Alliance with the west they tried they failed to fortune the lines with poland they tried a pact which limited as they would seen it german expansion eastward would have made sense to there the problem is not that there are these divergent opinions about this event it is that in the west increasingly not talking about the historic story and talking about medium and talking about politics. We are not only hearing only one view of the maldives of ribbentrop pact each is becoming increasingly the all to dos view which everybody who wishes to be considered respectable and accepted is required increasingly to accept and that i think is dangerous thing because it distorts very badly our understanding of the events let you know not all and it also means that the last of us who were the principle country then suffered the raters losses during that war on and on in effect the disallowed from having an opinion about its own region yes particularly demons since that was the red army that liberated poland from from nazi occupation thats why i would disagree with alex about paul there are more school remember who liberated the country and they are dismayed by the fact that centrists of soviet soldiers who died in poland are being desecrated well the polish government says only removing the symbols but what is a memorial site and point you will have the emblem of the soviet union or in the fortress the portrait of stardom and you have the scription 3000 soldiers buried here if you take down the saw it then but im you destroy the memory these people are no longer there symbolically and the polish government is doing it right now so there are paulson talks in that situation that are the interesting point is that. I think there are 2 black legends about president putin and his attitude to history in the west the 1st is that he invaded ukraine and you can just go watch the television in the end of 2013 in the beginning of 20145 months long cool and put in only reacted. In march when it became inevitable that the new regime its all installed itself in ukraine but the other black legend is that putin supports the start in his narrative to and and you know there are facts if putin supported that narrative would he go in 2010 together with Prime Minister to the burial site or the. Offices massacred in khaki would he way the wrath of that would he go to vesta in 2009 when the diversity of the beginning of the war was set a break that 10 years ago he went there and put in well even though he knew he would be insulted by the hopes you know the polish president then said that poland cousin stabbed in the back from russia in 1939 soviet union from the security and well at the point that this ceremony in in also was not only russia was not invited even though. It droops would embrace that point also they forgot to invite all the president s of the Central Asian republics even though there were tens of thousands of who died in port they did not invite any of our from yugoslavia even though live it was lost so many people. Cant be compared to poor and the montenegrin. Dukane which said that you know djukanovic has been very anti russian during the last few years so when he said that im quoting him it would be very appropriate to invite someone from russia to show the grand role that the former soviet union played in liberating europe if you hear it from someone like your kind of age that these the 2 things that i always find very interesting is that people pick one moment in time and say its an emblematic of the rest of history moving forward but i mean when i think of the the start of the 2nd world war and subjects were 939. My 1st historical reference is the atrocity committed munich ok it was the western democracies that broke up. The checklist of state in an. Appeasement to the nazis here i mean if youre in moscow it respectively of your political coloration ok you can say hey you know here these countries france and britain and then you also also have italy but it was fascist at the time they were the ones that betrayed the International System but no its the pact that was the great trail of the International System that people that say that my point is the story of people that dont take that into account are a historical with. The mouse i question by referring back to something that alec said when he said well the coast opposer in view of the model. Of the view well yes public the polls or some polls are very politicized view of the theres russians all kinds of Different Countries a political views of the world but its politicized used as politics is also historical its historical truth and youre right the polls old i want to discuss some of the many ways analysis of it back and the. Information of eastern poland. And i dont want to discuss munich when poland was part of the end. Of 34 nonaggression pact with germany and i want to discuss the polish collaboration with in the 1930 s. That i want to discuss the obstruction of poland to the last negotiations between the soviet union come from britain and from here they want to present poland as a victim pure and simple and everyone else as being guilty in particular of course the soviet union be being guilty ok but as a historian im committed to telling the whole story all aspects of the truth even some aspects see. No i mean you know ive spent my whole life studying things from the soviet and russian you so obviously i have a certain identification with that point but i want to discuss even things that you know Russians Russian Federation putin or whoever im comfortable with that includes discussing. And the collaboration between Stalin Hitler after the pact i mean that theres a very good case to be made for in terms of real politic for the pact itself the 23rd of august thats my position is that theres a much much much more complex argument when you consider what happened after the pattern of the intense collaboration that was between the soviet Union Germany in the aftermath of the nazis of it our extreme in one minute before we go to the break here i mean. Jeffrey makes a very good point here in a its often tailored my point is that you just cherry pick what is selfserving in the present and that is exactly what were seeing and how the the landing at normandy the the end of the war in berlin what day you celebrated on there it all politically motivated 20 seconds before we go to break that alex absolutely and can i just come back to point Dimitri Babich makes yes there are many people in potent with diverse opinions if you treat one interpretation of the events of august 19th 39. 00 is the correct 1. 00 and 1. 00 you are not only distorting the development of russian and polish his relations discussion history youre also consolidates. Certain people in poland who have a particular political agenda who always want poland to be as jeffrey correctly said seen as the victim and never want to accept poland itself it agency and sometimes that actions are going to hold the hold that point were going to go to a short break and after that short break well continue our discussion on revisionism stay with us. What politicians do. They put themselves on the line they get accepted or rejected. So when you want to be president. Or some want to. Have to go right to be close this is what the 4 of them or can people get. Interested in the lawyers in the house. Theyre sitting. In a world of big partisan through things a lot and conspiracy its time to wake to dig deeper to hit the stories that Mainstream Media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door. And shouting past each other its time for Critical Thinking its time to fight for the middle for the truth the time is now for watching closely watching the hawks. Thousands of american men and women choose to serve in the countrys military and the decision that has shattered lives every time to a complete. The day that i was right to be instructed you know told to shut up what theyd kill me and i see how it destroyed my life many screamed at me and he made me come in and he grabbed my arm and he raped me with his birthing curia if you take into account that women dont report because of the extreme retaliation its probably somewhere near about half a 1000000 women have now been sexually assaulted in the us military is a very very traumatizing have happened. But ive never seen trauma like ive seen women who are veterans who suffered military sexual trauma reporting rape is more likely to get the victim punished dont be offended and almost 10 year career which shows very invested in and i gave sex offender who was not even going to justice or put on the registry this is simply an issue of our in violence male sexual predators for the large part of target whoever is there to prey upon whether thats man or when. The world is driven by shaped by. The day. Thinks. We dare to ask. Is a tense situation in venezuela is still all over the news the problem in venezuela is not that socialism has been poorly implemented but that socialism has been faithfully implemented for inside venezuela things look different were going to announce sanctions against petroleums to venezuela associate. Famous will have a son of a moment in that outpost and that political battle to stay on the path to the madness of the moment the focus of the whole story is a new mix im told in Henry Kissinger to tell him that it would not be tolerated in latin america. An alternative economic and social system could take hold and therefore the policy would be to make the chilean economy scream so wants to make unicon in the event as when a screed. Welcome back across town where all Things Considered im Peter Lavelle remind you were discussing revisionism. Ok demon before the break you really want to jump in and youre such a patient man please go well i think that jeff you rightly said that there was not just the pact itself there was the relation between the soviet union and nazi germany in there and of 1000. 00 such a night and it is not forgotten here there was a decision by the soviet parliament the socalled congress of people would step in 1008 109. 00 which condemned the secret protocols to the pact and which basically. It was still the soviet union it was still the soviet union but all the wars of the soviet union which do not contradict the laws of the Russian Federation are considered to be the go here you know so that legal norm is still all parable which in did not cancel it and if you look at his policies and if you look at their official statements from russia theyre all none of them justified the secret protocols well the other problem is that if the west wants to refute the pact completely then the onus should be returned to poor want us to be youll know basically it was taken by marshall ski in the 20th in an aggressive act started and you know there are no more humans to start in russia except in the museum soapbox there are more humans to kill all over paul you know hes considered a hero so if we return to the situation before the pact then we should the game change the borders. In Eastern Europe yes and these people you know who criticize russia. For you know seemingly justifying that act they dont want to do it i hope right so they should be consequential the other interesting moment that i think is important you know basically we are forced to defend ourselves because despite our russian desire to say good bye to the past and to ask for forgiveness and be forgiven the west coast and he reminds us all of our guilt and presses you know that bottom about that. For example even said that its a spanish newspaper just yesterday you know this article if the pact which is responsible for tens of millions of deaths so its not heat which the pack that is responsible if that back has been called the 2 days continued to you would be divided between 2 parts so would have subjective here what would happen i dont like subjunctive history but since the junk tip is used against us then i will use my subjective if hitler invaded not just poland you know im still the future soviet border if he invaded the whole poland up to means up to kiev you know what would happen to the jews who had been living there for the same very good point if you could it would be all that german to try to address have been what i was to say if you want to go back to the situation before the 2nd world war then western ukraine should be handed over to poland. To ok you can condemn the masses of it but it did result in the united better russia and the united ukraine you know ethnically united. Also had the effect of actually create a fairly ethnically. Poland yes. It was no way to get right it was is just cherry picking here so alex i want to change gears a little bit here i mean we still have in 2019 pauls arguing about the past and pointing fingers at russia but unfortunately they have passed up or or avoided or ignored historical precedent of reconciliation i mean a lot of people that are watching this program that are keenly interested in history know the history the acrimonious relationship that france and germany had prior to the 2nd world war that reconciliation is a model for the poles and the russians to emulate but there is but for it to be emulated you have to have both parties only one party doesnt want to do it the other one does go ahead alex were all this is exactly the point you understand about this is that poland actually is a country that is no longer threatened by russia i mean those quarrels over territory over borders the email was talking about how they got poland voted the way it was called up and it very substantially territory in the west where shes now of course you know from germany nobody suggesting that but it is going to look someone that poland however is very much in russias neighborhood it is playing in my opinion and extremely reckless by supporting people in ukraine which is an area which brings you to confrontation with russia hes talking continuously about russia some sort of the 1st 3 when as i said russia is not in any conceivable sense and in verse 3 and the effect of this is that hes creating tension both between poland and russia and between russia and the rest of europe because of course poland is a part of europe now if we can move beyond this and the french and german parallel is i think a valid then we can stop. Yeah you want a peaceful situation in Eastern Europe like the one we have in west europe where wars no longer really. Moment. Because. Theres no reason theres no reason in principle why the anniversary of the war should be a divisive story in principle if you defy that the bursar you know the starting point for that unity is that it was hitlers will hitler or the nazis not nazi germany was the star it wasnt mostly soviet back wasnt even the british and french appeasers or you know the prewar polish government it was hitler it was hitlers will and thats thats what everyone can unite around he is being anti. And then turning on merkels presence there actually confirms that. The sins of the past. 10 years ago when you had to 73 there was a similar ceremony in poland was that that was at this hour and made some very critical remarks about the nazi it. The political situation has changed since 2001 of the year but you have a different polish government and you have a different a different a different context you know the war should be. A focus for unity across europe not a matter of division its a merit division because of political choices made by political leaders in Different Countries you know i think the fact that war now is division and not unite and it was something about our times because even in the sixtys and the seventys that situation was very different and the polish president in his interview today bill you know that german newspaper when asked about reconciliation with germany he said. Basically german and polish i thought it priests back in the 60 s. Issue that slogan when. Forgiven and were asking for forgiveness remember but when he was asked if you can use the same formula with russia he said no way im to have the russians recognize their aggression in september 1939 and you know russians are emotional people just like course when we see and then just sometimes the backlash is so strong that with some circles in russia yes it was almost justifying the pact but this is not the government it is their part of the Public Opinion that is like that and its a backlash to what we have been seen in warsaw for example on the 1st of september who were invited them arrogance the germans the british people who had no role in liberate in poland in 194945 at least no direct role and also i think its very important to notice that when steinmeier the german president and do the visit its very little you know this is a polish town destroyed by the german planes in the beginning of the war do the said that these play should be remembered as a good think of that spain although i do assure ground thats france as leaders that i think the Czech Republic know well what about starting out and then grant who suffered more i mean these were medians people starve to death in leningrad there were hundreds of thousands of People Killed by the error rate in studying the german. And the polish president is not even as mentioned in the military assault on the civilian population youre learning im saying this just to explain why some people in russia have such bitter feelings that they go all the way to saying that broadly a probably we should not have cared about the policy in the 1st place you know in the middle back in london you every time Geoffrey Robertson i speak in moscow eventually the issue. The world war a Television Series the big o. Is made in the 1970 s. Its very interesting i think its the best documentary series ever made ever and but it couldnt be made today because of the politics of toxic politics that we have of today what you could in the 1970 s. I think it says a lot about how people use history as a political weapon go ahead oh absolutely i mean the situation in Historical Research and scholarship here has deteriorated at least not perhaps in Story Research but the way in which it has been communicated to the public its really politicians so you see the media we have moved away from a situation where people are being informed to where theyre probably gaddaar east which is extremely dangerous and extremely bad and you dont want those shows arent think of fundament. In generations because it was in the 1970 s. When that series was made most of the people who were involved in that series support in the war. Fought in the war all they had a direct standing and feeling for the wall and even in the worst of the cold war that was the sense that the soviet union and the west walked alongside each other against terrible evil now that is dissolved being. Seen stead what you call revisionism which is actually in this context a. T. s Information Campaign about to start the 2nd ball will is increasingly gaining. I would be pessimistic because as i mean there is this reason is because there is this propagandize few of the war but i dont think you should confuse you know the vehemence with which propagate by the politicians and subsets of the media with his simple exceptions by the public and he an improper i think theres a lot. The pushback pushbike about it that all of common sense about the war itself you know that the historical memory of the law and science the soviet unions role in the war at that moment of unity in the 1940 s. I dont think thats been completely because so many of the so because so many of the other wars the west is fought has been so murky and unclear and the goals seem to be more propaganda but that was a war that you have to eat can easily come out and i think we should perhaps give people a bit more credit to be of the people more to see for this this propaganda and politics on that note there gentlemen weve run out of time many thanks to my guests here in moscow and in london thanks to our viewers for watching us here argue see you next time and remember cross talk was. Make this manufacture consent to public wealth. When the ruling classes protect themselves. When the final merry go round lifts only the one percent. Nor middle of the room 6. 1000000. Were. Going to see the falls so. You can sit. Down. Its a good. Song to me shes on that sound a soft spot a mouthpiece down at this time i dont. Need to promote. The d. C. Police through the Police Reports for the way. They all see themselves as dying swans in their dreams. But only one in the cells will ever make it to the top. Theyre ready to give their lives for the chance to die on stage if only once. Not even broken wings ditto. For generations at the madrid. Ballet sweat and tears. But if she warn you and i do the dishes at the bottom or those jeans near the speech and you see me you. Know muffin when you. Mean yes i mean that is without inference involved. A lot of. Fuzz if i try to condense out the. The. 5 days doing nice is. An illusion to you from the people who simply knew she would include in. God and. Top level talks between the leaders of russia turkey and iran a well underway and of the current state and future of the syria crisis. The highest one day surge prices in close to 30 years has seen this monday it comes on the back of attacks on society arabian Oil Refineries while the us promised finger at iran for the assault on them vehemently denies its involvement. As india climbs down on the disputed territory of kashmir separatists need to await trial in decades old murder case we hear from his wife. Imagine any human being locked up in a cage fight by