of injuries on her hands. She has fingernails. None of them are broken. None of them are chipped. So how do you hold a knife and repeatedly thrust it and hit somebody. But she never has any injury in any way to her hand. You know, shes not bruce lee or something. Reporter no blood spread around the house, but there was dna that doesnt match the melgar family. Theres unknown male dna on really key pieces of evidence in this house. Theres unknown female dna as well. Found on the dresser drawer pulls and on door handles and on bathroom door handles. Which again corroborates the fact that there was other people in this house who did this. Reporter sandys attorneys tell the jury she, too, is a victim. Knocked out by Home Invaders or blacked out with one of her epileptic seizures. But the prosecutor shoots holes in the seizure defense. I got the records from from her physician. Every single entry that the doctor asks her, have you had a seizure . She says, no. Reporter from the beginning authorities have questioned sandys account of being tied up and locked in a closet. Relying on a series of houdinistyle demonstrations. The very night the crime scene is discovered, officers are already reenacting for their crime scene camera how they say sandy could have used a small rug or pillow sham to slide the chair into place under the door knob, locking herself into the closet. Watch again. Rug, chair, slide, presto, cops say, an airtight, walkin alibi. But, wait, theres more. Then i thought, okay, shes tied herself up with her hands behind her back and her feet. That sounds kind of hard to do. So when i looked at the evidence and saw the tie that she actually used, i was able to replicate that. And i saw how easy it is to tie yourself up and make it look legitimate, though its not. Reporter as she did for the jury in open court, prosecutor Colleen Barnett shows us how she believes sandy tied her own hands behind her back. Its not whether its a legitimate tie, its whether it looks like a legitimate tie. Reporter has the prosecutor given the jury enough rope to hang sandy melgar . Her attorneys say no way. This idea that something must have happened, and then she went crazy and subjected him to over 50 blunt force and Sharp Force Injuries is just impossible. Reporter still ahead, why they claim Sloppy Police work left clues overlooked. There was audible laughter in the courtroom about how shoddy this investigation was. Reporter and potential suspects unquestioned. There were people thinking, thats as good as youre going to get . Reporter stay with us. New sichuan hot chicken. For a heart breaking limited time only at panda express. Reporter five years after jim melgar was found fatally stabbed in his bedroom closet, his wife sandy is put on trial for his murder. After 11 days of testimony, sandys case is sent to the we all talked about how this case was the last thing you thought about when you went to bed at night, and the first thing you thought about when you woke up in the morning. Thats the gravity that that we weighed this case with. Reporter at first, bush says the jury is split down the middle. The scenario espoused by the prosecutor was extremely effective and, frankly, i think, really, the only viable scenario when you look at it. It was definitely a crime of passion. Reporter and by day two, the jury reaches a verdict. All of us we were all just quiet, holding hands. Just hoping for a good outcome. We the jury find the defendant, sandra jean melgar, guilty of murder, as charged in the indictment. Its signed, the foreman of the grand jury. Reporter when you heard that word read in court, guilty. You know, i felt like everything just got really quiet. The room was just kind of spinning. Yeah, i still feel sick to my stomach when i think about it, or hear other people talk about it. The whole courtroom just burst into tears. There were people sobbing uncontrollably. I just couldnt believe it. I remember clearly just looking at the jurors. Just staring at them, and i wanted them to look at us and just kind of so they can see what they you know, the pain that they were causing. Reporter brian rogers of the Houston Chronicle was at the trial nearly every day. Their reaction didnt surprise me, because i was surprised, too. It didnt come back the way i thought it would come back. I think its difficult to know someone for 30 years and have an idea about them, and the relationship they have. I didnt know sandra, and i didnt know the family, i could look at it with an open idea, an open mind about what had happened, and thats what i did. Reporter despite the verdict, sandys family and even jim melgars family are convinced shes innocent. For help, a Family Member reaches out to bob ruff. What is so outrageous about this story to you . I saw that the prosecutions case didnt have any meat to it. There were no bones behind why they convicted her. Can i see a scenario where this happened . Can i make this make sense . That Sandra Melgar killed her husband. In this case i couldnt see it. So we jumped in. Reporter bob ruff is currently pouring through every crime scene photo. The chair has to be down on the ground with the blood dropping that way. Reporter every page of testimony, no detail is too small. He believes there are a few ways an intruder could have entered the house that night, through the open garage door or through the back door, even though it was locked when police arrived. Lets remember back to sandys police interview. She couldnt confirm that the backdoor was actually locked. She never used it that day, but jim had been in and out. The offenders could have entered through the door, causing the dogs to bark. Jim emerged from the master suite to check on the dogs. Jim locks the door behind him, and turns arhim wiki of weapon. Reporter and the bloody chair in the master bedroom . The prosecution says sandy moved it there to tie her husband up, and slash him to death. One of the things that the defense cannot answer is, what is the dining room chair doing in the bedroom, and especially where it is . So the prosecution made a case that sandy lures jim into this chair outside the closet, and then is going to give him a massage, and takes a knife, and starts the attack right there. And then she drives this point home by saying theres no reason for that dining room chair to be there. It doesnt make sense that theres a dining room chair in the bedroom. But it does make sense. The crime scene photos show us this evidence. See that mark right there . Reporter yup. Thats a carpet mark from that chair where its normally kept right there. Indicating that the chair has been there before and for some time. Right, so they kept the chair there for the pomeranian to get on the bed. It was always kept in that location, theres no mystery there. Reporter at the trial, the jury saw a demonstration of how sandy could have tied herself up. But theres only one man who saw her bindings. Jims brother, who found her. He says it wasnt sandys wrists that were bound together, but her upper forearms tied behind her back. Her arms were behind her back in a way that nobody, especially with her ailments reporter you would have to be harry houdini. Right. Reporter the evidence, according to the prosecution, shows that the breakin at the melgar home is all an elaborate ruse. The house was not ransacked. There was nothing taken. There was a treasure trove of stuff in the house that could have been stolen. None of it was stolen. None of that added up, in my mind, to a burglary. Reporter lizz melgar testified in court that things were stolen, and bob says the crime scene photos support that. To begin with, theres a lot of evidence there were, in fact, items that were stolen from the house. Just to name a few, in the master bedroom, we have a nightstand with an antenna with a cable running to it, but no tv to connect to it. On the other side of the nightstand, you see another cord looks like an svideo cord not connected to anything. The stands empty. Neither of those two things are documented in the report. Reporter so if not Sandra Melgar, than who . . At trial, the defense claimed that other potential suspects were all but ignored. There was one individual who lived a few blocks away, who had been convicted of other crimes in the past, and had gotten out of jail just a few nights prior. Police looked into him, they never did establish contact with him, apparently. They went to his house, he wasnt home, they left a card or something. There was audible laughter in the courtroom about how shoddy this investigation was. There were people thinking, thats as good as youre going to get . You have what may be the best lead ever on somebody who could have actually done a Home Invasion in this neighborhood, and you left a Business Card . The guy that lived down the street, the only evidence we had against him was that he had gotten out of jail, and was standing at the corner looking at the house along with the other neighbors. Thats the only case we had against him. Thats not sufficient evidence that he was the guy. Reporter bob believes the authorities only pursued evidence that would lead to sandys guilt. The investigators were locked in to their theory. Rather than letting the evidence drive the theory from moment one, they let the theory drive the evidence. Reporter Colleen Barnett insists the investigation followed all viable suspects and leads. In the end, sandy melgar was sentenced to 27 years in state prison. The question now is, can bobs reinvestigation do anything to change the ending of her story . What do you think hes found . I think hes found a lot of evidence that points away from her. Reporter stay with us. You mighyour joints. Ng for your heart. Or your digestion. So why wouldnt you take something for the most important part of you. Your brain. With an ingredient originally discovered in jellyfish, prevagen has been shown in Clinical Trials to improve shortterm memory. Prevagen. Healthier brain. Better life. Hey, lizz. How are you doing . Im good. How are you . Reporter on this day in los angeles, for the first time, true crime podcaster bob ruff is meeting lizz melgar, daughter of convicted murderer sandy melgar. Im really thankful for all the work that you and your listeners have put into this. I feel like were actually moving forward. What you just said probably seems obvious to a lot of people. Reporter lizz is hoping that ruffs novel approach of crowdsourcing his podcast investigations with his audience will help get her mom out of prison. Marissa from seattle. Darlene wants to know, is it confirmed that items were missing from the home . Our concept is 100,000 ordinary people from around the world have such a wide variety of skill sets that we can accomplish anything that may be some very highly paid experts cant. Its something that is an absolute game changer for the innocence world. Were just beginning to see how powerful it can be. Reporter ruff and his avid army of listeners leave no potential clue unexamined, even honing in on the brand of that blouse found at the bottom of the jacuzzi alongside the murder weapon. One of our listeners zooms in on the tag of the shirt, figures out that designer made that specific shirt exclusively for costco, which is huge. Because costco happens to be one of the only places where you have to have a membership card for any item that you purchase. Reporter so not only would it tell you whether or not sandy melgar bought it, but it might also tell you who did buy it. Therefore, who might have discarded their shirt into that tub. Dismisses this kind of amateur sleuthing as irrelevant. She points out that all of the evidence was presented to a jury, which ultimately found that sandy melgar murdered her husband. Its unusual, for sure, that we have a suspect thats like sandra. But that doesnt determine whether somebody commits a crime or not. Reporter but as far as lizz melgar is concerned, her fathers killer is still out there. Do you tell your kids about their grandfather . Yeah. He wouldve loved them very much. Its just such a shame that he couldnt be here. Reporter bob ruff is determined to follow the trail wherever it leads. Hes put in a lot of time and a lot of hard work. Just really appreciative for everything hes done. Because hes hes given us new hope. Reporter how far do you think hell go . Oh, hell go all the way. Hell keep going until theres nothing else to look at. I know that she did not do this. Im gonna continue to fight until we can prove that. As for now, im signing off. Im bob ruff and this has been truth and justice. Bob ruff has raised 20,000 for a reward to find who he believes is the real killer. Im amy robach. For all of us here at c, good n. 110, aovehrgh ae a field at oakland airport