Country. Can he use his Court And Campaign appearances as fuel for his white House Run . And democrats mocking the former president for what they say is an Incomprehensible Explanation for how he would fix the high cost of Child Care its not just trump, the Loud Pushback on his vps pick too. The heartbreaking scene inside a Georgia Courtroom where the teenager accused of killing four at his High School and the Boys Father come Face To face with the families of those who died. The latest details, including charges against the dad accused of giving his son an Ar15 Rifle as a gift. We begin with Donald Trump waging Battles Today and trying to argue they amount to the same thing. After appearing at a hearing in the e. Jean Carroll Case he went before cameras with multiple claims that the Justice Department is using that case and other to rig the president ial campaign. Suggested she lifted her story from an episode of law and order. In front of a judge, his attorney argued before a threejudge Appellate Panel that they should overturn Carrolls Sex Abuse lawsuit claiming the original trial judge, louis kaplan, erred so badly deciding what evidence was allowed in, the Jury Verdict should be null and void. This case is a Textbook Example of implausible allegations propped up by highly inflammatory, admissible propensity evidence. Your arguments are evidentiary issues and as you know, we give great deference to the district courts on these matters. Its very hard to overturn a Jury Verdict based on evidentiary rulings. We use phrases like Man Ness festally erroneous. Why should we order a new trial here . Its very clear there was error in the admission of the propensity evidence, the lead evidence, the Access Hollywood tape. None of those are admissible under rule 413 and 415 which is the principle reason. Another politically and legally explosive decision is expected any time today, whether trumps sentencing in the new York City hush Money Case will be delayed until after the election or go ahead as planned 12 days from now. Nbcs Vaughn Hillyard is in charlotte, North Carolina, where former President Trump will be later today. Legal correspondent Lisa Rubin is outside court. Ashley parker is Washington Post Senior National Political Correspondent and an msnbc political analyst. Kristen gibbons is a former prosecutor, civil Rights Attorney and msnbc legal analyst. A lot to get to. Lisa, lets start with what we heard. The former president saying e. Jean carrolls claims never happened, even though a jury found that they did, that the doj rigged the case, also not true. Are there any legal consequences for what he had to say today . Chris, there could be, and that really is up to e. Jean carroll and his lawyers. The reason i say that is that what he said today should amount to additional defamation of e. Jean carroll. His claims today were substantively nearly identical to things he said in the past, for which he has been found libel by a jury. However there wouldnt be additional consequences including e. Jean carroll decides to sue him all over again. Weve seen instances of former President Trump saying these types of things since the latest of the e. Jean Carroll Verdicts in the two trials that have gone on, and she has not brought additional suit. So well have to see whether she and her attorneys decide to do so. My guess is, that they believe they secured two investigations against former President Trump with a total Damages Amount exceeding 88. 3 million. That for them is likely enough. What they really want to do now is enforce the verdicts that they have and have them sustained by Appellate Courts. Lets go to that. The legal Questions Today inside the courtroom. Did Donald Trumps lawyer make a strong case that judge kaplan made mistakes serious enough to overturn the verdict . Not only did Donald Trumps lawyer not make a strong case, chris, in court before that threejudge panel, but Donald Trump himself knew that and addressed that in front of the cameras at his Press Conference at Trump Tower. Lets take a listen. Legal talent cannot overcome rigged judges, they cant overcome a 4 republican area, and im disappointed in my legal talent, ill be honest with you. Theyre good people, theyre talented people. So chris, you hear Donald Trump saying that his lawyers are talented, but that he was ultimately disappointed in their performance today. Thats because none of the three judges on the Panel Today in the united States Court of appeals for the second circuit appeared to be buying what john sauer, President Trumps attorney, was selling. His Primary Argument was that there were three pieces of evidence admitted during the first Carroll Trial that shouldnt be. The testimony of a woman named jessica leads who alleges Donald Trump sexually assaulted her on a plane, the second from a writer who allegations that Donald Trump sexually assaulted her in maralago in a ballroom while writing a profile on former president Donald Trump his wife Mel Lane ya. Third the Access Hollywood Case and in all cases the judges didnt seem to be buying the fact that they were inadmissible evidence. Even if they were, e. Jean carrolls lawyer told them, she could do without all of that evidence because she introduced enough evidence for the jury to find Donald Trump libel of sexual Abuse And Defamation through the other witness testimony, that includes e. Jean carrolls own three days on The Stand and the testimony of two outcry witnesses, two friends of e. Jean carrolls who she told at the time of the assault that it happened. One counselled her to go to the police and the other take the secret to the grave. E. Jean carroll almost did, keeping it a secret more than two decades before coming forward in 2019, chris. If i can get you Breaking News and your reaction to this. We have been waiting to hear from Judge Merchan in the hush Money Case, and he said he would have a Ruling Today on whether or not sentencing would continue as it was expected to and just under two weeks or move it as they pushed for until after the election. According to sources approved by sources to Nbc News with direct knowledge, Judge Merchan will sentence November 26th, 2024, if necessary. It is going to be adjourned until november 26, 2024. Obviously, that is a couple weeks, several weeks, after the election. Your reaction and how important that might be, lisa . You know, im not entirely surprised that Judge Merchan did that for a few reasons. First, Judge Merchan isnt scheduled to rule on trumps motion to set aside that verdict for evidentiary errors stemming from the president ial Immunity Decision by the Supreme Court until september 16th. His lawyers made the argument that if sentencing was only two days later, they didnt have enough time to secure relief from either a state or federal Appellate Court between the 16th and the 18th that effectively only gave them a day. The other reason that im not surprised is that the manhattan d. A. Itself didnt oppose the request. They gave Judge Merchan a list of pros and cons, but said at The End of the day, the decision was his. That they believed that former President Trump should be sentenced expeditiously in the interest of justice, but they understood that there were factors that might weigh against going immediately to his sentencing. So im not surprised that Judge Merchan has now delayed the sentencing until after the election, but note also, that he has made the Sentencing Proceeding still scheduled for 2024 before The End of the year. That means that former President Trump could be facing a sentencing between his November Election, should he win the November Election, and his inauguration in january, or conversely, if he loses, Judge Merchan may have made the calculation, no harm no foul, the same sentence i would have given him in september i can give this man in november. I think this is what many legal experts concluded would happen, particularly after the manhattan d. A. Alvin bragg and his team, told the judge they didnt really oppose the request by the former president s team to stay Sentencing Proceedings here, chris. Let me go to you, kristen, if i can and ask you about the decision that Juan Merchan made and the importance, frankly, of him getting this done now. The argument that was being made is that it was essentially Election Interference to rule on this before people made their votes known. What do you make of this decision . Eye i really actually similar to what lisa was saying, agree with all of her points, and i think it being after the election really helps to disconvince or go against trumps narrative that the judiciary in this particular case was being politicized. By placing it after the November Election, again, to lisas point, allows trumps narrative to be cut. He cannot say that any type of decision made with regard to the sentencing is going to influence the election again because the sentencing decisions are going to be made afterwards. All the points that lisa stated, which is the Prosecution Wasnt opposing it and just requesting it be expeditiously as possible, which it absolutely is, allows him the opportunity to appeal and really seems to meet a middle ground and be an objective decision. So im looking, ashley, at what former president Donald Trump posted last night on social media. A lot of it is the stuff that we typically expect of him, that every, you know, smart person, every legal School Lashgs every expert, every brilliant lawyer agrees with the argument that he was making that it was a blatant and illegal attempt to win an election. In other words, they were trying to make him look bad before folks went to the polls. Whats the real world impact of this ruling on politics in 2024 . To look at the real world impact i would point you to his Press Conference earlier today, the Press Conference was in response to this expected ruling and also in response to what his lawyers were doing appealing the e. Jean Carroll Case and as i watched that i was struck by the fact that it may not affect his base. It may even motivate his base. But this election will not be decided by his base. You could not have scripted something better for the democrats than the former president standing up there, criticizing his lawyers as they stood next to him, attacking women, and sort of putting in these accusations of sexual Assault Front and center in an election that many people believe that suburban women, independents, people who say i like some of his policies, what he did on the economy, i dont like his personality, i dont like his behavior, when these are the people deciding the election, these cases that then prompted that performance are not particularly politically helpful to the former president. Another thing that he wrote, Vaughn Hillyard, was somehow he believed it would all work on. I dont know how, i dont know why, i dont know when, but it always does. Is the feeling, in spite of everything he said at that well they said it was going to be a Press Conference, it wasnt, he didnt take questions from the press, it was more like he just spoke for, i dont know how long it was, you can tell me, at least an hour, but is there a strong belief by him, from what you hear from people close to him, that hes got this . I think clearly the strategy on the part of Donald Trump, i cant attest for his campaign, but Donald Trump is to speak more words than not, and to play offense as a means of defense. In this particular case, you heard him directly there criticize and say that he was not happy with his own legal team. This is a legal team that, in his eyes, who did not adequately represent him in the hush Money Payment Scheme that has led to this sentencing even being a Discussion Point here. Frustrated that he didnt testify in the first e. Jean Carroll Trial in may of 2023. He didnt even show up to court in order to go before that jury. And so clearly Donald Trump has made the calculation that he is his own best lawyer, his own best defendant, his own best spokesman, his own best Campaign Manager at this point. So theres no reason to believe that he is going to take any other tack towards this over the next two weeks or over the next two months here. I think when youre looking at what played out at Trump Tower and now with knowing that the sentencing is going to come the tuesday before thanksgiving, i think hints at the point that lisa was bringing up, that would technically be almost two months before inauguration day. The scenario that Donald Trump wins the presidency, he will still face sentencing, but in the scenario he does not, it only raises the stakes of the Election Interference claims that he is already stating out loud before anybody has cost their ballot so we would expect a rocky transition as he makes claims that either there was cheating, stuffing of ballot boxes, as he has done, or there was Election Interference on the part of prosecutors as you heard over the course of hour of remarks at Trump Tower. Of course the biggest part, the biggest variable in all of this, chris, is the fact that Donald Trump is going to potentially, very well be running on his freedom. We do not know what that sentencing will look like. We do not know whether that could very well include prison time or not, but Donald Trump has not runaway from these trials. Thats why he was there every day of court for the hush Money Scheme Trial itself. He went out there, he addressed the cameras because he didnt want this to be a quiet something that his democratic opponents could use in the debate, but instead he wanted to be the political messenger himself on this front. Thats where you saw him today. He talked about some of the evidence he wanted to be brought forward. He brought up the other womens allegations. Not even e. Jean carroll. The american public didnt have the camera inside the courtroom, but he brought it there standing in front of a podium and bringing up the womens explicit allegations and then undercutting those very allegations, including e. Jean carroll, Defamation Claim that he was found to have to owe her 83 Million for. Donald trump has made that calculation and we should expect that he will, including here in battleground North Carolina, later this afternoon, be running on the idea that his freedom is on the line and if there is a way to galvanize your base of support, get your family, your friends and most loyal faithful supporters to come out there and ensure that you are in the White House in which would consequently all but stave off any Prison Sentence or any potential imprisonment or punishment he were to face at the hands of Judge Merchan. We started this hour by talking about the confluence of the political and legal fort Donald Trump, and for him often they are the same. I had a chance to get my hands on the actual statement from Juan Merchan. I want to read a little bit of it because the top line for us, would he or wouldnt he be sentenced before the election. We now know he will not this is part of a very first sentence from the judge. He said that that the potential politically prjal impact that a public sentencing could have on him and his prospects in the upcoming elections, his attempts to bolster his application by repeating a litany of perceived an unsubstantiated grievances from previous filings, do not merit this courts attention. On what did he base this, and tell us what else is in this . Yeah. Chris, lets go to your first question first. On what did he base this . The first thing he says, im going to the second page of this Fourpage Letter Order from Judge Merchan, is that, despite the fact that manhattan d. A. Told the judge they were officially neutral on trumps request to postpone his sentencing, he notes, as i did before, they raised a number of concerns about going ahead with the sentencing as scheduled in their letter. He interprets that as seemingly supporting trumps application for adjournment and said a careful reading of their response can be fairly construed as a joiner of the motion. The parties, in his interpretation, were in agreement going forward with sentencing, at least presented sufficient concerns for him to take those concerns very seriously. Then the next thing that he says, that is despite those unsubstantiated litany of Brie Vances on the first page, its not lost on him that there are 41 days or im sorry there would be 41 days until the election if sentencing were to proceed on September 18th. He says given that and the gravity of the election and not wanting to interfere with the election, that he has decided to postpone that sentencing. I want to bring you and our Viewers Attention to one other facet of this, one i think is really important, Judge Merchan was scheduled to decide trumps motion to set aside the verdict on grounds that he, Judge Merchan, admitted evidence at trial that the Supreme Court has now held could not be admit inned because it constitutes evidence of his official acts. That motion was due to be decided on september 16th. Judge merchan has now through this order not only pushed off the sentencing until late november but he has pushed off his decision on whether or not the verdict should stand until November 12th, which is also, as you and vaughn and ashley and kristen know, after the election as well. He is really pushing any further decisions about this case until after the election. Know one other thing, the amount of time between when hes scheduled to decide whether the verdict will stand and the sentencing is a short period. Its 14 days between November 12th when he will decide when the verdict stands and November 26th the date of the sentencing. Its not accidental. Its not as if shes deciding in a way that gives the trump lawyers months to create appellate mischief after presumably hell decide that verdict should stand. Rather they will have 14 days after that decision to exercise any appellate options. In the ordinary course a Judges Decision on whether to set aside the Verdict Isnt immediately appealable. You have to proceed to sentencing. Former president Donald Trumps lawyers have said given the nature of this case and given who their client is, essentially those rules shouldnt apply. Merchan here, by shortening that window between deciding his motion and the sentencing, is going to make it very hard for them, perhaps, to get an Appellate Court to intervene if he decides the verdict should stand, and he wants to move forward to sentencing, chris. Let me bring in former u. S. Attorney and senior Fbi Official Chuck rosenberg. Is that how you read this . It is. I think lisa has the legal part of it precisely right, chris. I will say, look, Judge Merchans decision was fraught. Someones going to be unhappy No Matter what he does. Hes doing what judges do all the time around the country in state and federal courts. Hes balancing competing interests. This is not an easy one and it is rather unprecedented. Look, i think on balance he has it right. Can i ask you, though, is it fraught legally or because of the politics surrounding it . Yeah. I think, yeah, thats a great question, chris. I would say more so politically and less so legally. I think the law is pretty clear, once youre convicted by a jury of a felony you get sentenced and that happens all the time. But here, you have the rather unique situation of the person who is to be sentenced, running for president as a major party candidate. Judge merchan is balancing those competing interests and i think as he probably sees it, if he does anything to interfere in the election, hes done Something Wrong. And so he can wait. The verdict doesnt go away. Mr. Trump presumably will still be sentencing. Its simply after the election, rather than before, and when you balance the interests that makes sense to me, chris. So, let me ask you what happens between now and November 12th . What will both sides be doing . I imagine the Trump Team will be trying to find ways to postpone or indefinitely or to get rid of the case entirely. Thats been their strategy, not just delayed, but to make the Darn Thing go away. Prosecutors will defend against that, of course, and theyll prepare for sentencing, as they always do. So i dont know that strategies on either Side Change in meaningful ways, chris. I want to bring in diane, a former District Attorney and retired criminal court judge. I think it would be hard to argue against what chuck said, this you was always going to be a fraught decision. Anything that deals with a president ial election is both unprecedented and, therefore, fraught. But how complex do you think this was and what do you think of the decision that he made . Well, i agree with chuck. Theres nothing fraught about this legally. This happens all the time. Defendants get convicted. They file 330 motions. Those motions either get granted or denied. The defendant gets sentenced and if the defendant is still unhappy he can file a 440 motion, essentially a postsentence motion. The only thing that was ever fraught here was the politics. And i think Judge Merchan really was between a rock and a hard place. If he sentenced him now, it looked as if he were trying to influence the election in a negative manner. If he puts it over until after the election he looks as if to some people, perhaps, that hes doing him a favor. The problem as i see it, whats going to happen after the election . Its going to be more of the same. If mr. Trump wins the election, its going to be, well, i cant be sentenced now im working on a transition team. Im too busy. I dont know what happens if he doesnt get convicted excuse me elected. I guess that makes it easier for Judge Merchan. The easiest thing would have been to sentence him and let the appellate Division Worry about it. I think the judge who is known to be fair was trying to be fair. I want to go back to Vaughn Hillyard and i understand we are hearing from Team Trump . Yeah. We just got an initial statement here from one of the spokespersons for the trump campaign. Quote, there should be no sentencing in manhattan District Attorneys Election Interference Witch Hunt as mandated by the united states Supreme Court, this case, along with all of the other Biden Hoaxes should be dismissed. Steven cheung. This is what lisa is getting at here, is the fact that we are waiting for Judge Merchan to also decide the merits of the Trump Teams appeal to Judge Merchan to all but nullify the decision of the jury back in may on the grounds that some of the evidence that was admitted was before the u. S. Supreme courts Immunity Decision, which granted some protections to Donald Trump in his role as president over what could be or could not be admissible. Of course, it was the prosecution from District Attorney alvin Braggs Office which ferociously pushed back in suggesting that it was the evidence that would potentially have not been shown before the jury was amenable in terms of what was overwhelming evidence that would have been admissible, including the actual testimony of the witnesses who took The Stand, and so, of course, here Donald Trump is has continued to suggest all of the cases should be dismissed and referenced Judge Cannon Florida is the only judge who has so far done her job with ethics, which, of course, judge cannon, who is not throwing out that case on the grounds of the Immunity Decision, but on the grounds she considered it to have been a special counsel that was not rightfully appointed by the District Attorney general or by the Attorney General here, and so this is for the Tump Campaign what we should hear in North Carolina today and Wisconsin Tomorrow on the trail he continues to make the case nationally and publicly like he did when he was on the stage in milwaukee at the Republican National Convention that these cases should not be brought at all, not only on the substance, but also under the Supreme Courts Immunity Decision we await to hear from Judge Merchan as it applies to this case. Another question for you vaughn, but before i go to it, can you read that brief statement again . Quote, there should be no sentencing in the manhattan d. A. s Election Interference Witch Hunt. As mandated by the united states Supreme Court, this case, along with all of the other harrisBiden Hoaxes, should be dismissed. They see this as an opportunity to continue what their arguments have been all along, that none of these cases are legitimate, and not to say, of course, we got a win because were right . There was none of that, there was none of the this is the argument we made, whether or not this is what Judge Merchan said, the judge agrees with us. This is Fighting Mode . Fighting mode and also an effort to lets be very frank, distort. Right. I think that the this particular statement here from Steven Cheung could have merits. Well wait to hear from Judge Merchan as it applies to the hush Money Payment Case about whether there was enough evidence he finds should not have been admitted under the Supreme Courts decision. At the same time when i say distort Donald Trump has repeatedly distorted the not only judge Cannons Decision in the classified documents decision, he said it was exoneration, thats what we heard in the impeachment, and uses exoneration to suggest somehow these judges are finding that he did not actually do any wrongdoing and for anybody that may not be listening to right wing provocative media that is trump aligned or reading to the second and third paragraph of the story, i think the trumps words hold great weight because we often, after traveling on the campaign trail, hear his lines parodied by his supporters here. Including the fact that people make the case that the Supreme Court granted him immunity and none of these cases should be brought before him. This is going to come down to Judge Merchan and chutkan who are based off how the u. S. Justice system works going to give the defendants attorneys their due chance to present in briefings and hearings what they believe is protected from the rights of Donald Trump as being a former president from the Immunity Decision here. So this is part of the Justice System that sometimes gets, you know, ill use the word distorted by Donald Trump when by and large this is absolutely going through the process that those who of like Chuck And Lisa have operated through and other reporters, like ourselves, have watched transpire. Donald trump is getting his due course in the court of law, and clearly Judge Merchan, who he has continually suggested has political motives, could have very well, if he desired, kept the September 18th sentencing on the books, but he chose not to and is pushing it back after the election and in his decision there, even noting so that the american public would not distort what ultimately his decision was as part of the memo. Ashley parker, obviously and you pointed this out Donald Trump addressed this in his statement, long statement, that he made, that did not turn out to be the Press Conference that his campaign had said it was going to be. Having said that, how do you think he takes this, what happened today, what Juan Merchan wrote going forward and will it be more of what we heard from his spokesperson . I think it will be more of what we heard from Steven Cheung. He did Donald Trump does want any sentencing to come after the election, but theres also No Doubt that one of the things that sort of revised his political career after the January 6th insurrection were some of the first indictments against him. In certain ways, and again as vaughn said, a lot of what trump and his team are saying is its disingenuous and inaccurate, but this is the sort of thing that has helped him with Fundraising Lagging behind Vice President harris, has helped him galvanize his base, but i think he is in general happy that its after the election. This is something that you saw in that Press Conference, as you point out wasnt a Press Conference because there were no questions, gets under his skin. Its one of the key reasons why some people believe he is running, because his political fortunes and legal fortunes are so inextricably bound and when he is irritated like this, something that may galvanize his base, loves to see the fighter, does not help him politically with the voters he needs to win and is good for the democrats in the Harriswalz Campaign grappling with Trump Amnesia and can point to moments like this to say to undecided voters, hey, remember what it was like when trump was president , the chaos, the behavior you didnt like, the conversations you didnt enjoy having with your teenage children here it is and thats what you should expect four more years if you vote him back into office. As vaughn pointed out, him bringing up cases with accusations from other women that werent even part of what happened in court today. Thank you for that. We have been waiting for a decision by judge Juan Merchan in the hush Money Case and there are three important points i want to reiterate. This is what he orders after several pages of explaining. Ordered, that the decision on the motion to set aside the Jury Verdict, again this is in the hush Money Case, and dismiss the indictment will be handed down off calendar on November 12th, 2024. Off calendar meaning there is not going to be a hearing. There is not going to be court. He will do what he did today, essentially he will be deciding whether or not that Jury Verdict should stand. Second one, ordered, the sentencing on this matter, if necessary, meaning, of course, if the verdict stands, will now be November 26th, 2024, at 10 00 a. M. That, again, will be in court. And ordered that the Defendants Motion to preclude the people from filing a Presentence Memorandum is denied. The peoples submission, if any, will be filed with the court under seal. I want to take these one by one and i want to bring in msnbc legal analyst and former Manhattan Assistant District Attorney Katherine Christian. Let me start with the first point of that and whether or not the Jury Verdict should stand, and again, just to reit tight rate, this is about the supreme Court Decision on president ial immunity. As you see it, what is in this that may or may not stand . Well, i think Judge Merchan could legitimately set aside the verdict based on the supreme Court Decision. If you were to say, as the defense has said, that the conversations that Donald Trump had in the White House with Hope Hicks, who was his White House communication director, which the manhattans d. A. Office had her testify to which came out in evidence are considered an official act, under the supreme Court Decision it could be argued that should not have been allowed into evidence and that is reversible error and other acts that occurred when he was president. Thats what the defense is arguing. That, Judge Merchan can say, we never made a decision before trial what was an official act because there was no supreme Court Decision and cant reinvent the wheel, im moving to set aside the verdict. On the other hand he could say im not setting aside the verdict. Under new york law, one, its Harmless Error. The evidence of guilt was so overwhelming. Two, i dont believe those were official acts. I also want to say this is really the tale of two judges. Yesterday, Judge Chutkan basically said, i dont care about the election. Im just dealing with this defendant, Donald Trump, as a criminal defendant before me. Today, Judge Merchan is, i care about the election. Of courses of it was made easier once the manhattan d. A. s office didnt oppose and they basically consented. That made it easier for Judge Merchan to make this decision to delay the sentencing because the manhattan d. A. s office was on board with that decision. Diane, former judge, what do you see at the heart of the decision that has to be made by Judge Merchan on this . We dont have her. Chuck rosenberg . I think katherine laid out very well the issue for Judge Merchan. Does the verdict get set aside because of what happened at trial, what already transpired, essentially violated a supreme Court Decision that came after, or was the Harmless Error . In other words, was there official Act Evidence introduced at trial and if there was did it prejudice the jury and the case . Or was it of little consequence given the overwhelming nature of the other evidence . Theres a big distinction between what Judge Chutkan has to do and what Judge Merchan has to do. Judge chutkan has to take a decision from the Supreme Court and apply it to a case that has not yet been tried. Judge merchan has to take a decision from the Supreme Court and apply it to a case that has already been tried. And so in some ways, i think a harder task for Judge Merchan. I dont know where hes going to come out. I think katherine would agree, there are arguments on both sides. My sense of it, chris, is that most of the evidence, if not almost all of the evidence, introduced at the hush Money Case in front of Judge Merchan, concerned purely personal conduct and, in fact, there was error, if there was error, that it would be harmless and that the verdict could be sustained. But i dont know that and i dont have a Crystal Ball and i dont know that Judge Merchans path here is necessarily an easy one. Easier for us folks on television than for the men and women who wear a robe and sit behind a big bench. People like diane. I understand we have you back now. How tough is this decision for Juan Merchan and what do you think the crux might be . What might push it one way or another . Well, i think the key issue that both Katherine Christian and chuck mentioned, its exactly correct. Should evidence have been brought in to this trial that came out of discussions that the then president had in the Oval Office with Hope Hicks and his other assistant . In new york, theres a concept known as Harmless Error. You can review the testimony in the trial without that evidence and see whether the result would have been unchanged. Whether thats going to be the analysis under the new supreme Court Decision is an open question. Now, again, Judge Merchan can do one of two things. He can determine that its Harmless Error when he does make the decision and then let the Appellate Division in the new York Court of appeals decide. Or he can himself make that decision and if he decides in favor of mr. Trump, trial over. Its done. Its reversed. I dont know what hes going to do. I dont envy him. As weve said over and over again, you know, hes not in the greatest position. Is there anything applicable here . I mean often laws change, right, and do does that mean that people who are convicted under previous laws can automatically file and do they usually succeed in that . Is it completely different when were talking about something that happened legislatively and something that was a decision by the Supreme Court of the united states . Well, some laws are determined to be retroactive. Some laws are determined not to be. As are some decisions. So you cant really answer that question in a blanket way. I think its really important to recognize that once a jury speaks if getting a case dismissed or reversed is truly rare. Okay. And Thats Something that, you know, gets lost in all of this discussion. And again, so much of our discussion is mired in politics. Pure and simple. Im going to go on to sentencing because i promised in the preSentencing Memorandum. It occurs to me, im going to call on your knowledge of all of the cases involving Donald Trump, looks like the next 60 days before the Election Nothing in court . Nothing in court i can think of unless we have some sort of Emergency Proceeding. Thinking about all of the existing trump cases, lets start with Judge Merchan. We have nothing scheduled in his court until november. When i think ibts Judge Chutkan, no conferences or hearings scheduled. We have some briefings that will come in. As we discussed on your show and others yesterday, theres a possibility that Jack Smiths opening brief on immunity will contain exhibits that show us evidence that weve never seen before. But that, of course, is up to Judge Chutkan, particularly since a lot of that evidence is currently under seal and, therefore, she will have to make a determination about how and if that briefing becomes public. Moving to judge cannons case, her dismissal of that case based on the allegedly unconstitutional appointment of special counsel Jack Smith, and his office is on appeal to the 11th Circuit but not on an expedited schedule. Were not expecting Oral Argument before the election. The fourth case before former President Trump the Fulton County Case where an Oral Argument on the proprietary of having Fani Willis stay on the case has been scheduled for december. Again, unless and until there is some sort of Emergency Proceeding we cant see for now, the only thing i anticipate happening between now and the November Election and these Trump Legal Kagsz is the possibility that Jack Smith lobs a brief to Judge Chutkans courtroom that reveals something that we dont know and perhaps changes some mind. Barring that, however, this is going to be a very quiet Election Season and trump legal in that some respects might play to the former president s detriment. He does his best with his base when he actively has something to complain about. You saw that during the summer when there was not a lot of action after the Supreme Courts decision. He was sort of kept going back to the well to try to complain about, for example, the existence of the Gag Order to accuse Judge Merchan. When things are not active he sometimes loses some of that the Fundraising Momentum that accompanied him during the Trump Trial i attended. Thank you so much for that, lisa. Chuck, let me move on to the next part of this. Assuming the investigate stands, the sentencing will be held 10 00 in the morning, what goes into that. Assuming we have a sentencing both sides will file with the court, with the judge their positions with respect to the appropriate sentence. Right now those will be filed under seal and that is also appropriate. Judge merchan is right to keep that out of the public record for now. At sentencing mr. Trump will be given an opportunity to speak at his own sentencing and often im sure everyone on your Panel Today has seen this, defendants who are going to appeal their sentence, who still have right, things to litigate, do not get up and apologize for their conduct or ask for mercy. They usually waive their right to talk about there are appeals to come. I wouldnt expect any great moments of drama at a sentencing. I wouldnt expect we would hear from mr. Trumping if he says anything at all, i would expect him to continue to deny the allegations and to call this a hoax orchestrated by Harris And Biden and the like. Does that hurt him with the judge . If you look at it apart from Donald Trump, right, hes 77 years old, this is not physical harm that was caused to someone. Typically in a case like this, new york doesnt have some of the strongest sentencing in the country, you would think he would not get jail time, right. But you do hear when in court that a judge wants to hear remorse and wants to hear an acknowledgement that Something Wrong was done, does that have an impact . Even in a case like this. So i have two answers for you, chris. Usually i have no answers so two answers is not true. Better than zero. Answer number one, where there are pending appeals all judges i believe understand that theyre not going to hear Contrition Or Remorse from a defendant. There are things yet to litigate. Judge merchan is an experienced jurist and i dont think that will surprise him. Answer number two, remember mr. Trump has been criticizing Judge Merchan and even his family for months now, and Judge Merchan has properly factored that out of his decision making best i can tell. In both of those ways, i think Judge Merchan is playing it down the middle as a good judge would. I dont believe he would hold it against mr. Trump if mr. Trump is not contrite or Apoll Gettic or remorseful at sentencing and even if the attacks continue on Judge Merchan, he has demonstrated the ability to brush that aside and do his job in the proper way, chris. That brings me to The One thing that Judge Merchan did deny Donald Trumps team. He said, im not going to preclude the people from filing a preSentencing Memorandum. We should remind people that there are 34 felonies that Donald Trump was convicted of. Each carries a possible sentence of four years behind bars unlikely i think that they, obviously, would be served consecutively if there was to be any jail time, it would most likely be concurrent. But what would a Sentencing Memo like that contain, do you think, and what do you expect the prosecution to arguing for . The prosecution will most likely argue within the Guideline Sentence and i think one of the things that the pretrial memorandum is going to do, its going to outline every single fact of the case, but its also going to talk about the phase of litigation, keep in mind that Donald Trump violated the Gag Order so theyre also going to talk about how not only trump should be sentenced with regard to his behavior behind the crime, but also how trump did not follow various Court Orders with regard to intimidating witnesses and the like. So thats also going to be within the pretrial memo, i suspect, at least when i was a prosecutor. I would make sure that that was in any pretrial memorandum with regard to sentencing. Was because again, the prosecutions Presentence Memorandum will focus on what conduct the defendant should be sentenced on, but then also, how the witnesses were treated with regard to it. I think the prosecution will argue thak some of the witnesses were scared, not necessarily only from trump, but also of his base. I think thats also going to play into it. I want to bring in mitt romneys Chief Strategist and Senior Adviser for the Lincon Project and with he host of the podcast when we win maya rupert. Its good to have you here. Weve been talking about you heard lisa say, you know, this might play to the detriment of Donald Trump that it doesnt look as though this or any other case is going to involve real court time for him, something he has used to fire up his base, fire up his fundraising. What do you think this means for Donald Trump . I definitely agree there. I think that trump uses these moments to try to make himself the victim of these hoaxes. The victim of these Witch Hunts. And by not being able i think to cast himself in that role, you know, but the decision to delay all of this until after the election, that means that he sort of cant come out and, you know, come out swinging the way he typically does. I think that, obviously, appeals to his base. What is actually incumbent upon him in this moment is to try to convince people who are on the fence, who are independents, the people who were tired of are when he was president having to have some of these complicated conversations about why are we talking about felonies and the way that the president is speaking to people, he needs to talk to them and they dont respond to trump as the victim as the fighter. They want to hear well wait a minute, if this guy wins we have to immediately turn our attention to is the President Elect getting sentenced and going to do time and how does that impact things. He will have to take a very different tone. Its one i just we have not seen him have the range for. I think, stuart, there are the folks who are always trump and there are a lot of it seems more people who have become mostly trump. They really like Donald Trump. They might have one point, but he has legal woes that have had such a Galvanizing Effect on his base. I wonder if for folks who might be on the fence, honestly, does this kind of thing, does the fact that he goes after today e. Jean carroll, he goes after the judges, he goes back to his old allegations that the doj is out to get him, that this is a Witch Hunt, does this have the same kind of impact it did, even with people who have a tendency to like him or vote for him . You know, i think what were seeing is why in the history of america no major party has ever nominated a criminal as a president ial candidate. Its just extraordinary that the republican party now is in this position by its own choice, Donald Trump were discussing whether or not hes going to jail, a potential somebody could win an election. I dont think he is. You know, we have to sort of step back from this, there is no part of American Life where people think that it is an advantage to be a convicted felon. No one says i would have hired this person, except they werent a convicted felon. So thats sort of the reality here. I think most people find it and those that arent the hard core maga, most people find it distasteful, its embarrassing. You kind of dont want to talk about it. But this is not helping Donald Trump get elected president of the united states. There was a moment when Donald Trump frankly went after his lawyers today. And two of his lawyers were standing on either side of them. One of them was Alina Habba who we have seen frequently, certainly in the courtroom when Donald Trump was in new york. I want to play something she said and get reaction on the other side. The only thing i can say thats good about it is the public understands, and my Poll Numbers i believe are higher now than they would have been without it. The public understands its a hoax, its a scam, its a political Witch Hunt. I want to speak to the american women, and i want to speak to the people that need to get out and vote november 5th. As an attorney, as a woman, as a mother our future of this country depending on it, and we need to stop this from happening. The doj is supposed to help our country and protect us. Not attack us because you cannot win in the polls. She also said shes been around him a lot, and hes not that guy. Essentially, and im paraphrasing. I wonder, is that effective in messaging to women . I dont think that it is. I dont think that just getting a woman who says this wasnt my experience so it cant be, i think women are more sophisticated voters than that, and understand you can find a woman that you havent victimized that doesnt undermine the argument. And i think whats more than that, shes appealing to herself as a woman, as a mother, i think there are a lot of women and mother in this country who have had a lot of interactions with our criminal Justice System, and i think a lot of those families are thinking about their experience with this and remembering that when their Loved Ones were dealing with sentencing, with how this was going to play out, that they werent treated the same way Donald Trump is being treated, and i think that desire to make sure that no one is above the law, that feeling that everyone should be treated equally, that is very equalizing emotion. And so i think really what were going to see is a lot of these women shes speaking to, who have had very different experiences who are going to say, well, wait a minute, i dont want there to be two sets of our Justice System. This is what our family went through. Why is it why should it be different for him . Catherine christian, we got a statement from alvin bragg, the manhattan d. A. , it is his case thats at the heart of this. Its quite simple and straightforward, quote, a jury of 12 new yorkers swiftly and unanimously convicted Donald Trump of 34 Felony Counts. The manhattan d. A. s office stands ready for sentencing on the new date set by the court. But how nervous do you think they are inside the manhattan d. A. s office, and i just would like to get your reaction to that statement . Well, it was a very simple statement, and as it should be, you should not as a prosecutor, the case is still open until hes been sentenced, make any comment. The reality is Judge Merchan said the reason why its being delayed is off the manhattan d. A. s office also agreed to it. So im not saying Judge Merchan wouldnt have delayed it without the manhattan d. A. s office agreeing to it, but they did. We should also remember on the sentencing date, it could be President Elect Trump, which i think will make it a very different sentencing. We should talk about that. Its going to be at The End of november when it happens. Will it be former President Trump and a regular defendant that Judge Chutkan said yesterday. Or is it President Elect Trump when the Sentencing Daylight Date happens. Once again in a 3 1 2 Page Ruling that was released in the last hour from judge Juan Merchan and the people versus trump, the headline is that the sentencing on those 34 Felony Counts have been moved. They will be handed down or could be handed down at The End of november on November 26th at 10 00 a. M. , but before that, there will be a ruling on whether or not the verdict will stand based on the Supreme Court immunity ruling. Were going to thank all of our guests in this hour. Well be back with much more on this Breaking News Right after this. 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