Is here bringing in your feedback throughout the program. This is one of those topics where you feel like 10 years later, sort of out of sight, out of mind. Horrific images seared into my mind. I will never forget it. But i think most americans are forgetting it. Doubting tom says 1010 years ago it was brought to light. You probably remember some of the images can be disturbing to see. Food and water deprivation, pouring phos phoric liquids, feeding and rape. It was at a time the Bush Administration a conversation on torture and the threshold for obeying superior orders in times of war. Many speculate abu ghraib was the Tipping Point that led to at a time. Eliminating tore temperature. The United States of america does not torture. We can make that commitment here tonight. Was it an end of enhanced interrogation techniques . There have been several cia secret prisons blow the radar. In t just this week, an Afghan Government commission claimed to have uncovered two secret prisons run by the u. S. And britain in southern afghanistan. In an upcoming u. S. Senate report is set to trort testify black sites. What is the true legacy of abu ghraib and what does it mean for the nations Foreign Policy and National Security . We have great guests to discuss this onset. Adam goldman. He has done extensive investigative reporting on cia secret prisons. On skype, karen greenberg, director of the center on National Security and sebastian gork a, military affairs fellow at the foundation for the defense of democracies. Welcome, everyone, to the show. Adam, 10 years since everybody at abu ghraib was exposed. I remember at the time, there was public outrage. There was this incredibly high visibility in the media, in congress, and i think there was a sense of the American Public that when it gets this much attention, obviously something is going to shift. Has anything shifted significantly . I can tell you what hasnt shifted. We are still talking about quote, unquote torture. We are talking about what the American Government did to these individuals in abu ghraib and more recently, what the cia did as part of this program to detainees and black sites, you know, across Eastern Europe and in thailand. And it seems that the government, the u. S. Government, just cant escape its past. Karen, by not escaping its past, does it continue its former actions . Well, i dont know if it continues its former actions, but it leaves open the possibility of continuing those actions, largely because the people who designed and implemented these policies and abu ghraib was only a very small part of the larger issue of a concerted torture policy. But the people who implemented and designed this have not been brought to justice, have not been held accountable in any way, have not been exposed for the most part to the public. Therefore, it seems like a viable, nonpunishable, however illegal, policy that went forward. And so, thats what we lived with in terms of the future of abu ghraib. We are talking about some current amnesia here kenneth says, unfortunately, none of my students have the slightest clue about the tragic legacy of abu ghraib. He calls it igen amnesia. You just heard karen. In the 10 years since abu ghraib, no highlevel cia agent or private contractor has been charged or brought to trial. Why is that . Okay. Lets stop confusing two different issues here. The idea that nobody was punished for abu ghraib is fallacious. I said nobody who designed or from a high level implemented the policy. As to what we are talking about with regards to being designed, but lets separate enhanced interrogation from abu ghraib. Abu ghraib was not endorsed or designed by anybody. It was a group of mostly reserve military individuals who were out of control, and when it was uncovered, they were punished, soundly punished and court martialed. If you want to talk about enhanced interrogation and the cia procedures, thats another question. We can talk about that. But i think its very interesting that the president has been given a dose of reality and he has kept in place most if not all of the procedures that his predecessor did, whether it was the use of drone strikes or other very, very muscular approaches to the threat. So lets not talk about the inheritance or legacy of abu ghraib because abu ghraib was not designed nor was it endorsed by anybody. It was a group of rogue actors that were punished. So can i respond . Sure. Go ahead. Okay. It is true that those were rogue actors and what they called rotten apples at the time. There were five military reports done by the u. S. Government officially after abu ghraib. There were many actually. The first five talked about the gray area between what the military was doing and what the presence of cia officers at prisons was doing. This is true at abu ghraib. This is true at guantanamo. So, yes, it is true to separate these stories but it is not true that the policies did not bleed into one another and were not used in a way that affected one another. So, yes. There were rogue apples. It was also a policy and thothose rotten appleales fit in to the agenda. The generals who ran abu ghraib from the interrogation side and detention side have attested to this. They are not inseparable as you have said, i dont think. Adam, you know, the Afghan Government this week is saying they have identified two black sites operating on bases in afghanistan. We are expecting a congressional report on the same in jabuti. Whats the didnt 2010 abu ghraib and what happened there and whats country going on at these black sites . Listen. I dont know about ciarun black sites in afghanistan. What i know is according to the president of the United States, there are no ciarun detention facilities in the world. He stopped though. If the cia is running a clandestined prison, it is a huge story. I havent seen any evidence that exists. The cia black sites run in thailand, poland, romania, lithuania. Why were they . They were controlled by the cia, not the host governments. The cia had a facility in morocco. That was not a ciarun prison. That was run and controlled by the moroccans. Big difference between what the cia was doing and whats happening now. There are examples of governments such as the kenyans, the somalis. You name the Government Holding people. They are probatixies for us. We go and visit them but we are not holding them. Dont Afghan Intelligence services, agency, doesnt it have a pretty tight lockdown on whats happening within its country . We dont need a black site in afghanistan. They are part of a covert action. When the Afghan Intelligence Service Picks up people and takes them to a facility, the cia has an office there. They have people there. They can go. They can visit. But technically, the after gans are holding them. Did her offered a definition of black sites thats my definition. The 911 Commission Report recommended that there be specific guidance on treating foreign prisoners. Almost a decade later, have we established a uniform law on how we treat international detain detainees . The answer is up next. Welcome back. We are discussing secret cia pripzs around the world 10 years after the American Public learned of prisoner torture at abu ghraib. How has policy changed under obama . Is there an official u. S. Policy on detainees . Yeah. Thats a lablths large question. The issue of torture as you played the clip from president obama is essentially part of the past. The United States doesnt torture. It doesnt consider it i will to tore illegal to torture. It doesnt consider it okay that torture was performed in the past in the name of this country. In terms of detainee treatment, i think there is a broad swath that is not necessarily torture. You have to start with do they have legal rights . How many of them are in definite detention . How many have access toss counsel . All of that has gotten better since the beginning of the war on terror. Its not where it needs to be. In terms of how we interrogate, the line is that the United States whether its the military or others should follow the army field manual. Does not include the kind of enhanced interrogation techniques that were approved for use at black site did and elsewhere. So, thats where we stand today, but really where we stand is not knowing what was done yet, and thats why i think there are two things that we need to talk about that are going on country. One is the senate report, which the Intelligence Committee has prepared, a 6 thousandplus page report on what was done at these plaque sites and what kind of techniques were used and what kind of information was revealed during this time. And the other is whats happening at guantanamo right now . Which is that the military commissions and this their progress has been seriously impeded this week by the ruling of the judge that what happened at these black sites is going to have to be presented in court in conjunction with one of the 911 with one of the defendants. So these are two realtime oerpsz that are putting this administration and its refusedal to really deal with the torture policy in a transparent way into the cross hairs of current event did. Thats why talking about abu ghraib now is really very important and very pertinent to the current moment. Sebastian, i want you to be back in the conversation . The fact is that we have continuity and we have change. We have certain issues that have been revised, the uniform code of military justice is now being seen to more closely which i warmly we believe. I thought always enhanced interrogation was a bad idea and, also, hopefully, there is less use of contractors in any form of interrogation. I have been an advocate that nobody should be doing interviewing or interrogation unless they are a federal agent or a member of the Armed Services so that they are in a recognized chain of command these are all things that are very difficult to the judge from the outside. Abu ghraib, i think we have to put it to a complete and separate category as your guest has said, the enhanced interrogation measures have been manned by the Current Administration and i welcome that. We have sebastian on twitter says the fact that we, the United States, have secret black site prisons goes to show how much our empirical i think he is talking about empire is overstepping his bounds. Adam, i enjoyed the research you did on the black site in poland called corts. They turned cottages into black site prisons. There was waterboarding done there. Who has over sitoversight . Thats a question. There wasnt a lot of oversight. Because the cia restricted the information that was begin out to the Senate Select committee only the chairman and vice chairman and two staff directors knew from congress from that side how could four people do oversight on a massive Intelligence Program from the cia, its pretty clear there was not effective oversight in the program, itself. People forget an enormous amount of information has already come out about what happened in these black sides from the cias inspector general, john hilgerson president obama declassified in 2009. We have an enormous amount of information on what happened there. It was clear from this report that people were using unauthorized techniques, techniques that were not approved, you know, they were doing mock executions. They were taking brushes, you know, and hard brushes across their skin. They were doing all sorts of things, and thats whats in common. Thats what these black sites have in common with abu ghraib. I agree it was a bunch of yahoos who went rogue but it wasnt sanctioned by the general Councils Office of the pentagon. What we found in abu ghraib is the same thick we found in the same thing we found in poland and the same thing that the Senate Select schmidt on investigation is going to find in a cia black site in afghanistan that was closed down. The oversight, there was not proper oversight. Thats the important connection between these two things. Is it intentional that there is not proper oversight . Yeah. I think so. I mean what happened on the Senate Select committee on intelligence is that the cia goes to the chairman and says we are going to brief you on this program, you and the vites veryman. In order for them to tell the full committee, they have to agree to it. The republican on the committee didnt. So, it pulls these oversight committees in a tough spot. I think thats going to come out. I think thats going to really come out. The site he was referring to, that was open for less than a year . A little longer. Where did the detainees go when they are shifting from black site to black site . So many have closed down . I have tracked their movements in polands case that closed i believe september 22nd, september 23rd, 2003. You can see from the flight data that the europeans made available that, you know, that prison was cleared out. I think they were put on a boeing 727 and it made stops in morocco and eventually ended up in romania. People from poland were dispersed to lithuania, roman i cant and morocco. What are the agreements like with these other governments . How does america get to take a prisoner from poland to morocco or to any other country . Now, the europeans are learning to the full extent of how their government is operating with the cia. Guess what. They are pissed. People are very angry. This is going to the european courts. I think its possible they might recognize what happened to an individual named amu zubada and abnul mishuri in gitmo. We talked about black sites, detdeposition. Is this a Necessary Evil in todays dirty war . Gary said, since said necessary gained evil gained us so little no, its only been successful at damaging image pabroad. Lost in this conversation, what cheney and rest of them talk about is these are ticking time bombs. Right . We need to know. We need to know what they know in order to stop the next attack. What americans forget is that in 2009, three guys from ing queens went off to pakistan, got trained by alqaeda, were going to come back and blow up the new york city sub wachlthsz, an email was intercepted. The f. B. I. Interviewed one of the subjects. Okay . This guy named nasha bulizazi, brought him to the fbi headquarters. What did they do . Sat down and talked with him. They talked with him. What did he do three days later . He admitted everything. He admitted everything. This was the ticking time bomb scenario. You didnt need to get it from waterboarding, through slapping. You needed to get it through putting people on a liquid diet or in a box. They simply i had to them. This individual admitted to, to what happened. He turned on the other two co conspirtors. Is that your recommendation for all terrorist suspects, that we should sit down with them and have a nice chat . I dont know. I talk to a lot of people. I sit down and have a chat and they tell me things they are not supposed to. Sebastian, i am sure it goes against the grain of most american sensibilities when they see what happened at abu ghraib and hear these detailed reports but at the same time, we have to recognize that these are extracted incidents. Its not in context. How important is context in this . Hugely important. Say the individual you are sitting down with has sworn i am an alzawahiri and would wish nothing less than cutting your head off in the name of allah. So the idea that everybody is a terrorist is going to let everything spill out of the back if you ask them nicely. Thats beyond naive. So, of course, everything is could be texas annual and your guest doesnt think all terrorists are nice people who will want to share all of their operational information with you. Thats not adam, let me Say Something here the this is not about nights interrogation. Its not nice interrogation. Very few people who have been in fbi custody asked about a crime are treated what we would call nicely although, you know, there may be stories to that effect. This is about lawfully interrogation this is about the kind of interrogation that goes on in a society of laws hand and one that goes on bar baric times. The reason this is importantbar. The reason this is important if you talk to fbi agents and others in Law Enforcement and adam, you can chime in they tell you whether its naduabazi. They believe in their cause. Ksm lied. Ksm lied. He talked. He just said everything, you know. True. Look. The report will address the f. B. I. Agent who spent three months with abu zabata and they have learned he wasnt the number 3 in alqaeda. They have learned from him many, many, many they got actionable intelligence by talking to him. All right. Not by waterboarding him. On that note, thank you so much to our guest, adam goldman, karen greenberg. Stay with us. Up next on World Press Freedom day, we talk to journalists about the consequences of speaking truth to power including one who survived a recent assassination attempt on his life. On real money with ali velshi, a yearlong series, americas vanishing middle class. Im on a mission, that i have to keep this business going. Three families struggling every day we had to pull the whole retirement fund. Real stories. Real people. Real advice. You need to pay the water bill, if you dont pay it, were shutting your water off in a half hour how will you survive . The stakes are so high. Americas middle class rebuilding the dream on real money with ali velshi on Al Jazeera America consider this on Al Jazeera America. Welcome back. Those were some photos showing support for some of our own al jazeera colleagues who have been detained for 126 days in egypt. One has been on a Hunger Strike since august. Its World Press Freedom day and a new report just out by the committee to protect journalists says global Media Freedom is at a 10year low. A humbling experience around this topic . To celebrate our peers, i checked out the museum. 1 in 6 people live in a country where the press isnt free. The stream is coming at you from the newsuem. We are about about to check it out. Journalists face serious dangers such as harassment, imprisonment and murder. The u. S. State department is calling on all governments to protect the freedom right of human of expression. An attack on press freedom is an attack on press freedom everywhere. Journalism is not a crime. It isnt. However, the Obama Administration has used the espy onnage act to prosecute seven whistle blowers, more than all previous administrations combined. Attacks in jummists have increased with more than 6 murdered in past 20 years. I am at the journalist memorial. All of the phases behind me are people who have died or been killed in the pursuit of news. In 2014 alone, 16 journalists were killed and 166 journalists remain in pripz worldwide including four of our al jazeera colleagues in egypt. Joining us is rasa rumi and courtney raj for the committee to protect journalists. You had an attempt on your life. Your driver was killed. Our condolences to you. Will you walk us through what happened . Well, whatever happened was a shock to me as well. I am still trying to recover from that. Basically, an Extremist Organization spread bullets on my car. I was lucky. I ducked and lay on the floor of the car and saved my life. But they thought they had sprayed enough bullets to have killed me and walked away but sadly, or luckily i lived to tell my story. You know, some of these attackers have been arrested by the police in pakistan. But it remains to be seen i am alive because of the general insecurity i faced, me and my family that had to be away from the country for some time. Courtney, raza has a tendency to focus on topics that anger extremists, militants so as unpleasant as it is to think about, you can understand why he may be in harms way. What is the safety and secured like for its not good in pakistan and around the world. In fact, we have seen rising numbers of journalists killed, journalits being imprisoned, going in to exile. I think that we have seen based upon covering politics is more dangerous than covering war. Its often those political topics that end up putting journalists like raza in harms way. We have about 30 seconds left. What do you want people to remember about every journalist like yourself thats out there around the globe . Well, i think the real key problem is that in many countries of the world, there is impunity. A culture of impunity which enables stackers to harm journalists. I think that has to be done away with. There has to be more Global Solidarity of mary, many other colleagues of ours who are facing very did i feel conditions and risk their lives to report the truth. Thanks to our guests. Until next time, raj and i will see you on online. This is Al Jazeera America. I am Thomas Drayton in new york. Lets get you caught up on the top stories this hour. It was really tough. Seven military observers are free in eastern ukraine. An attack that killed more than 40 russian supporters dramatically increases tensions in the country. The grim reality in afghanistan, thousands liable dead. Many more thousands now homeless. The language of the blind, why braille may actually become extinct. We will take you to
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