Environment. At 4 00 p. M. Gary young talks about his book another day in the death of america. At 7 00 p. M. , David Horowitz on his book big agenda present transplant to save america. Watch the festival of books live today starting at 1 30 p. M. Eastern and sunday at 1 30 p. M. Eastern on cspan twos book tv. The name of the book is the chicken trail, following workers, migrants and corporations across the americas. The author, university of arizona professor of sociology, kathleens wharton. Doctor sportsman, what is the chicken trail . Well its a way to describe a circular movements of chickens to mexico and immigrants to the us in the briefest form . Host in a longer form, how does that occur . Guest the id is because of transformation in the poultry industry there were increases in labor conflict and because of that tyson, for example, was indicted for recruiting illegals in mexico, giving them papers, crossing the border into distributing them in their plant spirit that was far the movement north. Also, as a consequence in the poultry industry there was a flood of culture exports to mexico, which contributed to undermining the poultry industry and in rural workers particularly in mexico. There was really no alternative for them to be absorbed into an economy and as a consequence you get the migration back northward , so thats a slightly longer version. Host do a lot of mexican immigrants work in the american poultry industry . Well, this is for the nation as a whole. The Us Government has said that in 1970 about 26 of the workers were hispanic and by 1990 it had gone up over 45 . That is the nation as a whole and thats meat and poultry, not really broken down. When i looked at five states, alabama, arkansas, North Carolina, georgia and mississippi ended those estates were interesting because more than half of poultry production in the nation is conducted their and also, those were states which gained increase in the hispanic population between 1990 and 2000, so i think was North Carolina has almost a 400 increase in the hispanic population in the state. Now, thats relatively. Are sleek number start much lower, but those five states were not traditional gateways for immigrants. So, these were new destinations for immigrants and so the percentage in those states and in the county particularly county with poultry plants, put together the u. S. Census data with the us economic senses and you can see the rise in the hispanic population in those industries. Host were these jobs going untended . One of the things that got me interested in this project was the discourse about how they take jobs no one wants and im remembering even the then president of mexico in 2005 was praising immigrants for their diligence and hard work, doing jobs and he said that not even blacks wanted to do and if so when i look at the poultry industry in 1980s, for example in those states, most of the workers were africanamerican. People would say things like it took them out of the cotton field and put them in the altar industry or the cotton belt is now the poultry belt or it used to be cotton was king and now poultry is king, so the jobs were filled with people who were doing work, african americans, mostly and there is lots of anecdotal residence for example the hamlet buyer, it was the poultry factory with ignition on one of the hydraulic lines and there were 25 or 30 people who died. There were no hispanic names, so you can look either the government data, the census data or a lot of anecdotal evidence which shows there really was not a substantial population of hispanics in those states. Obviously i have excluded texas and florida, but its in these industries. Host is there a large percentage or a percentage of these workers that are undocumented . Guest well, this is a hard number to get. The estimates vary. I looked at the Social Security Administration Data of no matches and they just escalate after 94. That says these are Social Security numbers submitted by firms which do not match existing Social Security numbers in the Social Security Administration Master earnings file, so they call those mismatches and when they get at a certain number than Social Security ministration sends out letters to the firm, so the top 100 firms theres a good representation of plants , businesses in those five states and when they looked at the tax year 2002 the numbers had increased, so thats a rough way to kind of get out what the level of undocumented might be and then, there has always been raids. Dot ins has done raids. Host on poultry plants . Guest on poultry plants generally and so when operation everest was done, an undercover operation called operation everest by the department of justice, they indicted tyson for seven years engaging in this activity of recruiting illegal immigrants. No tyson executives were ever indicted for coming they were indicted, they werent found guilty. Host so, you said it escalated after 1994. Is a coincidental that that was the year nafta was passed . Guest i think it was nafta and the devaluation of the peso in mexico, which some of the Business Owners i talked to said was devastating and bankrupted them. It meant peoples savings were also diminished, so i think that increases the immigration flow. There are other things going on in mexico at the same time, which is restructuring of the economy and the government. Some of this begins after the debt crisis of 1982, so mexico defaulted on a debt. In order to renegotiate its loan and had to follow certain conditions, so down by the International Monetary fund, world bank and others and they included a series of restructuring such as privatizing state enterprises, reducing the size of the government and devaluation, opening tariffs, opening the border, so some of it had already begun. Opening of the tariff of borders had already begun when mexico join the earlier version of the World Trade Organization in 1986, so there was some lowering of tariffs, but even with nafta in 94 the Poultry Association Natural National association of poultry had managed to get a phaseout of 10 to 15 years on some poultry parts, legs and hindquarters, so that meant that the tariff would step down little by little to is zero. 2003, it was going to be zero and they were successful in getting it extended until 2008. There was a lot of poultry coming in, the amount of imports coming in. They complain that some of it was clandestine with illegal us poultry sneaking into mexico. They would send the secretary of agriculture there, but someone was dipping them off by the time the secretary got there it was gone. Host what are you why are you interested in this . Guest partly being in arizona because this 80s a major thoroughfare of immigration and its also a place where theres a lot of contestation about pro and anti immigrant and also the discourse i found frustrating. So, the discourse really is sort of polarized between what people negatively would call liberals and racists and there is a kind of title vision, which is the only actors, stakeholders are immigrants and those who are against an supporters and those against immigrants and you dont get much conversation at that level about the mexican government, which higher than oil earnings, the Us Government, businesses and one of the other problems for me as a sociologist is that the conversations of these polarized groups tend to either demonize or sanctify, whichever group you are on and as a sociologist my feeling of there really is no analytical value in slander. That wont help, so you need to move to something a bit more historical, perhaps more global in understanding the conditions under which these conflicts emerge. Host what was the advantage of tyson to supplying documents . Guest i think my attention to tyson had to do with this indictment which was public, but when i look at surveys and ethnography and research that journalists and others have done , in that early time, many were paying recruiters or existing employees to bring others. This sounds absurd today, but in the beginning they were paying i guess we called them headhunters, they were paying people to bring immigrants into the plants. Once you get if you obviously you dont need to pay anymore because you get family villages, so it wasnt really tyson and in this case i dont want to demonize tyson. Its just what originally called my attention to the difficulty and its not even poultry per se. There are many other who are in the states doing the same labor recruitment. Was more like a metaphor because you could see exports going up to mexico and people coming from mexico and quite mama to the us, so again, i mean, its not just demonizing the business. Its a much more structural thing. Host kathleen swarts men, as we enter a new presidency and discussion about trade and revamping nafta, have you reached any conclusions . Guest one of the ironies i think is the way i think of it is with the World Trade Organization and what it promotes, free trade that one branch of the united nations, which is this committee on migrant rights tries to familiar eight, so you have these wtos and the Un Organization affiliated, but you have the un pushing one way and then other organizations trying to protract migrant rights from the anti immigrant sentiment that breaks out in countries. Its a bit different than the current discussion about trade, so when i think of whats been done by that food agricultural organization, they talk about important surges. Again, this is not about the developed country, its about the developing one, so they talk about when cotton was the barrier on cotton in india there was like 18000 suicides. These were Cotton Producers who couldnt make a living producing their cotton compared to the cost of the imported cotton, so the trait theory is elegant. Its reasonable, division of labor. People talk about it as though it came down from the mountain on the tablets with moses and my feeling is, its a reasonable theory, but there is some negative externalities and the way i think about them is that they become social problems of nations and tragedies of individuals. You got one out of every 33 people according to the International Migration statistics in 2010 moving. Doesnt make sense that africa wants to move into europe. Its not sustainable, so it means to rethink trade, not just from the perspective of our current conversation of the us, but what is it doing to developing nations . Heres an example about the microburst is the macro. In 1793 the us passed a fugitive slave act, you should capture and return slaves. In pennsylvania, there were quakers and there were abolitionists who didnt support this. In fact, they were against slavery and they were engaged in the underground bringing in escaped slaves and harboring them. In 1860 there were about 4 million slaves and two plus million pennsylvanians. This is hypothetical. If every person in pennsylvania harbored a slave, every person would have to harbor 1. 7 slaves. Its a wellintentioned humanitarian approach, but its not sustainable. Obviously, the solution was abolition. Immigration today, migration today, well, its about excess population. Its about inadequate food production. Its about unfair trade. For the developing nation and civil unrest and civil war, so thats at a more global level. How can we rethink not just thanks ray cities harboring, humanitarian opening, but how can we think about this is the hard part, how can we think about conditions, which will alter the push out of these developing nations for people to want to stay home and not migrate . I dont know the answer, but i think we need to think about it at that level instead of just humanitarian in addition to humanitarian fees. Host if someone reads the chicken trail what will they learn . Guest well, they might get a different sense of the approach and potential place to look for solutions as i just suggested, i mean, that might be this isnt really exactly about the poultry business, but its interesting in the us that immigrant is the solution for everything on the part of business from computer specialist to cabbage pickers and my feeling is, well why do we think about changing our educational system so we have our own students who have these things and i have a more cynical sense about cabbage pickers, which im ready to argue for a youth brigade and send our unemployed High School Students and College Students to do youth brigade in harvesting. Thats not serious. Host what about the h28 visa program . Is that successful . Guest i dont know that its successful. Host first of all what is it . Guest they were using it in agricultural areas to bring people in as guest workers and it seems to me that that is a reasonable alternative, a reasonable solution is. Host its been around for a while. Guest yes, but there were some obligation that you house and treat them in a certain way, so that would be the h to a. Host is a successful . Guest i dont know the answer to that. Host what is your answer . Guest no, i dont i dont my guess is if it were so successful there would not be such recruitment of undocumented is my guess. Another way that a guest worker matters is that well, this is a bit different, but people now are citing the flow of immigrant is down and theres less at the border, but we already have a pipeline including first of all birthright citizenship, so if undocumented, and have a child here the child is a citizen and then can use thats an acre. They call it anchor baby, a way of extending the number of people who are here, so even if the border flow stops they are still in the pipeline. Also, family reunification is quite large at this point, so it also allows people to bring in family, extended family and others since the 1965 immigration legislation. Host the book is called the chicken trail following workers, migrants and corporations across the americas. The author, kathleen schwartzman. Guest thank you. Book tv takes hundreds of author programs rather country all year long. Heres a look at some of the events we are covering this week. Monday, we will be in cambridge massachusetts at the first. Parish church discussing the latest book. We will also be in raleigh, North Carolina, at quail ridge books for a discussion on the history of business fraud in america. On thursday, we are at politics and prose a bookstore in washington dc where historian lynn olson will talk about how london became a safe haven for the government occupied countries during world war ii. We will be a Greenlight Bookstore in new york city, where Lisa Peterson will share experiences teaching incarcerated youth. On friday, we are back in washington dc, where venture catalyst Scott Hartley will talk about the Cultural Divide in the tech industry. On saturday, we will be at the Public Library in janesville, wisconsin, for a talk from amy goldstein. Her book looks at the devastation caused by the closing of a gm plant in a counter in the great recession. Thats a look at some of the events of book tv will cover this week and many of these events are open to the public. Look for them to air in the near future on book tv on cspan2. So, i was just biding my time waiting and then a friend of mine was into youtube and youtube management. Youtube in 2010 in egypt and the arab world was just what we see from other people we didnt have reasonable arabic content at that time ticked that sounds weird to think of, but we didnt have anything originally made for youtube, just like bits and pieces taken from other countries, so he said like why dont we he wanted to produce original content and he came to me in 2010 and a said why dont you write something and he came to me because first of all i am french and will do it for a friend i will do it for free and second he said according to him i had a way with people speaking to them and they would listen. I like doing weird stuff and meeting people, so i decided so at that time politics was like you cant do political satire, soy shoes something out something else, religion. So, i came up with this idea called searching for a god which in five minutes i explained difficult a religion to people and i would show people that like you are here just like looking in the word through this keyhole thinking that there is a religion, your relief belief, but there are others that are willing to die orbit their life for that conviction and so i start to do about scientology, jehovah witness, the nation of islam and i was very interested. So, i did it before Morgan Freeman did it with the story of god, 2010. Then, it was supposed to be released to thats 11, new years eve, but something happened. Do you remember that . There was a Church Bombing and a curse you like cannot speak about religion and i know its like dark humor, but this is how we spent christmas. This is actually were on christmas, so fox news, war on christmas is not just starbucks cups, but something even worse in other places, so and we said all right we will hold back and wait for a couple of months. 25 days later we had revolution and we scrapped the whole thing and when the revolution ended he came to me and said lets do something, but political. This is how it starts. You can watch this and other programs online at book tv. Org. Welcome to the campus of the university of Southern California and the 22nd annual Los Angeles Times festival of books. Book to be as live all day long and there is a whole lineup of author events and colin programs. Today you will hear from authors such as blanche wiesen cook, michael eric dyson, hugh hewitt and many more. For a complete schedule of todays coverage go to book tv. Org. You can also follow us on facebook, facebook. Com. book tv, on twitter at book tv and on instagram at a book tv for lots of behindthescenes images and videos. Percept today from the la times festival of books is an author panel on writing biographies. Authors of books of eleanor roosevelt, Frederick Douglas and range oh proctor discussed their process. This is book to be live coverage of the la times festival of books. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]
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