experientially. the problem is we don't understand the developing brain. the developing brain doesn't understand always how to make logical choices and fully comprehend the consequences. as a result, when you arrest these kids or expel them, you're marginalizing them in with a kind of criminal population or giving them a criminal identity. now, this is a big time of identity formation, which means if you tell a kid they're bad, likely they're going to be more bad in the future. so i think it's really important that we give kids a second chance, that we help them understand and give them more logical consequences than you're a criminal, you're out of this school. >> the three of you don't go anywhere. the discussion is far from over. next we'll look at how to change the norms in u.s. schools one student at a time, on the other side.