i'm stephen sackur. getting to the top in showbusiness is hard, but staying there is much, much harder and few stars can match the sustained success in music, film and theatre of my guest today. petula clark was a much—loved child performer during the second world war. she went on to have a host of hits in the uk, france, the us and pretty much everywhere else. she has worked with legendary names from fred astaire to serge gainsbourg, and she is still singing and touring. so what makes her tick? petula clark, welcomed the hardtalk. thank you, stephen. i have to begin by talking about the voice because you do have one of those wonderfully distinctive, clear singing voices and ijust wonder when you reflect on the long career whether you really feel the voice is pretty much the same now as it ever was? pretty much. today i am a bit husky, i've got a cold — a good old english cold. no, my voice is perhaps a little bit stronger than it used to be and probably there's a bit more base in it than i used to have. do you think voices mature with age and with experience? of course, they do. eventually they start to... i'm not there yet. no, you're definitely not there yet. have you in your life any memory of a time when you were not a performer — a singer performer? not really. even when i was very, very young — i'm talking about five — well, i used to sing all the time. i was one of those musical kids and i lived inside my own head. there was always music going and i was always telling myself stories. very imaginative, i suppose. bit perculiar. that was in wales and it fitted in very well in wales because everybody is very musical in wales. has singing always brought you joy? yes, absolutely. the first time i sang in public was actually in chapel, in front of a congregation and i was about six. and i was absolutely hooked from that moment on. would you say then, reflecting back, because your story is extraordinary in that by the age of about nine you were actually singing to a very wide public through the radio — which was a fairly young medium then but you were a radio star as a child. it suggests you are quite precocious. i mean, were you shy in any way or not really? precocious — what does that mean exactly? ready to put yourself out there in front of an audience. i was not a showbiz kid and i'm not very showbiz now, actually. my father was very strict and he was sort of taking care of me and managing me, isuppose, in a way, and this was a different time. there was a great deal of discipline so, no, i was not the showbiz kid, i was not spoiled but i did like to sing. i was very shy and like a lot of performers they are shy until they get on stage and then something else happens. i would love for you to watch with me a little clip that we've lined up of you... oh, dear. yeah — you as a girl. this was captured by the pathe news. you became quite a thing, your singing voice was so lovely, so pure, the british forces fighting in the second world war really enjoyed it and you became a star very young. pathe news marked your stardom. let's have a look at the clip. archive: yes, petula clark is really like any other little girl, enjoying the same things as her friends enjoy but more than anything else she likes singing and the public loves petula, especially the soldiers whom she reminds of their own kids at home. # sweetest little fellow, everybody knows # don't know what to call him but he's # mighty like a rose! # lookin' at his mammy with eyes so shiny blue...# i have to ask you, what does it feel watching that now? it is sort of charming, in a way, it is almost like watching someone else, though. i do sort of remember those moments in front of that big bbc microphone. and amazingly, standing on the box because you were so tiny. i had to stand in a box. god, i was skinny, wasn't i? it's quite sweet but it was a very true little voice. very true. yeah. i do want to tease out a little bit the relationship with your father. you said he sort of organized you and was quite strict. today, in showbiz and indeed in top sports as well, there is this concept of the very pushy parent who really has grand ambitions for their child and will not let them rest until those ambitions are met. was he a bit like that? i suppose he was a bit but i absolutely adored him. for me, he could do no wrong and, it is true, he had always wanted to be an act to himself. he was a very handsome man. and he was never allowed to go into showbiz and so i think, through me, he was living out his fantasy. so yes, i suppose he was a bit pushy but i was a child and somebody had to push we forward. i suppose the complication is that he was both your father and he became your manager, effectively, and by your late teens and early 20s, when you were starring in movies and you were a major recording star in britain, it must have been quite difficult to see where the barriers were, the lines between dad and manager. yes, you are absolutely right, it did become difficult as i was growing older and wanted to make my own mistakes. it became difficult for us both because we would go home after working i would go home and i was not sure if i was having dinner with my dad or my manager. we were not always agreeing on everything and eventually we had to split and it was very hard for both of us. there was a gap where we did not see each other very much and i know that was hard for him and for me too but i think it had to be done. after that we were fine. we had to do that separation. interesting you talk about separation because one of the big decisions in your life was actually to go to live in france because you had become a big star in britain but you then, i mean, you met and eventually married a frenchman and you went to live in france and you have said that going to france, to paris and discovering edith piaf and a whole bunch of great artists in paris really change your life. i was wondering in what ways? my life was totally changed by going to france. i did not want to go and live in france, it was an accident but anyway that is another story. i found myself living in paris which at that time was very foreign indeed. i did not speak any french and then i was meeting all these amazing artists. the first time i saw piaf, it was amazing, i had never seen anything like that. when i saw her she was already quite a sick lady and she just about made it centrestage and i thought, this is not going to be very good. this is uncomfortable for me and then she started to sing and that is when i learnt about singing with your heart and soul and everything else. you know, she sang about love, death, hate, madness, sex, everything, you know, and i had never seen anything like that before. so it was really a learning experience for me, living in france — personally and professionally. in a sense it sound sas though it made you much more self—aware and ready to express your true self? yes and i was also married and had two children. the great thing for me, there was always this little pet image that i had in england because i had been a child star and it was very difficult for me to get past that. whereas in france, they knew nothing about that and they just liked me as i was. and that was amazing for me. pretty wonderful. i mean, in a sense, what you seem to be saying is that you were much more than able to express, i don't know, your sexuality, that depth of your soul. yes, absolutely. you worked with jacques brel, serge gainsbourg — these guys whe were known as deeply sorrowful and sexy. the heavies! laughter so i can imagine that by time you then launched yourself into america, you were a much more confident performer and artist. yes but then again america was very different to france and i was learning again in america because in america the americans know about pop music, it is their music, after all, it is where it came from. you can't cheat. the audiences are very knowledgeable and found myself having to learn to sing better over there. really? oh, yeah. so you deliberately changed the way you sang? i was more meticulous about singing. in france it was for about the lyrics and a more personal kind of charm whereas in america it is about really, really singing well. and you obviously by then could sing in french as well as english and you have this french experience behind you but you were actually in the mid—60s in the us part of that brit invasion. the beatles were making it big. other bands were cracking america and you came along and you had a massive number one hit quite quickly? yes, downtown was number one but then we went on to have many after that but downtown was the beginning of course. thank you for queueing up anothe clip we've got which is perhaps your best known song of all, downtown, which you performed just after it was released as a single in late ‘64. this is you in an american tvs studio in 1965, let's have a look. # maybe you know some little places to go to # where they never close downtown # just listen to the rhythm of a gentle bossa nova # you'll be dancing with him too before the night is over # happy again # the lights are much brighter there # you can forget all your troubles, forget all your cares # so go downtown, where all the lights are bright # downtown, waiting for you tonight downtown, you're gonna be alright now # downtown, downtown...# it is such a pleasure to watch. that song — i can bet you you could go to any city in the world and start humming that song and people would join in. it is a brilliant pop song. it is, it's a great song and of course i still sing it on stage and, you're right, everybody, as soon as they hear that introduction on the piano, we are off. tony hatch, who wrote it and gave it to you, did you just think as soon as you heard it, this is an extraordinary song? i loved it from the first moment i heard it. the first time i heard it he played it on the piano for me in my apartment in paris and we did not know it was going to sound like that. of course, when we went into the studio a couple of weeks later, and i heard that orchestra, it was so thrilling. tony's orchestrations were wonderful as well. it was notjust a song, it was me, the whole thing around it. the other thing that strikes me and i dare say might strike a lot of people watching, there was something wonderfully demure and innocent about the way you sang the song. there were no tricks and goodness, we are so used out the female stars sort of, how can i put it... taking their clothes off? that is part of it. the way people present pop music today is so very different. when you look at that now, did you feel, goodness, that was rather prim and proper or do you think that's wonderful because it allows you to focus on the song and the voice? the stones, the beatles, all of them and it was all a bit kind of rock ‘n‘ roll. i was sort of reassuring for the parents as well. this is a nice lady singing pop songs so, yes, i was sort of like the big sister, if you like. you had been in paris and seen what passion and sexiness can do to a song and yet, you still have that big sister thing going on. was it because it work for you or was it your temperament? that is just the way it came out. there was no agenda with me. if a song requires some kind of sexual something, then i will give it that. don't sleep in the subway is a far more sexy song. i don't know what i am trying to say here. but each song, when i sing a song, there is a kind of movie going on in my mind. it is different each time. another one which intrigues me, and is very much to do with the era we are talking about, mid—to—late—‘605, there was a lot going on across the world. in the united states there was the civil rights movement, there was social unrest in many cities. there was an extraordinary moment for you in a television studio with the black songwriter and singer harry belafonte. you were friends of his, you performed together on a tv show. and, as i understand it, you touched him, in a sympathetic, nice way, and you were singing together. and some of the advertisers on that particular tv show said, we want that cut, we don't want that particular... yes, the sponsor didn't want that. "i don't want my star touching the black man." i didn't know that. we, harry and i, we couldn't hear that. we were in the studio, and this was happening in the sponsor's box, up near the director's box. and then everything went crazy, you know. so i had no idea what had happened. but my husband, who was executive producer, and my lawyer, were there, and took me downstairs, to a place where this guy was watching the tapes, he was eating a sandwich, and my lawyer said, we want you to erase these takes, and this is the one we want to go out. and the guy said, i can't do that. and you wanted to keep the one where you and harry belafonte touched. that was the one we wanted to go out, because that was the real one. because that was the spirit of the soul of it. exactly, and the poor guy had to press the button and erase the takes. so you got your way. absolutely. in a sense, that leads me to wonder if you feel, as an artist, a duty sometimes to be political, or to make a statement, if you feel something in the culture around it is going wrong, or is out of kilter. where are you, in terms of being political? well, i don't get into politics, and protest songs, and all the rest of it. but that song you did with harry belafonte, it was a sort of anti—war song. yes, it was an anti—war song, and i had co—written it, and we both felt strongly about the subject. of course, i didn't realise where i was going with this, you know. it was right in the middle of the civil rights movement, and ifound myself in the middle of it, and it made headlines, and all the rest of it. but i had my pianist, my music director in the states, was black, and was with me for 12 years. our choreographer was black. ijust didn't get it. just makes me wonder, given that you sort of by accident ended up being involved in that sort of statement at that time... but i wasn't going to be pushed around. no, so here is the thing. i know that you are going to go back to the states later in the year, and sing, and we have seen so many different performers, artists, movie stars and others, feel that they have to sort of use whatever platform they have got to speak out, some of them very clearly angry and upset about some of donald trump's policies. meryl streep, et cetera. et cetera — would you do that? probably. yes, if i felt that strongly, and if i felt that it would be some use. but i'm not sure that it is of any use. that is the thing that bothers me about it. it can sometimes look as if you are trying to make yourself look good, and i don't want that. let me ask you about a different aspect of your long career, and that is, it is almost constant performing, touring, different countries, different cities, and in the middle of all of that, you have managed to raise a family. you've got kids, and you've got grandchildren as well. how tough has it been to fulfil yourself, both as an artist and performer, and as a mother? well, it hasn't been easy, i have to admit, and at the time when the children were young, i was right up there at the peak of my career. and, as you say, i was all over the place, and the children came with us a lot, and in fact it was quite a good education for them, because they saw a lot of the world. and i have had this guilt thing hanging over me for years, of not being the perfect mother, you know. but they — you know, we talk about it, i talk about it with my kids, and they say, come on, you know, it was fine, we're great. and they are great. they are great kids, they are great human beings. but the guilt was very real, was it? it is very difficult to do it all. i thought i was going to be superwoman, and have a career and a family, be a great wife, great mother. it ain't easy. but, as you say, you have got great kids, and you did have a great career. if you look back, would you have done anything differently? well, it was a compromise. it was a compromise from my family point of view, and my career point of view. i was never totally into my career or totally in my family. it is always a bit like this. now that you look at the music industry today, and you are still in it, both recording and touring, is it an industry where you would have thought, if your children or grandchildren had wanted to go into it, as they grow up, do you think it is a healthy business to be in? healthy? well, i never discourage them or encourage them to go into it, and they saw from a very early age what it was, what it is. you know, it is not... we hear a lot about the glamour, we don't hear about the hard work, the angst, the pressure. they saw it, and i guess they decided it wasn't for them. i guess what i said at the beginning is true. it is hard to make it in the music business. but it is even harder to stay at the top of the music business, year after year after year. you have done it. it is a bit like trying to go up the down escalator. to stay in one place you have to keep walking. yes. but you know, i have never really felt that, because i have always just done it for the pleasure. i have never had anyone behind me saying, you've got to do it this way, you've got to change, because this is the way it is now. it has always been very organic. ifailed, of course, from time to time, that i know. how do you mean, "failed"? well, you know, i haven't always got it right. you want to know how? i am intrigued. you know, i don't listen to my own records, but recently i had to, because they are putting out a compilation. i was in agony, because i really don't like that. and then i found myself being quite fascinated by it. i could hear myself going through different phases, trying different things, and really messing it up, i think. but, you know, i was trying. you know, i was watching your face as we were watching the clip earlier of downtown, and you had a smile on yourface, and i think it was bringing something back to you. and it is not like you don't watch clips like that, time and time again, because people always want to talk about particular songs, and moments like downtown, in the ‘60s. but do you ever get bored of reliving that, and singing that? because people want it done every time you perform. no, i never get bored of singing all those great tony hatch songs. i love them. i recently did a tour here in the uk, and it was a mixture of the great tony hatch songs, things from the shows, things from the movies that i have been in, and the new songs. and i enjoy singing the old ones as much as the new ones. and the audience actually enjoyed the new ones as much as the old ones, which is really gratifying. and you are determined to keep touring. i mean, it sounds as though there is no way you are going to stop. well, all the time i'm asked do it, and people come to hear me, sure. and i mean, i loved doing the uk tour. i had a great band, i was back in england, the weather was gorgeous in october, everything looked beautiful, and i was singing for two hours every night. what is better than that? well, the next tour in the uk, i would love to be there. be there. i would like that. for now, we have to end. thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you. monday turned out to be quite a day of weather across some parts of the british isles with a combination of wind and rain and hill snow through the northern parts. tuesday, a chilly start wherever you may be but there still will be some of that monday rain lingering, especially across the eastern side of both scotland and england because that weather front will make very, very slow progress through the day into the north sea and that keeps that chance of a little bit of rain still there across those eastern parts. where the skies clear further west, a really cold start with some ice around south—west scotland and northern ireland and some sheltered spots across the western side of both england and wales. here, the skies will have cleared for some overnight, giving rise to some sunshine first up across the south—west into wales but there are showers not very far away. further east, this is where we get into that murky zone all the way from central southern england through the midlands to northern england and southern parts of scotland and further east again, the rain old weather front. across western parts of scotland and western northern ireland initially, this is where we are going to see some pretty hefty showers, at times just merging together to give some longer spells of rain with the chance, i would have thought, of some hill snow yet again. through the course of the day, those showers getting going across parts of wales and the south—west with the odd rumble of thunder in the mix. improving conditions gradually getting into central southern england and maybe the north—west of england and south—western scotland and relatively speaking, compared to what is to come, those temperatures not too bad. nine or 10 degrees across western parts but in the east, around six degrees. as far ahead as wednesday, that weather front is still lurking. it is heading back towards the west, wouldn't you just know it, not the same intensity i suspect as of late and that will open the door eventually to some cold air which as we get on through thursday and into friday, absolutely wins out such that cold air comes to sit across the british isles in the latter part of the week with the mild air lurking out in the atlantic. this is the difference it makes to the temperatures. no longer eight, nine and ten. it is three, four, five and six for many of us with only the western fringes pushing towards seven or eight degrees. a lot of cloud around. fairly leaden skies and that cooling process continues apace into thursday, two, three, four, five or six degrees so that cold easterly wind with a lot of cloud and the odd snow flurry too. i'm rico hizon in singapore, the headlines: a furious president trump insists on the need to keep certain people out of america, but several top us businesses say it goes too far. a pr company which represents the football star david beckham has told the bbc hackers tried to blackmail it by threatening to leak his e—mails. i'm babita sharma in london. it's one of the most famous tourist sites in the world but are the millions of visitors to angor wat benefiting the locals? and one of the world's most famous artists, pop art legend david hockney, gets a retrospective in london. live from our studios in singapore and london.

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