Transcripts For CSPAN Sen. 20240704

Munich security conference last year where the ambassador made quite a remarkable effort to try and to broaden out the conversation beyond the usual transatlantic crowd to the socalled global south. I think actually this year that effort has been deepened and widened even further. However, it is fairly clear that our world is on the one hand more connected, but on the other hand, evermore divided. And this is happening against the backdrop of the war in ukraine and the war in the middle east, which in many respects has divided us deeper. And harder to reconcile. Joining me for this wonderful discussion for the final day at the Munich Security Conference, please welcome ricardo lange, the cochairman woman of alliance 90. [applause] david lang, shadow secretary of state of the foreign, and a Development Office of the united kingdom. J. D. Vance, senator from ohio of the United States of america. Priyanka, deputy leader of the party in parliament of india. [applause] ricardo, let me start with you. There has been a lot of talk lately in europe about the risk of a right wing waves sweeping across europe and in many respects, the expectation of this has already had a number of implications. For instance, issues which i guess are very dear to your heart light Climate Policy, but looking beyond and looking at Foreign Policy specifically, i am just wondering if you could reflect a little bit about what those implications might be for Foreign Policy questions broadly, but specifically for the united for that European Union stance as far as ukraine is concerned. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. I was born in 1994, so i am a child of the 1990s and was very much born with the notion of the end of history after the fall of the berlin wall the time of systematic competition is over. Now we are standing not in front of the question of how democracy is spreading worldwide, but can democracy prevail internally when it comes to rightwing extremists but also externally in a world that is so much more reliant on cooperation when we talk about climate change, migration and other issues, but on the other hand as we drift farther apart cooperation has become more difficult. So i think for us as europe this is the question, how can we strengthen our democracy and prevail . Economically we need to have more geo economic stance in this eu and to be able to compete with china or the u. S. With inflation reduction act. This means internally we need to come closer together. Were going to talk a little bit about it later, are we able to have a common Foreign Policy for example in the europe, are we able to for better ties when it comes to defense . And security wise. I think security wise the question of how we support ukraine and whether russia will win the war or not is of the utmost importance because we know that if putin wins the war against ukraine, he and other countries like china will learn it is possible for them to just change borders. I think this would mean for the world less security, less freedom, so the question of democracy prevail is decided with the support of ukraine. Thank you. David, let me move on to you. There has not been a lot of good news lately. Understatement. But it has to be said that they european u. K. Relationship actually has been a relatively bright spot. And it is very clear that looking ahead to your election towards the end of the year, that relationship might actually improve even further. If on one hand you have a bilateral dynamic between the eu and u. K. Which is going to be propelled further by domestic dynamics within your country, on the other hand we look at the looming risk of troubled waters across the atlantic. Could you perhaps say a little bit about how you foresee the euu. K. Relationship developing, particularly in the security space . Of course i am hoping that there is a general election this year and i have the privilege of becoming the u. K. Foreign secretary, because it is absolutely fundamental that the u. K. And europe have the closest of relationships. The brexit era is over, the situation is settled. What my party is proposing is a new u. K. Eu security pact. And it is a packed that is effectively built on the fact that we obviously have war here in europe, but the truth is, and it is important that we summon up to the room the courage of alexi navalny, it reminds us that notwithstanding that war, russia will continue to be a threat to europe for months, years, perhaps a generation more. And that means that the defense capability of the u. K. Alongside our partners in france particularly representing about 50 of europes defense capability, but also the intelligence capability of the system in partnership with the United States, australia, new zealand, canada, is absolutely central as it is why we need now a new security pact. That fact is not to rival nato, it is to run in parallel with nato, understanding that what we have seen from this crisis is that Energy Security is important for us to continue working on. Is that sanctions and bearing down on kleptocracy and the way in which misinformation and disinformation is being used in our democracies is important to bear down on. Security and migration is important to Work Together on. And of course Climate Policy going forward. That is why we say we now need a u. K. Eu security pact. And the way i think to see this next period, it came to me last night at an event with mike pompeo, Standing Shoulder to shoulder with the ukrainian people, is that the threat to democracy at this point in time, why we must stand together, comes down to one word. Borders. It is a border that has been breached by russia. It is our borders that are challenged by the problems in the horn of africa and climate as people migrate and move to better places. It is a border that is challenged between israel and gaza. And actually when you look at the problems in passing the package of support to ukraine, it is the border with the United States and mexico and the huge tremendous problems of fentanyl flooding into United States that is holding up that package. We must protect our borders and to do that, we have to stand together. David, can i press you on this point . You make it a very important point which is essentially even in that hypothetical highly desirable scenario in which ukraine liberates all its territory, europe will continue to be in confrontation with russia given the situation internally within russia. Hence, we have to prepare for a long not just a long war in ukraine, but a potentially long war in the much broader sense of the term. Of course there are all the elements you described, there is the hard defense angle which is massively important in that kind of scenario. Can you say more about how you foresee that security pack actually playing out, in what ways for instance would it move forward in terms of encouraging not only greater defense spending but particularly spending together because as we know it set segmentation in that space that has been at the heart of many of the problems weve been facing. Procurement remains a significant challenge, we should not be replicating in one country what another country could do. Clearly our industrial capacity needs work. There is industrial capacity currently in the u. K. For Companies Working there, again that will have to be a shared endeavor, and some of that of course will always continue to be transatlantic working with our american partners. There are in fact significant areas where we could Work Together, and going forward, just as we came together to determine the rules that should govern our global system after the second world war, we think about ai, when we think about quantum, again, that takes a shared endeavor. Sometimes europe can feel rather sluggish and bureaucratic, we will have to do that at speed, the urgency of war in europe reminds us of that fact. As you will have gathered, the prospect of a Second Trump Administration raises quite a bit of anxiety in england, and as particularly as far as many of the things weve been touching so far and maybe russias invasion of ukraine, truth be said, the first Trump Administration did actually see greater commitment toward ukraine tornado. Could you perhaps tell us how you would imagine your party where it to form the next government in the United States, how would it look in European Security, would there be a withdrawal from nato . Would there be a pullout in abandonment of ukraine . And our european peers justified . First, thanks for letting me go second to last because its good to be with you. I cant speak for donald trump, i can speak for myself but i cannot speak for the former and likely president of the United States. First of all, please remember despite a lot of the , handwringing, and ive heard a lot of it in private meetings and public meetings, donald trump was maybe the best president at deterring russia in a generation. In fact, the only time that russia has not invaded a foreign country over the last 20 years was the four years that donald trump was president. And its interesting that so many people accuse trump, or me, or others of being in putins pocket, and yet the person that Vladimir Putin says he wants to be the next president is not donald trump he says joe biden is his preferred candidate because hes more predictable. Now, on the question of European Security, i think theres a fundamental issue here that europe really has to wake up to. And i offer this in the spirit of friendship, not in the spirit of criticism, because, no, i dont think that we should pull out of nato, and no, i dont think that we should abandon europe. But yes, i think that we should pivot. The United States has to focus more on east asia. That is going to be the future of american Foreign Policy for the next 40 years, and europe has to wake up to that fact. Now, let me just throw a couple of facts out there. Number one, the problem in ukraine from the perspective of the United States of america, and i represent, i believe, the majority of American Public opinion, even though i dont represent the majority of opinion of senators who come to munich, is that theres no clear endpoint, and fundamentally the limiting factors for american support of ukraine, its not money, its munitions. America, and this is true, by the way, of europe too, we dont make enough munitions to support a war in eastern europe, a war in the middle east, and potentially a contingency in east asia. So the United States is fundamentally limited. Now, let me just throw very specific details. The pac3, which is a patriot interceptor, ukraine uses in a month what the United States makes in a year. The Patriot Missile system is on a five year back order, 155 millimeter artillery shells on more than a five year back order, were talking in the United States about ramping up our production of artillery to 100,000 a month by the end of 2025. The russians make close to 500,000 a month right now at this very minute. So the problem here visavis ukraine is america doesnt make enough weapons, europe doesnt make enough weapons, and that you reality is far more important than american political will or how much money we print and then send to europe. And the final point that ill make just to respond here, because i know people have heard what trump said, and you know, theyve criticized it and theyve said, well, trump is going to abandon europe. I dont think thats true at all. I think trump is actually issuing a wake up call to say that europe has to take a bigger role in its own security. Germany just this year will spend more than 2 of gdp. That, of course, is something that we had to really push for in the United States, and it just now has finally cleared that threshold. But its not just about money spent. How many mechanized brigades could germany field tomorrow . Maybe one. The problem with europe is that it doesnt provide enough of a deterrence on its own because it hasnt taken the initiative in its own security. I think that the American Security blanket has allowed European Security to atrophy. And again, the point is not we want to abandon europe. The point is we need to focus as a country on east asia, and we need our european allies to step up in europe. I appreciate what my english friend over here said. And of course, england has been one of the few exceptions where i think it has fielded a very Capable Military over the last generation. But that hasnt been true for a lot of europe, and that has to change. I think in a crowd like this, i think it is also correct to point out that when trump was in office, the war in ukraine had already started, back in 2014, however here we are in the midst of that largescale invasion and yes, we have to do more, we have to accelerate that pace of doing more, but if the United States were to fall out, or to drop the ball on ukraine in a year from now, we probably wouldnt it takes time to do things right, and there would be a very serious risk, in fact a very serious threat that russia would take over ukraine. First of all its very hard, the juxtaposition between the idea that putin poses an existential threat to europe, compared again against the fact that were trying to convince our allies to spend 2 of gdp. Those ideas are very much in tension. I do not think that Vladimir Putin is an existential threat to europe and to the extent that he is, again, that suggests that europe has to take a more aggressive role in its own security. Thats number one. But again, i go back to this question about abandoning ukraine. If the package thats running through the congress right now, 61 billion of supplemental aid to ukraine, goes through, i have to be honest to you, that is not going to fundamentally change the reality on the battlefield. The amount of munitions that we can send to ukraine right now is very limited. Again, not by american willpower or by american money, but by American Manufacturing capacity. All of those back orders that i just highlighted, those are not problems in the future. Those are problems today, and they provide real limitations. So all im saying is in that world of real limitations, what is realistic to accomplish in ukraine . Can we send the level of weaponry weve set for the last 18 months for the next 18 months . We simply cannot. No matter how many checks the us congress writes, we are limited there. Munitions matter a lot in warfare. What we havent talked about, of course, is manpower matters a lot in warfare, and we know the ukrainians are very limited on that. So our argument, at least my argument here is, given the realities that we face, the very real constraints in munitions and manpower, what is reasonable to accomplish and when do we actually think were going to accomplish it . And my argument is, look, i think whats reasonable to accomplish is some negotiated peace. I think russia has incentive to come to the table right now. I think ukraine, europe, and the United States have incentive to come to the table. That is going to happen. This will end in a negotiated peace. The question is when it ends in a negotiated peace and what that looks like. I would very much its not just machinations, its but listening to the words of trump, and when we look specifically at the issue of ukraine, yes, as you said, we dont know how or when this war will end. Why do you always ask us when the more inns and not while russia is still Strong Enough . Putin has shown over and over again, and you showed with the murder of navalny on friday, that he does not want peace. Youre not having some scenario where this leads to peace. You are prolonging the war and putin wins. If putin is going to win this war, other forces like china are going to learn it is possible for them to and nato is not going to hold it against us. Trump, you said you cant speak for him, but in a world where nato is weakened and dictators like putin learn those things, we know it is a world with less security and it is world with less freedom and also for the u. S. You talk about your it needs to step up the game. That is true, there are times in the past that europe has not done the hard work. Now germany is spending 2 on defense and i think everybody in germany knows it in the future will we will be able to spend 2 and more. Secondly, there is a huge difference if you are in a partnership to tell your partner, step up your game because we want to be stronger together, or to tell putin, this is what trump told us. He wants to say depp up your game, but he wont say i think this is really an attack on nato, and we need to step up our game, but a stronger eu means a stronger nato. [applause] this was really supposed to be a conversation about europe and its partners, and here we are again in our little transatlantic bubble arguing. Let me turn to you, in a sense listening to all this, it is clear that our world is indeed more divided. It is clear that there are various powers, whether its a multipolar world, it is very messy indeed. A player that tries to put multilateral cooperation at the center, defined as multiplechoice. If you could react, on one hand, in this ever more divided world, how is india imagining itself that they got to the gate . It still brings the perspective back, 85 of the population of the world is based in the socalled global south. 39 of the global gdp, i think multiplechoice options and multiple factors as far as relationships are concerned is a good choice to have. To be able to be there and build bridges rather than burning bridges i think is a good message that india is sending globally. Having said that, india is placed in the global south in a situation where faces its own challenges. Its eastern borders, western borders both have two powerful enemies which continue to create trouble, create security challenges for us. Our food security, our Energy Security needs are something that every government, whether im in the opposition in india, but for point in time during covered when we saw borders closing, when we sought noncooperation coming from a lot of places, india was a country that was sending out vaccines to its neighboring countries. It was understanding its responsibility in the recently concluded g20. We were equally responsible that we have an entire European Union which is not part of the g20 and we pushed it over glad that it happened during our presidency. So yes, i think india does make a very conscious choice because of its challenges and also how it sees its role across the globe, being able to i would say maneuver through these challenges is something i think every country should be looking forward to and morning to align with india and how it sees the world and how it looks at cooperation rather than confrontation. Just to stick with you here, in particular, do you have broadly, not just european, but many europeans in the room. I think it would be extremely useful for this audience to get a better sense from you for how you imagine the europeindia relationship developing. How is it its very clear that on the one hand, india has a strong and growing relationship with the same time, india considers itself as nonwest and at times that takes the form of criticism of particularly, not just the United States, but i would say europe. How would you imagine, what is it that has to be done in order to actually get that europeindia relationship on a healthier and stronger footing . I definitely think it is on a healthy footing and it is only going to get stronger because i see more convergences rather than divergence in ideas. We all face is same challenge with regard to Energy Security, lima change, and how europe is battling in various parts of the global south is going to be battling it. So those are challenges we face, Job Opportunities and job security, those are things we see as long focuses. We are bringing a new idea to the table which is hopefully gaining ground globally. We will continue if you look at our trade relationship, were looking at a freetrade agreement which has been in deep freeze for many years and were now priorities it that. Hopefully that should be coming to closure soon. I personally feel theres only one way forward as far as indiaeuropean relationships are concerned. There are going to be hiccups in the way but those hiccups will not lead to hesitations and moving things forward. I believe the time is now more than ever. Lets open it up to the floor, i have sophie. Please. The question i wanted to ask was how the eu engages with partners. One of the themes of the conference has been the need for new forms of partnership, more equal partnerships, not just within the Transatlantic Alliance but across the world. By the time it gets to its internal position, its like take it or leave it, this is our offer. Im wondering if the panel could reflect on how the you you engages with its partners over the coming years, and what can its Global Partners do to promote stronger relationships. Thank you so much, sophie. Let me collect several questions. Yes, please. Thank you, natalie. Two quick questions to senator vance, if i may. First of all, can i ask you to reflect on the death of Alexey Navalny and what that tells you about the putin regime. Secondly, you talked about the necessity for the United States to pivot to asia. One of washingtons big plays on asia and the last couple of years has been orcas, the agreement by which the United States promised to assist estrella and the u. K. To develop a fleet of Nuclear Powered submarines, including through the sale of three virginia class ssns next decade. What do you think about orcus, and would it be safe under a Trump Presidency . Thank you. A question for senator vance. It is nice to hear the reassurances on nato and European Security. I wonder what you think about the norman nato idea that is being pushed forward by heritage 22. 5 2025 project and the center for renewing america which foresees the u. S. Remaining in nato, but minimizing its role to extended det returns and handing over the entire responsibility for conventional military capabilities as well as leadership to europeans. Are you aware of the plants and do you think that might become part of the agenda, should former President Trump be reelected . Thank you. Also a question to senator vance. First of all, you said putin said he supports biden. Dont forget, putin always lies. Thats a first point. Second point, you said about the importance of watching to asia definitely. But dont forget that your state of ohio is exporting 11 billion to europe and what will be with a thousand jobs in the state of ohio if europe will be disrupted by putin, which he clearly wants to do. And also the roots of more than half of the population of ohio, german, irish, ukrainian, lithuanian, polish, english. What to say to these people, just that you are not so interested in europe right now and the last thing about determinant ukraine had a fantastic determinant against russia who had Nuclear Weaponry and because of the push from the United States of america, you took it from us. So if you do not want to help ukraine, so help us become back a nuclear state. There is a lot there and i will try to respond to all of it. To respond to navalnys death look, he was clearly a brave person. His death is a tragedy. I dont think that he should have been in prison. I dont think that he should have been killed in prison. And i condemn putin for doing it. But heres the problem it doesnt teach us anything new about putin. Ive never once argued that putin is a kind and friendly person. Ive argued that hes a person with distinct interests, and the United States has to respond to that person with distinct interests. We dont have to agree with him. We can contest him and we often will contest him. But the fact that hes a bad guy does not mean we cant engage in basic diplomacy and prioritizing americas interests. There are a lot of bad guys all over the world, and im much more interested in some of the problems in east asia right now than i am in europe. To respond to one of the earlier questions, the question about the heritage 2025 initiative, is consistent with what im articulating here which is that we need europe to play a bigger share of the security role, and thats not because we dont care about europe. Its because we have to recognize that we live in a world of scarcity. When i listen to these questions and i listen to so many of the private conversations ive had, one of the attitudes that i think is very, very dominant at the Munich Security Conference is the idea of the american superpower that can do everything all at once. And what im telling you is that we live in a world of scarcity, a world of scarcity and weapons manufacturing and americas capacity to make the critical machinery of war, and that world of scarcity is what im trying to get us all to wake up to. In that world of scarcity, we cant support ukraine and the middle east and contingencies in east asia. It just doesnt make any sense. The math doesnt work out in terms of weapons manufacturing. One final point i want to make here is i hear a lot of selfcongratulation in this room and some of the conversations that ive had back home in the United States, this is not just a criticism of europe, a lot of selfcongratulation about how much our gdp is bigger than russias gdp. And yes, we are richer than russia. Our citizens have better lives than the average russian citizen. That is certainly something to celebrate and be proud of. But you dont win wars with gdp or euros or dollars. You win wars with weapons, and the west doesnt make enough weapons. I dont mean to beat up on germany here because i love germany, but i want to respond something ms. Lang said earlier. Look, germany is the one country, maybe in nato, that did not follow the stupid washington consensus and allow their country to be deindustrialized during the 70s, 80s, and 90s. And yet, at the very moment that putin is more and more powerful, where the russian army is invading European Countries en masse, this is the point at which germany starts to deindustrialize . Look at the number of people working in manufacturing in germany now versus ten years ago. Look at the critical Raw Materials produced in germany now versus ten years ago. The Energy Dependence now versus 10 or 20 years ago. We have got to stop deindustrializing. We want europe to be successful, but europe has got to take a bigger role in its own security. You cant do that without industry. Thank you. We decreased our Energy Dependency because we got rid of our dependency on russian gas. This is something that germany has done throughout the last years and is made us stronger. Like i said before, i dont have a problem with being told that it in the European Union germany needs to step up, and i dont have a problem with being told that the European Union weve been told we need new partnerships and we also know that we need to win trust in the world and therefore we need to engage more with the global south. To do this successfully i think europe needs to stand on three points or needs to be better in three points. First of all, we need to be faster. Last year here at the mc was some talk on resource strengths and stuff like this. Everyone was telling us everything sounds really good, but i have a problem, if i want to build a harbor, and the same time brussels did not respond to my letter. This is a big problem, we need to be faster when we build partnerships with other countries. We need to be credible. I saw this very much at the cop conversations, how many people from the global south tell us were only willing to do partnerships with you if you hold up to your words. If you tell us about climate financing, if you tell us about loss and damages, and then you dont put in the work and put in the money, actually we dont really want to work with you we dont really believe the partnership will strengthen us. The last one i think is something i say is part of the German Government at the moment, we need to be more reliable. This also really affects us in germany. In the last weeks weve seen that in many cases germany has turned their vote on things that are happening in the European Union. We have first said yes and then said no, and then blocked think that are happening. This has really weakened our role within the European Union but in the end, its also going to weaken the European Union. So therefore europe and also germany needs to be more reliable. Thank you for that. I want to do two things. The first thing is that im not as a british politician that left the European Union going to tell europe how to handle the global south. Thats the first thing. The second thing im going to do is im going to go along with what my republican friend has said. Russia has increased its defense spending since 2014 by 300 . China has increased its defense spending since 2014 by 500 . And before the war in ukraine, nearly every european country was reducing its defense spending bar a few exceptions, poland, finland, czechoslovakia. So there has been a problem. This is a wakeup call. And the question for us is, do we live up to those noble men and women of the late 1930s and 1940s who saw the peril in front of them and raised their game . Or do we continue to naval gays and look over to america na vel gaze and look over to american say, you come and fix our problems. America has always had these trends of isolationism. We saw it during the First World War and we saw it at the beginning of the second world war. Notwithstanding the problems, 75 billion pounds worth of aid and a situation from america to ukraine and a situation which south korea is sending more shells to ukraine then the whole of the european family combined is a challenge to us as a community. In terms of the global south, they say hypocrisy. Thats what they say. They say, why do these people, and lecture us with their values the whole time . Where were their values during the pandemic when they hoarded vaccines and wouldnt share . And who pitched up to share . China and russia. Look, india is not a middle power. India is the emerging superpower. Get on board. We need india, not the other way around. So this is a wakeup call to us it seems to me in this room, not the other way around. Im so glad you said that. You can say it again, i can only reinforce. Yes, india is the superpower, especially in the global south. I the reason why i say this, we obviously are going on talking about china. We are facing challenges from china and we are a country that continues to adhere to International Rules based order. That is something where we are facing a challenge with them not even believing it or wanting to try and attempt doing that. So that is a challenge that we face. That is why when you Say Something like what would you tell the eu about partnerships, and she also mentioned something which said take it or leave it. I would say take it, leave it, deal with it. India has multiple format versus the take it or leave it method. So you all will have to deal with it and deal with our challenges and understand that not every challenge comes from a european perspective. It also comes from various nations perspectives and their priorities. Thank you. This is been absolutely incredible panel. I think it really sort of highlighted on the one hand some of the things that we knew already. It is a world of scarce resources and i think we all agree that in this context, it europe really needs to step up to the plate. I think on this particular point, there is agreement. Theres also the sense that whereas indeed the United States cannot solve all the powers in the world, the United States remains an indispensable power in this world and we would very much like to see the u. S. Continue to remain very much engaged in this part of the world and however as weve seen its also a world in the flip of the coin, there being scarce resources and there is a growing number of players that are making their voices heard. We need to understand what they can contribute to the world and of course these powers themselves beginning with india need to take on an increasing share of responsibility for the worlds problems. So please join me in thanking what has been a fantastic panel to kick off this final day of the Munich Security Conference. Today, Maryland Governor wes moore and utah governor spencer coxe discussed bipartisanship in the United States. Live at 12 35 p. M. Eastern on cspan, cspan now, and online at cspan. Org. Quite cspan is your unfiltered view of government. We are funded by these Television Companies and more. Including wow. The world has changed. The fast, reliable Internet Connection is something no one can live without. Wow