Heath, editorial director at politico. We are coming to you live from new york with the United NationsGeneral Assembly has been meeting all week. The debates have been dominated by overlapping crises, Public Health emergencies, a looming recession, and the climate crisis. It would take a lot of america and institutional leadership to alleviate these crises. Here to talk to us about those challenges and how he is confronting them is the World Bank President david malpass. Welcome. David hello. Thanks. Ryan Climate Change is an issue that accelerates or worsens each of these issues, so we need to address the elephant in the room. Mr. President , you have been facing calls to resign over your hesitancy to attribute Climate Change to human activity. You know that al gore called you acclimate denier and you have rejected that, but there are still issues out there. I want your perspective. Tell us, did you consider resigning why or why not . David not resigning. We are making a forceful leadership job by the world bank on climate. I think the unfortunate side was was asked are you a climate denier, i should have said no. I did not go in that direction because no one said that other than al gore, and it was pretty much offtopic. I was at a seminar on tuesday where we were supposed to be talking about impact, so i did not do my best job in answering that charge. Thanks. Brian now we have heard some stakeholders and you should resign, or they say sometimes publicly or privately that the bank is dragging its feet on Climate Change, but what about the shareholders. 187 members signed up to the paris climate agreement. Have any of them ask you to resign . David no. It is clear human activity is causing Climate Change comes that the task for us, for the world is to pull together the projects and funding that actually has an impact. I have been frustrated with the World Community because rather than looking for impact, they often say the world bank is not doing enough, but from the shareholders there has been strong support for me, for the world bank, and for the recognition. We did a record fundraising for our window for the poorest countries just last december, and a couple of weeks ago i went for the nperson lunch of that. Inperson launch of that. The world bank has unique tools that are recognized by the Global Community. We just did the Pandemic Response facility that a new large trust fund that extends the learning that we did from the covid crisis from the pandemic preparedness or lack of preparedness that was there. With massive Global Community support and from our shareholders, pushing up forward, the bank, if i may say, only the bank, can do at this quickly. I have been very happy during the years of my tenure at the bank when we could put together a Fast Response on covid itself. Remember the crisis that was facing countries with the personal protective equipment, ppe, masks, and so on . The bank was very rapid in that response. We launched even in, i launched in march april of 2020, 150 billion in search bank financing. We were hit with the ukraine invasion which caused another giant need for response by the world, and the bank lead that. We have been the mainstay for the channeling of funding to ukraine, to the humanitarian and administrative side of ukraine, and i am proud of the bank for that. We have done 9 billion of disbursement. One of the things the World Community has trouble with is it makes pledges, but they do not materialize into disbursements, so one thing i have done in my tenure is have the bank focus on impact and actual disbursements of money, so we often talk about the commitments, but in the same breath, we talk about how much of that money reach the people of the countries, and shareholders have been supportive of both the Fast Response of the Bank Increasing surges, but also the quality of the response in terms that interaction with people in developing countries. Ryan we have seen that across a range of Fundraising Efforts this week in new york. I wonder if it is fair to say that you see these criticisms are calls as a distraction from network that work . Is it politically motivated . A lot of advocates count themselves as progressives. You are republican. Is there a political motivation behind this push . David i dont know about the political motivation. I think there is a lot of frustration among all of us and how do you get impact. So, they do not like it when i voice this, that we need to go beyond ambition and pledges and actually turn that into action, and the world bank, we are the leading financier of Climate Action in the developing world. That is important. In each of my years at the bank, we have increased the amount, and from 2019 22021, in fy222, we did fy 2022, we did 30 billion of climaterelated we continue to need to have funding for Food Security, for education, for health, and as we do our climate finance, it has to be as effective as possible, so in order to do that, we are focusing the world on the big emitters in both the advanced economies and developing countries. For some activists, they have been more used to the idea of same lets just spend more. That will not work, because the amounts of money needed for making, for reducing Greenhouse Gas emissions, which is a major activity of the world bank, we are in developing countries, we are the biggest funder. I have pushed that up and we have added people and we have strengthened our leadership and all those areas, and that is having an impact, but i think there is a tendency to finger point at others when youre not having impact. Ryan is that where some of your skepticism comes from around the Energy Partnerships . Do you see them comparing unfavorably to your new diagnostics and develop and reports . David yes, lets give people some background on that. Some of the Development Agencies have come together in partnerships aimed at specific countries, called just Energy Partnerships. I think it is good to have more efforts. We actively invite that and encourage more partnerships and efforts by governments. Governments themselves are much bigger than the world bank, so it would be good if they could put in as much money in developing countries and those partnerships you mentioned could do that. The challenge they are basing is coming up with actual projects to it, and that is where the world bank comes in. The world bank is an institution that is wellprepared to have a longterm relationship with a developing country, more so than any other partner in this sphere, so if you say look, it would take 20 years to do a transition from coalfired power plants because the workers need to be retrained in the land needs to be repurposed, there needs to be renewables that are added into the grids, there need to be engineers, the world bank, to an extent, is may be the only one that can verify that over a period of time, so were working actively to have that process done and we are basically deleting the world in describing how that leading the world and describing how that is done. We had very clear literature in glasgow to where the world needed to move, which is impact, projects, including financing. That was our major point, in the world now is, i think, moving towards that direction, and i invite anyone who has ideas on that, of how the bank could do that better or differently, we look for that input. Ryan definitely one example where people think it could be done differently is on whether or not to finance fossil fuel projects or how to get out of financing existing ones, and i noticed in your attempt to clarify your remarks, you talked about what you see causing Climate Change to your staff, but she did not include oil and natural gas. Walk us through why they were not in it . Was that a deliberate choice . Is it an essential part of that product mix for the time being . What is the reluctance to move beyond those . David as we look at the reduction in Greenhouse Gas emissions, certainly fossil fuels has to be a critical part of it, but there are other parts, land use, industrial use of those. We are working hard on methane leakage and methane reduction in the world bank is beating that effort in the work with the u. S. On many of these projects, on many of these projects we work closely with the u. S. And many partners on it, and they are very happy with that process. And so, as we look at it, the challenge on fossil fuels is, and this goes into the shareholders, you see what is happening in europe. There has been a dramatic increase in the use of fossil fuels, of coal, of natural gas, as they cut off from russia, and that has drained fossil fuels or drained energy from africa, so what we are working on full speed is to try also have electricity access and Energy Access for all the people in the world that are left out. You know, there are 800 Million People who do not have electricity at all, so it is likely they would take any kind of swords. Right now what they often do any kind of source. What they often do is burn wood from forests that have been depleted, and that is harmful for the climate in the soil runoff in their countries come so that should be a very high priority for the world to move them towards less carbonintensive fuels. And now, there is also ryan a trajectory, you want to make sure theyre on the right trajectory, and your more agnostic about the mix that gets you there . David i guess that is right. In our Climate Change develop and reports, which are massive diagnostic, unique to the world bank, going country by country and finding a pathway forward for those countries in terms of mitigation, that is reducing Greenhouse Gas emissions and also adaptation for those countries. And sometimes the only way to get from here to there is transition, and you know the climate leaders have, are fully engaged in these transition fuels. John kerry has been an outspoken proponent of transition fuels to get us to the other side, and that is a mainstream part of our where will we be in 2030, which is challenging for a lot of countries, then 2040 and 2050 . On the methane reduction, we are advocating a sprint. That means lets get as much done in the next five years as possible. That is because methane is such a multiplication factor within Greenhouse Gases. Ryan lets drill down on that, because we often get caught up on carbon, but methane is incredibly damaging. You say you want to make that a particular priority because it will pack a bigger punch to deal with the methane . David exactly, and we have been asked by our leadership, the World Community, to be the leader, particular leader in that area, and we look for department with everybody on it. There is room for all countries and their leaders to make progress on these efforts. That is true also of biodiversity, where there are huge necessities and opportunities to go forward. Ryan biodiversity thats a chance to bring in china. I wonder if you see there is a competitive aspect here in the Energy Transition . Do you see china as a world Bank Competitor . They are investing heavily in the developing world. Is it a case they will fund fossil fuel projects if you are not . David i see. Not a competitor, but is there conflict there . Well, we are working in several ways with china. They are the thirdbiggest shareholder of the world bank after the u. S. And japan, so we are interested in them from that standpoint is a major shareholder, but also they are major lender into the developing world. And we have worked closely and push forward on transparency of those contracts. I think that is a critical starting point. We also work heavily and closely with the u. S. And other creditors around the world to try to have debt restructurings. For a lot of the developing countries, that is the biggest need and source of funding, to get a break on the debt payments going on. We see that around the world, the importance of Debt Reduction as a way to target new assistance for countries, so we are working in pressing china, and with europe, on how to move forward in transparency, and that gets straight to your climate point. As you do an infrastructure project, it is important to disclose the terms of that and what it will achieve. If you say it will achieve a massive increase in Greenhouse Gas emissions, then do not do that. The world bank, you know, it has been poorly reported, the world bank was the first, or was in the opening stages to stop the funding of coalfired power plants in 2012, and so i would see things sometimes on the internet that said, say they have to stop doing coalfired power plants. That was done long ago. And, it is a recognition that coal often is the highest carbon intensity, so as you think about china, one question is how would they reduce does she know, they are planning for rapid growth in coalfired power plants specifically, and that means Greenhouse Gas emissions will be increasing substantially, and so how is the world interacting with china on that . It is not just china. It is also the advanced economies, as i mentioned, now going back to burning coal. One thing i heard in new york this week from countries in africa was they are surprised at the visits they are getting from europeans to begin digging coal in new areas of the continent of africa. Ryan lets get into that fine line you walk with those african shareholders, because natural gas is another issue. It is not just coal. What reality check needs to be given to the rich world about the choices people in africa are facing . Lets not give anyone a free pass on the need for clean Energy Transition, but sometimes we dont hear enough from those african voices. What have they told you . David they are to an extent resentful that they have less access to energy and there is not a plan for them to have access to energy, so we work with them on that and say what direction does you know, there are multiple sources of energy that are cleaner. One is hydropower. That is a challenge. There have been parts of the World Community but do not want to do hydropower. Well, for many countries, i just met yesterday with , trying to finish a hydropower dam that would provide a huge amount of energy going forward. In the meantime, what countries are doing is often burning diesel or other fuel as a source of energy, often times under contract with the previous colonial power. And they know exactly what is going on. It is, from 40 years ago, we have been in this contract to have diesel power generation, and they provide the diesel fuel , and they get all the profits from the contract. And so, this is a challenge for the countries, in terms of their own governance, and in terms of their relationship with the donor countries, and so we are often in the middle of that, trying to help the countries move to Energy Access. That includes transmission. One of the Biggest Challenges is to have efficient transmission of electricity across the distances that are involved in these countries. You know, africa has, i think, 18 countries that are bigger than alaska, so think of that magnitude of challenge in terms of electricity transmission, so we work in that space trying to make it efficient, trying to make it cleaner, which a lot of waste occurs in the food change, which we work on, and in the energy chain, so the world can make a lot of progress by having the right projects. Ryan i want to get back to some of the joining up. It is noticeable you work closely with the imf. I feel like there is more ordination amongst the International Financial institutions come about at the same time there was talk last year at cop 26 that we will all get out of financing gas, oil, coal projects. That did not come about. What was your role . Do you want to see everyone aligned on getting out of some fuels, or is that a layer coordination that is too much for you . David within the international community, there are a lot of different voices, and in fact, that is changing substantially. You have seen the European Union seems to be embracing him at least for the current natural gas and nuclear. It looks as if the u. K. Will be moving towards fracking in order to have a source of natural gas, and so as we look at our shareholders, and will, it is an issue for our shareholders but a direct issue for me in the that how do we use diagnostics to help countries move in the right direction, so that applies then to other financial institutions. There are other Multilateral Development banks that i should be quick to point out, the world bank does a fifth of what all the other International Financial institutions including the imf and all the Development Banks and a host of others, in fact, it is hard to keep count of how many, the world bank does 55 more than half of thethey y want to have four pages that are more pages that are heavily negotiated the takes a long time for staff. I would rather have the staff working on projects. As we think about coordination, you are right toward nate well with imf. Part of that is the personal warmth but a lot of it is institutional overlap. The staff know each other, they Work Together and we want to build on that in the climate space but also very much in the development space. One challenge facing the world is poverty and median incomes are going down which is a giant reversal in development. We have Education Skills levels going down got not. Not. We should call it a Crisis Facing Development and address it as a core issue. You need more money from congress to help do that . I know the next round of funding is still up for debate. Do they need to give you more to do your job and given controversy this week, are you confident that they will or might you face headwinds . Thank you for that. If regard to the u. S. , we have many other funders than the u. S. , but the u. S. Has been the most generous. In the last year and over the many decades. I will say on behalf of the World Bank Group to the united states, thank you for that. We look forward to that relationship. Right now, we just completed as i mentioned to you the 25th major funding, the u. S. Is the biggest funder of that. I am grateful to the u. S. And the u. S. Treasury, the white house and others for their support of that. Going forward, i think there is a discussion the needs to be had of how do you get enough money for the poor developing countries . I recognize that the political situation is hard for leaders because the money comes from their taxpayers. I think there is a self interest by governments and having the developing world to better. That creates markets, that reduces the refugee flow. The u. K. Is rethinking how it wants to do its aid into the developing countries and i would just say to them and to the u. S. Congress, recognize the value to your own nations from these funding resources. That is all the more true because of the climate challenges, but i dont want to lose sight of the Food Security and insecurity challenges that we are facing right now. They are massive. You see those prices staying high through 2024 which presumably is going to be all the more difficult it the world heads into recession in 2023 which is another one of your predictions. What can the world bank do to help people batten the hatches . Spent a lot of time in new york last three days with that challenge. I know climate took over, which i regret. I could have done better. We are making so much progress on climate. We had a very important seminar on education because of the reversals going on there. On wednesday, we had a specific conference on fertilizer which is one of the major problems. The world bank, i lead in berlin a Food Coalition with germany as part of the g7 on Food Security. We committed 30 billion to food and food systems around the world at a vital time. That was april. A quick launch in commitment and we are building on those at the u. N. Last week. Network will go on. One of the things i mentioned is how do we have impact and how do we get things done . I have really tried to push that within our organization through people. Personnel are a critical part of how the world bank act. We have been pushing operations for Food Security which is this major challenge. Thats an interesting point. Can you have those applied to other issues . So people can know more about how you approach who do you lean on in the organization for the climate advice and for getting this project weaving forward . There is a managing director level and a Vice President level that are new faces but often old faces within the bank. Wellknown people doing stellar work on that. When covid hit, we wanted operations where we could cover a lot of countries because everyone needed masks and we were able to get as many as 160 country programs. Imagine that you have legal documents that offer financing to countries as they need money. We did that on vaccines and it was a very successful program. 10 billion and i dont know the current number that we are able to disperse and that is vital financing for countries in their vaccination programs. We are now transferring that knowledge while it was very important in the ukraine, we moved quickly in march and april. I met with president zelenskyy at the end of february in munich. We figured out we were able to commit to help them support their government Workers Health pensioners and others war broke out. After the munich security conference. The people involved are vital one has named lead the ukraine effort and another led the vaccination effort with another as the executive secretary of that. She has now led the effort over to the Pandemic Response the pandemic reparation and response in order to try to continue our work into the future. World bank is a major external funder of education for the developing world. That takes leadership and the health efforts. Climate, vogler is the Vice President for climate than under him, there is now a new leader of directors and managers that are very strong that have knowledge across the board to do that. The operations themselves for example the ccd are programs, this is the diagnostic. They come from the countries, people with knowledge of the actual problems that are faced by the countries. We have done ccdrs on turkey, rwanda, with more coming every day. There are indepth reports that get at all of these challenges we have been facing and the community embraced them wholeheartedly and i think they will be a mainstay for the Global Community in terms of climate diagnostics and thats what we have wanted and i think we are achieving that. All of this is moving fast. The g20 and g7 have been very supportive of these efforts and of pushing them forward. I just saw stephan coming in today on his bicycle, he is leading the ccdr effort from the actual, how do you keep continuity when you have all these reports feeding and from individual countries. We are doing it. I am proud of that effort by bank staff. I want to come back to the issue of impact. I have focused on this throughout my presidency and i really want the World Community where they say we can have more, good. I want to challenge them to have impact. Rather than another conference, can we on these transition partnerships that you mentioned, can wait mention any project they will do out of that and when there be a schedule . Can the world back World Bank Help with their efforts and we do every day. Thank you, we are getting some Clean Energy Projects to your desk with that offer. I felt we would finish with one last climate question. The court of your remarks, the sense that you convey saying im not a climate scientist, you cant know everything. I know you have used that line before in a town hall. In the spirit of increasing our knowledge, if a group of scientists came to you and said we want to give him some expert training, we want him to know more about this, is that an invitation you would be willing to accept . Absolutely. That wasnt a good phrase for me to use. We are deeply engaged in through our diagnostics, were trying to push the envelope forward for one on adaptation. What is the best way for vietnam to save lives by reducing adaptation . We have a lot of input from the global scientific community. That is true also on health. We interact with scientists and that has been a core part of this new that we under my leadership was able to set up very quickly. The technical advisory will put in scientific learning into that. It was a poorly chosen line. I regret that because we as an organization are using the science every day in terms of finding the most impactful projects. I would be happy to meet with climate scientists and also, i am happy to meet with Development Scientists who can help us push faster and countries. What keeps me up at night, sometimes that is asked. What keeps me up at night is for poor people in poor countries, their lives are right now on hold or going backward because of the combined crises that they are facing. I want to find better ways including climate for the world bank to interact with them to help them but also for the Global Community to do all that it can right now. A timely reminder that we are offtrack on these 17 u. N. Global goals. We focused a lot of the talk this week in new york. Thank you very much for your time. Ime at cspanshop. Org