Nathalia holt who is here today talk about the research of your new book called rise of the rocket girls. Guest thanks for having me. Host i would like to begin hall you discover this group of women and how you managed to write about this group of women . It is a strange coincidence. My husband and i were expecting our first baby in 2010 having a difficult time coming up with names. One suggested Eleanor Francis and i wasnt sure and tell i googled name Eleanor Francis helene and i was just done by the picture i had no idea that women worked at that time so i found out Eleanor Francis was not alone that jet propulsion is laboratory there were no computers so that a time a computer men to a person that computes. Host how did this group of women come together with that was rare . Just because of macy roberts who started at the jet Propulsion Laboratory near the inception and then made supervisor of the computers and while she had meant that applied she decided she wanted to make it all women with a Cohesive Group but she was also worried they would have difficulty listening to her because she was a woman. Host so what did they do . Primarily by women during the cold war . But to have a woman supervisor that is very powerful they spent there in the beginning with the potential of rocket propellants and trajectories for their early vessels and then things changed and then when they begin changing the first computer programmers 40 or 50 years one of them still works at nasa today the longest serving female employee. They are very unique among the nasa centers and then it was quite unique. I mentioned a moment ago looking for names for one of your children but i wonder there is a wonderful story in the introduction that it is very extremely large so wondering how did you choose . Did you do so in such wonderful personal detail. How do you choose you to focus on and why . Many women had great contributions and many held a variety of roles at the jet propulsion lab. But it and focused on them from the very beginning to not have a good first fortune to meet these women in person and get the stories from them. It is wonderful they still know each other in their still friends with the vivid memories of what life was like in the 50s and 60s so that is how i ended up choosing the the focus my story on a few women. Host grievously going off of interviews for in the bottom of the story is . Cry was help lucky to have the help of archivists at the jet Propulsion Laboratory. They were wonderful to help find the documents, to spend time on the archives but this proved essential because the was hopeful with photographs and documents there is so much of the story that was lost because nobody had documented the womens role so i was fortunate to do those interviews. The way the are assumed under more dominant voices the fact you were doing this bit of archiving with the extra benefit of the writing this book so thank you for that. I am curious whether the most important characters is the data the Women Computers are with the processing and interpretation of the data but you have a wonderful part where you talk about raw data that shimmered in your hands could you tell us more about what these women were working with how that contribute to the Overall Mission it had changed over the half century that you cover in the book . There was certainly a lot of data to cover as it starts off in this simple way learning about the early missiles and the calculations done on an assault developed in the fifties i found interesting because it was not that important in the military since been very important later in 1958 with explorer one launched. It is interesting to see the womens talking nations are very important when we get to the space race. Then the data changes going from calculating trajectories and propellant them looking at a spacecraft in there so many wonderful stories to the moon and the planets and one of my favorite pieces of calculation was for the of voyagers this so interesting to me because of the way it was done in the early 70s there were looking at the solar system because of funding it was cut and one of the computers and engineers came in on a weekend and ended up finding a weight of the trajectory to allow them to take the one mission to jupiter and extend it so almost all planets of the solar system could be included it was just fascinating how they could use the trajectory and it was hush hush because theres so many concerns from nasa about going over budget. So not only to focus on one piece but of course, that covers many decades and fantastic missions. In this is relevant to some of the current debates about mission in san Planetary Science and prepare research this speaks to the current debate very well. One of my favorite parts of the book is looking at these women better Virtual Computers use signpost their stories with moments in the history of computing through the modern computer so can you tell me how you see your book fitting in the larger part of the 20th century . It is interesting when i first started researching i assumed it would be the computers that outlasted but now you see the people that lost the job with the i am came in and at j. P. L instead it was the computers that were constantly changing. So i really love the relationships that they had was surprised to learn how much mistrust there was of ibm in the early days of nasa many engineers told me they did not trust the machines and felt they were prone to flareups and they did not want to use them on missions because of that you have the opportunity of the women of j. P. Help to be the first computer programmers so they have these fun relationships one of my favorite is an i am that the women decide to name coro she was one of those women she gets her own name plate outside of the door along with all the other women so that relationship with technology is interesting and it was fun to see that evolved over the decades. Host that is especially interesting especially given the focus lynch epo with the trust required in technology if youre sending people to jupiter on the Voyager Mission but that distrust of the i am machines with a contrasting trust in the devices that is interesting to d. C. Any attention the way they thought about their i am computers or their robotic spacecraft . That was interesting it was such a long process for i am to gain their place that they now occupy very well at j. P. Al and that dynamic between that spacecraft their building in the engineers are watching with theres so much trust going on into every detail but yet they want to make sure there are humans behind the calculations so it is funny it took as long as it did for the machines to take precedence over humans with calculations but yet there is still an interesting dynamic today at current jpl we tend to think of Space Exploration something detached from humanity done by machines and computers but it is interesting to see how an important people really are to the process. I love the story how she was gendered as a woman is given a womans name i thought that was a wonderful detail. Did the women never have any anxiety or do they do different work how was their labor divided . There was a lot of fear and for good reason there were several supervisors that would tell the women your jobs will be gone soon i am will replace you we wont need you anymore so what was a real fear there would be losing jobs to technology and it did happen all over but the fact that they could persist is quite amazing. Is in beyond the presence that they have and the alternate universe that they could persist in a time period with the expectation to leave their jobs upon marriage or childbirth the fact that so many did continue to work for decades is remarkable because in the exact same time period many women are barred from working in the early 60s as they are compared to the astronauts written off with the expectation investing in them that they would leave for marriage or childbirth. So why is this story so different . You have a few that choose to leave when they get pregnant but why did they persist wise this story different than others during this time period . There are several reasons but you are right at that time it was a very small percentage only 25 percent of mothers worked outside the home and of course, there was no Maternity Leave so when women got pregnant there were often forced off the lab and i found because they were a tight Cohesive Group with a female supervisor so when helen became supervisor she provided a very strong example of a working mother she had two children and could just use Vacation Time to substitute for Maternity Leave and what she did that wasnt happening is she made from calls should call a woman after they had a child if and ask if they wanted to come back she had a very high success rate after words but then the lab provided an environment that was very friendly toward them because unlike other nasa centers that our more strict with the military atmosphere in which had a very academic feel and still does so at the time people had to work a very strict eight hour day at some centers there were not even allowed to talk to each other but at j. P. Yelled they could shift hours hours, early or a leave early and basically could just hours in a way that is common to us now with flex time that was unusual ben of course, there were still working very long hours all night if there was a launch so they also depended on each other with wonderful families but i definitely think one reason the standout is the friendships that they had in the fact someone who is purposely trying to make a wonderful environment for working mothers. Host i am sure a lot of women today would read this story is the lot of Common Threads with a flextime with the women of socioeconomic values by the then you are a microbiologist and a mother so how much of your own experience with that balancing act factored into writing the book . It is interesting because you dont expect to have many similarities with women better in their 80s and 90s but i found myself relating to their experiences and sharing what they went through at this time. I found their stories very inspiring the way they handled family and work was very familiar to me and i enjoyed that part it was very surprising in many times when i was having trouble balancing of with think they did this and 59 so i can do this today. [laughter] host in addition to these uplifting moments of the two women that they wish to overcome internal or external pressures, there is a few moments of sadness or failure with the strange and unusual set up for instance one compels her to go to therapy wise and she married . I that this is awfully spore women are being forced to choose not only internally but then extra early with loved ones could you go over the other external pressures will of the computers beyond the workplace . There were a lot of expectations put on women at that time and i found that over and over again one of the most chromatic of the first africanamerican hired in a technical position she had an incredible background with a degree in Chemical Engineering today should have got a job as an engineer but because of the limitations of her race and gender she was a computer and ended up having incredible advantages for j. P. Of becoming an engineer eventually but certainly the extern all pressures of geography that was put on her was quite difficult and i found it quite sad when i learned a bareback ground but yet inspiring she could overcome all of that to achieve her dream to become an engineer. Host a wedge you got up to her because i caught her store was so compelling one of the few women of color when you mention her struggles that you write about eventually she has to leave because she is commuting she doesnt feel comfortable selling in pasadena that is white and then leaving go someplace closer to home she would find women should cover very bright with a lot of potential but not necessarily the degree needed to be hired as an engineer said she would hire them as a computer then encourage them to go to night school and she found many women had bachelors degrees and wanted to do engineering been not quite in the right place so she could fill the lab she hired many minorities in jpl is quite a special place with the work she did in hiring. Host . Host is a your understanding is that jay pl in addition to hiring more women during that time also hired more people of color than other places . Battle think thats true i think other nasa centers hired many women and women of color as well but with j. P. Allen was the careers that they had and other nasa centers women were inspired by the late fifties or early 60s so that is what i found was very unique. Could you talus tell us why women were being fired . Technology park and other nasa centers they fired those that worked as computers there were also large groups of women and it was happening all over the country. Host so the computers that gbl really should have been concerned for their jobs but they were to sounds like they were pretty comfortable. Did you find that they were aware of what was happening elsewhere . Were they concerned or did the culture of having so many women be someplace else . There were definitely concerned. Men that they worked with who basically told them your jobs are in jeopardy in you will be gone because of technology so there was fear they managed to overcome this a large part they had the female supervisor the could vouch for them in their relationships with the male colleagues but what was unique they would include the women on publications and this was very uncommon at the time but pirelli boosted their careers quite a bit. Host that brings me to a question i have about the overall conclusions you make in your book there is a quotation from the final chapter of the 60s section while protesters were demanding equal rights across the country the women created their own equality building in the environment to build up women their contributions for every bit as eliot as their counterparts this is really a remarkable claim especially given the struggle and their failures in their spaces and also what you mentioned elsewhere the same arguments against the men if you leave her get pregnant or get married. But beyond that it with the art class to show that in a very specific way of knowledge so arguing that they shaped j. P. All the cells of the place of the quality especially in the 60s so speak more how you came to the conclusion of equal value i would appreciate that. There was a crucial role in emissions and i felt when i talked to them much that value is how they saw themselves not just in their colleagues or included in publications but not simply their work that was important but they saw themselves as equally important as theyre male colleagues and that is a big deal because they have many other women in the lab those that worked as secretaries and they found themselves to be quite different in their treatment was different and secretaries so that is where i could make such a big claim because of the plays they occupied that was quite special at the time so it changes through the early 60s were there just on the verge and it is important to note they are making less than theyre male colleagues and that is all about to change it will become engineers and their salaries will go up. But they feel valued in a way that is equal to their male colleagues. Host that makes sense given the narrative voice in the book it is almost conversational like a collective memoir you are introducing yourself as a part of which is compelling to make this book incredibly accessible across such a broad audience when you were writing the book to do have a sense of their leadership in what to emphasize . I did think about the readers i wanted to attract i was hoping to have the range to attract young people who could be brilliant and may not have the background but would like to have an overview of the early period of nasa or even those historians or experts that not all what about the history in detail of Early Missions of the 60s but maybe not the details from this perspective the role of women in these missions i hope there are still plenty of stories that people havent heard bader interesting of how nasa came to me. Host i am impressed by the little many science lessons you dispersed throughout the text they are incredibly accessible very simple and brief but punctuate the text as to explain the concept the computers were working with why did he choose to include those . That was important to me to include as much math and science as i could because it is important to understand what they did in their contributions but also it is just fascinating and found myself overwhelmed by the beauty of these experiments in the Early Missions it was a lot of fun to write those and hopefully they are accessible for any reader to follow. Host i found them very accessible and i am not a scientist i appreciate that very much. [laughter] i was thinking of some of the current initiatives in the office of Science Technology policy with representation of women so howd you think youre but can contribute to the ongoing dialogue to encourage women to work in the stem feels that they are underrepresented . I hope that has a big influence the situation right now of women with technology is desperate we need to bring more women into technology i hope the stories are inspiring they can serve as role models it is important we recognize their contributions because they deserve it and it is overdue that they get recognition of their work but i also hope it will serve as an inspiration for all those young girls under interested in science today. Host that being said this book covers such a vast area of material fell on the cutting room floor can you tell me a few of the favorite stories that didnt make it . Such a hard question. There are so many great stories. [laughter] i was surprised i talk about jupiter c in the book which is a forerunner to the First American satellite i was surprised how much work went into that and i discussed briefly in the book but the detail that i learned from the women working on it was quite incredible before sputnik even launched they were strapping together a model of the sergeant missile and putting them in stages on top of a rocket and they really wanted to launch the First American satellite at j. P. Al and they do eventually but i was shocked the could have done one before one year before sputnik was launched so the details that went into that and the trickery working with their not supposed to only looking at nose cones for different rockets but in said they were designing a spacecraft. Host were your subjects involved in keeping some of these under the radar projects out of the view of the powers that be to keep them going . Guest yeah. So there were different security clearances at the time and, you know, this is all in the 1950s. Now things have changed in the lab. But in the 1950s, there were different colors for badges and different security clearances, and the women that worked these computers actually had the highest security clearance in the lab, and they would keep all of their documents locked up in a steel container at night. They had to always be on call in case there was a breakin in the lab. And to so they were a part of this. But what i found kind of funny about jpl is how much these scientists and engineers have done things that are sneaky, and they sort of continued to do this over the decades. I saw this with such as jupiter c and later on with the voyagers or which was also very speak key. And they just kind of continue to, i think, sort of push the limits of what can be done for exploration. Host again, its just it seems, it seem i think it might be remarkable to some people listening that so much of whats done at these nasa centers is tinkering and kind of, it seems like bureaucratic and very specific, but there still is at a place like jpl a lot of working around and a lot of things that are a little less cut and dried in terms of how theyre in terms of procedure and what theyre working on. And i think that you did a fantastic job of describing that particularly during the lead up to the First American satellite. Thats another part of your book that i really enjoyed, is that you have these while youre telling the stories of these women, youre also telling an alternate history of, excuse me, of the American Space program. Besides you mentioned your surprise about finding out we could have beaten the soviet union to the first satellite to sputnik, was there any other surprises you found in your research, things that you found that were unexpected about the history of, excuse me, the history of the American Space program that was revealed through your research on these women . Guest i was surprised by how many failures there were early on. It was very sad to the learn about the atmosphere and what it was like in the early lunar probes that were sent out from jpl. The ranger series in particular, its just one failure after another, and it was just so painful to learn what the effect was in the lab. Just a desperate time, this feeling that we have to get a probe on the moon, we have to do this to pave the way for astronauts to go there at some point. And there was kind of a trained tension there, because you had many of the engineers who sort of felt like the moon was too easy, that it wasnt interesting enough, that when we were doing what we were doing there really wasnt that scientifically important and that what we should be doing was focusing our probes to venus and mars. So you actually have these competing teams that were working on this, that were looking at both projects. And because of this, i found that the initiative for the lunar probes often got left behind, and there just wasnt the same excitement at jpl to work on these missions. And then, of course, things become desperate. People end up losing their jobs because thered been so many failures of ranger series. Sojust an interesting part this was just an interesting part of history to me about how difficult it really was to get a probe up on the moon. Host where did the excitement go . When they lost their excitement, i mean, was it just a matter of there being enough failures that they lost heart, or were there other factors at play . Guest you know, there was a lot of tension between engineers and scientists at that time. And i found that an interesting dynamic that continues today at jpl. Because there was a feeling for many scientists that they wanted to explore parts of the moon that would be more interesting. They didnt want to just look at these flat landing places. And, of course, thats what the probes needed to do. They needed to be able to go into the sea of tranquility and places where astronauts could actually land. And so it was interesting to learn about that tension and how, you know, how they dealt with this. And the missions, certainly, go up in complexity from there. Host beyond, beyond the Ranger Program, youre reminding me of this tension between crewed versus Uncrewed Missions during time period. I think one of the interesting tieins to your book is during the lead up to president kennedys announcement that we were going to the moon, that was going to the moon, landing people on the moon was not a foregone conclusion. There were those who argued that the soviets were better at creating heavylifting rockets, that we were better at optics, at creating Scientific Missions and that we should perhaps, in shaping what the race would be, should make it instead, say, going to mars and gathering data about mars. But in the end, with all of the other politics that went into it, landing a man on the moon became the primary goal of the space race. So im wondering, i mean, you mentioned that the Ranger Program that the jpl staff worked on was intended to create the possibility of landing the first astronauts on moon. And i wondered if in doing that, if they maintained their feelings there that perhaps crewed space flight was not necessarily the way to go or if they had other motivations behind working towards these projects. You mentioned the kind of sneakiness. Did you get a sense that they were not as, still not as enthused about the human spacecraft and kind of used that as a way to support the work they actually cared about which was Uncrewed Space flight . Guest i did get that sense. I really got the feeling that it was the Uncrewed Spacecraft that was really held in high regard. I was feeling that that was the work that was scientifically important, that needed to be pursued and that the crewed spacecraft was not nearly as interesting. But, you know, it was a balance. It was a balance between different interests and what i think is impressive is that, ultimately, they were able to have both. And then today, of course, jpl is doing some Incredible Missions that are all robotic. Host id like to go back a little bit to the particular, to the women that you write about in your book and the way that you write about them. As i mentioned, book really reads in a lot of ways as a collective memoir. And, you know, you have these wonderful details, for instance, of one of the computers mismatching her shoes and socks in the lead up to the explorer launch. [laughter] parties that they attended and their dates with their boyfriends and their husbands. So im wondering, did you in speaking to these women, did you find that they were just as interest in sharing with you interested in sharing with you these personal stories in addition to their worksome you have some really upsetting things in there, i have to say. For instance, the failure of sue finleys first pregnancy and thats kind of the moment that drives her to eventually work at jpl. These women have put their stories out there, theyve put themselves out there through this book. How willing were they to share their stories, and how do they feel now, have you spoken with them about how youve presented them in this book, these specific windows into their lives and histories . Guest yes. You know, i was fortunate to become friends with these women and spend a lot of time with them. So we talked a lot about these personal stories and how they would feel about having them in a book. Sue pinly, when she lost that newborn, that is such a heartbreaking moment. And when i talked with her about it, she felt it was important for other women to know that this happens, and we tend to be silent on issues like this because it is so sad. Its a tragedy when a baby dies. But sharing her story, i feel, was important to her because she wanted other women to the know what it was like, what it felt like, how it shaped her. It was an important part of her history s and so it was important to include that. A lot of these details might seem silly, such as the mismatched shoes, but it was fun to learn these details. But i think it also gives us some more insight into what it was like to be part of these missions and what it really felt like at the time. Host it really bringing brings the story to life. The pranks, especially [laughter] sue finley is, you mentioned, the longest serving woman employee at nasa. There was a moment in the book that i thought was really interesting where she is at home after becoming a mother and is facing this strange malaise, and no one can really seem to pin point, and eventually her psychologist suggests that she go back to work as a treatment for this malaise. And that really, i found that really, you know, surprising given that this is the 1960s. Was she, indeed, unusual in this . Or did you find that this story reveals, perhaps, a hidden thread of change and beliefs about women in the workplace during the 1960s . Guest well, she was unusual because there werent very many working mothers at that time in the 1960s. But i think probably theres many women that can relate with that experience of being home with Young Children and missing work and wanting to be at work. Even if be your a today if youre a stay at home mother. But, yeah, for her to have a therapist tell her you should return to work, that is definitely unusual. That didnt happen very often then. But for her it was absolutely the right decision, and she made quite a career after that. Im very glad she decided to return to work after having children. Host what is her title now . A woman who started when she had the name of something that is now an electronic technology, what is her title now as someone whos, may not have had the same education but has worked at nasa for such a long time . Guest well, in the late 1960s all of the women that worked as computers were given the title of engineer. And this was a moment of celebration. The women were so excited about that. But what is sad about sue fellowshiplys story is finleys story is that title was taken away. This happened in 2004. So in 2004 nasa decided that if you didnt have a bachelors degree, you couldnt be an engineer. And so although she works as a Systems Engineer at nasa and she is nasas longestserving woman, that title of engineer was taken away that year, and her salary was actually changed, and she was put on an hourly salary. So its really a terrible situation. And i think host thats terrible. Guest it is. Yeah, its horrible. It really shows the lack of recognition for the decades of service these women have put in at jpl, and its something i hope this book will change. Host sure. I feel like the time ripe more there to be, you know for there to be, you know, a movement to reverse sue fellowshiplys demotion. Fellowshiplys demotion. That seems like a real travesty given how much shes done for nasa over decades and decades in changing gender norms. Thats pretty incredible. Um, do you i mean, were there other people who, i mean, im curious if she is alone in this, or if there are other women who continue to work at nasa who also saw their titles changed, or if this is kind of a oneoff situation. Host well, shes in a unique situation because the other women mostly retired in the late 1990s before this rule was put into effect. And you have to remember that they were all hired at a time in the 40s and 50s when having a bachelors degree was not seen as a prerequisite, even for men, to have these jobs. So even though many of the women did have degrees, many of them also didnt. They were just like sue, exceptionally skilled at math. But what i did find that i also found upsetting was that lack of recognition thats taken place at anniversaries. And so one of those happened in 2008 during the 50th anniversary of explorer i which is americas first satellite. And nasa held this big gala in honor of this and invited all of the people that were part of that mission. But they didnt invite the women who were part of it. And this i found very sad, because these women spent a long time working on this mission. Many of them were in the control room that night including Barbara Paulson who was a critical part of that mission success. Host absolutely. You open with her counting down in this, like, incredible moment. And i remember being surprised. I didnt even know that this was a womans voice that was, you know, kind of during this crucial moment was monitoring what was happening and was basically, was one to state that there was success, right . Is that correct, that she was the one to kind of confirm that explorer had succeeded . Host yes, thats right. Guest is that right . Guest yes, thats correct. She was the one who was able to tell us that that mission was finally a successing. And she basically had this room full of people just waiting on edge. She had richard feinman, the famous physicist, and lee dobridge, president of cal tech, who were standing beside her looking over at the paper, so excited to learn if this was actually going to work or not. Host i mean, thats, thats really incredible. Thats something that i think your book, that seems to really encapsulate both the book itself and what we were just speaking about, about the forgotten stories of these women. Won woman, the fact that she confirmed the success of the First American spacecraft is huge. And its surprising that its largely been forgotten. And im hopeful that perhaps your book will be a first step towards, you know, towards reinstating the place of these women in the American Space program. I wanted to speak briefly, or i would like to hear from you a little bit about the computers creating a womens space. So weve talked a bit about the Space Program and the role of jpl and the position of jpl within nasa and the space industry, the American Space industry. So you mentioned that women in leadership created this space in many ways, some cases rejected men who applied to be computers, particularly in the 50s and 60s. And that kind of resonated with me. It sounded kind of similar to other rather, to womens groups that came together later on during the 1960s to create womenonly spaces. And i wonder if you got a sense if these women kind of werent what their intent was and if they saw themselves as being part of a Larger Movement as time proking progressed, as the second progressed, as the Second Wave Feminist Movement came to the fore or if they were just kind of doing their own thing separate from what was going on in the rest of the country. Guest yes. You know, they didnt really see themselves as part of a feminist movement. They really just loved their work at jpl. They felt like their jobs were the best jobs in the world. I heard over and over again that they couldnt even believe that they got to be there and that they got to be paid for this work. They enjoyed it that much. And so even though they were this Unusual Group of all women, and they only hired women, they werent setting out to change history that way. And, you know, thats actually a quote that i opened the book with, a quote from sally ride where she says i didnt come to nasa to make history. And i feel like that really encapsulates their attitudes towards it. They were there for the work. They were there because they looed science, they loved they loved science, they loved math, and, you know, it just so happens that they did change history, and they did make a really big impact on nasa. Host i love that you included that quote from sally ride, because sally ride is a very complicated figure in the history of gender in the American Space program, the fact that, you know, the Women Computers that you talk about in your book and sal hi ride, they all sally ride, they all were primarily doing their jobs but become feminist be figures in the telling, particularly, you know, given their entries into fields where they were previously dominated by men. So youve created, you create a very nice arc there with that quote by sally ride. Do these women still, i mean, i know that a lot of them have retired, but do they still have, do they still have their networks of camaraderie, their networks of communication connected . Is are they still connected to each other even in retirement, or have they largely gone their separate ways at this point . Guest they are. Theyre still friends. They still talk to one another. Yeah, i think it says a lot about a what life was like at that time at jpl where they spent all of their hours together working, and then they had all of these social events too. And so i think this really made those friendships very strong. In 2013 i actually organized a reunion of the women at jpl where i had women come from from all over the country, and it was such an honor to be there with them and toured the lab and see all of these places they remembered and hear memories of what it was like. And then also to see their relationships with each other and to see that they really are still good friends today was quite inspiring. Host and you were able to get quite a few of them to come to that reunion . Were they did you have a large group . Guest i did, yes. It was a large group. I believe it was about 17 women and, yeah, we just had a wonderful time going over the laboratory. Host and did you, when you were going through, did you run into any other women working at jpl now, and were they aware of who they were in contact with at the time . It seems like theyre forerunners, it would be interesting to see how women at jpl now would react to the Women Computers from an earlier era. Guest well, there were many women there who remember because, of course, many of them, you know, worked there up until the late 1990s. So many of them do remember this group. But for the younger generation, for the young women who werent hired by helen lang and who didnt know that there were once a group of women called computers at the lab, i think it was pretty surprising to see that these are their forerunners and that this is really what made their future possible at jpl. Host fantastic. Well, its an excellent book. Its extremely accessible. I would highly recommend it to anyone of any age who might be interested in learning about a really Remarkable Group of american women that history has largely forgotten. Thank you very much, nathalia holt, for being here to talk about your book. I very much enjoyed our conversation. Guest thank you so much. I enjoyed being here with you. Cspan, created by americas Cable Television companies and brought to you as a Public Service by your cable or satellite provider. You know, everybody told me being theres Nothing Better than being a grandparent. Its the best thing that could ever happen to a person. So id heard that, heard that, heard that. But no one talks about this emotion. It is, its a kind of loving thats unlike any other, and i wanted to find out what that was. Now i knowst a surge of know its a surge of hormones, but, you know, no one thinks that way. And it really changes us, it truly changes us. Yeah. I was going to mention, the science in the book you talk about. Tell us about some of the research that you did. I mean, how you kind of studied about the science of it. Well, that was a big question almost from the beginning, what was going on with me. And i discovered a book called the female brain, which i recommend, by louann brezantine. And she talks about the chemistry of women at every stage of their lives, so when theyre children, when theyre teenagers, when theyre mothers, and she talks about grandmothers. And i the grandmother part was very short, so i did what i would do if it were a 60 minutes story, and i called her on the phone and interviewed her. And she i said, you know, its kind of crazy, but i really feel like i have fallen in love in the classic sense of falling in love. And she laughed, and she said, you did. Because the pathway, sort of the neurons of romantic love, boy girl love, and the pathway for baby love is the same. So you are feeling something very similar. Uhhuh. And then two years later along comes chloe, right . And then along came two, and i thought, am i going to have the same feeling for number two . Right. And i thought i wouldnt because it doesnt happen twice. Well, of course, it did happen twice. And i bonded with her too. I want to show a picture of you there you are together going down [laughter] thats more recent. Yeah, right. Well, i find that among the many changes that take place in us, this is both grandmothers and grandfathers, that we cannot say no to our grandchildren. No matter how strict we were as parents, no matter how critical, no matter how much we were on their case. Grandparents love uncritically. We love unconditionally. And we never say no. Its always yes. If they want i hated going to the park with my daughter. [laughter] i hated, i hated slides. I hated pushing the damn swing, you know, back and forth. [laughter] and my grandchildren want to go to the park, im there. And i am pushing the swing, and its great. Yeah. You can watch this and other programs online at booktv. Org. Host bill ayers, in your upcoming book, use of the word manifesto, why . Guest well, i liked it because, you know, it was, its an attempt to write a clarion call. Thats really the attempt. The attempt is to say, you know, all these issues that we debate in this country, i think theyre been framed incorrectly or theyve been framed in a way that