Margaret atwood. One of the worlds best selling critically acclaimed authors, shes published more than 60 books, and has won the booker prize twice. Margaret atwood. The winner of the first booker prize of the 21st century, Margaret Atwood. Cheering and applause. Her stories often centre on oppression and brutality. Most famously, her 1985 novel, the handmaids tale, a dystopian vision of america, in which women are enslaved. Now an Emmy Award Winning television series. Theres an eye in your house. In this episode of this cultural life, the radio 4 programme, she reveals her formative influences and experiences. And how even in high school, her creativity was clear. I put on a Home Economics opera. It was about fabrics. Can you remember how it goes . Fabrics need a swim in the suds it makes them feeljust like new plink plink, plink plink. I want to make sure the mics are recording us. Margaret atwood, welcome to this cultural life. Thank you very much. Happy to be here. On this programme, i ask my guests to choose the most significant influences and experiences that have shaped their own creativity. And your first choice is your parents. Yes. Tell me about your parents. Well, first of all, they, um. Were very innovative and able to improvise. Because, of course, if you live in the woods and there arent any shops, you have to be. And they were both very outdoorsy. But they also allowed us to make messes in our rooms and didnt make us clean them up. By messes, i mean projects. Which always begin as messes. Just to set the scene, this is rural quebec. Because your father was an entomologist. He was studying. Oh, yes. He was a forest entomologist. And his research station spring, summer and fall, was up in the woods north, north, north, north, north of ottawa, up the ottawa river. And this would be in a house that he built himself because he was of a rural background and knew how to do all of that. And, um. Therefore, he had a lot of edged tools, which we used to play with as children. Edged tools . Yeah. Sharp edged tools . Yes. You know, and other things, like hammers. Things you could do yourself a serious injury with if you werent careful with them. And your mother was a scientist, as well . She was a dietician. So this would have been the � 30s and � 40s. So i think she was a dietician simply because it was a job you could get in the depression. She wasnt very interested in any of that, frankly. So, this was a really rural upbringing you had, for most of. . Rural makes us think of farms. Right. Were not talking farms. More remote than that . Were talking wolves. Actually, were more likely to be talking bears, cos you would be more likely to see a bear. Did you . Oh, yes. And you heard the wolves . Yes. What does that do for your creative imagination . Well, you just know theyre there. It gives you respect. And you dont send very small children out Into The Woods by themselves, because theyre bite sized. So you had to be on your guard. You had to be aware there was danger. . Respectful. You had to be respectful. Did that make you a tough kid . Er. Tough is relative. So tough in relation to that kind of thing, yes. Um. Tough in relation to. Well, for instance, what was frightening to me as a small child, flush toilets. Things went down them and never came back. You didnt know where they went so itjust depends what youre used to, doesnt it . And, er. What you take. What you take for granted. So cities are actually a lot less safe. Youre hit by a car at any moment. Um. So out in the woods, as long as youre respectful and always look behind to see where youve just been, then you wont get lost. I mean, my big fear would be a bear, but youre still your mother allowed you to be messy at home, creating projects, so, what were you making . You were a practical child . Usually i was either constructing something out of materials such as papier mache, or i was painting. Hmm. Or i was sewing, one or the other. Sewing is not so messy. The papier mache is quite messy. So, craft work, then . Oh, we didnt call it that, dear. Thats a new fangled term. Did you call it anything, or was itjust the stuff. . Making stuff. Yeah. And we had the full. The full run of the tool set, you know. That was very handy. A few years later, when you self published your first book. Yes. A book of poetry, double persephone, um. A very limited run, and i think you made. Your hand printed and set. Typeset. Yeah. It was a flat bed press, so you had to set each page. And the fonts were a bit limited, and we had to, um. Set the poem, run it through and then disassemble it and do the next one. And i did the cover with a lino block print. Mmm. Do you have one of these books . Yes, but i should have kept more. Thats a real serious Margaret Atwood rarity now, isnt it . Your next choice for this cultural life is your brothers novels, which he wrote between the ages of seven and nine, you told us. So. So what were these stories . He was very prolific. Yeah. He even had, in the inside of one of the covers, by the same author, and then he put the other books he had written. Oh, yes, they were adventure stories, and illustrated. And at the beginning, they all concerned his imaginary world, which was at war constantly, because, of course, it was the war. Hmm. And, um. We traded our coloured pencils. He traded me the pink, the silver and the gold, useful for princesses, and i traded him the red, the orange and the yellow, useful for explosions. Hmm. There were a lot of explosions in his books. Hmm. So, these were. His books with his name on them. Oh, yes. Were you contributing, as well . Were you a co author . No, i was not a co author. Id made some rather wimpy, er. Kind of not nearly as violent and kind of smiley books of my own. Really . I was almost three years younger, so theyre much more rudimentary. It doesnt sound like you at all. Well, you know, i became. I matured as an author. So, i did write my first full novel at about seven, and it was about an ant. You were seven then. About, yes. And did you at some point at school, when youre looking forward in life and thinking, you know, im going to have to, at some point, be a grown up and have a job, at what point. . Oh, that comes much later. I dont think youre thinking in that way at all when youre seven. No. When i entered what we would call high school, they gave you a book called guidance. We had it in class, called guidance, which was supposed to be guiding us to our future, um. Careers. Hmm. So there were lots of future careers for boys. So doctors, lawyers, you know, Rocket Scientists and what have you. And there were five for girls. Lets see if you can guess what they were. Secretary . Yes. Nurse . Yes. Teacher . Yes. Got it. Ok, thats three. Thats three. Er. | dont know, was it housewife . Did that count . Thats not a career. That was considered a career. Er. Yes, but domestic science. 0k. Otherwise known as Home Economics. Home economics. Right. And the fifth one, which is a bit surprising that early, it was. It was airline stewardess. Oh, right, of course. So, which box did were you ticking at that age . Well, i was a mercenary little child. The one that made the most money at that time was. Was the home economist. Ah, right. So although i was not really very interested, um. I took that in high school instead of what i should have taken, which was secretarial sciences. I should have taken typing. What was the result . I still cannot touch type. I have to look. Are you. Are you two fingers . Four. Was there. Was there a moment, though, where you suddenly thought, actually, i need to write . Oh, yes. That would be when i was 16. Er. Yes, i started writing at that time more than i had been. We had to write a certain amount in school anyway. We had to write essays. Mm. And in those days, we had to read quite long novels in school. So thomas hardy was a feature. We had a shakespeare play a year, and, um. That was of great use in later life. But particularly, we had a Dramatic Group that would come to the School Called the earl grey players. And they would put on plays that were in the curriculum. You were doing a bit of acting as well, then . Oh, i was doing some acting, because it was the age of skits. People did a lot of skits. So what i eventually did with Home Economics was i put on a Home Economics opera. What . how does that play out. . Well, it played out like this. The well meaning, but rather humourless, um. Home economics teacher made the mistake of letting us vote on a special project. Hmm. This is the downside of democracy. So we could vote on it. And she wanted us to vote on making stuffed animals for Sick Children in hospitals. A very worthy project, but i felt, why not just buy them . I knew about those curved seams. I wanted to have nothing to do with them. Er. We� d already done smocking, that was enough of that. So i subverted part of the class and got them to vote on the Home Economics opera. She was a little bit dismayed by that, but because it was a vote, she said, yes, we could do it, as long as it was on a Home Economics subject. So it was. It was about fabrics. Orlon, nylon and dacron were their names. Who was writing the songs . Er. Me. I used pre existing melodies so people would actually be able to sing them. Operatic melodies or pop songs . No, dear, just any old melodies i could get my hands on. One of them was a. Oh, a mangling of the barcarolle from tales of hoffmann. Hmm. It was about washing. Right. Can you remember how it goes . Fabrics need a swim in the suds it makes them feeljust like new plink plink, plink plink. It goes on from there. So, did you perform, as well . Yes, of course. Yeah . You were. . Yes, i played orlon. 0k. Yes, i performed, i directed. Hmm. Your next choice for this cultural life is reading sci fi in the cellar when you were supposed to be doing your homework. And especially reading george orwell. When did you first come across orwell, then . Well, my dad liked Science Fiction because he was a scientist and he used to get a big kick out of it. Hmm. So he had quite a collection. But i first read animal farm cos it was in the house, my dad had it. Hmm. And i thought it was going to be, oh, good, animals just like wind in the willows. Talking animals . Talking animals. What fun er. But this is not what it was. And of course, i didnt understand that it was an allegory of the soviet union at that time, based on the show trials and so forth. Um. Because you were, what nine, ten. . Yeah. I had no knowledge of those things. So itjust ruined me, because here were these nice animals and they. And they came to tragic ends. And it was very, very upsetting. When it came to 1984, then, what was it about that book that gripped you so much . Having been born in 1939, two months after the onset of world war ii, ive always been pretty interested in dictatorships. And also, world war ii. Mm. Er. So by the time i got round to being plunged into history, which would be in the � 50s, i had a context for. For all of this. Er. And one of my. One of the things that has occupied me really quite a lot over time is, how did these dictatorships get going, and how did they maintain themselves . And also, how do they fall apart when they fall apart . So ive been pretty interested in that, really, for a long time. How important was it to you at the time, reading 1984 . I mean, i presume. Oh, it made a huge impact. Huge . Yes. And i. And i thought of it, um. My first reaction to it was the one that everybody has this is a really gloomy book and its very pessimistic. But, um. Thinking about it later, i realised that hed put this coda at the end. And its a very hopeful thing, because its a. An essay on newspeak, Written In Standard English in the past tense. Hmm. So the message is, it ended. It fell. The regime. It was gone in some way. Were not told how, but we know its gone because here are people writing about it as if its in the past. And the same thing happens at the end of the handmaids tale. Yes. Now, that. When the reader realises. Yes. That the narrative that has played out is being discussed at a symposium sometime in the future. So you come to the same conclusion, that the regime. Well, i. Has fallen. I mean, thats my model. And thats how you deal with, um. Knowledge that you cant put in the main narrative. The handmaids tale became, in effect, your generations 1984. Well, maybe, sort of. But, you know, at the time, it wasnt considered very plausible. Hmm. By many. So, in 1985, it was not seen as a real possibility. Thats interesting you wrote it in 1984. Idid. Isnt that corny . Not only that, i was writing it in west berlin, surrounded by the wall. Living in west berlin, you were, i presume, very aware of what was happening on the other side of that wall. Yes. Yes, they made sonic booms every sundayjust to remind us that they were there. And you were writing the handmaids tale in berlin at that time and that atmosphere, that that sense of difference was then feeding into the words that you were writing . Yeah. More, more through actually visiting those places. So, we went to, um, east germany that was easy for us, we were canadians. Then there was czechoslovakia. Fairly tightly sewed up but you can talk to people as long as you went into a field. And then, there was poland, which was already pretty loosey goosey. So, those experiences of talking to people who had to be very careful about what they said, and you had to be very careful about what you repeated. It was veryjohn le carre. Er, the whole thing, very familiar. So, thats creating an atmosphere, i presume, in the narrative . Yes. That sense of a repressive society. And you have orwell, who has kind of led the way and hes there in your imagination, as well, i presume. But what was the start what was the catalyst for writing the handmaids tale . The election of Ronald Reagan in 1980. Reagan with gods help, we can and will resolve the problems which now confront us. And, after all, why shouldnt we believe that . We are americans. Applause god bless you, and thank you. At which there was a big pushback against what the � 70s had been doing, particularly in the expansion of of womens rights. So, � 70s quite expansionist. You could have your own credit card. Chuckles stuff like that. And then, you get this pushback, and that was when they started activating the evangelical religious right as a political force. Significant also is the fact that i had studied 17th Century American Puritanism as a Graduate Student in the early � 60s, and i get to say bad things about those people because they are my ancestors. So, the family. Literally. Literally, yes, literally, they were puritan new englanders. But its interesting that you witness whats happening in germany, Ronald Reagan is elected, so you start imagining the Possibilities Of A Future Totalitarian American regime but then, you reach back. Well, these regimes are never made out of whole cloth. Theyre always based on something that was there before. They change the outfits, the names, the flags and the slogans, but its its the same, um, infrastructure. So, what would the americans have . Theyd go back to the puritans. Thats my that is certainly my theory. It was my theory in the 19805 and you can see it in action 110w. Thats what they want. Its what the right wing wants. It wants a hierarchical puritan theocracy. Which is why the handmaids tale has taken on new resonance and relevance in recent years, but also. I didnt do it. Chuckles but it has also, of course, taken on new life in the form of a television series, so a whole new generation of viewers now. What was the biggest challenge for you in seeing that adapted for the screen . Ok, you think i have any control or power, dont you . Chuckles maybe a bit. No, i dont. I have maybe some influence. Yeah. So, heres the actual story of what really happened. We made a film in 1989. Today, only one out of 100 women can still bear children. And some women stopped. Believing there would be no future, they refused. Refused to bear children they wouldnt even try they were lazy women and we we were launching it right at the moment when the berlin wall was coming down. Newsreel the moment berliners have waited 28 years for. Chanting cheering a symbolic breach in the structure that separated millions and claimed hundreds of lives. So, we had launched it in west berlin and it was the usual aesthetic conversation afterwards the direction, the sets, the acting and so forth. Then, we went across and showed it in east berlin, which was the first time any such thing had happened since world war ii, and the audience there was very different. Watched it very intently. Said, this was our life, meaning you couldnt trust anybody and people are constantly ratting each other out. So that contract for that film contained a Series Television, um, arrangement. And in those days, Series Television was dallas, or it was daytime soap. And the thought that anybody in that period would make a Television Show out of the handmaids tale, the thought was was, possibility, zero. Thats never going to happen. The film was sold to a distributor, the distributor eventually went belly up, assets were dispersed, the contract disappeared. So, people came for a year saying, can we make something out of the handmaids tale again . And we would have to say, we dont know whos got the contract. We really didnt. Wow then, somebody opened a drawer at mgm and there was the contract. Just when Series Television streaming started up, which is a perfect way of doing a longer novel. And that led to an led to an appetite for. That led to. Serious, gritty drama. . That led to the possibility of this happening. Blessed be the fruit. May the lord open. And the showrunner was a guy called bruce miller who had read this in high school and he promised himself that when he grew up, he was going to make the handmaids tale. So, he knew everything about it and talked himself into thejob. Are you surprised, or maybe disturbed, at the continuing relevance 40 years after you wrote that book . Well, it had periods of not being so relevant. So, its newly relevant because of political changes in the united states. We go everywhere in twos. Supposed to be for our protection, for companionship. There are no friends here. Cant be. The truth is were watching each other. In terms of your life and your influence and what youve been discussing tonight, almost at odds with some of the themes of the novels, which explore, you know, the really dark aspects of humanity and the Human Experience totalitarianism, rape and murder and all of these things. What what compels you to immerse yourself . I dont particularly immerse myself, you know, ijust read the newspapers. Blame it on the bbc news. Laughs ijust like to read. Well, i do research the details because if you dont and you get them wrong, you are going to get a letter beginning, you idiot. And nowadays, it wouldnt be a letter, it would be somebody yelling at you on social media. Theres never been one persons truth in a Margaret Atwood novel, whether its the blind assassin or alias grace or the handmaids tale. And your narrators, your protagonists are rarely what they seem at first. That instinct to almost pull the rug underneath the readers expectations, where does that come from, do you think . Well, ithink it comes from writing. It comes from writing novels. So or it comes from storytelling. So, you dont want the first five pages of your book to give away the entire plot, do you . I dont, particularly if its a murder mystery. I dont want to think, oh, well, i know who did that. Its very obvious. So, hook me in. Present me with a mystery. Make me want to know more. And thats a good beginning of a book. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. Oh, tell me more in what way . The past is another country. They do things differently there. How differently . It was a bright, cold day in april and the clocks were striking 13. Which brings us back to george orwell. Yes, it does. More than well, its around six decades since you first read him but in your most recent collection of short stories, you summon him up from beyond the grave. You have an imagined conversation via a medium talking and it is, we presume, Margaret Atwood in conversation. Yes. Its called Margaret Atwood. The character is called Margaret Atwood. Yes, yes. Yes. Chuckles an imagined conversation, of course. Dead giveaway. Hes still hes still very important to you . Yes, and im allowing him to smoke in the afterlife because im a kind person. Youre now in your 805, margaret, and youre still as prolific as ever. What what drives you on creatively . Well, what else am i going to do all day . You know what Samuel Beckett said . Why do you write . He said, not good for anything else. Chuckles its too late for me to be a ballet dancer. Oh, alas, a vanished career. Well, im a freelancer, you know . And thats a good thing because i dont have a boss. You are your own boss. Continue to be. Very enviable. Margaret atwood, thank you so much for sharing your cultural life with us. Thank you. Voiceover and for podcast episodes of this cultural life, | go to bbc sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. There were some parts of the casing some saturday sunshine. But, this was the typical picture for many of us. Lancashire seeing cloud, outbreaks of rain. You can see a lot of cloud on the earlier Satellite Picture and this Weather System continues to journey eastwards overnight. So, some further very wet weather for some overnight. So, some further very wet weatherfor some time overnight. So, some further very wet weather for some time across parts of Northern Ireland, southern scotland, merry areas of england and wales. To the north of scotland, we will hold onto some clear sky, one or two showers. A little bit chilly once again overnight. Further south, a mild night in prospect. We start sunday morning with this area of low pressure still very much in charge and along the line of this Weather Front here. That is where we are going to have the heaviest and most persistent rain. Either side of that, more on the way of sunshine, albeit with a scattering of showers but very wet indeed across parts of southern scotland, northern england, north wales, we could see some issues with localised flooding here. Some of that rain into some parts of Northern Ireland as well. To the north of that, we will see some sunny spells, scattered showers and to the south of that, sunny spells and scattered showers. The Odd Thundery One and the windiest weather on sunday is likely to be found around the coast of south east england. Temperatures, 23 degrees in london, 16 for aberdeen. Feeling particularly cool when youre stuck and rain for the part of the day. That band of rain will sink southwards as we move out of sunday and into monday, this area of low pressure swing away, on the back edge of it though. We get into a decidedly call with northern winter. Bantering to push southwards across parts of england and south wales during monday behind that, sunny spells and scattered showers. More widespread showers into northern scotland. Temperatures, at best 14 to 20 degrees or so below average for this point injuly. High pressure tries to build briefly so some drier weather, still with some showers, on tuesday. Forthe some drier weather, still with some showers, on tuesday. For the middle of the week, here comes our next rain bearing Weather System, another area of low pressure. A set of fronts. Outbreaks moving eastwards in wednesday and into thursday. An unsettled and rather cool week ahead. Live from london. This is bbc news. Greece sees its hottestjuly weekend in 50 years as firefighters continue of temperature related climate records is � unprecedented. Russian officials in occupied crimea say a Ukrainian Drone has hit an Ammunition Depot on the peninsula. 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