I like it very much. I learned a lot about this book. I learned a lot of things about the polic Police Department i dt know after 21 years. And well talk about a lot of great things in the book but one of the biggest thing i got out of the book was theirs this rumor that the feds are always taken to nypd cases come and you really explained that a lot and so that something that i really took away from your book, that the feds do not always take down these cases in the nypd and internal affairs actually does work. So lets just get right into it. Before we get into it, i really truly believe that every cop should have this book. Not only of the cockpit its probably worth for the business will also because you talk about integrity. Its a big issue all around, especially with police. Police, we have a lot of power. We are around money, around drugs, guns and corruption can be afoot. So this is a great book. Just a regular citizen but that, its the second best book ive read this year. The second best. You probably could guess which one is the best. Guest i think the book you wrote. Host lets just get right into it. Ive a few questions. In the prologue you talk about this case where you guys, the teen, yellow was following this guy, a copier he was dirty. He was going to make a pickup up in Washington Heights and when he gets to wash tonight, he has a bag. This young thug as you describe drives him to take me to get the money or whatever it was. Its a rapper named young thug. I know you dont listen to rap but thats a thats always out there in policing. People always say that guy is a young thug. Why would you describe that . What you pacify as a young thug . It doesnt have to be racial. Thats the term that is commonly used. Guest in this particular case this individual was not only a look at what he was the muscle. He was the doorman and he controlled entry and exit from this building. So instead of being a regular security person, this guy was making sure that the police were not getting anywhere near the apartment, or in some cases as weve seen, other people are coming to steal from the drug dealers. Host right, okay. Something very interesting used it in the book, and im quoting, bad cops are seldom bad cops. Just one. Please explain. Guest okay. As you know in social science the something called the slippery slope theory. Where at least the premises is that if you do something wrong, and its minor, it will gradually grow into something more serious. When someone makes the decision to commit a crime as a Police Officer, stealing, using Excessive Force, involvement with drug dealers, you come very rarely especially the kitchen its the very first time they had been involved. What i would like to say and usher you will echo this is that the overwhelming vast majority of the nypd officers dedicated, hardworking men and women doing what of the toughest jobs in the country. Good people. But its that small percentage that less than one half of 1 who are corrupt, who are brutal, who are bad cops. Host were going to get to that. Guest its a fat percent that steals the headlines away from the good cops. Host yes. You talk about that were going to get back to that. But how often falsely wrote, how often did internal affairs turned cops migrated cops who became criminals, and once you guys grabbed them, they flipped . How often did a flip . I know that like cops dont want to rap of the cops out. But you are catching cops a committed some serious crimes. How often with a flip to like wear a wire or rat their fellow cops out . Guest it doesnt happen as often as it should come as often as it could but it does happen from time to time. A lot of it has to do with how deeply involved the officer is. Unfortunately sometimes the worst of the lot is the first one that gets arrested and they are the first one willing to talk. So we use every method we can, good solid investigative techniques like flipping people, like using bad cops and put them back out there using them as our agents and our informants. So yes, we do it, but it probably doesnt happen as often as it could happen. Host earlier in your career, and you did 41 years. Guest yes, i did suspect you know i am only 388, right . Guest that makes me feel much better. Host 4 41 years. Early in your career what i got out of the book is that you are straight as an arrow right from the top. What particular case that i applaud you for is one is when you and your partner or chasing a young kid that you say burglarized a place, you caught illegally with the bag. You guys have all the equipment on, your gun fell, your best in everything and he was a giving young kid. He was turned up on you and your partner got into a crouching statement was read to shoot improvement in the back i guess and you stopped apartment said we cant do that. I applaud you for taking that. This was in the 70s. Serpico, just corruption everywhere. I really applaud you for that. How did you feel after you did that . Guest i didnt want that young man to be hurt for what he did. There was no justification for using that level of force on that young man. He was out running us. Thats the name of the game. Good for him. Cops and robbers. Good for him. He was running away. I would give me eventually but i just couldnt allow him to be shot running away from us. Host i believe you guys still caught them if i remember. Guest yes, we did. He runs into an abandoned building. This building, he dropped the bag. He had a garbage bag full of supplies out of a beauty parlor. Nothing expensive, hair dryers, clock radio, brushes, some cosmetics, things of that nature. Once you drop the bag he was not good to be copier he was a young man. He was running very fast but we saw him run into one of the abandoned buildings and we were eventually able to catch them in the building tiedyed under some debris and on a broken door. Host thats great. I mean, not too many cops will take that stand. We both were cops. You know that most cops want to fit in. You dont want to rock the boat if this is the way things are going. Actually when i read your book, i was actually like really straight in my career, very, very straight. I had this image that people thought i was doing it. When im reading a book unlike wow, chief is just like me, so straight to which leads me to one of the finest part of your book, the cup of tea that you pay ten dollars for. It was one dollar. Let me set this up. Its really hard for me to believe that 40 years, even in a 70 candidates and 90 you didnt take one cup of coffee . Not take, but just this is what used to happen to be. I was scared. Mine was an early 90s. I worked in the morning, and i would go purchase anyone to give you stuff. And i was so scared because im a rookie im nervous. I would say give me my dollar. At least two before quarter. Make this look like there was an exchange and i would do what you do. Just leave the dollar when it went out of the store. You did that quite often . Guest i did. And if the place wouldnt take my money i wouldnt go back again. I did what an investment and it did want to embarrass anybody else. When this happened coffee and tea was about ten cents. I bought tea for myself and copyright partner. As you know, you take turns buying. I didnt have any change. The man was adamant i just left a doll and walked out. Host and he became a running joke in decreased income right traffic why would you spend a dollar for a tencent cup of tea . Host funny stuff. The book is authentic for the people, its very authentic and all of these stories i can relate to. Theres been a tremendous amount of distrust between the Minority Committee and police in the last three years, and this goes back to something you were saying. Used in your experience, your estimation is that less than half of 1 of cops are bad. Just explain a little further for the people who are watching. Guest i spent 41 years in the nypd. I saw acts of courage, bravery, integrity. But theres always that small number of cops who keeps you up at night. When is a precinct commander everyone knew the person, maybe two, that you didnt trust and the other officers didnt trust him or her either. What i did when i went to internal affairs is i brought the Committee Officers on board and we would meet with them on a regular basis. I would ask them questions like who in your command are you a little concerned about . Who in your command keeps you up at night . We will do an investigation for you, maybe an integrity test to make sure we want to talk about that later. We will not put a kissinger commits a some commanders are worried if theres too cases against my command. They will think im not doing a good job. We always told them if youre part of the investigatory team, if you work with us, you will come out of this looking well, not dean criticized. So i always look for that person. Person. The other cops are willing to tell you if youre willing to listen who they stay way from, who they dont want to work with. Host we would get back to that but thats the case of really bothered me, Everybody Knows who the hot areas. Corporate america, you know this guy is of the dead weight. I dont want to work with that guy. But in policing it so much more because its taking lives. Guest you have to be able to come forward, stand up. And sometimes i stop my partner that time and it wasnt easy for me in the beginning. The good thing was that my reputation was that i wasnt a bad cop. So they came to me and they said tell us what really happened. So thats good, if you have a good reputation they will come and listen to your side of the street. They may not believe you but they will give you an opportunity to talk. Host in the last 25 years, dramatic decrease in crime in nypd, you know, takes a lot of credit, and rightfully so. Things have changed from 42nd 4d street to what it is today. You dramatically dropped corruption at nypd. I have to give you the credit. I know that you did. From reading the book, you really explained it. Do you think theres a direct correlation between the drop in corruption to decrease in crime . That something of think about when i was reading a book. Guest like to think so but the truth of the matter is when we were first starting internal Affairs Bureau, back in 1993, we looked and we saw that for the most part internal affairs around the world was conducted very, very reactively. Citizen makes a complaint, resources are put to investigate the complaint. But it really had very little effect on corruption and the love of complaints we were getting. So we change our focus. We were reacted. We always were reactivated we would take in place of but we decided that in order to be effective we needed to be proactive. I think that proactive internal investigations is what set us apart from the other Police Departments. And also was mainly responsible for the reduction in corruption. Im not ready to take credit for the reduction in crime. Host im going to give it to you. Guest id like to put credit were i think it belongs, on the men and women in the nypd come as highranking members we would like to stand up when crime goes down and say its our policies and procedures but its the man and woman on the street who makes it work. Host definitely. Crack was over, you know, we got closer to the committee, people were giving us more information but the brunt of the credit goes to the nypd. 1970, youre working in brownsville, the 73 precinct. I never even knew that it was called for c. Thats the old name. Thats just think about this. It was one of the most violent places in the city in new york in the 70s. Fast forward now years later and i was Commanding Officer which encompasses all the Housing Developers in brownsville. As we stated today my estimation is browser is the most vital place in the city of new york. I actually believe that. When do you think the Police Department is actually going to read that place of crime . Guest i worked there for a number of years and there were so many good honest people there, people that i tried to help the best i could. Its cyclical, and as new york city is changing and we seek in other parts of brooklyn, its just a matter of time before they are going to discover that brownsville is the next hot spot of people are going to get in and he will make the changes with the Police Department, with city government, with State Government to start to turn that place around. Host i believe that is probably the only place that hasnt turned yet. Guest just a matter of time. It will get there. Host all those housing developments. Good, great. Now, when you are on vacation with your wife, someone approaches you that you arrested before. I had the exact same experience, only thing it was in jamaica. Guest mine was in the virgin islands. Host and they did not do what you did. I kind of like he knew who i was, but what stood out to me is relationships are everything and i always tell the cops, the game is over. That means that you build relationships, you really was doing the right thing because you can see this guy in the virgin islands. It could be a problem, but because of the relationship that you had with your prisoners, sounds like you would a close relationship, but i gather you treated them all with respect once the bracelets were on. Guest absolutely. I never hit a prisoner. I never stood by one, let anyone else had a prisoner. In this particular case this young man was locked in his cell for a couple of hours. It was during the blackout. Was during, writing going on and we couldnt have been as accommodating as we wanted to be. Host i remember, i was a kid when the blackout happened to him but you really describe exactly what everybody talked about. Guest it was a chaotic scene, and all this young man wanted was go to the bathroom and have a drink of water. How could i deny someone that . In good faith how could i deny someone that . Host a lot of cops would deny a guy to go to the bathroom. You also talked about what me and you know anybody in Law Enforcement is the hook. I was so happy to read that you said the hook is alive and well. Why do we explain to the people what the hook is . Basically if you know somebody, they will be able to put your places. Corruption is just hey, if i work mcdonalds and i was a ceo, and if you want a job, i would want to put them on french fries are probably try to prove them to be the manager. Thats just what the hook is. Host and. Guest . Nothing corrupt. People who know, new Police Officers sometimes they steer them in the right direction, put them in commands that are more favorable, commands what easier for them to commute back and forth, commands that are better suited for a younger officer. Host right ticket wasnt suited for the guy that was doing the corruption in the book where you sent him from Staten Island all the way to the bronx. Guest theres something called highway therapy. [laughing] guest its not use often but sometimes its a way of getting a very strong message across that you are here to do a job because thats what you get paid for, do your job. Host exactly. Now, you talk about something that bothers you was go away money. And the go away money is, basically the lawsuit against the city of new york, the Police Department and the city just tws hey, lets just settle this lawsuit. 10,000, 20,000. Lets go to like 1999. Remember, 1997 i believe, a National Organization of latinos office association. They had a lawsuit, discrimination, working conditions, miners were being severely punished other than more harsher than other people. And cases of disciplinary action. They settled the suit for 27 million. Do you think that was hush money . Guest well, heres the way the attorneys describe it and i opposed to it from day one. If you done something wrong, you have to make amends. My mother told me that when i was a child. But if you write you need to defend yourself and fight. And a lot of these cases the attorneys would come and say this suit, we would do a cost and also to weaken when this but it will cost us 100,000 in legal fees, court time, et cetera. But if we give the person 10,000, they will go away and the city saved 90,000. What i think it does, that just encourages more lawsuits. People will say our case isnt strong, our case may not even be winnable, but if we sell maybe it will give us go away money. They will give us money and we have made money. The city says weve done nothing wrong. Th. The individual officer says e or she did nothing wrong. But they are encouraging lawsuits in my opinion. If you are right, then you need to stand up and fight. Host right. Mike dowd, the infamous mike dowd. You speak about the mike dowd, i believe you said, do you believe that there were other mics audit that time . Its hard for me to believe that he was the only person that was robbing drug use and everything way back then. There had to be more. Guest it had to be more. Host why dont you think the Police Department after these guys . Guest remember, back then you had the internal Affairs Division, which was an outgrowth from the commission. They were geared to handle what at the time was now found systemic corruption within the Police Department. A very reactive approach. What they did was they didnt go as corruption grows. Corruption mutates, and at least and micah icing corruption go from systemic to opportunistic to now familiar. Familiar corruption, thats the most difficult to detect and to prosecute. So as corruption was mutating from the systemic corruption, systemic means it goes up and down the entire organization. You find it laterally placed vertically within the organization. That was basically eliminated. And today im happy to say i saw in my time, i saw no signs of systemic corruption. Host i agree. Guest but optimistic corruption began to grow. That is much more difficult to investigate easygoing to be reactive. The old internal Affairs Division did not grow, did not evolve as corruption was mutating. They tried to do the old things over and over again, and they were ineffective. And corruption was allowed to floors, not on purpose but because they just didnt do it correctly. Host now, when you took over, i love that you say, Police Commissioner ray kelly called into his office and basically stuck this iab write down your throat and said listen, i need you, it doesnt matter. People dont understand. When the boss tells you to go summer, you just say yes sir. If you say anything other than, you probably, your career probably would just be stagnant. So he gives you this. But the thing i got out of this, who came up, i want to know, i couldnt catch in the book, who came up with a twoyear rotation . Was that you are ray kelly . Guest that was part of the plan. What we did is we did focus groups. Host explained to the people what the twoyear commitment is. Guest the twoyear commitment was you come into iab, draft, they drafted, no volunteers. You could no longer volunteered to become an iab member. You are draft pick some people said kidnapped and shanghaied, but host my cop she to go crazy. No one want to fill out an application because you guys guest we would look at the most talented people, people with the best reputation, people with the best records, people who have proven their worth to the Police Department. So we did these focus groups and without out that the opinion of the old internal Affairs Division, right, wrong or indifferent was not a very favorable. That they were either cowards, afraid to be real cops so they went to internal affairs and hid. Or they were rats or fees. People got caught doing bad things and in exchange for leniency would wrap up of the cops, or they were zealous. People want to try to change the world and really dont know how they want to do it but they know that to change the world. I dont know if that was true or not, but thats what the cops believed. So we got together and we were putting together the new internal Affairs Bureau and we said we cant let People Volunteer because they are not well thought of. We will have to change that. We are going to it a draft, only bring people in who are respected, known in a high quality investigators and supervisors. And to make it more palatable we said it should be a minimum of twoyear commitment. Looking back on it now i probably would change that. I probably would make it a threeyear commitment it because by the time i had those investigators up and running at top speed, there two years were up and youre looking to move on. Cyber change it if i could. If i can go back an in time i wd change that to three years. But it change the perception. No longer with accountant brats but they were respected most of the Police Department who come when a twoyear commitment was up, can rotate back into policing and be accepted by the rankandfile Police Officers. Host i mean, that was ingenious. That was a good idea. I know the guys came kicking and screaming. But after a while they pretty much content because they had no choice. You are here, you might as well make the best of it. Guest be the profession we know you are. Host right. Do you think it should be compromise a former officer of people with Law Enforcement experience. Out of the 500 cases you mention, only one but 2 are substantiated. Theres like two sides. For me cops, giving you the lehmans, go to cc lb. And these guys, just graduated out of college. They dont have no place explained. They dont know what to do with no family dispute but when they get spat on. So do you believe that some of the investigators should have higher background a lawenforcement . Guest in the newark city Police Department cc rd was a by unit come the investigators were seasoned detectives and police personnel. The managers of the case and the civilian Complaint Review board are all civilian promise of the members of the community. I think that balance really worked well. When you decided to completely civilian eyes it, they had people who wellmeaning, intelligent people but didnt understand police work. I think i was a detriment to them. Host yeah, because like some of the dispositions that come back, its just guest completely unprosecutable. They come come back with decisions that were completely un prosecutable. Host you also write, so i had a partner, let me give you some background. I had a part nevermind his name but he was in a registry kine original street crime. He had a zero ccrb. You wrote just like the cop, he is a topic i know hes a cop because you said that more arrests you may, the higher probability of sabine complaint. Which i dont necessarily agree with all of the veterans was like, no, this could not have happened. Mention those cops should never happen been assigned to the unit in the first place. Diallo is in the stairwell. The vestibule. So you talk about it in great detail and i remember the first day watching the trial, and the defense lawyer was breaking it down and i was like, wow, this with bell will be an acquittal. Its shot number one, his mindset, the trajectory, what his partner was seeing. You broke that down really nice. Somebody wants to know about the diallo shooting, you broke it down. But what i didnt see in that was they brought that unit up three times. I believe the commander, he left, after Rudy Giuliani he wanted 400 cops. So kind of loads the standards. The original street crime, couldnt have a shooting, no civilian complaints and on this night we got four cops and you broke it down, three of them had shooters, all of them except for one had civilian complaints, and theres no supervisor around. Do you think that lower the standards caused this shooter . Guest im not so sure it caused the shooting. Contribute. Guest wouldnt say lowering the standards. Would say maybe we should have been a little more circumspect before we put four our officers ought wife training and seasoning, maybe work withmer experienced officers. Perhaps we went a little fast and should have done more, especially putting four officers together, but here we have mr. Diallo, an innocent man, unarmed man, and did nothing wrong, trying to get into this house. Terrible, terrible tragedy, but a series a series of errors that just compounded one another and to the point where, when a day is over we have five lives, damaged and we have five family changed forever. Host forever. Guest and not for the good. Host right. You state in the book, as a young cop you never you spoke earlier, never used Excessive Force to affect an arrest but you now it was happening. Stat stood out to me. My question was, did you report it. Guest if i saw people using Excessive Force i stopped it. Host but you didnt report cincinnati my friend romeo using that name very loosely i reported him to the supervisor. Host you didnt articulate that in the book. Im glad we able to have this interview so you can clarify that sunny told the sergeant, this person will be a problem, and prophetically, unfortunately, he was fired from the nypd for just the acts i knew he was doing. Host wow. Remember one of hi my first arrests i had a guy cuffed and two guys roll up and started beating on him. Told the sergeant, thats just beat the guy up. Thats what standup cops do. Guest have to bring it forward. You said before, if you didnt reported, you dont know if i called iab or not. Host anonymously. Why do you think the department didnt fire the officer who says he accidentally shot and killed terrence standberg, we fast forward, the asia cop, the same case. Guest cases are very similar. Host very similar. Guest decisions are probably different. I think that were both tragic mistakes. Agreed. Guest i think the problem with the second case was because they didnt report it quickly. It was information that they well, number onedidnt believe they hit anyone. There was a series of ricochets but didnt want to report the accidental discharge until they found out the man was shot and then made the report. Host the neary case he called it. Guest from the very beginning. Was there little bit of i accidentally fired my gun, nobody was hurt, let not tell anybody, and i then the found out the man was hurt and had no choice but to tell them. Host the covered with the tba. Guest they should have went forward and then unfortunately the man shot and killed. Host very tragic. The eric garner case. You write in the book that pantaleo allegedly used a choke hold. Do you not believe that was choke hold. Guest what i saw on the television the eric garner case comes in after i am gone. I didnt investigate that case. Host okay. Guest all i have is what the general public has, a picture, the videos they showed on television. There was several videos that never made it to television. Since i was gone i wasnt privy to them. If you look at it, originally looks like a wrestling move. Called a half nelson. Wasnt a regular chokehole per se. As it progresses it get worse but original my when they take him town, not chokehold at that point. Host thats the pba said the press conference, trying to articulate it was a jujitsu move. Guest i dont know about that. Host i know the general public, when somebody puts the arm around your neck and squeeze, its like, youre checking me knife you look at it carefully, the arm of the officer im not saying i was justified cut but the arm comes under the man and now he guess to his head, and so its not a chokehold, not an arm bar chokehold. And i prosecuted the baez case, clear chokehold. In the branches. Host lets talk about the narcotics scandal. Big scandal. Brooklyn south. Theyre paying pretty much paying drug dealers of track heads with money and drugsful you do the until you find out about the whole case and what you wrote on there, which i knew and the public doesnt know, the top three commanders were relieved of duties. Guest yes, they were. Host yes. But one of. The is now the Police Commissioner of the city of new york. Guest when with dead the case there was no did the case there was information the commanders were involved. Host i know as an executive you are holding the bag. Guest if youre the boss, something goes wrong, its your bag to hold. Host yeah. So actually, i believe in the nypd. People believe that cops and the executives believed that commissioner oneill paid a long debt for that case, and actually now hes coming back. Probably where he should be after being on ice for so long. Guest doing a fabulous job. Really is. Host doing a good job. Just wanted to put that out there so that people know. For cops, you can be part of something but bounce back. Guest oh, yes. Unless you are participant. Host right. Guest if youre a commander, you are given another opportunity. If we cant schopf cant show you were complicit and something you should have known, you suffer the consequences. Host exactly. Now, the ccrb. You talk about how theres outside entities that see the new york city Police Department, the u. S. Attorney, seven other entities. Guest so many host so many people. Guest bumping into each other. Right. So many units looking out but you talk about the ccrb, the separate entity, as well as the Deputy Commissioner trout, but the Deputy Commissioner trial is appointed by the commission, are right. Yes. Or she. Host and ccrb, the mayor appoints five of them. They are arent they like kind of part of the nypd . Guest well. In a sense . Guest not theyre completely independent. Ccrb does not a take its direction from the Police Department, and the trial commission, although appoint by the police commission, when he or some makes the does, if the Police Commissioner disagree aid not matter of saying i disagree and im going to ignore it. He has to go and explain in writing why he is overturning the trial commissioners decision. Host is there an appeal from the Police Commissioners decision and if there is, who do you mets to you appeals to. He says hes get and you want to appeal. Guest you can go to court, new york state or federal court. Host as a commander guys would be found guilty in the trial room and everybody wants to appeal, and the patrol guy, he is the last word. Guest but there is also state and federal court. Host right. The wayman incident. Guest more horrific thing i have had to do. Host yes. That is what i was talking about. A 40 year veteran like yourself. Dont know anybody that thought i was a young cop, and every job i went to obviously the persons are the saying, going to stick your stick inside me . A tough time for the nypd at that time. Really tough time for us. You talk about that case and i learned a lot. You guys was on it early on. Guest we had the case on sunday. Host yes, but you did not leak it. Why . Why let the news leak it before you guys . It made the public think the nypd was trying to hide this thing. Guest well, this is heres the problem. Intern investigations are usually very secretive by nature and we dont have the opportunity to stand up before a press conference and explain to them what we know happened, what we believe happened, and talk about our investigative steps because were going to have to bring this case to a grand jury, whether its in the state court or federal court we did it twice in the case, first in state court and then had to do it again in the federal court. We dont have that opportunity and theres no prosecutor in the world would want his or her case being discussed with the media while in the developmental stages so you have to keep that quiet because maybe we want to take a run at someone, or we know you were working that night. We may sneak up on you one day and say, we know you were working that night. Well give you an opportunity to talk, give you an opportunity to clear yourself in this juncture. So we dont want to host how many days before the news guest we were on it sunday. This news doesnt hit the papers until wednesday. Host you was pretty pissed the spannedster, the detective dropped the ball when the nurse first called. You just created this command center, detectives are trained, and any call comes in, i dont care, keep them on the line and log that, and that night somebody doesnt come to work and you have to fly somebody in that doesnt have the agreement. The nurse says she believes something happen. Guest he makes a rookie mistake but he is a rookie on the command. An investigator, who should have known better, certainly had enough experience and training not to make that mistake, but first night there, he gets a call, she is trying to be coy. She says at first that she is mr. We americas wife but mispronounces his name two or three times. He says, lady, dont nowow in the name of her husband. And she said let me call you back, and thats where he made the first mistake, call me back. Never let the person off the phone if you can. And then anticipating her callback, he never says anything to his supervisor. So he compounds if mistake. Host was he disciplined . Guest yes, absolutely. Host that was one of my questions. Guest absolutely. And some people may think very hashly because he just bun goaled a phone call but the consequences are serious. Host that wasnt the regular phone call. The worst phone call you can imagine. Guest thats correct but some of his supporters were saying the man made a mistake on the phone call and thats what he union argued the Department Trial but the consequences were far greater than just a phone call. Host the blue wall of silence inch my opinion, after 21 years, dont really believe its as big as people want to believe. Guest i agree with you iwant your opinion on the blue wall. Even as a commander i bring guys in. Theyre writing everybody up but the public believes theres this big blue wall. Guest heres the thing. Does the blue wall of silence exist . Yes but its not insurmountable and not as big as the public would like to believe. Heres the question for you. What makes you think that walls are i silent only in the Police Profession . Its in every precision. We had a case where there was a firefighter, got into fight with another firefighter in a firehouse hitch was hit with a chair. Very severely injured. The fire department, the works, not the department itself, they cleaned up the crime scene, they took him to the hospital and said, he fell off the ladder while he was fixing something. Host you wrote about that, very public case. Guest it was, we found out later what happened. Nypd investigated and found out what really happened. In the medical profession, the legal profession, the wall street profession, there is a camaraderie, when people work together, and especially in policing, where your safety depends on other officers. That wall seems to be a little stronger than other places but now incentury amount youth. In the luima case that you brought up. The Police Officers were coming forward one with one. People didnt want to believe this happen, hat a huck would sexually sodomiz owe another human, and couldnt peel people couldnt believe it and as the information was gathered the other officers, especially the officers in the 7th in the 70 precinct started to say, wait a minute. Remember this, i remember that. And they came forward. One officer called us up the middle of the nice turretski and he said i cant sleep. This is bothering me. I need to talk for somebody right now. And we rush somebody over there and he gave us the information with needed. Host so, public the blue wall, not as big as you think. Guest but not just in policing. Host let me throw a word at you, integratey. Guest heat what you do when someone is not looking, when people are not looking, what you do defines your integratey. Host that brings me to the more particulars. Moore morticion. Yaw found out these doas, money was miss, a little here and there. You do a sting on her and the takes a couple hundred bucks. Than you said she mate 37,000 a year, doing one of the worst jobs in the city of new york. So what was your position . Didnt matter how much you made, you have to. Guest you have to be honorable and have integrate. That doesnt mean youre not human. Doesnt moon mean you cant understand. Host ever row great terminating a cop. Guest the with the system is set up in the Police Department, nobody is alone in the process. Iab is the investigator. We present our information to the department of advocates office, the departments prosecutor. Or we present our information to a federal or state prosecutor. The case then goes to a trial, whether an administrative trial before the trial commissioner or before a federal or state judge. The decision is rendered. The decision on whether the person loses his or her job belongs to the Police Commissioner or the state law, which says if youre convictedded of a felony or a misdemeanors related to your duties you automatically give up your office. Host did you ever in the 21 years in iab . Guest 21 years. Host ever give somebody a second chance. Guest of course but they paid a penalty. Host see, chief campisi is not as hard as people make him out to be. Guest the penalty has to fit the crime and has to it fit the individual. Theres not everybodys record is the same. An officer who has 20 years of service, should not be treated as an officer who has one year of service. Especially if the 20 years is scandal, free. Host the ticket scandal. Oh, man. It was big. Just inherently known that family members get tickets, people call in and try to get rid of tickets. Its something that happens. But you said you would not i quote yucks wish some of the civilians who asked to have their tickets fix weed have been charged. Why . Guest because theyre committing the crime as well. Heres the thing. Number one, when we were doing an investigation we had a Police Officer in the bronx who was very bad Police Officer i. Host very bad. Guest dealing with marijuana dealer do you gave him a lot of rope, two years. Guest because with the ticket scandal was developing and we couldnt bring the case down because the ticket scandal was an offshoot of this big investigation. Host you had to tail him every day. He did a lot of stuff. Guest we were ready to take him down. We worked with the District Attorney and had a grand jury date to start the preparation when the ticket scandal starts to evolve. We hear on a wiretap, our major bad cop, asking other cops to fix a ticket. So our initial response was, an additional charge. Charge him with the felonies and with the drugs and the stealing and all of things we did and we did integratey test on him and then we hear him fixings one ticket and another ticket and that starts to snowball and the decision was made we werent going good to the grand jury until we had the complete case. Its still going on. Guest the investigation is over. The when i left it was some people who still had not been through the criminal Justice System yet. Postponement. Host this is great, good tough stuff. A lot of good information being put out there. The drunken hero cop. You stated in your career, as a supervisor and intern affairs, if any boss your boss would be one person the pc, if anybody ever told you to change your decision and you was walking out and you was leaving. Here we have he drunken cop, offduty in a part. Let some rounds go after he thought she place was being robbed. You suspend him guest i suspended him. Host the next day mayor bloomburg says call Charles Campisi and tell him to put him back on duty. Guest it happened all the time. Host they changed your decision. Guest did not. He was suspended and acharged him. They just put him back to duty. Let me give you the story. He is unanimous afterhours place, unlicensed prepares. Thats automatic suspension. Also, he is now unfit for duty because he was drinking in an unlicensed premise and drinking in his car. We found alcohol in his car. Theres a man having a fight with a young lady and he is trying to pull her towards a cab. She is fighting him. He enter vaccines. Intervenes help fires a shot, the man takes off. We dont know if he is hit or not. He then because hi firearm discharged, you have to be breath liesed if someone could be hurt the man was hurt. He was shot. Soso then he refuses the breathalyzer test. He takes the test on the scene and blows intoxicated. Now according to procedure we has to take a more sophisticated test and refuses to take it so theres three reaps to spun him in an unlicensed premise, unfit for dotty and disobeyed a direct order to take a temples thats why he was suspended and i stock my guns. Host you stuck to gun us but when he big boss calls guest the final line is the commissioners. If he decides to restore him to duty host nothing left to do. Want to get to these, stop, and we frisk. You speak about stop, question and frisk. There was a federal lawsuit right before. I dont think you liked too much mayor de blasio. You talk very nice about giuliani and bloomberg but mayor de blasio, theres issues with the police. They turned their back on them. When he name there was was a federal lawsuit and a federal judge said stop, question and frisk was unconstitutional the way the nypd was implementing it. Two things. Did you do any tests for people wife stop, question and frisk . Im reading this and i want to know. Guest let me just give you a little background on the stop, and we frisk. Call it the stop, question and frisk policy. Its not a policy. Its a law. Guess bag to terry versus ohio in the 60s and theres a law in the new york state allows that. People were cutting corners. Officers were cutting corners. They were trying to do the right thing the wrong way. Some you can call that some people call that noble cause corruption. Its corruption. You can put any nice adjective in front of it but its still trucks. We dade couple of integrate tests. Some some indications we were watching the two officers and watching them the whole day. The end the week the check their records records and noticed on this day they each filled out the form, the uf250, saying they stopped and questions an individual. Very vague description. Refused identification, everything. They never, ever stopped anyone that day. When we called them in, they lied they told us the truth and said we lied on those reports. Our sergeant tells us we have to do stop and question, and this is the way we do it. We just fill out forms and turn them in and nobody is the wiser. That day, we were the wiser because we were watching them on onunrelated matter. And also had cases we prosecutorred these people because we bring the case to local District Attorney first and if not the District Attorney feels theres insufficient evidence, well do it administrative live where my undercovers were stopped and questions, not necessarily frisk, but my uncovers were strapped and questions and sometimes frisked inappropriately and we charged those officers, we made it known that we were doing these things and we wanted people to understand you have to follow the rules. Plain and simple. Host i mean, stop question and frisk, its like spiraling what got me, i was command and saying your dont have stop, question and frisk. Crime was going down, stop, question and frisk was going up and it was getting higher and higher, the gap, and nobody in i have to take blame nobody say, hey, we win we stopping 20,000 people, we were getting 16, 17 decrease in time. Now we stop at half a million and only get 2 decrease there is something wrong with that . I think every executive in the nypd takes a little blame for that. Guest well, think we pushed it a little too far. It is a great tool. Host when used correctly. Guest all tools must be used correctly. Host the case i always use about stop, question and frisk, the greatest case is the james blake, the tennis player. Without the tackle, thats great. Somebody walks in Charles Campisi you stop, question, dont tackle the guy. Thats the the public want the cops to stop people. Especially if they have information they believe theres reasonable suspicion of probable cause a crime was committed. Good stuff. After 40 years, we have to get back to that. Do you have any regrets in your career . Like everybody you probably wish something i should have done better or more of. I think what i did was i took the whole job to heart, and at times my family suffered because of it. I used to go to work very early in the morning, got home very late at night. When i was a precinct commander there was couple of times when my Anticrime Team came, and as you, without a supervisor, the team cant be out. We just talked about that with the shooting. And my Anticrime Team would say the supervisor is not available tonight for whatever reason. Were going to have to put our uniforms on, where do you want us to go . I would say i want you to stay in civilian clothes and i would take my Anticrime Team out. So the n. Y. P. D. Goes home with a 2000. What a time when n. Y. P. D. Is growing ever 50,000, corruption allegations are going down. I think thats a big accomplishment. Before we go, after 40 years guest i think im going to push repay. And my grandchildren are going to be the beneficiaries of that because theres nothing i want you for them