Transcripts For CSPAN2 After Words 20161030

Students across wisconsin and will help them finish college. I really wondered, will that work . Will it, because theres been studies that indicate that its a drop in the bucket. What make the difference they hope . Spee01 what you did differently from a lot many of the books that i read will take a snapshot. This is the entering cohort and this is a graduate and cohort. They dont look at what happens in between. You did did something different. Talk about the longitudinal nature of your study. Guest to understand how the Program Works i felt like the experience of getting Financial Aid is in a evolving experience. The price you pay for the first year of college is not the same price you pay for the second year of college. Frankly, riegler people know that. It doesnt take experts to tell them that. And meant that we followed the same group of students over the next six years to see how their lives changed and the extent to which their need for resources in the way they use those resources and how the program affected that and how it shifted. We got to see dynamics unfold that i think are commonly missed. Host i think you got to see nuances. That is something that gets messed when youre doing snapshots. You loose all of the in betweens. Most people when they talk about the cost of college think of tuition and fees. Thats what they think of. Your buckle elaborates on what the true cost of colleges. Can you tell me about what it is and the audience about what it really takes to go to college and what it cost . Guest its far more than tuition and freeze. The federal government knows that. And what it listens the cost of attending an institution it includes things like getting a roof over your head and food to eat and transportation. But the conversation keeps coming back to tuition and fees. Thats unfortunate. Tuition and fees are less than half and sometimes only 30 of the total cost of attending college. The real problem students have are the need to pay the rent. To pay the utilities, by food. They cant do those things in the same way in college because they need to spend time in the classroom. It is those kinds of things that we saw that trip to them up over time. It wasnt the tuition and fees. That is one for example they would end up taking out a loan. It wasnt to pay the tuition. It was to pay the cost of living while going to school. Host i think those are the kind of things that people fail to appreciate. I work work in a very large public urban university. It is not uncommon for me to speak to students and have students who truly worry about things like can i pay my metro card which enables them to get to work, school, back home versus can i eat lunch this week. They. They are not just hanging out having fun. Talk a little about the narratives. What you did was distill them into some student individual experiences. Can you talk about that in terms of what the students were struggling with on a daily basis . Guest there are 3000 students in the overall study. It really focuses on six of them to try to help the reader understand what it looks like up close. That was one of my task. These these students have gone through enormous challenges and i want the reader to see them. Consider someone like chloe. Chloe was chloe was a young woman who grew up on a farm in rural wisconsin and had a horse and thought it would be cool when im altered to be able to take care of animals. Which i think is a normal ambition. She went off to twoyear college so she could do that. And while people think that Community Colleges free in this country, chloe is one of those that figured out that was not true. She had very little money. Her family was assessed to be able to only pay couple thousand dollars per year for college. After all of her grants came due she was facing a bill of over 10000 per year. She was asking yourself how my supposed to do that . Just because the federal government says my mom can contribute that 2000 dollars, she cant. Theyre wrong. So chloe sold her horse to go to college. That was the starting point. Host to me that was a pregnant example of the extreme that students will go to because they want that education. Guest she really did want it. I dont think shes anomaly. I think what happens is grandma sell something of the cousins pitch in something, families go families go to Great Lengths to make college possible. Even with that money she wasnt okay. What she did was she knew about Student Loans but wanted to try to avoid them because her mother was struggling with credit card debt. Chloe was afraid of ending up in that circumstance. Instead she took on not one job but two jobs. The. The reason was because she couldnt get enough hours from a single employer. She worked at kohls which is a Department Store in wisconsin and she worked at pet smart which make sense for jews trying to do in school. She found yourself doing those two jobs and doing what reformers tell her to do which is to take five classes at a time. Two two jobs and five classes do not add up. She was commuting back and forth, running all over the place and found yourself falling asleep in class. Again, she knew she was exerting too much energy that she was not doing enough studying. By the time she said this isnt gonna work work for me and i need other money and she applied for student loan they dont just come through immediately. It took more than a month for the loan money to arrive. By that point her grades are so bad she had been placed on academic probation and right now shes no longer in college. She has debt and no degree. Host that is what worries me about students. We talk about the american dream. You talk about it being broken for a group of students. But a student like chloe comes in she is working two jobs, she is doing the best she can trying to contribute at home and there is also some months shame involved in going through a faculty member teacher and saying im struggling, what can i do. I have seen students fall off cliffs before went may be in october they started to try to find some helper lifeline that could move through the system but it overwhelms them and then when we think about what is out there you get minimumwage jobs if you dont have a college degree. As you know from the book chloe joined the navy. That was another astounding thing. Talk a little bit about what our preconceived notion is of the College Experience and how chloes lens was different. Guest when i went to see her after she dropped out and i had to fly from two florida from wisconsin. I did that because in many cases when a student drops out of college that the last time we see them. I wanted to wanted to sit down and see what was going on. What was very clear was that she was having trouble finding work that would pay. In the navy it created a sense of structure and gave her sense that she could at least get that she put three square meals a day and a roof over her head while she was trying to pursue her career. That did not mean that she did not want to be in college. She just knew the College Experience that she had didnt seem to care. The school didnt even care that she was falling short in the other areas. Will i think we talk about 18 yearolds and thats what she was wanting all of this freedom and to go off and have nobody tell them what to do, i dont think theyre actually asking to be completely cut loose and shoved off a cliff and settled with an Economic Situation that puts them at risk. We are telling them to go to school and then resettling them in this way that it really does feel like up the trail. I think thats why put it in the title, we broken their trust. I think that think that something that strikes a cord with me all the time. A lot of public universities are also under resourced or in equitably resourced. If you go to a Different School the ratio of advisers to schools is much better than if you have an advisor and theyre trying to advise seven or 800 School Students and i have many problems. Can i ask you little digression, talk about your own story. When we talked about it you work through college, right . Guest yes. I went to an institution where my mother was an adjunct. For some reason those were the good old days and that meant that i got free tuition at that institution which is amazing. Thats thats a big discount. But my parents didnt have College Savings but in no way did their incomes we didnt even qualify for a. So i decided i would just work and i was lucky enough that working at a restaurant allowed me to pocket enough for tips and i was decent enough as a waitress that i can make ends meet by working 40 hours a week. Sometimes i was cocktail in her doing burgers or pancakes and units year but that, but i was able to do that. The price and the cost of living today are so much higher in the minimum wage is so sad im frankly the tip minimum wage has even gone town because he put tips on a credit card and so you have to pay taxes. But these things no longer add up. While i worked in college and you may have too, that is, that is not going to be the sustainable story. I think thats an important point to make. So many people say i worked through with no problem. But the world is not the same. The cost of rising education and cost of tuition. We are very reasonably priced tuition and even our students struggle. But at a lot of other public tax has been listed on tuition so that looks more like private tuition. And what you talked about first is that first year tuition so the Financial Aid package comes in and you say great. What happens the second year typically. So many schools are givings schools extra granted for the first year of college to get them to come. The family finds out in the second year that grant is not available. Intuition went up. So over time the college basically becomes more expensive with each year that you stay. Students are taken aback by that thats one thing that people need to know going in is that what youre given that first year of College Price tag is not going to be what youre gonna pay in the fourth year. One of the other misconceptions is the fact that the perception is out there that students are spending their financially dollars on fancy restaurants, going to bars, bars, and a luxury that you can imagine. Therefore they are not spending where it is meant to be. I want to read a quote. It struck me, the quote about buying black pants. Which is something uni, and i have grown children and Everybody Knows they need in an interview suit. I just want to quote this and have you talk about it. The quotas come i dont spend it on luxury items. I dont buy stuff that i just want. I actually never really have unless theres a need for it. Three weeks ago i went and got myself some nice black pants which you need for College Business for interviews. It is my only pair of black pants and i got a nice button up shirt because you need to look nice for interviews. Other than other than that it is just deuce for the sorority and stuff that if i need for class or college. I try not to buy food too much. I dont spend a lot on food but i do buy like some applesauce and milk. Just breakfast items. Just breakfast items. I have some snack items, hot chocolate, but no other. Thats it. I can get by without buying luxury items. Hot. Hot chocolate was a luxury item for this young woman. People with few resources which is who these Financial Aid recipients are, have learned for long time how to manage scarce resources. They dont throw things away. There are so many things being said about College Students that might apply to some people but they mainly apply to people whose parents are paying for college who are at elite private institutions where they have the luxury of going to the art museum, having a party are going on spring break. The vast majority of todays undergraduates dont do those things. The data. The data that is being used to paint that picture of those other folks have nothing to do with the data on the Financial Aid recipients. We do not see students spending things in frivolous ways. We did budget logs with them and know what they spend their time on. There are two things that were notable to me. One thing that is never asked about in studies of undergraduates is do you spend times cutting. They never asked do you spend time taking care of other people. We saw lots of people making that time investment. Even if they were working on a pay on a pay job they were working and caring for someone else. That was such an important thing. The other thing was far from being out partying or drinking with the money they are trying to help their families with it. So they were back home trying to make sure that moms bills were being paid. To. To make sure younger brothers and sisters were okay. These are not 30yearolds taking care of their own children. These were 18yearolds taking care of the families that help them get to college in the first place. That to me is another very important point. What you see is an expected family contribution. Talk about the negative financial contribution. I see it see it all the time at city college where i am at. I see students who are paying for helping their grandparents paying for medical costs, really using any money they have to try to get back. And you are not getting financial contribution from the parents because they cant afford it. It. Guest that expected financial Family Financial contribution is typically a fake number. It doesnt take into account one of the most important things in the familys financial resources, their debts. You might decide a family can contribute ask but it is completely ignoring the debt that family possesses. That might prevent them from doing so. In addition, people are working in high school to help their families. When they go off to college, even if it is down the street but they have to spend time at college, the family loses that income. That is that is how we can sometimes reach a negative family contribution. But no negative numbers are allowed in the federal system. So they put the number at zero and so you dont have to contribute anything but they dont say lets give money back to the family which is in fact what the students are doing with the resources. Its a present figure but so many people think at the statistical model and say it doesnt seem to matter very much when were predicting college completion. Well, thats because its a fake number and its inaccurate. An measurement error is a big deal. This is a number plagued with measurement air. Thats disturbing because its a big bureaucratic system. Tell me about that. Thats the thing the other students come in and they say fast for is easy to fill out and i think you need a phd to fill out before. Its a small bureaucratic tragedy. The thing is a mess. But theres. But theres a lot of attention for dealing with the fasfa. Im concerned about what happens after the fasfa. After that fasfa you find out you are not getting enough money and then you find out all of the extra rules. To actually keep your money from yeartoyear you have to do a bunch of things. One is that even if you stay at the same school you have to keep refiling the fasfa every year. Even if nothing has changed. And thats not easy because of the paperwork and ball. Another thing is you have to keep up with something called satisfactory academic progress. If we could explain it that would be great but every Single School has different rules what it means is the schools have students have to get certain grades and complete a certain amount of courses. If you go back to your own expresses in school when a class didnt turn out to be the way it would be in it was too hard, or the professor was terrible, you dropped it. Frankly if you wanted to get a grades up took easier classes too. The strategies will backfire if you are on Financial Aid. So its people doing normal things that most people doing college will cause them to lose their Financial Aid, and nasa price either taken aback. Host and worse and if you drop this course youre going to drop a lower level and if you drop a lower level your Financial Aid will go away. Sometimes they dont have a choice because do i get enough . Or a d when i have a dream to become something that if an d in will not help. Tell me about how your students in the study will debt with those. Guest they dealt with them badly and i dont blame them. Even as a faculty member who students now know that i know some of this stuff and i know it goes on so they bring me their cases. They say Say Something like my dad got sick and i miss school. I miss that class and i think i should drop it. Im aware of the potential consequences and so we weigh them. I can can help them navigate this. These things dont make sense. You should be able to drop a class if you need to without it hurting you too much. So we saw students who literally dropped below fulltime status and all of a sudden parttime pays half of fulltime pace but your Living Expenses are not have. So the whole whole formula for distributing the money is off base. But it usually did was cause them, over time to move slower through college. Thats the last thing you want to see. They were tied you spent in college, the more time it costs. If we want students to go faster we cant tell them to go faster, theyre not stupid. They would love to go faster. We dont set up the conditions under which they can go faster. That is to give them the support. I work at support. I work at Temple University now in one of our programs does something that in my study we actually found really worked. Pay students not to work. Students need money and so if they can get it from grants instead of through working then they can take more classes and work less a meritless distracted, they can spend more time at school. Host is that different than workstudy . Spee02 it is. Its an effort to help students finish in four years instead of five years by taking more classes. Workstudy is a Popular Program and i love saying that because so few programs are popular. Workstudy is the idea that we can provide you with work on your campus. The federal government actually provides the resources to pay for that. So many people take a poke grant recipient should get workstudy. No. In my study i described the trends over time and the utilization of workstudy money available to pell grant recipients in the Public Sector. Today less than one in ten pell grant recipients recipients nationwide who attends a Public College is allocated any workstudy funding. The max they can usually earn is about 2000. So its hard the solution unless we revise the program to create more resources for the people who are deemed eligible for them. And unless it really pays. Host i think that is the real challenge. The other thing about one of the people in your book talked about how 2400 was part of the workstudy and part of the formula but the person was never able to get the job which means the money goes away but that doesnt mean the cost goes away. Guest they call it magic money, mysterious money, or fake money. It shows up in your package and says that you have it but the next step is getting the job. A lot of places dont provide you with information on how to do that. One woman that we met when and said she wanted to work here and i have workstudy money. And she set up we dont take that. She wasnt given information and by the time she figure things out there was no workstudy positions left at her institution. This is a broken program that could be fixed and should be fixed. Host it is very interesting and very often universities leave money on the table. He talks about the disparity across wisconsin system in terms of how workstudy and monies are allocated. Can you talk about most because that me. I assumed that the median schools would get what they need but that didnt seem to be the case. Guest one of the basic premise of educational funding this country at least in theory is that the money should follow the knee. So if you have more students for lowincome at a school than the school should be getting more resources from the state so it can help those students graduate. In wisconsin and i suspect its true elsewhere, on average the state appropriation, meaning support is given to institutions, while it has to kind overtime on a First Student basis and has not declined at the same rate are in the same way for all institutions. In wisconsin were very segregated both by income and race ethnic city. In the city of milwaukee is where the concentration of people of color are. That is home to a one of the most troubled school systems. Yet the institutions there, there, the Public Sector gets far less resources than the institutions and the rest of the state thats are better off students. I. Out that uw milwaukee which has many pell grant recipients and lots of students of color gets less money are per student basis then uw madison who serve students who have wonderful High School Education and have every advantage in front of them. Host also many outofstate students at madison. Guest they are very different institutions. It doesnt make economic sense. To under resource the schools are educating the student will frankly be lost in todays economy if they dont get the grades. The milwaukee price for students to study was 19 higher than for students and the rest of the state. Yet they were lower income. Wow. And they try to make ans meat. Guest they try to make ends meet and a city that is struggling like so many others. Its lost its manufacturing base. Its struggling with poverty. Its struggling with poverty, struggling with violence and feeling ski school system. Yet it has all of these hardworking young people there who got the message that an education is a way to a better life theyre trying to do school. Host that also gets back to one of the things he talked about in your book was the fact that students tend to stay close to home their lowincome students. Theyre not in a themselves up and go to california. The issue of living at home, being viewed as much less expensive and having financially changes a function of whether the student is living on the campus or on at home. Can you talk about that. Most of my students at city college are commuters. We have won 600 bed Residence Hall. But most of them are in enough other subways and bus lines to get where they are living at home. Its not necessarily easier for them. Guest its a really popular recommendation for students who cant make ends meet. Live at home. So what you think is going to happen. First the financially system assumes they will face lower prices. In fact its actually legal first school to assume that the student pays a dime for rent, food, food, transportation. Most schools will give that living at home Student Money for transportation and assumed they have that expense. But lots of them assume that mom and dad take care of everything. This is incorrect. Again its very presumptuous. Very presumptuous. American families today across the border struggling. That includes a lot of the middle class. Families make the middle class. Families make ends meet together. By sharing resources. I think its a lovely tradition. Its a family thing to do. That means that student may very well be contributing to the rent and may be paying the rents. They might be living there with a Family Member to make it possible for them to have a roof over their head and theyre utilizing their Financial Aid money to make that happen. The school is tapping the amount of help they can get for financially by assuming they dont need anything. Host thats a tragedy in so many ways. The other thing im seen is that you said it puts enormous Mental Health stress on the student and the family situation. The parents want their children to get ahead and get a degree because i dont know what its like a milwaukee but i soon theyre not that many high paying jobs for students that dont have some kind of credential. Or even decent paying jobs. At the same time they need the help from their students and children to make ends meet. Can you talk about the Mental Health. There is one student in particular who was talking about he went out and was drinking and doing this and i happen to study high risk drinking and collegeage students and a lot is related to stress to figure out how to fit in and what the preconceived notions are. Mental health is a national issue. Can you talk about it from a low income student perspective. This is one of the things is that there would be a fax beyond the pocketbook i agree, Mental Health we know nationally is an issue. When we turn to look at it among students theres tremendous numbers that were depressed as they enter college. The situations. The situations they faced and not improve. The young man you mentioned is tyler, tyler wanted to play football school. Like so many people he found out that its not going to happen. He had a medical issue issue that prevented it after the first year. Like a lot of young men he didnt cope well. He was stressed out in the money wasnt coming together. He also just wanted to party. I thought it was important to share tyler story because there are people out there that are not making perhaps the best decisions but they are common decisions in the sense of what young people do at that time. He turned to alcohol to hide what was going on. He talked about the pain he was having that he had to live and his father spaceman with a curtain hung up to create a bedroom for him because they couldnt make ends meet. He kept crashing his car getting put in jail overnight and he said i wish i could stop this nonsense. I would have more Financial Aid and could hang onto the money. But the world has gone a bit upside down for him and for a lot of people. Families are struggling with the fact that they and fast and help their child be economically secure. It bears consequence not only for the student but also for the parents, even for the younger sibling to go, whats going to happen to me now. I thought this would work but joy went off and got nothing but debt. Why would i go to college. Those consequences, to college. Those consequences, will pay for that for a long time. The other thing that struck me was how many students turn to the forprofit sector to try to get a degree which is incredibly expensive. I have a hard time understanding what are the factors that would turn them from a public which would go to the forprofit that maybe they can help me out. Guest in many ways were pushing them there. Underfunding the Public Sector, the Community College in particular and not giving them the resources to do outreach to students. And to provide all the courses that the students need them. It leads the students to for profits which reach out there and get them. They make them feel wanted and they offer what they call aid which is really just loans. They bring them inches theres. Theres even federal policies out there like welfare reform that limit the number of things that count as an education. Those things are mainly delivered by the forprofit sector. Actually pushing people into debt by driving them to a sector that spends little money on instruction and a lot of money on advertising and recruitment. Theres a book coming out soon called lower ad. I. I think its in a port part of the story. Its why dealing with the Public Sector could do so much good for the country. Not only because the Public Sector would be more affordable but we could save some people from being diverted to the forprofit sector where they frequently end up with a worthless credential and debt. Host thats worrisome. The Public Sector they struggle. I know it is a struggle to get a worldclass education which i know we do to students on a daily basis, giving Everything Else echoes on. The other place, you dont mention it explicitly in the book but its an interesting thing that i keep seeing seeing is the use of distance education. To go online. Theres a a real place for online education, absolutely. But i wonder in low income students, they might have a computer but they have operating systems that are six versions older. Can you talk about that and if that intro place. That clearly is a place where people say, maybe that can help. And im sure part of it can happen. Guest we talk about good policies by understanding the problem and matching the policy solution to the problem. Distance educations mismatch. Online education is a great solution for me because i been thinking about taking additional courses in economics. Maybe i want to take those classes and i already have a phd, i know how to learn. I could easily do a timeline. Sounds really good. But for the students mainly coming out of situations where they have had very bad educational experiences, they need a teacher to sit with them and tailor the instruction and also in an interpersonal weight get to know them. How is a teacher going to note that the student is in eating or doesnt have a roof over their head if they never see them. How is the was student supposed to go online to do their coursework. Why would we be pushing this at a time time when more and more students who have the greatest needs are our demographics. Why would we push a solution that was so mismatched with that reality. Host thats interesting. I believe theres an important place for distant, online education. But that is one of the things that i think about. Very frequently students will talk to me about not having a quiet place to study. Or a quiet place where they can run their computer or if the computer its a single computer for the whole family. Theres a lot of competing needs guest sometimes there is a computer lab on campus and they look great but the lines are long. Anyone who has tried to get study and done with lot of students there is not the right way. Host its an interesting issue. You test upon upon food insecurity. Another said 2011 study where 40 of the students reported being food insecure, meaning they were not sure where or when their next meal was coming. We talk about the importance of Lunch Programs in k12. You can concentrate if youre hungry and have it in a few days. I think it was chloe talked about getting applesauce as snack foods. High sugar. So it gives you a little bit of a sugar high. But it is not the protein rich healthy food that nourishes the brain. Can he talk about that and the kind of gap between k12 and then 13 on. Guest we have a popular story to tell this country about how being in college means being on a ramen diet. Its getting in the way. We also say couch surfing is normal. Maybe dont know who you hang out with that night so maybe you sleep on this couch or another. These are stereotypes that are getting to be they are doing harm. What is happening as we are having students whose resources are insufficient and they are ending up not only on a ramen diet on a day to day basis but as you noted sometimes without a meal coming at all. This should not be surprising. We have growing poverty rate among children. The Child Poverty rate in this country is off the chart not getting better. The children are going to college and guess what, poverty does not disappear. What disappears is this a social safety net that we built up around them to make sure theyre able to learn in elementary, middle, and high school. We make sure they get milk in the morning when they show up for seventh or eighth grade. We make sure that we offer them at least some kind of lunch, even if it is pizza. They graduate from high school and show up in college and they are shocked to see that now they are being charged. Its not like food doesnt have value, they just say did you think i just became wealthy. I didnt. Im continuing my education and i continue to have these financial circumstances. And the limited Financial Aid youre giving me is going to cover tuition. And not eventful tuition. Same thing with transportation. The student in new york city who gets their subway covered with a metro card when theyre in high school. Very often and up in college and i have to give up the card. Theyre very confused and i think for good reason. It would be so straightforward to do a commonsense thing like expand National School Lunch Program into Higher Education so that we can make sure hunger doesnt get in the web diplomas. Host what youre talking about in our Community Colleges that a sap program which has been an amazing success for getting students through the college in a short period of time. Part of that is metro card send its proactive advising, ensuring the student is getting through Developmental Education quickly rather than having them stuck. These models exist. Im very proud because they have done very wonderful things with these models. How do we get those National Models out to the Greater Community . I think this is hard. Its not just not just learning about the models its having the money to do it. They sat Program Costs money, it pays up at a cost money. I want to say that i think the metro card part of that program is so important. I know we cant disentangle the effect of that part compared to the whole thing. If other colleges could at least take the lesson regarding the metro card and start to negotiate with local transportation agencies to try to figure out how to start with that, even if it just means they open a food pantry, even if it means they create emergency housing other campus. What i think would be helpful is to start with practices and policies in place that at least recognize these things are happening. Youre not going to be able to solve everything overnight, nobody does. But right now theres too many campuses that are assuming that because someone gets Financial Aid, they are okay. They are not okay. Thats why said this was a wakeup call. Students know it, this is the reality, its time for everybody else was in charge to know it and do something about it. Did the students in wisconsin in madison fare any better than the students in milwaukee if you look in the same demographics . To some extent. Its hard to say that because the students who get into uw madison start off with more academic preparation, but but also even appel recipient is at uw madison comes from a higher income bracket then the student at the other schools. So they already start with different advantages. The other major advantage they have is the far greater Resources Available at uw madison. So the counselor ratio, the things that are available to them so they can ask questions. That is more widely available. Its also more widely available because theres fewer students with financial need. At the same time, sending more students to selective institutions is not a solution to the problem. Those institutions are by definition selective and therefore will never take everyone. We need to really build the support of the sport were ordinary americans will continue to go to college. We need to make sure those places with privilege to begin with including those who get to keep out lowincome people, that they dont hog all of the money. This is important thing. I think we have an inequitable system of Higher Education financing. It goes beyond what we are currently talking about. Its an interesting dilemma you have because when youre in these crowded schools truthfully theyre very crowded because i have seen some of the schools you have 26,000 students and running seven days a week a week all hours of the day and night. It is hard to get enough staff and administration to be able to serve the number of students and the needs that the students have. You saw that in milwaukee as well. Can you tell me about the Technical University versus milwaukee. How do students choose one versus the other. Let me Say Something about the resource issue. Theres a lot of people concerned that if we create policies that create more people to go to the Public Sector this will be bad for lowincome students because theyll have a low quality experience. Kind of like what happened when they open the doors a few years ago and they were quite ready for it. If we make a policy that lowers the price for students theres going to be more resources at the table to expand. The Public Sector has shown over and over so thats essential. The question of the Technical College is that its a lot like a Community College. They have a system in wisconsin are two types of colleges. When they have to choose between the university of wisconsin milwaukee and the milwaukee Technical College it was a matter price. The university of wisconsin milwaukee is the most expensive Public Institution in the state because it gets the least resources from the state. It is not like milwaukee area colleges that less expensive. When youre somebody who makes a thousand dollars and you like you do start choosing based on those things. Ive met a lot of folks at the college who werent sure they are a college material, but i recognized that there is an imperative to be there. Its great to see that at the same time some of the students are one step from living on the street. Some are sleeping on the cars. Their faculty their faculty are reaching into their own pocket to pay for things for students. That doesnt happen nearly as often. It happens sometimes but when that is happening on such a frequent basis that is not a personal problem of an individual student. But the policy issue. We have to do what it takes to make facts stop. Ive seen that at city college two. Faculty, i have a fabulous faculty and its not uncommon for the them to get helped out there metro cards. Or if they dont have enough money they will take the subway down and give stuff to the student. Theyll be available on a saturday because theyre so dedicated to teaching the student body at student population. This issue is a generational issue. When we see one student truly succeed it changes. I love how Mission Driven those faculty are. We use this word faculty or professor in each institution as if its the same job. Im not doing my colleagues are not doing the same job that the professors at Yellen Harvard are doing. Im sure if you have had to reach into their pockets, but i hardly but i hardly think it comes out very often. This is so important. When that professor does it they probably do because it helps enhance that relationship between educator and student just to show them that you see them and you care. Recently i was thinking that i cant take this anymore, so many are going hungry. Enough with enough with the talk we have to act. Were created a fund which is about faculty and students together and getting money out. The point is i am distributing distributing emergency aid directly to faculty rather than college administrator. The faculty have been empowered to give it out as they see fit. The reason for that is they are the frontline workers in the classroom. Lets be be honest most are not making very much money. The fact that they are the reaching in their pocket. These are often time faculty who are having time trouble feeding their own families. Theres something about that were trying this new approach. Frankly i created a nonprofit with a couple of other women and put it on my website because enough. Im writing about it, i see it. Im trying to shape social policy but in the meantime i was walking down the street in philadelphia just the other day and i tripped over a woman. Literally i almost tripped i stumbled. And i set sat down to talk because i saw her side, graduate student at rectors, homeless. Im getting ready to talk to you and im tripping over a homeless woman who is trying to pursue a phd. Something is so wrong. We have to open our eyes. To me that is what i loved about this book. Host it really to go against the tide of what the normal opinions and stereotypes are of low income students or any students. They get squeezed in some ways another ways they dont have the financial wherewithal to get into the system but not enough to get the aid the students knee. But to me its all about the student success. How do we get from here to there. Talk to me about robert. He came from the United Nations and he had an interesting story which talks about the influence and the importance of it truly does take a village to get students through. Guest that is one of those folks that he made me so hopeful and the reason was because no bert, like you said he grew up on a reservation and the they wanted to do something which is not all that common, they provide very generous College Scholarships are for the few folks who managed to get to college. He was very lucky. He. He was one of the only students we saw who was able to go to a fouryear institution and pay virtually nothing. Was almost entirely covered by his scholarship. That mattered. What also mattered, because sometimes he would still run short of funds. But but also mattered was his mom say we really struggled to get you here. She worked as a hotel made. He sometimes did to to help out. She said we have been working and saving for years. You are not working during your first year of college, no matter what because you need to get your grades established and get on your path. And he listened to her. Whenever he faced difficult decision in college he started to take on a job eventually and things like that, he returned to his Family Members into his aunt who went to college and check in with them for advice and support. They uniformly stood with him. That turned out to be so important. At the end of the day up afraid somebody would look at him and said that the student of color and he was lucky because they get all the scholarships. No. No. Nobody gave anything away to norbert. He gave crop and a rough situation and the people who made it possible for him was that the federal government. The Community Stood together and invested saying that we cannot afford to go to college if we could get there. We together will make that investment to pay for it. No bert finished college and is gainfully employed. He is is going to go back to the reservation now and be a contributing member of society. Thats the power of not just saying we are going to leave it all up and take our chances, let the individual pay for. Lets fight for it one by one. Thats the Current System and it doesnt work that has policy implications. Host how do we engage communities in that struggle . I have seen that there is a woman who talked about the first in her tribe to go to college. Her parents were at the graduation, it was the most heartwarming, amazing experience because what you see is when she got back and got that degree all of a sudden her cousins were attending college. It shifted a generation. The one college degree, sometimes we tend to think its an individual, how nice. We dont understand the implications that it shifts an entire generation of men and women. So there have been scholars have traced the effects of the g. I. Bill. What happened to that generation , because they got educated in a way that they cannot afford. Theres even a a wonderful study of what happened to the women who are educated in the early 19 seventies. They tracked them for 30 years. They tracked the effects on the children. It lifted them up. We have to stop thinking of college is primarily an individual benefit. It isnt. Its primarily an economist will tell you, you dont know this. While we dont know it because we dont collect data on it. You dont ask and you dont know what you dont want to ask about. The social benefits are so substantial that we need to shift the funding that direction. These are things we cannot afford to not fond. These. These are benefits that will pay off across generations. Who would deny child the opportunity to go to college . Could . Could you look a child in the eye and say its not for you. No, you tell them you can that their little is only when their bigger that you start telling them to not cut out for it or we can afford to pay for it. We have to double down, the same way we did when we made high schools free. Its hard for a community to imagine what it would look like if people stopped their education after elementary school. And we use to. Host my grandmother, when i said to my father how many grades to grandma do and he laughed at me. She said i dont know is seven years old she was sent to work in the factories and my other grandmother was illiterate. You have college, you have a woman, and the granddaughter of these two incredible woman. I signed my name is a as a president of a college instead of annettes. Thats what we need to get to. Your book highlighted it. Tell me about why future studies studies are. Im excited to see where you want to go from here. Guest there something i came to understand and doing this research that i did not know when i started. There are other programs out there to support low income people. They are not as good as they used to be. But a lot of students were facing difficult are facing other bureaucracy. Its not working together. Partly because they seem to assume that if you are from a poor family poor family you not get to college. So what i want to work on next is addressing those living costs. Starting to align our systems and social policies. For example we know immigration policy and legal policy, housing policy, theres housing policy that discourage people from being fulltime College Students. Policies to get food stamps while in college you have to work 20 hours per week. That does not align with the goal of helping students finish college. How do we bridge these things . How do . How do we create a system where people are better trained to serve the whole student, to know something about poverty and how to manage in case manage. How do we create a system that acknowledges that college is no more going off and living in a Residence Hall going to parties on the weekend experience. Its hard work. Its taken over the lives of so many. I want to figure out the best ways to do that. Host this has been such a fun conversation. Your work is amazing. I really want to thank you because the work that you do can have such tremendous impact and its just important work to be done because its so easy to marginalize people who dont succeed. And think its their own fault that they did not succeed. Really, thank you. Is phenomenal. Guest i absolutely love doing this work. Im glad i was allowed to write a book and release a book like this and talk about it with people like you. Host i know you have Young Children growing up, it is their world that youre getting into. Guest we want to make a better future. Lester that together. Host thank you again so much, this was just absolutely wonderful thanks for being here. And best of success on your next book. I cant wait to read it. Its going to be another change making book. Guest i hope so. Host thank you. [inaudible] on election day, november 8 the nation decides our next president and which Party Controls the house and senate. Stay with cspan for coverage of the president ial race including Campaign Stops and follow key house and senate races with their coverage of their candidate debates and speeches. Cspan, where history unfolds daily. This is book tv on cspan two. Television for serious readers. Heres our primetime lineup. Starting shortly, Hillsdale College professor bradley describes the life of russell kirk. The goldwater institute, timothy examines the difference between rights and privileges at 7 30 p. M. And columbia law professor tim provides an indepth look at the history of advertising and its current uses nonbook tvs afterwards program at 9 00 p. M. Eastern. At ten p. M. , a look at the future of robotics with robin hansen. The author of the age of am. We wrap at sunday lineup at 11 00 p. M. Was susan. She talks about the relationship between first Lady Eleanor Roosevelt and Associated Press reporter llerena heacock. First up, heres bradley