You uh in our International News coming up at half past the hour uh for now that brings us to an end for our extended coverage uh do stay with press tv for now its goodbye. Hi, im sean murray, and this is the conversation, where we take an alternative look, a political events and Current Affairs through annary slens. In this show, we hope to pick, probe, investigate and uncover the stories that you want to hear, we go where mainstream wont go. This week we look at the of topic of our fragile. Peace process, how does peace now look 25 years on from the signing of the good fredy agreement . Has Common Ground been made by former enemies or are we as polarized as ever . My next guest served under the royal ulster constablary, depending on what side of the political divide you come from, the rc were seen as a protectors of a community or an oppressive force against another. But before we speak to our next guest, lets get a quick overview on this weeks topic. As always we are joined by our resident copresenter Michelle Gildernew. Michelle is the current np for fermana south toron. She has served in the northern arland assembly as a former minister for agriculture and Rural Development and chairperson of the Health Committee amongst other things. Michelle has been a shinfian activist since her teams and has been elected almost. Since 1998 and todays guest is sam thompson, sam is a former member of the royal olster constablary, he experienced the loss of number of colleagues and friends and saw numerous killings and bombings during the conflict. Sam retired in 2008 and as expanded on his love of history and his nail. Sam, welcome to the show, yes thank you. So sam, you grew up not far from where were sitting now, very different place from from this side of the wall. Do you want to tell us a bit about your childhood . Yes, well um, i came in this world, i was born in the Royal Victoria Hospital up the road, but the first house i was brought home to is don d street, just on the other side of the pace line, so all four my grandparents all lived within about 300 yards from here, and my grandfather would have grown up in 9th street, which um runs down in the conway street, so was very familiar with that lower shankel area when i was young, even though um my parents moved the ball. But grandparents continued to live down there so was basically brought up in between the two and sam you joined the ruc, what motivated you to do that and what was its reputation like when you joined it . Right, um, in terms of motivation, i joined it pretty much by default i didnt really know what to do with my life, and im not at the stage where im retired and i still dont really know what to do with it. Um, what year did you join and what age . I joined in 1979 and i was 18 on about four and a half months by the time i went in. Um, so it was basically the economy here was imploding, the place was rapidly deindustrializing, and it was one of the few things that had any job security, now in terms of um reputation, there was none of the baggage in the Unionist Community regarding the rc, and my first memory of them is actually quite a positive one, i went to cliffenville Primary School and i must have been either 1970 or 19. 1971 our School Sports day was attacked by um bigger kids from around the bone area and the teachers got us off with all the run like theres coming over and chucking bricks and stuff at us and feeling absolutely terrified and the Police Arrived down in the school and remember feeling reassured and safe at the site of the police uniform. Now as a got older um 1970s was quite a brutal period and around bailly silen and i dont know whether its true or not, but like the word in the school was if you messed about with tenant straight or you got arrest that you would get a heiden and as this all sound absolutely weird to many your many viewers um but the idea if youre a arrested youre going to get back up the place nobody thought this was strange but on the unionist side of the house that was very much a thing too um but things have to change so you can either say well thats the way things are or you can um try and change them in a more positive way and once you joined the oecm you were you remember the oec for 28 years and was there a certain period or or a time or and im sure there were many dark times was there something that stuck out in particular oh well there were so many things like particularly the first lot of years um when it was in uniform. Remember like the severe incidents and people have been shot and things like that and all these sort of bloody things they tend to stick in your mind, the thing which travels with me the most and i wasnt even there was my best friend was killed during the Hunger Strike and this is this um and this is why this sort of republican celebration of it tends to sticking me a bit theres a lot of people die during not didnt want to die and um he was blown up in the seventh of. September um blowing the pieces basically only identificable the fingerprints just turned 20 years of age and um he had been transferred to um pomeroy and that was his first day on duty hes there for an hour and five minutes and um i still think about him and about that quite often and then theres other people that know quite well as well but you carry these things through your life. I think were all scared by what happened, and i suppose during your time in the oc, we ever, did you ever have the urge to join a paramilitary organization, were you ever pressurized to do that . Absolutely not, and even when i was growing up in ball selon, which were paramilitaries are very strong, and absolutely no inclination of it, i can give you story about how people did get into those sort of things and so about when i 16, myself and a friend, we went but heard that um theres born in shankle road with serve you werent too fussy about what age you were, so brown bear facing in shankle library, so we went in ordered a couple of pounds of harp sitting the table thinking were great guys, and then somebody comes over and start, all right fellows, starts shating to you and realize what this all is, where you from, all this sort of crack, your father and all this trying to figure out whether youre catholics or not, like i dont think anybody whose catholic is going to be doffed enough to go in there, and they say well um, what do you think . This place, fine, its all right, um, sure, um, we can swear you in tomorrow, nice is what he means for us in, he says, youre joining, arent you, i say joining what, he says the uvf, and theyre spat my bear out, so was the first time id been in this place in my life, and within 10 minutes walking in the door, somebody coming over trying to get me to join a uvf, of course i never went back near the place, but i will give you some idea. How easy it was for people to get involved and that sort of thing and just on that uh some were all shipped by our lived experiences 100 and i understand you served in springfield road yeah uh as we call the police station, yeah uh that to me as a child grown up was a place you know you heard stories of family members been tortured even friends of mine yeah that were in there were were beating and the me as as a child grown up the all you see were the enemy but obviously you had different lived experiences you were inside there looking out yeah do you want do you want to tell us a bit about yeah well its just um yeah its 1983 and i arrived up in there not too long after the. Hunger strike in the place it very forbidden appearance, it didnt have the blast wall around it down, it just had this wire outside um, and the reason the have a blast wall was the put bomb out there that rack hundreds of houses around it because it was rare place, you were right in the middle of people, and the yard of it had a big um corregated 10 fence and there was holes on it from where somebody had chucked the hanger it over, and a quiet evening you could be standing out there in the front yard and you could hear the televisions of people in vallet street who and their living rooms were seriously about six or seven feet from the front your so like the noise that they must have had from all the police and Army Vehicles and it was primarily an army post like the uc was down in um one corner of it um and the army. Occupied about 80 of the building so we had like army pigs and stuff like that parked about inside it the army did the security and then again it was overrun by furle cats, and you get these squatties running about drunning cats in the toilets and stuff like it was onreal, but in the Inquiry Office you had like these um bulletproof shotters over the windows, theres no natural light, and then behind it you had all these old newspapers must have been. Stuff to keep the draft out one day pilled them out like the we did it from 1972 and stuff like that um as a working environment it was horrible it was cramped the facilities you know were grim it was dangerous it was noisy but probably um the best bunch of people have ever worked with her and we chated earlier you had mentioned and i was amazed at the uh at the knowledge you had of ruc men and they were killed just around spring road, you want to tell us . Well, well for a start, um, a george cross was one in the Inquiry Office 1972 and a partrooper threw himself in a bomb which had been dumped in there, um, shortly before i arrived, theres a soldier killed at the caventy street entrance by an rpg7, a guy to work with, he is the first one down to attend to him, and the war head of the rpgs apparently went through the wall, the sanger and lodged inside him. Um again the year before three soldiers have been shot thead been m60 machine gun around the corner and um arra street 1979 there was a ruc officer shot dead as they reversed the land rover out the front gate and i think somebody had counted it up that there must have been about more than 20 members of Security Forces killed within about 30 yards the front gates of the place and along the front of the building was like riddled with bullet holes were cut. Used to drive up and down and spray the place. Sam you also served in toron, are there any was a very different serving along the border and are there any particular stories or reminence that you have from that time . Yeah, well rural areas are are very different from urban ones, um, introne as a sergeant and the mobile support unit, so though we packed up the local police in dungarnon, we also could be all over the place, like we went up to belfast up at ensworth avenue, the time the uvf guy. Blew himself up and a preater, but dunganon changed me, um, at one week, um, whereas within about 25 feet of three bombs inside a week, none of which went off properly. I remember thinking, i cant do this anymore, i need to get out of this, because it wasnt too long after two friends at Colin Mcmurray used to work with normal, she had been killed in uri, and another. Guy probably nobodys ever heard of guy called billy evans he ironically was killed by the army out the foot patrol up there new barnsley and an army landover ran over and killed them i remember speaking him a few months before said get out of there um i dont believe in much but i believe in the law of averages and if you push your luck too long sooner or later somethings going to happen to you so i think the deaths of those two were praying on my mind and i thought i need to get a job in headquarters or something you know because i gone through all these years of sort of near misses and something happened in the somebody changed the shift with me and seeing things happen the other people and i thought its a matter time for it happens to me so um applied for job and training and got that, we crossed our own pass, me and yourself through uh a reconciliation, informal lets say reconciliation program, yeah, how has it been for you on that kind of journey in reconciliation . Um, it hasnt made a profound difference, you know, um, i think as you get older you start reflect in life, and theres an old saying if you think the same at 40 as you did in 20, youve. Wasted 20 years, and and i started this interview by saying, i basically come from a couple hundred yards away, and the thought occurred to me one day, the idea that someone should be eternal enemy because they happen to be born 200 yards away from you, or born in the other side of a street from is absolutely absurd, its absurd, but thats a situation that we find ourself in here, so i thought of that, and again. Occasionally you see these little um inspirational quotes which may or may not be true, theres one supposed to be from Martin Luther king said that um heating someone is like um drinking poison and hoping theyll die, i could hit michelle all i want, youre not probably not even going to know but its not going to affect your life but itll affect mine and um is it going to make me any happier no, will it bring anyone back . No, is it going to make the future any better for people that are children now are unborn . No, so some people, thats their way to get through life is carrying grudges and resentments and hate, i just think it doesnt do any good and and it wasnt making me feel any better, you know, um, ip and large dont suffer from ptd or anything that anymore, and i think this has helped because in my mind the war is over. Theres other people cant accept that its over for many many reasons, some entirely legitimate, theyve suffered lot worse than i have, um, but as far as im concerned, its a right thing to do, its not going to change the world, but i think its up each and every individual to do their own little bit. I agree with you, sam, i think hate is very negative emotion and very wasteful, and you know, we all we all have to move on, so where do you stand on the reunification. Question, have you thought about our future politically . I am these days im pretty agnostic on it, um, i was always a supposed small you unionist, it wasnt a die hard, like i agreed with a statement heard quite early in my time in the place, where somebody says to me, um, im not too bothered about a united ireland, what i am, bothered about somebody trying to bomb me into it, um, any sort of affection i have. Had for the union died on the morning of the brexit referendum, not to me as watershed moment, um, cuz that to me showed it doesnt matter what we think here, you know, its what england wants really, i know people say as uk wide referendum, but theres no way that scotland and Northern Ireland should have been forced out against this will, and scotland in particular is like a distinct country and all. The rest of it, and also just think is incredibly stupid, i think that um, the uk basically that they decided to commit suicide, and im convinced to that, i think that historians look back that is the day when the union was fatally wounded and it was a selfinflicted woound, and on that, what would you like to see from republicans to go that extra bit that would maybe convince you uh that reunification would be enough . I think the. I see a bit of schizophrenia from republicanism, in the one hand, theres this outreach for want peace, but on the other, theres a sort of like constant propaganda war which is still being waged, and quite a bit of hostility continually refighting the troubles, and at some stage, this is going to have to stop, you know, um, unionist relations in the police or udr arent going to look up. Their relatives as evil child killers anymore than relatives, the ira men are going to regard their relatives and that and all the students winding people up and given people um an excuse not to talk to them, um, i think as society, and im not just pointing the finger republicans here, its all over, we need to stop absolutely wallowing in the past, were not remembering it. Wallowing in it, you know, did an article once that japan recovered from two atom bombs, quicker than Northern Irelands recovered from the troubles, 15 years after hiroshima, they were hosting the olympic. And one of the best economies in the world is they just decided the were not going to talk about all this were just going to move on and make better country. Youre still tuned into the conversation your weekly alternative probe of political events and Current Affairs through and our east lens. Im joined by my cohost Michelle Gildernew alongside historian and former ruc man sam thompson. All right, so close to where you were born and brought up, theres a massive community. Yeah, and that come out of a commemorating the or remembering internament, and and then turn it became a Community Festival as a more positive way of remembering the past, um, so you know, do you think that Something Like that could be replicated . I know its its it looks at and speaks to people from all political persuasions and none and its just such inclusive festival, you know, have you attended any events or havent . Have attended events in the past and i think its a very positive thing because i said arrived in springfield road 40 years ago and um i remember those annual internament things and it was sort of like that film the perge you know um the civilians sort of took it up the night anything goes from both them and the place like there was botting rounds far down and and they could be written off in a form which any other time the year to be what did you do that for . But those in tournament nights it was like ritualistic riding and you had people hurt and you had people occasionally getting killed so i think thats a m ill give credit where you thats marvelous credit primarily to shin for turning that round to have very destructive time and the something more positive um some the events are more across community than others but thats okay. You, if i dont want to go to something, i wont, you know, its like um, the annual bobby sans march, and may or whatever, doesnt bother me because i dont have to go anywhere near it, so yeah, thats good, and i would like to see that being extended across the shankle and east belfast, and maybe have a whole summer of cultural events, but you know, i think those events are worthwhile because um, youve now got you know unionists going to. Them and now um one of the commentators is going along and its letting also people in west belfast speak directly the people that they would normally speak to, so i think its all generally quite positive, i know theres a bit of controversy about one or two things, but b and large approve of it. This week we take a look at the history of partition, high was air and devaded and what does that meant for the population of the north over this last 100 years. Oficial partitioning of ireland took place in may 1921 via an act passed by the british parliament. The original intention was for both regions to remain within the united kingdom, but the irish war of independence led to the south succeding from the uk in 1922. Attempts at legislating the government of ireland act first began in 1886. The government of ireland act of 1920 was the fourth try at establishing home rule in ireland. That is, affording the country a certain amount of freedom to selfgovern while retaining its position as part of the united kingdom. Up to that point, ireland had been ruled by the Uk Parliament via their administration at dublin castle. Ever since the Irish Parliament was aboulish through the acts of union 1800. After many attempts at negotiating the division of the nine northernly counties of olster from the 23 remaining countries that comprise munster, lenster and connucht, only six. Within elster were included in the fourth irish home rule bill of 1920. This was to ensure a protestant majority for many years to come. After the third home rule bill was passed in 1912, ulster unionists had founded a Paramilitary Force named the olster volunteer force with the intention of resisting the bills implementation by violent means. Many British Army Officers stationed in ireland resigned and with nationalists having established their own military army and response. With both sides importing arms, a civil war seemed imminent. Eventually, a trial period of partition was also included in the third version of the irish home rule bill to appease unionists, but when world war one broke out in 1914, the bill was suspended. In attempt to take advantage of britains destraction with the war, insurrection was launched by irish revolutionaries on easter 1916. Following this rebellion, more attempts made to reach a compromise, such as the 191718 Irish Convention in dublin, with little success, in 199, the irish war of independence officially began. The government of ireland act was enacted in 1920 and the island was partitioned the following year. Home rule never came into effect in the south. Instead, the angloirish treaty of 1921, which ended the war in ireland, allowed the selfgoverning irish free state to be created, and thus the partitioning of ireland became official. And that does it for another week. Wed love for you to join the conversation by sharing the link to. Todays program to help us grow our audience across all our social media platforms. Id like to thank our special guest, sam thompson and our resident cohost michelle geldny. In the meantime, the conversation will be back next week with more investigations and analysis. Im sean murray. Bye for now. Depressers will coverage of this assassination of basmani now entering its uh fourth day, were looking at some uh