Storm is dangerous if you don't follow warnings from officials this storm could kill you the boss of R.B.S. Says trust in the bank could take up to a decade to restore its 10 years since it was bailed out by taxpayers into now returned to profit but Russ McEwen says there's a long way to go the Army is investigating after Tommy Robinson posted a photo of himself surrounded by a group of young soldiers the far right activist also put a video on Facebook showing men cheering and shouting his name the U.K.'s 1st happiness course has been set up at the University of Bristol it will encourage students to carry out random acts of kindness and teach them other exercises to help them lead more satisfying life instead by Professor Bruce Hood. We've had. Several tragedies over the past couple of years which is sort of spotlight on this problem but actually when you look around the higher education sector you discover that this is an international problem there's something going wrong the students are now start to feel so stressed that they're not enjoying their studies T.V. Dramas have been accused of being unrealistic by having too many powerful female characters Daisy Goodwin the screenwriter of Victoria says there's something slightly troubling about shows like bodyguard while I think it's brilliant to make television aspirational say that little girls watching it think oh yes I can grow up to be a sniper I think they also have to be aware that actually there is still a great deal of sexism and racism in institutions and the turns that's all going away I think is sort of airbrushing reality and tourism bosses in Cambridge and to encourage Chinese tourists to visit in small groups dozens of visitors from the country regularly gather for organized tours around the university cities narry streets visit Cambridge and beyond says groups of 50 standing in front of landmarks is a problem spot now with James Buffett the England manager Phil Neville has called refereeing standards in his size 11 draw against Australia unacceptable the Lionesses were denied 2 penalty claims and had a goal wrongly ruled out for offside Northern Ireland manager Michael O'Neill says he's disappointed that Kyle Lafferty has ruled himself out of the nation's league games against Austria and Bosnia Herzegovina O'Neill said the Rangers strike a contacted him over the weekends to inform him of the surprise absence in boxing Billy Joe Saunders has been refused a license to defend his W B O middleweight title against Demetrius on driveway because of an adverse drug test the W B O is yet to comment but there is a chance Saunders could lose his title and British show jumper Jack Whittaker has won a silver medal at the Youth Olympics and when I say Aries 34 years after his father Michael achieved the same thing. At the Los Angeles Games this is B.B.C. 5 Live on digital online smartphone and stop it click on the where the frame will become increasingly confined to northwest Scotland and the northern islands but for the vast majority it will remain dry with clear spells mist and folk will develop in the south. Slopes the rugby league he's here this is our We've got On AM and F.M. Around the K. On digital and online Iraq shop were up all night back at the start of the millennium way Ananda Dicaprio starred in a movie about a tobacco addict traveller who lands in our time to tell becomes fascinated by the stories told by his strange story our hotel neighbor about a beach he knows copiers question will lead him to the most beautiful most isolated beach in the world the trouble is it's not anymore 200 boats a day and up to 5000 tourists an hour landing on my A big day which has become one of Thailand's most visited tourist destinations place quite clearly it is becoming ruined and now the Thai authorities decided it's time for it close. All over Britain it's 5 to 5 PAs night at the Cannon Ball house on Mulberry Street and Mack on Georgia in the Times most thrilling moment of the Civil War a troop of young Union soldiers fired a cannon at their confederate opponents who shot may still be inspected when it landed in the vestibule floor 5 PA state on the campus of Kilgore College on Ross Street in Kilgore East Texas only a mother should love the pictures displayed in the Museum of the college drill team the Kilgore ranger at 5 past 7 at the Copper Queen her talent Bisbee Arizona the place to stay since 1902 and 5 past 5 on Chief shakes island in Southeast Alaska tourists are the only people come up now to that tribal house of the bear but once up to $100.00 people went to tier in the dampen the smoke for a too short summer while talk about a too short summer this challenge just ramping up for their rather long summer as we join Phil Marsar in Sydney Hello Phil Well he wrote How you doing very good thank you indeed and you are getting ready for it aren't you everybody's dusting off the old sometime Lucian and you've already had I think you said you were expecting last time we spoke temperatures of 28 degrees one day. Not today we are having very serious thunderstorms and lots of lightning strikes today and it is bucketing down and quite unusual thing for people who talk a lot to talk about the weather that most Sydneysiders don't necessarily like these very wild conditions but we are crying out for rain last week right I was in Samoa at a very important tourism conference that the B.B.C. Was involved with moderating some of the panel discussions and it rained almost every day we were there but the locals say it's like having pearls from heaven so it might not be the sort of holiday weather you like but of course it is vital to sustain island nations and every nation in the world so yeah the rain in Sydney today is pretty is pretty bad but we are anticipating a bit more rain and we do need it because as we have spoken about many times you and I rode the entire state of New South Wales is officially in Drayton in drought so the hope is that some of the rain that we're getting here on the eastern seaboard actually finds its way further west into more rural areas of New South Wales so those very dry farms you and I have spoken about before get a decent drenching to your whole story a bit of course very dry land is not very good at absorbing 3 inches of rain in an afternoon or whatever it turns out to be. You know oftentimes it just rolls off much of the water that falls on Sydney of course just run straight into the ocean and you do often hear that enough rain falls on Australia's biggest city to sustain it for an entire year but of course capturing all that rainfall is is a problem too and in the next hour or so we're going to talk about another thing that's very important in the skies for Australia airlines and last week a United Airlines flight coming from Los Angeles to Sydney made a mayday call above Australia as biggest city it prompted a full emergency response and we're going to 1st get the views of Dr Richard woo rich it is an associate professor of the script the school of aviation at the University of New South Wales and I'm also joined for a longer chat during the course of this Australia our road by Chris Flynn Chris is the chief executive and the founder of the World Tourism Association for culture and heritage thanks very much for coming in today Chris and thanks very much for joining us too Richard from the University of New South Wales 1st of all Richard just take us through exactly the procedure of that mayday call from that United Airlines flight above Sydney last week yes good day the mayday call. Or as it. Happened last Thursday and at 5 47 am United Air 39 made the mayday call and because they at the time they were burning their reserve feel so they needed the priority to land and so they met men and medical. So this mayday call it sounds very dramatic when you look at the movies for example you could imagine the the response on the ground it did prompt a full emergency response didn't it here in Sydney and I'm writing thinking Richard the roads around the airport were closed as a matter of procedure I guess. Yes there or was there was a standard procedure responding to a mayday call because of the Petain shore danger or the aircraft could be in so for you mergence you can sponsor was activated as Sydney Airport and also by air traffic controllers instructing already. Aircraft around the same time to kill a to hold in around the Sydney metropolitan area in order to give you a flight a priority and why would that flight coming from Los Angeles across the Pacific Why would it have got so low on fuel this was a Boeing Dreamliner So state of the art why was there such a problem with the fuel do you think. The field calculation especially 1st of all that flight between Sydney and the Los Angeles is self it's actually quite unique in the world 1st of all because it's a long distance work. 14 hours and a 2nd thing is that if a lot of fly fries through the Pacific Ocean through the equator where the weather tends to be uncertain. So the fuel care creation itself becomes complex for such a journey and it cost a mayday call it because at times you have flight was already flown into the green the last 30 minutes reserve fuel so in such a way in is that the fuel they carried out down to Los Angelos at those times it was actually not entirely sufficient and Chris Flynn in your experience of the aviation industry is this is this unusual I think this situation is very unusual. Quite rightly have said that you know flying across the Pacific is one of those. Sort of unique areas of the world the other thing is we're going against the spin of the planet and if you've got strong headwinds which happens a lot you're going to burn more fuel but it's highly unusual for a crew to get those kind of calculations wrong on a state of the Arctic aircraft like a Dreamliner 900 series you know it's quite mind boggling interestingly with some of the aircraft coming out of there the A 380 S coming from Dallas and from Los Angeles some of them can actually make it so they drop into Brisbane to fuel before coming down to Sydney that was the case and I've been on those flights numerous times so yeah it is a bit of a anomaly flying across the Pacific but. I was really quite stunned to hear what had occurred last week and Richard those 194 people on board or see the crew would have been aware of those passengers would they have been told as a matter of routine that look this is what we've said and this is the situation. I'm not quite sure what they have been told but usually when a mayday call is triggered the captain would usually tell the passengers we are now in a situation there may be a bit in danger you need to do so for example go to a brace position or something not so but having said that having said that the fuel calculation I wouldn't say that flight today they made a calculation wrong because of the fuel calculation especially for Sydney and Los Angeles as as Chris mentioned earlier is actually quite challenging because of all uncertainties flying across the ocean so what it means is that when all of our current flights album Los Angeles head into Sunni and also the same thing away back they do need to consider that the traffic the weather forecast and also the possibility of the possible change for example a freind brought out of cute and also the Russians and us all a lot of uncertainties are involved in actual flight operations so for us right is sounds you stance very very different chords because they trigger made a call by you for you think about that uncertainties involved in the field calculation then is actually. A analyze entry try very very hard to to carry enough fuel by for such a long journey that you just need to be very careful because if you carry more fuel then the aircraft becomes havea then you actually burn more fuel so this is this where it becomes very challenging for airlines. I think you're right and with these super long haul flights that we're seeing right now you know every flight time 1515 and a half hours it does become very complicated when you're flying up to the Northern Hemisphere in winter as an example. The crews Quantas crews and others who are flying say from Singapore or Malaysia or into into the U.K. They will determine based upon the weather how much fuel they need to take if that means offloading freight and a lot of freight they will strip it down and the put as much fuel on there as possible because of course when you when you're dealing with aircraft particularly in A 380 not so much the Dreamliner we're talking about but you need to have reserves in place and you need to have a plan in place that allows you to land at an airport that can take those particular types of aircraft so it is a it is a very complicated series of scenarios that you need to do you need to consider before you depart an airport like L.A. Or San Francisco but I'm still I was still quite surprised to learn of this particular event. Rod here Chris and Richard thank you so much for going to talk to us this is so interesting as a complete outsider. To you too you both are supposed to Richard the Dreamliner is a much lighter player I mean it's made of carbon fiber and it's therefore you know much more efficient and all that does that have anything to do with this I mean would it have been more easily at the merest see of the wind you know than than a conventional plane. Well not entirely because the Dreamliner is more fuel efficient you means that for flying the same mission the dream oh no we're burned less fuel than our aircraft but my team found now the record of that morning for example there were 5 flights departing Los Angeles heading to sin that evening and the flight by American Airlines diverted to Honolulu halfway. Half way through sin and the flying routes all of your way is was actually quite similar to on his flight and the Virgin Australia flight So having said that the fuel car collision is self can be complex so the weather at night was a little bit more headwind perhaps in the process they encounter more when then he's back to it and so it's in today reserve fuel and because of the procedure they needed to make a mayday call if that this is YOUR wasn't to divert to somewhere else just like Chris mentioned So this isn't really a comment on the on the type of plane it's more to do with the route self is more it's probably more to do with the of the few or scull collation and the flight dispatch for example quite a few years ago there were quite a few incidents fide Ryanair inspan on the same lines because of the weather situation metry. Flights were diverted to Valencia and among them 3 of them were violent run flights and 3 of them way to violence each one of the Korea made a fuel mayday call so there was probably the oddest even NG ever I have ever since so so so what can you say about that I think it's some is it what you well I don't want to comment about Ryan as fuel policy tech at the time but it was it was more about weather forecasts and certain Dick and also feel calculation how you consider those uncertainties I think. That if your instructor vision it because we think everything is so mapped out in the forecasting is so efficient and so good but our pilot still discovering things of a high level when they just couldn't be told about it. No the weather or the forecast is self for a lot of uncertainties and is as required that number and for usually 4 for flights across continents. And within a continent is a lot easier to to forecast but across the ocean the weather can be quite and predictable so this why in the beginning I said that the frauds album us in Need to the west coast of us and also between Sunni and for some pole cheese and the Argo and the Johannesburg in South since US every car there so that very tricky for us because there's a long distance across the ocean here then then the weather forecast becomes very calm tens probably more uncertainties here. Well thank you very much for today Phil. I was thinking Chris in terms of the Civil Aviation Authority here saying that that United Airlines flight had 40 minutes fuel left given that margins for airlines have been under pressure and fuel is a very important component of profits and losses is there an economic reason why perhaps fuel is the the when you measure the fuel how much fuel you need for that journey is there an economic reason behind maybe sort of. Not putting on less than than you need but just getting it exactly right so that you're spending less money well the fuel is always going to be Burns anyway. You know you know you can have to use fuels on stage I don't think that the fuel policy certainly for airlines that we're talking about right now is an issue safety is always the issue so as I say I'm not I'm not familiar enough with this particular case but I agree with Richard whether it must have played a significant part 40 minutes is the is the standard you know fuel capacity for safety and you need to have that additional 40 minutes on there and that's for precisely a situation like this or a diversion situation. I think in the past you know there's been many occasions when aircraft has literally run out of fuel I remember some years ago Mexicana 77 o 7 an older aircraft obviously fell out of the sky New York dealing with the weather and not not wanting to call in the fact that they were going out of fuel. These days it's triggered automatically So once you reach that limit there would be a series of alarms and Richard would know better than this on this that I will that will indicate that you need to call in not just the Pan Pan Pan which is a precautionary measure but but a mayday message and that way you know you're going to get down to the ground I don't think for a moment the passengers would be aware of what's going on I think it's just one of those highly unusual situations where a combination of factors weather I don't think aircraft type played it played a major part it's more to do with distance and weather and you run into a situation like this and that's always the situation when you're dealing with flights that are on the limit you know some of these flights now you look at Perth London you know 18 and a half 1000 hour flight when you're when you're heading north in winter you know it's going to be very interesting to see what happens with those flights in the future you know only so much fuel you can take on a situation on an aircraft like that again I don't know whether it's got an opinion on that but it's going to be quite interesting to see moving forward into this 1st one to fear it and Richard those long haul flights Qantas started the Perth to London service I think in the last March or March of last year relatively recently anyway do you get the sense Richard that perhaps fuel efficiency in the type of fuel that technology surrounding fuel is going to have to change because there is talk for example that in the not too distant future people will be able to travel from the east coast of Australia to London in one go so the whole issue of fuel will have to change once it Richard. This facility right I think technology plays a role and oh so the our ability to tool for costs in close unfolding kinds of weather and also in terms of air traffic is is going to improve for having said that because especially for those are 2 hour long haul operations it also means that you get a $4.00 cost core sample with a whole cost a lot earlier than for example you're flying just on $1.00 and a half hour from the need to go to Melbourne for example so what it means is that the full cost is going to be less Ackroyd especially dollar for long haul flights so Airlines and US pay a lot of tension to to calculating these fuels because it is about a flight safety and within a calculation there within the fuel policy that there is if you require some sort of safety margin all that already there in your policy so including contingency fee orders about 10 percent all of flying time that expected and also some extra fee or that allows you to fly to an alternate airport if you are really. Have to have that possibility of a diversion and then there comes that last reserve fuel that. Flight was burning so so calculation itself is challenging and I think most airlines it's almost a whole here Non's with a lot of attention to this issue and fuel is that they cost factor but I don't think A eyes were sick or flies in order to carry for example by carrying less fuel in order to save money because there's a lot of the at our safety hasn't your safety so yeah it is quite complex but again this event does this terrible event is a 3 quite rare. Very glad to hear that safety comes before money how long do you think it is Richard before we couldn't we can fly from say Brisbane or Sydney direct to London because on current aircraft that would be what 22 hours is that likely in the next 5 years or sooner. Year well that that that's the challenge in the curs for that follow a long distance I think that one of the longer the longest distance is probably forcing me to new single port to New York so that less very much about 1000 hours so technology sales is one thing because you we do need to have more fuel efficient aircraft in order to fund those fuel and then can go further in distance and also also to market is one thing because if you want to operate for such long haul long distance flights you do need to charge you more because basically your Syrian passengers time so so economic economical to speak and that that also is a major factor whether analyze all want to do that so for example Singapore Airline can Sautner the fly between Singapore and New York a couple of years ago simply because the market was not good enough to suss then they don't distance fright but now they are they restart it so it is about of a combination of of technology and also also the economic situation then airlines with determine whether they are going to thaw it in full on distance flies aircraft itself is very it's very critical. That Can I just come in that sounds a bit KOTOR and sure to doesn't it because if you're flying direct you're missing out on all these landing charges and you're missing out on the you know Crew overtime and all sorts of things. Well not not entirely the route flight is always more expensive than connected flights so one insists that at the moment if you're flying from say for Sydney to abundant you can come next and multiple ports either in Southeast Asia or in the Middle East and and if you want to fly at the right then you means that you are going to charge you maybe about usually about 2030 percent. More than comic in plights although you do say for example all of our lead in the in charge is in the middle so it is is is about an economics and this is how how you usually post office because if you want to save money you pay more for airfare there's usually added water. And fill that should make up of well and had to merge and say that that most people in Sydney have any idea that there was this thing going on in the air above their head. They may not have been familiar with the circumstances in the sky but they certainly would have been familiar with the traffic snarls around Sydney airport Chris you live in that neck of the woods it is it doesn't take much for Sydney traffic to grind to a halt you know this city is one of those airports that has major traffic congestion on a daily basis and it doesn't matter which direction you're coming in from all it takes is one snarl with. You know a shunt on the freeway. Or an emergency like this to create absolute you know you know pandemonium and that's exactly what happened so they have to close the roads around the airport emergency services so that puts put pushes everything back because of course from an operation perspective if you're an airline that has a departure at say 10 AM in the morning and you know that that airport's going to be shut down for a couple of hours then you have to put plans in print in the process that are going to deal with that and you know even those can be complicated a slight delay in the cost of a slight delay as I'm sure if you do the test you can cost you a fortune down the line with crewing hours with various other things that you need to you need to consider so yes so. It was a fairly dramatic morning. And if I'm really honest I don't think Sydney is the best airport that's prepared for that I think we have infrastructure problems here that that all add to the to the situation and Richard one last question few What sort of lessons do you think your airports like Sydney and others around the world can learn from these sorts of mayday calls that are triggered by that automatic dropping fuel. For airports they and also a traffic controllers they pray and important off and port and roll for such an emergency again this type of mayday call because of fuel is is not common but. Airports and air traffic controllers they have their procedures once a part of the created a mayday call then they make arrangements and then respond very quickly but Buddy definitely something that this is going to this would rot traffic in in and out of the airport and especially for that case was ample horse in need there was not the easiest time most international flights of arrive at Sydney you know early morning so it's brought a lot of traffic on that morning. Well Richard thank you very much for being our guest I think 95.9 percent of us are very pleased that we're not going to sit near poor right now is that. I know that's got crushed by. A minute or 2 to talk to us about some of the joys of the Sydney airport more generally speaking and will well look forward to doing that thank you both and back and as I say a couple of minutes time is just our top US to them digital online smartphones and tablets this is B.B.C. 5 Live on the news and I would much Mansfield the prime minister is appointed in England's 1st minister for suicide prevention trees in May says the new role taken by the Health Minister Jackie Doyle price will help tackle the stigma surrounding suicide forecasters in the US a hurrican Michael has strengthened into a category 3 storm as it heads towards Florida more than 120000 people have been ordered to leave their homes trees amaze been warned of dire consequences for the conservatives if she continues with her brags it plan the former minister David Davis says voters will know if the U.K. Ends up as a rule taken from Brussels the prime minister says the only alternative is leaving the E.U. Without a deal and highways England says a new road linking Kent in Essex with almost double capacity across the river Thames a 10 week public consultation on the designs has now opened James Buffett has the support England manager Phil Neville says the standard of refereeing has to improve after watching his side enjoy a several questionable decisions during the 11 draw against Australia Fran cabbie had put England ahead who then had a goal wrongly ruled out for offside and too strong penalty claims waved away the casein a key to Paris was was the key to Paris can't believe it just like the rest of us I don't think that's acceptable luck on that level. You know it if we lose games that my players play poorly busy when we get. Criticize something like this all the referees literally that hold their arms up and I say we had a ball that England's men meanwhile are busy preparing for their own friendly on Friday night behind closed doors match against Croatia a repeat of the World Cup semifinal manager Gareth Southgate has opted for a youthful looking squad which has 6 uncapped players and there's a 1st call up in 2 years for Ross Barkley who's putting the past behind him I accepted it you know what I've been difficult through injuries and you know I when able to show what I could add to the squad last season you know through through things before you know I'm behind the squad now and I'm not I'm looking forward to the future Northern Ireland manager Michael O'Neill says he's disappointed that Kyle Lafferty has ruled himself out of the nation's league games against Austria and Bosnia Herzegovina O'Neill said the rain just like it contacted him over the weekend to inform him of his surprise absence in boxing Billy Joe Saunders has been refused a license to defend his W B O middleweight title against Demetrius Andrade because on a burst drugs test the W B O is yet to comment but there is a chance Saunders could lose his title England's one day team relishing their favorites tag going into the 5 match O.D.I. Series against Sri Lanka That's according to just Butler Owen Morgan side are ranked number one in the world with Sri Lanka 8 just 7 months away from a World Cup on home soil the O.D.I. Series begins at 10 o'clock in the morning and down by being favorites I mean she's been doing something right. Work their way up to the top of the rankings I think the guys enjoy that pressure of of being the number one side and people wanting to . See going away and playing international cricket is a real tough challenge and and coming in favorite I don't think there's anything that my research in rugby union Wales have been dealt some bad news that looks like back road to pay Faletau will miss the autumn and. The Nationals after breaking his arm he suffered the injury playing for his club bath at the weekend and British show jumper Jack Whittaker has won a silver medal at the Youth Olympics and when I say Aries 34 years after his father Michael achieved the same fate at the Los Angeles Games that's the latest from B.B.C. Sports. B.B.C. Music introducing helping to make it in the music industry if you want to build a career with Sicko know someone who does the Caliphate introducing 3 days of mass a class is an industry expert and live performances it's all taking place in London it's tobacco dog and Lauren of the good Steve Tom Robinson Emily visit and other big names from across the music and radio industry will be for more information and tickets go to the B.B.C. Music introducing website across the U.K. This is B.B.C. 5 Live. With the rock show. That we rejoined and Sydney Hello Phil thanks very much broader So I introduced Chris earlier Chris is the founder of the World Tourism Association for culture and heritage and Chris is going to talk to us in the next 25 minutes or so about the fragile state of tourism and how international tourism is leaving in many areas quite a damaging footprint increases being in the tourism and aviation industry for quite a long time and it all stemmed from a drumming band is that right Well yeah actually. I'll go back a little bit so I grew up in. A place called within sure in the south of Manchester and I wouldn't Shaw was a council estate and still is a council estate that was built after the 2nd World War and they moved the people from North Manchester down to the south of Manchester near the airport environment due to the decimation of the blitz etc So when you're living in a council estate in the mid seventy's you don't actually expect to go overseas and abroad you know you look at go to North Wales or bottlings or something like that so I was amazed one time when I went back to school after the summer holidays I'd be about 14 years old and I was chatting to 2 friends and I said I want you to do you know would you go over some and they said are we told Austria and Switzerland and Germany what couldn't believe it and they said yeah we joined an Irish pipe band and we get to tour around Europe so I thought wow awesome at that so I don't you do that so they took me along and then I spent the next few months learning how to how to drum and how to carry a drum and a year later I was on an Alitalia jet flying to Rome which I'll never forget we arrived in Romilly evening and we got to drive through the center of Rome and I can still seeing in my mind's eye the the Coliseum was bathed in this orange light as the sun was going down and I remember thinking I believe I've seen this in magazines it was amazing and then we carried on and it went dark and we arrived in a place called La Quinta Now you may have heard of like with the before because of the decimation from the earthquakes couple of years ago and I was so excited I was a 15 year old kid in this amazing place the up and I mountains 2 nights later I'm on a bus that pulls up outside St Bernard he knows Basilica this is a building that was built and I think it's like 1450 or something like that had these big bronze doors on there forget it and I would go. The bus there were around 2000 people sat on the steps outside which goes down a hill it's almost like an empty theater and at the bottom of this crowd of people was the stage and we had to walk through these people and as we started to do in our green kilts and our carry our drums and our back pipes etc They all stood up and they cheered I never experienced anything like this I got up on the stage I was we were playing with 13 of the groups from around the world that particular night dance groups for pounds and what have you and and I remember making the conscious decision then that I was going to travel for the rest of my life I was going to go to as many countries as I could I was going to meet as many people and cultures that I could and that's exactly what I've done and I spent my whole life doing that . And that was really the catalyst I suppose to the creation of this organization and this organization is to protect the culture and heritage because you mention Rome and if you think of the list that is often published of places that have been tarnished if you like by too many tourists roamed abroad phonemic Reykjavik Venice Barcelona to name but a few what's the mission of the new organization how are you intending to help these places and other places avoid those sort of pitfalls one of the the mission of the organization is to protect cultural heritage through tourism in the past what's actually actually happened is tourism has grown organically and though in the areas that you mention they're the ones on T.V. The ones you don't see the ones that are not visible on the tourism radar are the ones that I'm concerned about these are the places that are now being squeezed that a bulging at the seams and the risk of the destruction of the of Their very culture and heritage of Israel. So so again what I surely happened is in 2012. I all going. The 1st ever Pacific Asia or indigenous tourism conference was held in Darwin sponsored by by Northern Territories and I worked with an Australian partner down here and we brought in people from around the world just like I was talking about with Italy that we did the same but we did it for a tourism perspective and we learnt from each other some of the issues and some of the. Potential opportunities that they were in growing the the tourism heritage sector from a tourism perspective because they have massive benefits if it's done if it's done well. One of the speakers that I got there was a gentleman by the name of Ben Sherman he actually sits on my advisory board now he is the head of the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota and he's a Sue engine and he's also the chairman of the world indigenous tourism alliance so what we did is my organization then is we handed this conference over to Ben and to winter the world indigenous for them alliance and that became their annual event or bi annual event so they hold it every 2 years recently held this year in the Bay of Islands in New Zealand. And this particular event does exactly what I was saying it starts to explore the issues and you know the opportunities the problems that we're actually finding. And it was partly because of that that I decided to start digging deeper into some of the problems of some of the issues that we're finding with the cultural heritage tourism. Scenario. And one of the things that happened over the last sort of 3 years 3 to 4 years I was asked more and more to speak at conferences around the world sit on panel discussions and it became blatantly obvious to me that nobody really understands. What's going on in this space so I thought I better start doing some serious research here and finding out what's going on so I look I started to look at Millennial. Travel trends and you know just as one demographic and when you look at the Asian millennial travelers it's quite interesting that the number 2 think by far they want to do and this is way above everything else. Is to become a cultural Explorer now that might sound great but the issue is we expect about a over 100000000 of these Asian millennial traveling over the next 10 years and if they want to work experience what they want to experience is a true authentic real cultural experience not going to put massive downward pressure on some of the fragile communities particularly Asia Pacific region so to get a bit deeper I started to look at the rest of the millennial demographics around the world and by far the number one thing they want to do is. Experience new cultures so from an industry perspective. There was nothing out there at all the peak bodies the United Nations will tourism organization you know Esko the Pacific Asia Tourism Association they are not equipped and it's not their mandate to look after nice environments like this. This is really down to a body who can literally focus on this to find solutions to stop preventing the issues that we have in Venice and Reykjavik and Dubrovnik and various others say these are the ones that are unknown. So I started to put together a team of specialists. Globally recognised for their expertise and what we've done now which we have created the world towards Morgan Association for culture and heritage and we're moving forward to work with destinations and industry to find solutions Chris rod here it's amazing you have you have you done a TED talk about this I mean this is this a got Ted talk all over it as far as I'm. I haven't actually wrote I've I've spoken . At many many events on this subject. And as I say this is this is something that is is almost invisible to the tourism industry it's not invisible to academia they know what's around the corner but it has it hasn't actually been recognised understood embraced by the industry in general interesting enough rod. I spoke about 3 weeks ago on a mountain in Tibet in Chinese Tibet in a place called gars It's a place called Holy Land it's the most spectacular place you've ever seen it's can plead Lee untouched at least that's how it's positioned. And we were talking about this very issue the Chinese government. Recognised tourism as being one of their 7 key pillars of economic development and they understood that they need they need to do it right so I've spoken on many occasions in China and they treasure particularly on the western side of China they are so rich in this amazing culture and credible heritage sites. That they want to make sure that they do it right and they protect it so I've been in I've been fortunate enough to speak and many events there so this 13 weeks ago was about 15 and a half 1000 feet up on a mountain I flew to the. To the highest airport in the world in a place called douching that's at 14800 feet and and it was really quite amazing but the thing that became very apparent whilst we were having this conference was it's already full they can't take any more tourists here. So what they're trying to do now is to find solutions to the probably already have and this is exactly what I'm saying the fact that these smaller destinations that the majority of people around the world have never heard of a breaking point these are these are the communities that are the most fragile these are the the the people in the cultures that we need to protect Now if we put the right checks and balances in place if we put the right codes of conduct the right standards and ethics in place we will prevent this we can prevent it but if the industry and governments ministries and local councils keep turning away from me keep running their lives on K P I's you know with a short window of opportunity of 12 months it's just going to spiral out of control so this is again why I think the organization that I have founded and begun is so important it's not going to be instant coffee or it's going to take some time for this to permeate and to start getting the support that we need but it's very important and I'll give you just one example before before I handled your treasure from what we when you look at rap a newly Easter Island yes their island is one of the most remote places on Earth we all know what it is we all see the. Statues. The mount the mall why statues there it's all been in our minds now they have a population of around 5800 people they receive over 100000 tourists annually. And the mayor. Payola. He's been there for quite some time the big issue he's dealing with right now is he he has to manage more than 20 tons of garbage every day which is produced by the visitors. So these are the issues that are not thought through these are the issues that are not discussed you know it's all well and good to promote a destination but if you don't have the infrastructure in place to deal with that if you don't have the conversations and the agreements and the understanding from the various different departments you know in government to manage all of this it's just going to get completely out of control and then when it gets too bad someone will quit and it becomes someone else's problem and I'm just to go to an example maybe from the other end of the scale how do you think they're doing much of peach because they've they've started limiting the number of people can go up there. And well this is what they have to do there's a thing that we would that we we use in tours and when I say we use it's hardly ever used we you can do a carrying capacity study you know the carrying capacity study will determine how many tourists you get or you can take before it breaks. And what it will do on the study is it will give you indicators on when you need to start to revise you know where you're going now this doesn't have to be big stuff does it have to be you know massive destinations this can be a small town but if you don't have enough coach bays if you don't have enough public toilets if you don't have enough you know areas for Pete you know restaurants and cafes and various different things like that you're going to run into trouble then of course you have reputational issues etc So carrying capacity study is should be the 1st thing that a destination does before it starts to you know expand on its current. Thresholds. But I can say almost universally it's never done because it's always perceived to be something that the the not necessary too complicated or somebody else's problem. It's basically complex a friend of mine came from Paris from Madrid and Barcelona last week and she said to me she said it wasn't like the last time I was in Paris really crowded said I didn't like it at all. There's nothing we can do is there I mean then in terms of destinations like Paris and London you just you just decide what time of year you're going to go and that's going to dictate pretty much how many of your fellow tourists you actually rub shoulders with it's true but you know we're in. A period where affordable travel is now. You know it's everywhere whether it's air travel or cruising or whatever and I was chatting earlier. You know the way we consume travel is different now the way we purchase travel is different now but we still have some archaic kind of ideas about this you know if I was to go down to a local store here and buy a $10.00 watch you know I'd know exactly what I was going to get if I was going to before going to buy a $10000.00 watch I would expect something a little bit different but today when it comes to travel people want to pay $10.00 but they want the $10000.00 experience and this is what's actually you know wrecking things right now and I'm not having I'm not pointing the finger at any particular industry or whatever. But you know some of the cruise ships it's all about volume it's all about profit. And it's and that's a recipe for disaster when we're talking about French all communities the likes of Venice and Paris and queuing up to go and see the Mona Lisa they're all going into the Sistine Chapel you know. They're kind of long gone though they're never going to be able to reverse that trend in many respects this volume this this desire growth at all cost is killing the goose that laid the golden egg it's killing me the one thing that people actually want to go and experience and you know from a cruise perspective you know you some of the ships now I carry more than 6000 passengers at a time who will want to get off at the same time so you getting these flash mobs of tourists arriving in destinations like Venice and Dubrovnik all getting off the of the ships at once people scrambling trying to make a few dollars out of them and what it does for the people who live and breathe that place to that is their homes that is there that is their communities you can understand why there was such an anti torah sentiment now that is rising to the surface more and more it's because it's out of control now we can either do 2 things we can either do something about it but the checks and balances in the organizations up until my organization actually. Don't Exist UNESCO. In my last position I used to be the director of the Pacific for an organization called part or I have 22 countries to to manage and I wrote that UNESCO did a study in 201516 on cultural tourism and I wrote to UNESCO in Paris and asked them for the outcomes the results of the study I wrote to the author I wrote 8 times to the author asking him for the results because they could have be they could be beneficial to the communities of the South Pacific. Never got a response now when you're talking bureaucracy and you're talking about agencies like this they are not good. To do what we're trying to do I have a board I have an amazing advisory team mixed from industry experts in marketing experts in in numbers and various different elements of tourism who kind of all into look so the skill base all interlocks you know I have a guy a professor Thomas Bower who's got an amazing career he did the sustainability tourism plan for Antarctic. And he was. The 1st ever told guide for for Antarctic for the Antarctic he's one of my team. So we have specialist knowledge contained within there that has the capacity to work with destinations to work with industry to find solutions and to find fixes of issues that are currently being right would be rising to the surface on a almost on a daily basis the other thing when I said earlier write about how we purchase travelers changed. We used to you know I might I would go down to a travel agency and pick up a brochure and maybe book all of it off you go these days you know we might see a program on the B.B.C. That might be on Africa or it might be on a cultural thing or whatever. And then we'll go and research that on Google and then we'll look at Trip Advisor then we'll look at you know being be eccentric So the whole idea of how we actually purchase travel has changed so each of these stakeholders also have a responsibility and an opportunity to contribute because in the case of the B.B.C. Some of the areas that I'm working in could be your next stories is amazing stories out there in the world that I live in and of course that could be your contribution to trying to find fixes and solutions to this issue just as endlessly interesting. One last question from me Chris not so long ago Byron Bay which is the most easterly part of mainland Australia the mayor up there said that the town during the summer was full and he wanted to have a cap on people I think it was once the number got past 30000 when we when we think of smaller communities here in Australia and elsewhere what can be done because you can't put roadblocks up but what can be done to protect a glorious seaside place like Byron Bay from becoming a car park. That's a simple question and it's always a complex question and simplicity should say there are many things that you can do the things you do you I have no issue putting caps on places in fact I'm all for it because we don't have a right as people to go to places we think we do in today's society and today's environment we think can go anywhere and do what the hell we like we can't travel and tourism is a privilege to step into someone else's yard into someone else's garden or someone else's town should be a privilege it's not a right and if you want to do that pay pay pay pay the fee for it so if you look at Hulu you know as rock and look what's happened there low rise limited amount of people that can can visit you pay. On entry all that money goes back to the preservation of the area it's a sacred site so you need to respect those wishes that's to some degree the same with any time any any town any community it's sacred to you so limit the numbers limit the amount of traffic. And find ways to do that is that through money through but you know by putting rates up and parking yes' and all the rest of it there are many different ways to do that but again each I can't I can't tell you what the solution is for Byron Bay We need to go go and have a look at it if you know what I mean but you look at the infrastructure you look at what's required and and you work when you work with local councils accordingly and you basically you bleed this out over time you don't just thrust it on people. Are places like Byron Bay suffering as a result because once upon a time it was a glorious sort of hippie hippie place and now it's and now it's not well the other thing about all of this of course is you know tourism and over tourism is one thing once you lose your reputation that's it you're finished you know going to get it back you know or it's going to take a hell of a long time a lot of investment a lot of planning to get that reputation back. The other issue is that people are more and more that they're not willing to face the problems that they've got and until we get to that point you know we're not going to fix it. Challenging challenging Chris thank you so much for being our guest of. My pleasure thank you. Chris cloned from the World Tourism Association of the culture and heritage and I guess even better has always like so much. For news and. For anyone else a B.B.C. 5 Live it's 3 o'clock B.B.C. News an hour with Claire Bailey and I'll tell the story may appoint a minister for suicide prevention and in sports Phil Neville calls the refereeing unacceptable as England draw with Australia. Is B.B.C. 5 my. Series a maze appointed what's thought to be.