Transcripts For CSPAN U.N. 20240703

Good morning. My name is graham and im the Vice President for Technology Programs and strategy here at the Atlanta Council. Im delighted to welcome you this morning to a conversation with aarti hollamaini, director of the United Nations office for outer Space Affairs. To discuss the growing role of the private sector in International Space collaboration. By the end of the decade, it is expected that the global space economy will reach 1 trillion. This figure encompasses increased investment by governments and also includes the private sector. From Internet Services enabled by satellites to the continuous observation of earth, local space activities have changed the way that societies function and how we understand our planet. As we go back to the moon, venture deeper into the solar system, and find practical ways to use Space Capabilities to probe life here on earth, its essential that we collaborate. This notion is at the heart of the work here at the Atlanta Council Atlantic Council, to shaeupt Global Future together, and from the first times humans explored space, accord tpwhaeugs International Partners coordination with International Partners has been essential for success and safety when thousands of miles beyond our planet. Todays conversation will explore the roles of and facilitation between governments, companies and International Organizations like the u. N. Office for outer Space Affairs. I want to thank everybody for joining this morning here in washington, d. C. , and to those tuning in here from around the world. Thank you to our team. Thank you to the manager editor of pay load, an innovative news outlet covering the business and policy for space, for moderating todays conversation. And thank you so much to aarti and her team for making time in what seems to be an extraordinarily busy schedule to join us here today. Over to you to launch into it. Thank you so much and thank you to the council for hosting this conversation. I know im so excited to sit down with you on your first visit to the u. S. And hear a little bit about what youve been doing both over in vienna and here. So to start off with, in case any of our audience are unfamiliar, can you talk a little bit about what is the u. N. s office of outer Space Affairs and how does it fit into the web of our space policy structures that are out there. Art. Aarti sure. Thank you for having me. Ive joined the u. N. System only 6 1 2 months ago after spending my whole career in industry. So im learning as i go at this point and trying to understand the system. But it was actually formed back in 1957 as an expert unit within the u. N. Secretariat. And it was formed to support what was then an Ad Hoc Committee on the peaceful use of outer space. It grew over the years and in 1992 it became the office of Space Affairs division, outer Space Affairs division, in the secretariat and in 1993 it moved to vienna and was called unoosa officially. We are secretariat to Global Navigation satellite systems where, again, weve convened the different providers, the russian, the chinese, the american, the europeans so that they can discuss interoperability and cooperation coordination. Half of our mandate is the secretariat function. Making sure that all Member States are aware of an asteroid threat coming, this sort of thing. The other half of our work, which was not there at the outset of our office at the establishment of our office, is Capacity Building. We do Capacity Building for the United Nations Member States to make sure that Member States understand and can benefit from all that Space Technology, data has to offer. That wasnt thought of when we were established back in the day. We see a lot of u. N. Offices being established more recently in recent years like counterterrorism, office for youth, and if we were setting up i think if the United Nations was establishing this office now, it would probably be very different to what it was when it was set up. Jacqueline that makes a lot of sense, given how much the industry has changed since then. You mentioned you recently left industry to come to the United Nations. What was the driver in taking this new job . What was the appeal of being at the center of all these treaties and kind of setting the standards for International Space exploration . Aarti i will say, im not a space lawyer and the assumption is that if you work for unooss, thats what you do unoosa, thats what you do. For me, ive spent a long time in industry. I was secretary general of the global satellite operators association. To be very tangible, what i did well was being the ambassador for the Satellite Communications sector and i also got criticized by my members because in our publications sometimes i would advocate around the benefits of these services and i wouldnt necessarily even mention the word satellite. And my members would say, you havent even mentioned the word satellite. And youre meant to be promoting us and our companies and our work. And i said, look, you dont actually need to talk about the technology, its the service, its the difference that it makes to peoples lives, to governments, to businesses, to schools and so on that really counts. And so in transitioning to this role, i almost feel that it tunes in finer to where i want to go and what i would like to achieve with it. So perhaps that gives you some insight into the move from industries to this role. Jacqueline absolutely. And my next question is about how space impact life on earth . Commercial providers play a Critical Role from the space ecosystem now, that was probably not the case when the office was established. But how you have seen commercial capabilities and or bit and orbit impact life on earth . Aarti that is a big question. It would have a very big answer. But if i can give you perhaps a couple of examples. We have on the one hand totally invisible outcomes from Development Capabilities which are spinoff technologies embedded into our daily lives. Whether its the memory foam in your bed or the escalators when youre going to the underground system, you know, thats on the one hand. But whats really impressive, really exciting is when you think that without imagery from space, we wouldnt even know that theres a climate crisis. If kenya we have 245 schools who are connected, isolated into in the very corners, the deepest, remote of the corn, of the country where theres corners of the country, where normally theres no infrastructure at all and you have children being able to access a project online and if i can stay with that example for a second, the satellite operator involved, they did they measured the impact of this case study, they worked with the kenyon government and with the kenyan government and with the other providers and they saw that by giving children access to a sper Net Connection interNet Connection, not 5g or anything like that, the most basic connectivity, by giving them access to one hour per week, they were able to increase the learning age by 18 months. So thats so powerful. But whats really impressive is that when you dig a little bit deeper and you see what, ok, how much does that stkpho s because, you know cost . Because, you know, youre taking complex Space Technology and youre bringing it out into the sticks where theres nothing, you know, you have power issues, you have electricity and all of basic, basic issues in these areas, the answer is 3 per month per child, per year, sorry, 3 per child per year. Thats less than the cost of a starbucks every morning, right . Thats one example we could talk example. We could talk about so many others in deforestation, Climate Change is such a massive issue right now. So i know that a company like planet, thanks to the High Resolution imagery that they have provided, in brazil they prevented i think it was 40 illegal raids and why . Because using that kind of High Resolution imagery from space, you can see through clouds. You can see precise details. You can actually see the fine line of a road which has been deforested into a very big, dense forest, where then the equipment will be driven in to start the illegal activity. And by seeing with that precision from space, they were able to prevent 40 actions of illegal deforestation. There are numerous kpwafrpls, i could carry on examples, i could carry on forever and i think theyre really inspiring. Just to give you the sense of the difference we can make with earth observations, imagery on the one hand, Satellite Communications on the other. Jacqueline absolutely. Its very inspirational what space can do. Part of the reason i love covering it its so inspirational. So youve talked about the fact that the u. N. Previously has been focused on a lot of these big treaties. Working government to government, specifically in the state realm. But we just talked about all this very Exciting Technology in the commercial sector. So how is the u. N. Trying to harness that innovation in the commercial sector and what challenges does that pose compared to working directly government to government . Aarti for me in my observation, im so new to the u. N. , i didnt work in the Public Sector before, so im really observing with a great sense of objecttifickity objectivity and trying to figure out, a, how does the system work and how much flexibility do we have to not change it per se, but introduce novel angles which will be appreciated by the Member States who are there. And ive already seen that. So Member States, especially within the committee on peaceful use of outer space, are deliberating on really important issues. Whether its space for global health, whether its issues of space governance and the longterm sustainability, things like that. They really are deliberating on matters which are of fundamental importance to answer todays questions in the field. And they, when we bring private industry to, for example, make a technical presentation, they realize that, wow, we didnt know that these innovations were happening. We didnt know the fate of industry or our collective ability, for example, to remove debris from orbit. We didnt know that japan, for example, has introduced guidelines to put a license in place for active debris removal. The only country in the world to have done so. Now, if we want to scale these kind of examples, surely we need that knowledge to be wider disseminated so that other countries can also put such licenses and such guidelines in place. Right . So by involving the private sector we can bring a more dynamic approach, but fundamentally we can inform the decisions and hopefully accelerate some of the very necessary Decision Making that has to happen within the committee and perhaps more generally in policy all over the world. Jacqueline you talked about debris removal which is an area that there are other areas as well but specifically debris removal is something ive covered before. Where companies are kind of banding together and putting out sets of best practices on their own or working with other nongovernmental organizations on nonbinding agreements. How do you think those are helpful to have kind of these industrywide standards outside of a body like the u. N. . And how do you kind of approach those sort of standards that are set outside of a major body like that . Aarti i think its very unfortunate when we have to start arguing about mandates and who should do what. I think we have to be very realistic and pragmatic. The reality is that with the current state of geopolitics around the world, we are going to have to move forward in the space of in the field of space governance in a different way to what weve seen previously. There was a time for global treaties and so on but what we see now is, as it was harder to find consensus, we shifted more towards a time of guidelines and, most recently, longterm sustainability guidelines which were adopted by consensus. They took as long as any treaty would to negotiate, but the good thing about them is, would you rather have negotiated a treaty which would have been an agenda item in the committee all the way until it was adopted, and then remove that agenda eye telephone and wait for them to say, to ratify, look what happened with the moon treaty, how many have ratified it . Very few. Right . So would we rather be in that scenario or would we be in the situation which we are in now which is we have a set of guidelines which can evolve, which are being complemented by Member States now negotiating new guidelines, new additional guidelines, and which we can work with and the company has this as an ongoing agenda item, were now working with Member States to help them implement it. Its so important that Member States understand the nitty gritty within these guidelines. For example, there is one which talks about sharing data in order to prevent collisions in space and so on. So these were developed by the experts who sit within the committee, who may be space agencies, ministries of Foreign Affairs, in the case of the u. S. , state representatives, but also nasa representatives. But the people within Member States who are likely to implement these guidelines and take them and turn them into norms and binding rules may be the telecoms regulator. It may be a space agency, it may not be. Its not necessarily the interlocutors who sit within the committee. Its a huge responsibility on us to engage with others who are talking about rules, who are considering rules, be they Civil Society and nonPublic Sector players, be they regulators. So as i said, we have to have a pragmatic approach. Its a waste of time to be arguing about mandates. We know what is our mandate and we will continue to do what we can in the context in which we are working, which is not an easy one. But at the same time initiatives also by the private sector. For example, a Global Satellite Operator Association where i worked previously recently adopted a code of conduct. This is showing us that satellite operators are coming together to see, ok, what can we do . Its not going to be binding on us, but still what is the lowest common denominator where we do agree . And perhaps it informs individual operators to go an extra mile. Because maybe it helps them in terms of showing what Good Behavior looks like, what responsible behavior looks like, right . So i think we need to embrace all of whats happening but we must really see how can we move from recommendations and guidelines to empowering Member States to embed them into their national policymaking. Jacqueline youve touched on this but looking to go deeper. Youve touched on all of the varied stakeholders from state to space agencies to industry that can and should be involved in these kind of discussions. So where im looking to get your thoughts on where these discussions should be happening. There are u. N. Hosted events, there are various trade shows like space emposum where i understand youll be next week, nato meetings, theres a space adjacent, like the u. N. s Climate Change conference. Do you have thoughts on where these conversations should be focused . Aarti that is such an important question and i not so long ago in february had a moment on precisely this question. Because indeed we have events and useful discussions happening in many different fora and in present thats always good. Its always good to talk and advance your thinking and see where does that take news is what new avenues and ideas take us . What new avenues and ideas might we have . The problem i see is that being in the u. N. , the u. N. As a whole is at an inflexion point. Other companies are also at inflexion points. Its very easy to throw stones at the United Nations. At the highest level, at the more technical level like we set, its very easy to do that and say, oh, its not delivering. You cannot blame the United Nations for individual member state politics. It really is as simple as that. But why am i saying this . Because its had stones thrown at it for we need a new global treaty, we need binding rules, theyre not delivering, its deadlocked, they dont progress. But if youre going to have valuable and important discussions, for example, the Saudi Space Agency hosted a fantastic conference on active debris removal in february. Twoday conference with every relevant stakeholder to that topic. Being present. Really, really great. Both at institutional level, industry level. But none of the Decision Makers, the policymakers who reflect on these questions within the committee, the committee which does have the unequivocal mandate on this, were there. Because vienna is the hub where these discussions happen. So we have to find ways of bringing more such important discussions and dialogues to the policymakers and because we have space aat that shays sitting within the permanent positions in vienna, because we have a structural dialogue which has a formal mandate from the u. N. General assembly, which takes place religiously almost in vienna, we have to make sure that the discussions happen there. So that goes to two things, it goes to, one, organizing more events and meetings in vienna around the existing structure, which we have a scientific and technical committee, subcommittee which meets in february, we have a legal subcommittee which meets in april. We have a meeting with which takes place in june. Each of which is two weeks long. Secondly, it goes to the point of how do we find ways of bringing nongovernmental actors to be more involved in the committee itself . Andly there mentioned and there i mentioned Member States bringing industry representatives onto their delegations, inviting them to make technical presentations, or us organizing, working with Member States to organize side events during the committee, to really keep the Decision Makers abreast of the latest developments and make sure that their status of knowledge is as advanced as the Technology Development in the sector. Not obvious, but thats how we need to work. Jacqueline that makes a lot of sense. So the space industry, there are obviously exceptions to this. There are Space Companies everywhere. The space industry is primarily headquartered in a couple of areas. The u. S. , europe, japan. Do you have thoughts on how those companies can or how companies in those countries can work with companies in emerging space nations to help sort of give emerging space nation acadomeistic nation acadomeistic space capability nations a domestic space capability . Aarti we have countries in the emerging economies, right, who would love to have their own satellite. Its a matter of national prestige. Its a matter of advancing stem development in their countries. This does happen. In principle, should we be encouraging countries to launch new satellites . I mean, you might say from a Space Availability point of view, thats not necessarily what we should be doing. But for me, i think we need to accelerate progress on so many different things. And one of those things is Socioeconomic Development and moving the needle on different Sustainable Development goals. Whether its health care for all primary educational and for all Climate Changerelated issues, sustainable marine life and all of that, where all of these things make a difference. If you mind rereading your question because ive distracted myself. Jacqueline youre fine. Its how should companies in kind of these hot beds of space activity or space commercial activity, can or should they be working with emerging space nations to spread the wealth in terms of commercial cape stphblt. Aarti capability . For me, should we wait for commercial interests to align with policy objectives . Or bridging the digital divide. Or enabling health care for all, education for all. Should we embed it by design so that the Capacity Building that our office does actually leverages the strengths that lie within private industry, in terms of knowledge and capabilities, in terms of funding and resources, in order to accelerate progress on what we do . For me, thats the point. We do Capacity Building and we call upon experts when we do that. We run a program called u. N. Spider, in the last five years weve run 41 technical advisory missions. Weve gone out and worked in any given country with six to derek six to nine different militaries to see, what is the need in the country . How can we help you build resilience . Its all about disaster relief. Very often, we find that they cant access data. They need essential space data. We can help access space data for them but we cant do it without partnering with private industry. We already have agreements in place with airbus. Weve put in place an open data initiative. We need to do more of this. We cant do it without private industry. So its not really about the enabling technology. But it is about empowering Member States and giving them the capabilities to become resilient and to grow themselves. I want to talk about the space Bridge Program which you launched late last year. Can you talk about what it is and why you think its important . Aarti the whole world works in silos. Silos exist in any field. Public sector, private sector, any organization struggles with silos. We talked a lot about the need to bit bring private sector into the decisions on space governments and moving the needle on stds. Thats one silo we need to break down. For me, the United Nations space bridge is awaited a way to bridge the gap between space and nonspace, between Public Sector space agencies and Decision Makers and industry, be it between space agencies on the one hand and telecoms regulators on the other. There are so many different bridges that need to be built in order to foster a dialogue and to advance together on critical questions. That was the thinking behind that. We think that there are many important questions that need to be asked, more importantly answered. Big challenges require multiple partners. Thats why we need to find, what are the right questions that need to be asked . Who are the relevant experts that need to be convened around those questions in order to come up with ideas and avenues of how to advance on that . We are already going to be convening twice this year. One will be with the United Nations Environmental Program in nairobi. I hope later this year. We are learning that there is impact on the atmosphere, both from launches going up into space but more importantly from the amount of satellites and debris which is burning up in the atmosphere. And stakeholders which are concerned with environment. They had asked their United Nations account, surely this is relevant to us . We dont know anything about it. They said, this is your domain. We were able to say, of course. We know theres Important Research happening in the field. We will be bringing together some space experts around this to talk to the environmental community. We are bridging one bridge there already. Another one which is closer to home and more obvious is around space situational awareness. There are so many systems. Some are public. In the u. S. , you are developing the track system here. The european union, eu sfp. You have systems which were born out of the private sector such as the Space Data Association which is now a publicprivate initiative. You have many different experts, some public, some private, also Civil Society who should be convened because ultimately we need a global space Traffic Management system. The United Nations is not going to become an operational entity like that. At the u. N. , what do we have . Unique convening power to bring the relevant stakeholders to the table and to make progress. So we hope to do that around the General Assembly taking place at the end of october in new york. A couple of examples of how the usb should work. Aarti yes. Yes. In december, you announced the beginning of a process to identify specific topics. These are the two topics . Aarti new questions and new topics are coming up all the time. We are the cinderella of the u. N. System unfortunately. That goes back to the fact that we were created with the sole function of being a secretariat to the Committee Without the notion of, we carry this huge responsibility of being the secretarygeneral custodian of space. This whole Capacity Building mandate that we have is a massive responsibility. The only part of the u. N. That has a mandate entirely dedicated to space. So we are in outfit thats 25 people on the United Nations regular budget. Perhaps another 10 on extra extra budgetary resources. So its a very small office. Theres a limited amount that we can do. For the moment, we have these two in the planning. I into attended a tabletop exercise on Planetary Defense two days ago. Another idea came out of that where we should try to involve relevant countries into the dialogue. Its important for us that, whether its on Planetary Defense, solar whether, all areas where many countries around the world dont have knowledge and capabilities, that we use our convening data to ensure that this knowledge is disseminated as wide as possible. You will find Brilliant Minds in every country. A country may not be a spacefaring nation but they will have experts and researchers who can contribute to these fields as well. Lots of ideas are coming. This is perhaps an area where the private sector could help. We would welcome of working with private sector reps who have ideas for space bridge on this topic. We can hosted, support the organization of it. The question is just time. Such a small office. Im very new. I bring a set of expertise which wasnt in the office previously. So the vision is very much that the office needs to grow. We are going to deliver on the expectations of the Member States, of the Inspector General himself. Theres a space policy breach. Everybody knows that space is important. If space is this important, you should also be that important. And it is. But we must put our money where our mouth is really. I hope to be able to drum up support, both from the u. N. System to appreciate the relevance and the impact and the potential of the office to new move the needle on this issue, but also inspire Member States to help us help them and to inspire countries in the global north to help us help the global south as well. Do you have a wish list . How many people do you think the office needs to meet these expectations and be able to do the work you laid out . Aarti i dont really do dreaming. I prefer to keep my feet on the ground and be realistic. Start small. Theres no doubt about that. For me, it has to be 100 people within one to two years. It has to be. Its not sustainable for me personally, for the staff in the office. Why are we here . Its a big responsibility. We have what it takes to do it. Im no stranger to having to punch above our weight. Im a Global Trader with two soft members. We pushed back on mobile terrestrial to defend satellites successfully for many years. So we have the brains to be able to do that. We need resources as well. Theres only so much you can do with being resourceful. You need resources as well. I want to talk about your trip to the u. S. This week. This is your first trip since taking office. What message are you bringing from vienna . What information are you trying to bring home . Aarti a lot of people dont know that unicef exists. Seven months ago when i was not yet part of the United Nations, i was still an industry representative. I knew they existed. But i really wasnt concerned about the mandate or the relevance to what i was doing. Im sure the space industry is also wondering that. The message that i bring from my own objective observation of the system is, wow. I feel that we are almost unashamedly doing Business Development for the space sector as a whole because we are promoting the benefits of space services, space data, Space Technology. Without meaning to be the beatty arm for a whole swath of companies, i feel that we are. Thats an opportunity for the space sector to put its best foot forward. For me, its an opportunity to really make a difference on the ground on so many different policy objectives. What im taking away is a greater understanding of how we can be more impactful. Im hearing from the u. S. Government department, different offices, what they would like to achieve, what they would like to see. And im able to engage with them to see, how can we Work Together to achieve this . What strikes me the most is that , even though we know theres a lot of politics at play right now in the real world, in my bilateral engagements with the different important actors, the ambitions are very similar if not identical. People want to achieve the same goals. Theres just a whole lot of mistrust and misunderstandings because of the lack of communication and the lack of communication because of the positions. The country is not allowed to engage with representatives of other countries. You will not overcome your problems if you dont engage. They are, i really hope to proffer a greater understanding. If you cant talk to this person, maybe you can if im in the room, if the United Nations is in the room. Lets focus on what we can do and not what we cant do in order to make a difference. We talked a lot about multilateral fora. You may have seen all the japanese flags up. Theres a japanese official visit next week where the japanese Prime Minister is coming. How do you view whats the role of bilateral engagements like this on orbit . How do you see them seeping into these broader discussions weve been talking about . Aarti all dialogue is good. We must make sure that we dont lose trust through fragmentation. Whether its industry going off to do its own thing, its a group of countries doing their own thing and taking their own initiatives, dialogue and bringing people together is always good. We mustnt lose trust. Openness and transparency is really valuable. Personally, when i saw the question you had about the u. S. And japan, im trying to encourage our japanese delegation to be a little bit more bold. They are leading when it comes to debris removal. They are leaving leaving in all of the thought process and work that theyve done to come up with guidelines for the first global removal. There are so many critical legal questions that need to be asked when you are talking about removing a piece of debris from space. Theyve done all of that thinking. If we want to scale that because we know we need to scale debris removal, we need to share that knowledge with a much broader range of Member States and hope that we can foster many more of them to come up with similar guidelines and licenses. But we have cultural differences. Whereas the u. S. Is not shy, our Japanese Counterparts are more reserved. When you have something to contribute and you know the issue is so important, we want to bring them out of their shells. We hope the u. S. Can motivate the japanese delegation to be bolder and impart some of the very valuable work that they are doing and share it with other Member States. We have a subcommittee meeting coming up. I have to convince the japanese delegation to bring scale. We are working to see if they can bring the ministry of Foreign Affairs to talk about their licensing process. Jacqueline thats fascinating. The legal aspect of debris removal, we could talk for an hour about that. We are nearing the end of our time. To close on a forwardlooking note, you are new to the job. What have you learned in your time on the job so far . Now that youve been in the job and gotten a feel for it, what are your Top Priorities Going Forward for the . Next year or so . For the next year or so . Aarti we spent the first four months really listening to Member States and trying to collect our thoughts around the priorities. We presented a strategy to Member States which has five pillars. The first one is sustainability, obviously. Every Member States as the same thing. They may have different priorities but they all said the same objective. Space sustainability, space for the fdgs. How do we make a difference . Spotlight on africa. How do we leverage engagement with the private sector to accelerate progress on all of these issues . These are our priorities. I need to focus on making sure that the office is equipped with the right skill set and the appropriate resources to be able to embark properly on each one of these plans. I also want to make sure that we are advancing in the near term on critical issues. Lunar coronation for example. Thats a big one. Absolutely vital. We need to look at the broader court nation. How do we share data . How do we ensure missions dont . Clash with each other . How do we ensure we dont put multiple Navigation Systems around the moon . The moon is 1 6 the size of the earth. There are so many different areas where the committee needs to advance now. My priority is making sure that we are helping Member States realize the weight of responsibility that lies on their shoulder and that they are not a hidden committee tucked away in vienna which many people knew nothing about. Now they are now, the spotlight is on them. The world is waiting for them to deliver. We cant do that without the support of individual Member States. The u. S. Is a really important one of them. Really look forward to moving forward on all of this, also with u. S. Support. Jacqueline we are unfortunately out of time. I know this has been really interesting for me. You have a lot on your plate. Thank you for being here today to talk about it. I hope you enjoy the rest of your visit to the u. S. Get out to colorado next week. Thank you to the Atlantic Council for hosting. Thanks to our audience in the room. Aarti thanks for having me