Transcripts For CSPAN2 Deborah Liu Take Back Your Power - 10 New Rules For Women At Work 20220918

Advanced analytics and Machine Learning for companies. So were very excited about that. If you want to check out more, we are a dub dub dub. Thats espresso dot com. Its like espresso but without the ethos espresso dot com and were h so check us out without further ado that was my psa for the evening. Im going to pass this to perna, who is going to introduce our special guests for the evening. Awesome. Thank you, andrea. Im like, should i sit . Thank you so much, everyone, for coming out tonight. It is incredibly just wonderful to have our Community Come back together again for inperson events. I think this is our first, like andrea said, our first major year in in real life event. Weve done a couple during a couple of virtual ones during covid and its actually very fitting that our first inperson event, postcovid, is none other than whips own cofounder and board chair. Deblois yes, please give us a. Deb on top of doing so many Amazing Things in life, is also the ceo and president of ancestry. So please welcome her up and going to have an amazing conversation. Deb, thank you so much for joining us today. Its incredible to have you here in person, in flesh. Thank you for the invitation. And its great to actually see real people. I have not been in in person with events in two years and i forgot to mention the reason why were here all tonight is because deb wrote this book, take back your power. Deb, what an amazing feat. I mean, as if you werent already busy enough running a company of 5000 people, spearheading women and product on top of being a busy mom. Like, i have no idea how you do it, but tell us why. Like, why . Why a book . Why now you know, actually i opened with a story with the whip chapter leave of new york, which i met several years ago. And we were having dinner and, you know, at this dinner we got together and we were talking about how often we were actually mistaken for the assistant when we were there, someone who works for us. You know, every one starts talking and suddenly youre cut out of the conversation. And i told the story, but i used to speak at money 2020. The biggest payments conferences youve, fintech, you know, biggest conference. And i used to keynote the second day, but on the first day i would go walk around with my head of partnerships. And of course, you know, you have a conversation with someone, you just meet. And suddenly i noticed that it went from a triangle the three of us talking to me being cut out and then having a conversation with each other. So how many times does that happen to you ladies . Okay, this happens a lot more suddenly. They kind of say, well, you know, shes probably not the leader, because if youre playing the odds, hes probably the leader. And we were telling stories to each other at this dinner and everyone had had this experience. And we said, you know, and then we said, well, why dont we ever say anything . And when somebody said, why dont you make it awkward . And then we decided at that dinner, were going to make it awkward. We were going to raise our hand and, you know, because if theyre going to assume we, the assistant, we should raise our hand to say no, because then it shows that were leaders and that that one person is going to realize that maybe the leader looks like us. Instead of the guy next to us. And thats the opening story, one of the opening stories, this book and for all those times when we just say we dont want to make it awkward, right . We dont we dont want to be difficult. We dont want to stand up. And you know, have someone say that were too aggressive and were giving away our power because then they can assume this persons a leader. And by the way, i used to keynote the second day and everyone came to talk me after because they knew that. But i just remember thinking, well, maybe i you know what . If they thought was rude and i think all of us felt that way. And after that dinner, like, were going to do this, i just remember that. And it was a mantra for me. It was make it awkward and like stand up. And this is a story about taking back your power because this happens to so many women. Im super powerful women who are underestimated. And so many times we have to have the men around us, the other women around us actually say, no, shes in charge or, you know, you should listen to her. I love that dinner. I still remember to this day. And there is like i mean, also just some amazing women around that table. And but i think what was really crazy was just how many of us had stories to share, like each of us could, like, at least come up with one or two examples of how we had been kind of like overseeing because we didnt look like the leader in the, in the room. I know youve done a lot of research into the book. Youve had so many of your own personal experiences as youve talked to several women and you know, you i think youve also brought in a lot of Academic Research what themes have you seen kind of emerge from all of this research, from all these stories . Rick, regarding unconscious bias and what what are you seeing like water what are some things women are up against in the workplace . You know, i think the one thing is when were in school, theres level playing fields, right . You you take test you know, you get your s. A. T. Score. Theres a class rank and we just feel like things are fair. And then you get into the workplace and the first time it hits you is when you get you dont get promoted or someone gets a higher rating or you dont understand why youre feeling. And a lot of it is unconscious bias. Its not discrimination. It is these really small things. So ill give you a small example. So i did a study in Tech Companies and they said for a man to be considered a leader, he has to be considered confident and competent. Right. But for a woman, she has to exhibit both those behaviors. But she also has to be seen as warm. That is absolutely not fair, because there are more men and there are not more men and theyre warm women and theres not more women. But women have this extra thing they have to do. And if youre not a woman whos seen as warm, you are actually punished in the workplace. Youre just seen not as a leader. Now, is that fair . Absolutely not. But at the same time, we only get to do we only get to choose what we do about that, because i wish i could change that right. If i had a magic wand and i said, okay, this is not a requirement that would be amazing and we would all want that. But we dont run our companies. We dont were not in charge. And so we have to live this requirement. Now, what does that mean . That is it. You know, and i think and the reason i wrote this book is first, we didnt even realize it was this extra hurdle. And then once we realized that we have to do extra work. And so how do we deal with that . But i use this quote from chuck sandall, the book. It says, like, life is 10 , what happened to me and 90 what i choose to do about it. And for a long time i was not very warm. I was not very outspoken. I didnt know what to do. I said, you know what . What does that even mean to be warm . So i worked with my career coach and she said, you need to kind of read the and understand how people feel. And i said, i feel like when i walk into a room, i just i need glasses. Like i cant read the room and shes like, youll get better at this. And it took me a long time to really understand how people were feeling, but its just im not a natural person whos very warm or empathetic. And i worked at it like it was a skill that is absolutely unfair and its absolutely part of the reason im here today is because i was willing to work on it. And so i wrote book because it is hard, right . Its not fair. But at the same time, we live with this reality and we only get to choose how we act within it, how we help, other women, how we change the rules when we get there. But until then, we had choices. And our choices are sometimes do we play the game or not. And its not an easy choice sometimes. And so i was i want us to be realistic about that. And as you the studies, its true across a number of the various, for example, men and women now negotiate just as much, which is amazing. It used to be women negotiate a lot less, but men get a raise 20 of the time when they ask and women get it 15 of the time. Is that fair . Absolutely not. But you know what . You get if you dont negotiate zero and so the distance between 15 and 20 is absolutely unfair. Distance we zero in 15 is way more so lets go ask. So ask for a raise. Ladies will do a workshop. Were doing workshop. Well do a workshop. I can. But i think, you know, sometimes kind of focused on the 15 to 20 and i absolutely want to close that gap. But if we dont raise our hand and ask, were from zero, you know, can we get going from 15 to 0 . So lets go do it. I love that im curious i mean you were talking about, you know, sort of the feedback that you got that you werent warm enough, which is absolutely a tracy sitting right next to you. But im curious like what like were there what tactics like what what did you actively do to like you know, address that feedback . How, how did you become a warm person . You know, that was really hard. Its really because my husband, like i was telling husband, i went to the Seattle Office right before covid and i said, you know, as i was in the Seattle Office, all these people came up from my old teams and came to hug me and and hes like, you let people you i know hes like, i dont like to be touched at all. And and i and i realized that over time, i got much more comfortable with who i am with people around me. But it had changed so slowly that until he pointed that out, i was like, oh yeah, guess youre right. I never. And even he had no idea that i had changed so much at work because doesnt see that. And so i realized that it was it was a Little Things it was taking a moment and saying how is she feeling now or how is he feeling . What does he need . And i was just in my own head like i was one of those people, super type a, you know, check all the boxes. I said, if i just do all of these things. And i realized it was something a little bit different, which is really my coach actually helped me with this. She she said, dont watch the movie in your head. Try to figure out what movies playing in their head. And at first im like, what does that even mean . Because i just didnt understand it. She said, you know, in your head youre kind of playing like, what you want to say, how you reacting, how youre feeling. But if you actually project yourself and say, well, how she feeling like, you know, how does part of feel after being you know way for so long and coming you know being on television the first time were doing this you know but really kind of empathizing and saying you know what do you how are her feelings then how do you project your reactions to that other person that really helps me kind of really merge the movies into one because i think sometimes when youre talking youre actually talking at each other and not with each other. And so i got a lot better at it, but it was a lot of work and it took years. But the one thing that was different and the thing that changed about me was i used to think that being an introvert was just who i was. And now i treated all of this like, skill, like i can learn these skills i dont have be an extrovert, but i can learn the skills that extroverts bring to the table. And i can be more successful. If i can adapt faster such solid advice, i feel like theres just all these wisdom, like just being dropped i want to kind of like shift a little bit to going back to talking about power. You know, we have roomful of women and some men here in product and. I think whats really interesting about being in product is like this whole like adage around like influencer without authority, right . And were talking about power. Were talking about, you know, exactly the same that were supposed to be really good at. So im curious, what is something that women misunderstand about their power and what can we do to, like, overcome . I think the thing we always forget is we have way more power than think we do. When you walk into that room, you get to decide what youre going to do in there. And i think sometimes, you know, i my friend Caroline Sasaki calls it ridiculous, unintentional, ridiculous strategies like you would never, you know, go into a room and say, im not going to say anything at this meeting. Im not going to pitch my idea or im going to back and kind of just listen or, you know, im im going to on the energy of the room by founding the whole time. You just dont choose to do those things. But how many do you walk out . You just did that, right . Someone well, why are you upset . You know, why were you frowning . And i realized that theres this this sense that we have of, you know, were not making intentional choices. Sometimes were sitting back because we feel uncomfortable. And that moment is you say, you know what, im going to choose at this meeting, im going to do x and commit yourself. All of you have goals. I mean, you are amazing product leaders because you have goals you have metrics. What if the metric, how influential you were, how many times you spoke at the meeting, how many times you pitched your ideas and if you measure yourself on those things, how would you do and . I think sometimes we kind of give ourselves this what we call the free pass over chapter on the free path, which is we sit back, but you miss 100 of the shots. You dont take. And so if you dont pitched the idea, it doesnt get pitched. You know, if you dont speak up and fight for what you think, right . For the company strategy, it doesnt get. And so in a lot of ways, you withhold your power and youre actually taking away your own power and allowing someone else to do that. And so instead actually saying, im going to be intentional, im going to make this choice and im going to measure on it. Thats why it makes your products the big thing. And that could be what makes you amazing in the room. Weve talked a bit about kind of the idea of like this. It wasnt who you are and you know, you had to work towards it. Im curious like in terms of you like looking over all of these experiences youve had, you being early days people and managing a team at facebook, what was, you know, in your mind, one of the biggest sort of stumbling blocks that you to face. And how did you overcome that obstacle . I think my biggest block was, you know, i didnt really know what i wanted in my career. And i actually almost left a few times. So when i was at paypal, i had my first child and my husband was an executive. He was a, you know he was a manager, a director at google. And was doing really well. And i felt really like i had a child i left my team because my second in command took over and i did want to take the job back after six months. And so i kind of drifted. I worked in corporate strategy. I created social commerce and charities, verticals of paypal, but was kind of working part time. And i was just frankly bored. Like, this is a very in story. I was really bored and i was like, is this it . Is this what i want . And so i went to the vp, i worked with and i resigned and. I said, you know, im leaving tech and he said, no, im going to get you another job. And he called me a couple of days later and hes like, i you the job heading the buyer experience at ebay. I was like, what . And suddenly i was doing this new job and i was really, you know, reinvigorated. But i had gotten into my own head, which was like, i just dont feel it. And than unlocking myself, i kind of just said, im going to quit. And fortunately he went out of his way to say, i know you have more talent and you have more in you. Im going to help you find something without sponsors like that and could never have could have opened up to another another chapter which case i led the buyer experience at ebay and then i got the interview with facebook. Then, you know, i had a second child and i went there. I was on maternity leave, you know, and so really just, you know, i think there had been moments when i said, you know, i just want quit this game. But, you know, i think these are the things that are the most difficult in your career, which is youre going to hit stumbling blocks, going to get passed over by you, know its going to work for somebody whos your peer. Youre going to have just like a crappy job you dont love. Youre going to have a bad. And the question is, you only get to choose what you do with it. And so i call this stumbling blocks to stones. And so, you know, youre blocks are going to stock units stub your toe, its going to suck. But you can use that as a stepping stone to the next thing. It could be the best thing that ever happened to you. But i kind of got in my head and i let it not be. And then i had reframe that and say, okay, this was an opportunity. And luckily i had amazing sponsors and mentors to help me do that. Without them, i probably would have quit tackling multiple times and. So it is that kind of thing thats really, really important. I love this idea of allyship and the fact that your manager, who is male like was like, no, no, im not going to let leave. We have a couple of men here, the room, which is amazing. Thank you for coming. What can would you give to to the men in the room how they can continue to support their female colleagues and, how they can continue to, you know, promote them . Well, i think the first chapter is a lot of research about, unconscious bias in the workplace, like none of this is like very rarely is it just people like jerks or being terrible. Its these small things built up over time, you know, things like office, housework, expectations like, you know, discrimination against like motherhood is one of the biggest biases. If you say that you work at the pta, you have volunteer pta, youre like 70 less likely to get hired and offered 10,000 less. Right. Because they just think that doesnt happen to fathers. Okay, thats just the reality. And theres so many of these Little Things that i think we just dont see. And its the workload, its those types of things. And i think that the most amazing allies are the ones who are like, i see you, i see the playing field. Youre on and i cant fix everything, but how can i help . And those are the allies that have really made a huge difference in my career was when i was just really struggling. I might i had my third child who had colic for about a year and my dad was in hospice and my manager at the time said to me, i said, i just dont know if i can do this. And he, you know, look at your peers, all of the executives we work with, they all have ways to stay at home, including myself. And i thought, whats and he goes, you cant do this alone. Like, why do you expect to be able to this when if you look at a lot of our peers and he named a bunch of people, hes like, this is what their life does. And i guess i had never really thought about it, you know, that they had a whole support system. And i was thinking, wow im really family. So one of the things ive been doing is like sharing some of the support i have. And by the way, the interesting feedback is people ask me like, well, dont you feel like you missed your kids childhood . And i read it too much. I read some of these comments. My husband, hes like, no ones ever asked me that. And he works full time. And so i just think theres this double standard. Again, i think most you ive just had incredible male and female sponsors and mentors whove understood that and said the right thing at the right time. And when he said that, hes like, its okay, you take a step back. Let me help you. And so i went and spent time with my in hospice, took some time off, and hes like, why dont you ramp back up into a new team but take your time like. Theres no rush. And that really helps me kind of reintegrate after my third childs and after my fathers death in a way that i just dont know if i could have stuck it out, you know . And i think that those are the ones that are really transformative. And i think just showed so much empathy to for the moment and gave you the same kind of like treated you the same as even like whatever a male colleague would have. Im curious what im like. What help do you have now . How how do you make it all happen . Well, i think that one of the things is the stigmatization and of like, if you have help, youre failing somehow and we see that in my husband, just like when i read him the comments, just thinks its hilarious because, you know, hes the hes an incredible partner. But i told him with each child we had people on my own team, some of whom reported to me or skipped level, reported under me would say, oh, well, are you coming back to work after you give birth . And im like, what . You know, all three kids, three different companies. And these are very progressive companies. I work in california. It is just, you know, its very different. And people act like people ask me all the time, who takes care of your kids . You know, im thinking you so but i mean, how many of you heard that, right . Who are mom . And would you just hear that a lot . And and we just have a double standard. And i think thats one of the big challenges that we have, is that theres a double standard like youre supposed to the successful mom and and do everything and like have a beautiful home. You know, its also expectations that we, like, place on our own way. One of the stats i put in the book was did time you studies with like single moms and married moms, especially married to partners of the opposite sex and they said moms who are married to a partner of an opposite sex do more housework than those who are single moms. I think about that for a second. You have another adult to help you do more like how is that even fair or equal . Its a very odd statistic, but i think a lot of it is own expectations of ourselves, how much we take on the gender roles that we have, but also, you know, really what the household expects of you. And so one of the things that the help i mean, i openly say, you know, when my kids were one of the best things i ever did was used to fight in the morning to get the kids to school because they forgot their book bag, their homework is here. Cant find their shoes like, the whole thing. And and well be late for work because were driving to their different schools. They were going to three different schools and it was so stressful. And finally, our nanny had retired and it was a nanny when when they were young. And i said, can you come in for one hour in the morning cook them breakfast, take them to school. Its the best decision because she got to see them. She was like their third grandmother. She got to see them and spend the morning with them. And we stopped fighting and we were like miserable when we got to work. They were miserable because our parents are yelling at them for losing their shoes. And everybody was so much happier. And i realized that like, is it bad to tell people, hey, i had someone take them to school . Well, you know what . As a mom, i felt really guilty, you know. Well, i maybe i should have been able to do it all, but it made our household much more peaceful. We were not struggling. I had to travel or my husband had to travel, and it just made our lives so much better. And it gave her time with them as well. And so, you know, it was it was amazing. And really, she did that until she passed away. And, you know, she was our kids their whole childhood. And, you know, she was like a part of our. But it was something it was really important to us. And i really feel like, yeah, its embarrassing. I cant serve my kids cereal. But at the same time, the more important thing was i was there for them and not fighting over the shoes and instead there for them when we had to take time off to go to their place or their, you know, music classes and things like that, you were there for them when they really needed you, right . Yeah. I love that. Weve already kind of gone through several pieces of advice that youve already added in the book. And theres a theres a little subtitles as this ten new rules for women at work. What role do you think was like the hardest you for you specifically to learn and how. Tell us a little bit about kind of that story. I think for me it was finding my voice i mean, i really you know, i grew up in a small town in the south looking as i do. And my parents moved to a place they had never been, you know, knew nobody pretty much except for one, one family. And we just, like, grew up in a place where i look like nobody else and everyone just made comments about us, like people would come up to us in the streets and say, go back to where you came from. And i would joke, new york. I was i was six. I didnt know what to talk about, by the way for those of you from new york. Im from queens. Jackson heights. And i just i always thought, okay, im going to get out of this town. Im going to go back to new york someday. Right. And i spent my whole childhood, from the time i was in first grade, all the way to graduating high school, and i thought, you know, i want to leave this place. But the thing was, i realized for so many years that i just didnt draw attention to myself. If i was just really quiet, then nobody would make comments about me being the other or the foreigner or like, you know. And so i just learned to be really, really quiet and just put my head down and the work. And the thing is, i think a lot of children of immigrants hear that right. Your head down, do the work, dont draw attention to yourself. And i learned that lesson way too well. And then you get to engineering schools. So i went to duke and i got an engineering degree. It works really well there too, because doing problems thats, you know, we used to do problem sets and silence at the library with your group of people and you just like, check each others work and then you go to class. And it was amazing. And then i got to the workplace and its like not at all like that. And so the thing is, the thing that gets you to a certain place will not get you to the next place at some point, and its going to stop working. And for me, i realized, it stopped working when i got into consulting. So youre going consulting . It is like Client Service talk to, you know, spend time with people. I was like, what is this . And then after that, what we did was, you know, i went to Business School and like 30, 50 of your classes and Business School is class participation. Like, oh my gosh, what am i going to do . I just i had to train myself to be a different person. And it was very, very hard. And when you get to the workforce and i shared this in todays post, i actually post on a substack and its like the secret bias no one talks about and that is the bias towards people who are able to speak and articulate answers and kind of shoot the breeze on a dime right. Speak intelligently, not have to process things. And i was terrible at that. And it took me years and years of trainings get past that. But it was also years and years where i felt like i was comfortable in my own skin to actually share my story because for so long i was so quiet. It worked so well, and then it doesnt work. And you go, what do you what am i doing wrong . And so i do think that, you know, for each of you, theres reasons why you are the way you are. And then when you hear feedback, you have to unpack. Do i listen to this or do i not . Is this, you know, is this fixed . Is something i can change and is it beneficial for me to change and . I think for each of us, for me, it was finding voice to be willing to speak up if you had told me ten years ago, i write this book, i would have thought, youre insane, you know . And so i think you evolve much more than you think you do if youre very intentional about it. I love that. I think there is also a story. I think sheryl had actually shared as well about kind of like the one time she gave you feedback too and was like that you stop fighting now like youve won you do not have to carry this like chip on your shoulder. How did i impact of how you sort of transformed yourself and really owned your story. Well i think that the thing that really propels me and i told the story of my growing up in kind of a neutral term, but i was bullied lot, you know, as a child because of who i but it looked like the fact the food aids like everything about me and i just remember saying im going to leave this place again to show them im going to succeed. Im never going to look back right. And that was the chip on my shoulder. And it worked like got me into i got a scarlet graduate, number one in my class. I got a scholarship to college. I graduated with, you know, high honors in college. I went to like boston consulting group, which is a prestigious consulting firm. Then i went to stanford and i was like, okay, this is working, right . You did all the things. You checked off all the boxes. I showed them like i came from the small town as a nobody. And im going to make myself some money. And then i realized that that chip on my shoulder was that was rocket fuel was burning me up, too. So, you know, i go through my career and then after an executive review where we were finally showing and Product Market fit for this really difficult we were working on and i made some comment and actually shes like you can stop fighting now youve won and i just looked at her and i was like, what the thing was that fight that me there was like, no working and in fact it was burning. My relationship. It was making it difficult to work with other people and i had to figure out what do i do with this . Because was right. And it took me a long time to actually unpack all walkers the drove me here and how is this going to you know if i dont change this what is it going to keep me from and it was i wish i could say overnight like i some light bulb came on but it force me to really wrestle a lot of the things that had you all these things had i thought had made me a success and then it stopped being useful way longer before i was able to figure that out. I love all these stories are so much more. I feel like we could be talking about but we do want to open up two ways. I want to ask one one more question and then were going to turn it over to to the audience the last couple of years have been wild, to say the least. I mean, were talking about doing your first inperson event, but, you know, i think its also been a struggle for so many of us trying to find ways to like balance, you know, this brave new world that i think were in. What advice would you give to folks here and to anybody in terms of like how to navigate sort of this new reality . If youre feeling overwhelmed with everything thats going on in the world, how what would you tell them . You know, i. I ask everybody, whenever we we get questions this to think back to two and a half years ago and how if i told you the last two and a half years were going to happen, what you have thought you would have thought this is crazy if i told you . Yeah. You know, watching me working from home, theres going to be like a pandemic. This thing keep going, and then im going to have monkeypox to add on top of that. Its just, you know, and then, you know, everything in the world is going to change. Schools are going to close and people stop traveling. And then everything going to be upended. I think you would go, wait like that was on. No ones being it was a no ones bingo card. Right. It funny so many fiction writers and im part of that these Writers Group so like if we had written that they would have laughed us out of the room because thats insane and thats exactly what happened and say you know, one of the things that i think is hard is we have we are way more resilient than we think we are. But we also absorb so much more than we thought. And we dont really acknowledge how traumatic that could be. Like, are your kids just like suddenly dumped into online schooling when they were unprepared for the teachers . You know, having to deal with like, you know, vulnerable parents who have cancer and trying to keep them safe at the same time youre trying to like, you know, continue the work of your company when things are, you know, the upheaval thats gone on and unemployment and everything else, and then inflation like everything has been just like up and down. And i think the one thing we have to acknowledge is that while were more resilient, weve faced more than, you know, people do in ten, 20 years. In the last two and a half years. And i think burnout is really real. And we have to acknowledge that. And i think also we have to process it because sometimes we go, okay, well keep going. Next thing next thing you know. But actually i think giving yourself permission to process it, to take a step back and say this, what happens . And heres what collective weve gone through and heres how we want to craft the future. I think we just everyones just soldiering on like, you know, okay, the next thing and the next thing actually, i think processing it has been really helpful for me. I was on the verge of burnout. I didnt recognize it and actually my coach reached out to me. Shes like, you need to schedule a sabbatical, right . Youre on the verge of burnout. Im like, what do you mean . And in the minute i was on a sabbatical im like, oh my gosh, i was so burnt out right that you cant you cant see because youre the boiling frog and you dont see the little temperature meter right outside someone needs to tell you. And i think that we collectively, society on the verge of burnout and we just keep soldiering on. The next thing is just piling. And i think us taking a collective step back and saying, hey, theres been a lot and we need companies, we need communities to come together and say its okay to take time to process this and to take a step back to take away schedule your sabbaticals people you have time off like take your vacation. I think we you know its also really tempting with remote just constantly work so hard to shut off too youre like a part time 36. I got to keep going. Like i used to be. You werent in the office, so you didnt show up to the meeting and nothing terrible happens. But now people are like, oh, theres just a dial in and youre like, you know, you feel like you are obligated. I think mentally taking taking break is really important. And your Companies Want that from you and your leaders want that. You and your teams want you to give them permission to do that. To me, saying thank you, deb. All right. Well take some questions now. There is emily is in the back there with a microphone. So if you have a question come on up, actually and speaking to the microphone, oh, skip over here. Okay. Hi, deb, love your substack love everything you write super excited about the book. So kind of talking by remote. One of the things i felt before the pandemic was super confident, super strong. Going into a room and knowing myself two and a half years later, i just kind of let things happen to me. I feel like my voice is not there as much. The political game happens and i kind of just like, all right, well, heres a ride im on trying to find my confidence back again, hoping this book can help with that as well. But what is your advice for us women or anyone really to be able to harness that power, especially you when youre behind the screen all day . You know, its really interesting statistics around zoom. They said that women a lot less in zoom, which is interesting they did time measure and. Part of it is just its so hard to jump in. Its so hard to kind find the space and conversations. And also studies have shown that men feel much more comfortable interrupting each other. And by the way, the only other group that feels really comfortable interrupting each other, like really senior women. So senior women and men feel totally okay interrupting everybody and. Everybody else feels like maybe i shouldnt. Its really hard to break in. And i think thats part of the issue with zoom. One of the things is i think its not just, you know, sometimes we say the you problem, but thats not true. We need to and this is why i wrote the article i wrote today, which was about the bias, like we should actually presume go around the room, ask people for input ahead of time, like we can change the way we do things. We dont just say, well, were just taking a group of people who used to be in a room together and just like sticking zoom is exactly the same. We should learn to adapt our processes to support those who are more quiet. We should those who need more time to process. I remember when you know one woman i asked her why didnt she speak up more . Shes like one of those brilliant pms. And she said, im processor. And by the time i get to the answer the conversation has moved on. And thats how many of you felt that . I used to feel that a ton. And it took me a long time to work through that. But for her, shes one of the most thoughtful pms ive worked with. But that just it kills me to hear. And she was so much less influential because her work was objectively amazing. But her presentation, like she just wasnt fast on her feet and she was judged harshly for that. And i think that thats why i think Companies Need to like the way we do things like the teams that were on what if we change the process where everything is done by pre read first what if we did things where we go around the room and people actually put in their input on a survey and then you know, and then we ask people during your call on people so that they have space. So its not just a you problem, its actually collective problem. Right now were just expecting everyone to solve it. We always tell people, well, if you just did x, but not everyone can do that and not everyone has that, you know, has the ability or desire to interrupt other people. And so i do think for us, you know, as allies, one thing we should say is, hey, i think she had something to say or oh, she told me her idea before the meeting. Maybe you be really great to call on her, like, really kind of lifting other up and supporting each other. How do you form . One of the things we formed was a chat group of the three, three very senior women at facebook and we used to just chat like, hey, you know, if something was said, i would say we would support her, you know, and would support each other during the conversations and it really helped us feel more confident as well. Great question. Anybody else should in the back. Can i ask on the ancestry question . Is that all right . I apologize. The audience that some of them many of the people might not be familiar what im addressing here. But i just want your opinion on a couple of things to reclaim the records. Are you familiar with that . If you are, im happy to have conversation about your story offline, if you like. Sure. Yeah. Okay. Sure. Thank you. Yes. I do have. I was wondering kind of like over the years, like im sure you faced a lot of difficulties too. Like what were some of the top things that kept you inspired or even like sometimes when you have topics in your blog, kind of what inspires those topics . You know, whats really interesting is when i first started, so i have this thing where every new year i write out a set of resolutions and i have a challenge for myself. So my last year at the beginning of the year, january 1st, it was to start a blog. I dont know why i thought to do this, but i was like, oh, it would really fun. And so i was going to write every week and i like i made it to 50 posts, which is pretty good. And then this year it was like, you know, its a skill it and to get the book shipped but you know what what i realized there was when you actually have to fill 50 something slots you figure it out just like if you have to hit Product Market fit with your product or you have to hit some growth target, you always figure it out as a peer. And so sometimes i think the thing, the impetus you need is the challenge, not the output. And so for you, im sure youve signed up for stretch goals, but once you have a stretch goal in front of you, you go instead of saying, well, i can grow 1 or 2 , you doing x . I as executive, maybe a product review. Somebody goes, well, what if, you know, what would it take to ten x that growth rate and suddenly youre like well if we put marketing behind it, if we did an acquisition, we did x and suddenly youre opening your eyes to new opportunities. And i think the same thing is true of Something Like this where when i thinking how would even fill 50 post and by the way, i have like 50 other posts i havent posted there, half written. And so its because like as im going through the day, as im talking to people, i take notes and im like, oh, that was a really great observation. I should write something about that. Or i get asked questions. People send me emails and im like, oh, instead of replying, this one person, i could just scale it by writing the answer. And so it is that type of thing, which is when you challenge yourself to think differently, the not the one, you know, the 1 growth at the ten. So that grew three. Suddenly you open your product up to opportunities. Your team is much more creative and maybe you dont get that level of investment. Now youve opened up, you know, what is possible and the same thing true of your personal life as well. Other questions. I have maybe something thats like a bit of like a tactical question, but i was just curious something that i think i often face in the workplace is that i look super young and its like, oh, you look young, like you must be an intern and youre like, no, no no, no, not an intern. And im just curious if, like you ever face that or if youve seen other people who face that and how you actually deal with that in the workplace. Because i, i dont think its something you can physically change. So yeah, just curious if youve come across that, you know i do think that a lot of women who who very young and for many years i it was one thing they really helps actually is to someone else say hey did you know that she has ten years of experience in our industry, like having someone else and theyve done studies on this, on professors that men, when they come in to teach, theyre just like, and you rate them. Theyre rated as experts in whatever theyre teaching the women. They would just start teaching. Theyre actually weighted less on the expertise. But if another person comes in it introduces her, theyre waiting equally expert at the met and so i think sometimes just having someone vouch for you like before you go on stage, like having someone introduce you, having someone introduce you at a meeting that you havent been in before and. Say, you know, she was the one behind this idea that were talking about today or having someone introduce to partners, you know, rather than you introducing yourself, hi, you know, work on x, having someone else and. So this is one part of allyship that women can do for each other that uplifting each other up and actually vouching for each other actually creates more credibility for both of you. And so i do think like saying, oh, shes ten years of experience, we can learn from her or, you know, did you know that she put together the whole program for our Program Managers, you know, to teach them how to work with product managers or whatever it is that, you do that kind of, you know support is really powerful. I love that advice. So like very actionable other questions. It have you mentioned having sponsors and mentors in your career and like having that relationship to lean lean in on and for them to help you as a you know, as a lot of us have joined in new jobs and are trying to onboard in a completely remote environment. Any tips on how we might be able to connect and like form connections and relationships that would help us get further. Im sure. Im sure i like are in the same boat as me where its been a bit challenging. I think one of the Biggest Challenges actually for remote work is this issue is that a lot of the connective tissue of our relationship is built not in the meetings but in the meetings outside of the meetings. You know, its the its the water cooler conversation. You about the show. You watch to the chat, you know, as youre walking out of the room, oh, by the way, you know, what did you think of x or did you think that was a good pitch, like getting, you know, all that informal stuff is now. So unless youre sitting there on slack, like chatting with tons of people, youre getting much less fidelity in these relationships. You kind of have much more of a transactional issue. We go to a meeting, you have a conversation, you exit, and its done right and so how do you build connection in other ways . One of those things is, you know, what are the opportunities you have to be in person . What are the offsets that youre doing . What are the ways that you can connect in other ways, in softer ways . Like is a gaming club, you know, board games or do you, you know, so how do you build that connective tissue . Like, you know, at ancestry theres like a wine club. They get together and have wine. Theres like different like theres a pet club where you share pet pictures, but youre actually getting to know people and kind of inform all lives so that when you need to, you actually have the ability to call on someone and say, hey, i can use help with x, but now theyve spent time with you. They know you even if its peripherally through a pet that youre chit chatting about your pets. Its a connection point because what humans need is connection. For me, one thing that happened was i was one of the few people who was a mom and i had like two kids and i had a third child at facebook and. I just, like everyone was super young, i was much older, and it was really weird being there because i had worked at companies that had much neo with lots of parents and i used to post things on my personal facebook and everyone connected through personal facebook and it was like about my kids and i would use hashtag school. And at first i was like, you know, maternal bias, which we talked about is a huge issue. What if they judge me, you know, for that. But then i realized that people would come up to me like, i read your last mommy school post. Its so funny. And now i created a comic strip mommy school dot net if you want to see it. But you know, i used to just take the funny they say post it and the people would actually who didnt have kids so that is hilarious. You know i cant wait to try that with my kids and i realized that for them they were looking for a reason to connect. And it happened to be that i was sharing something about myself. It was kind of humorous and would just like connect with me that way. And it was something i was offline. But the question is, how much are you sharing of yourself if youre just kind of doing the work that is important . But the rest of it is also important. And i think we just are i think were losing a part of because youre losing that informality that actually connects people to each other. One thing thats actually worked for us on the on the topic of like connecting and we do on every friday, we have a cooldown which is just like, you know, we all get on zoom, were just talking about our week and were talking about like what we want to work on next week, but also just like we can plan and we do a thing called three where we just like its like a, you know, like one of those like top lists and you just pick a topic and were all going around like sharing what our top threes are. So like last week i was like top three like nineties movies that you loved watching as a kid. And i think its just like, yeah, creating those moments where you can kind of share more about yourself, learn more about people, even if you arent physically in the same. That you have time for. One more question. If there is anybody out there right. Hi, deb, i love your content. So nervous. So im an aspiring pm. I havent been. I am not a yet a pm. I just want to say or just ask im in and i am in operations. I guess as a stakeholder and you being in product for so what do you think would be beneficial for internal stakeholders like operations or people in client facing teams to know that will help you and help your lives easier on a day to day basis at work because i feel like im trying to do that in my current role and im struggling a little bit. You know, one of the things thats most important in my relationship, theres an operations, as you see. So much more rich customer feedback. You would inundate all the pms to see like the amount, the volume stuff, but one of the best things that ever happened to my team was they were somebody in operations and she was kind of she was how she was a product specialist in the operations team. And she said, you know what, i see something someone else doesnt. She was seeing that a bunch of people reporting they didnt have access to facebook marketplace. And so she went and she gathered the data she asked our data scientists for and she said, hey, more people dont have access to this product than you think. And she actually wrote out a note and it completely transformed the way we looked at the product she eventually became a Program Manager and she moved over to product. But what she did was really incredible because she had this inkling because she could see in the front lines something that no apm could actually ever see because they didnt get those reports right. She aggregated the reports. She was trying to figure out the themes behind it when it got support and she was able to really change how we looked at things. And i think that that is the power. What youre doing is a leverage that so many pms are hungering for that information yet. Right. One thing we heard recently from operations team, i had dinner with some folks, our Member Services team at ancestry did like one of our biggest issues was this whats this login issue . And it was just so helpful to hear it from them because they could feel it because theyre hearing the calls every day and. It was something that we could fix and its something were working on. So i do think that you having the ability to to see the front line information and address it and then, you know, say, heres the data, please prioritize. This opens the door to them. Youre being helpful for you to address it as well. And then beyond that, say, hey, if if i could help you, i could, you know, maybe if theres not an option to do this, i would be happy to kind of step in and help him. The resolution of this this will give you an opportunity to open that door as well. Deb, thank you so much for all of the wisdom that you dropped on us today. Were so thrilled that you could kick off your book tour here in new york city. Were super, super glad that you could stop by. Thank you so much. That theres going to be signing plates over here. So if you came tonight, we have your address. Youll be receiving a book in the mail when it comes out once the date, the ninth. The ninth. So very, very soon and everyone here tonight will get a copy of debs book. So yeah. If you want to stick around and you can get a bookplate signed and chat with deb herself. All right. Thank you again for everyone coming out tonight. Thanks for joining us. My first question is what made you decide to tell your story . Well, i have been asked for about ten years to tell my cancer story and every time i give a speech or something, people said, oh, you need to write a book. And i said, i only want to talk about my cancer stuff because people have been asking for my cancer journal ever since i had chemotherapy. When i got diagnosed with colon cancer. So one of my assistants finally said, we need to really turn this into a book. And one thing led to another. And i wrote it so that i can hopefully inspire people and give them hope. And then the publishers wanted to go beyond