Executive director, vice, Vice President and general counsel of the der corp. A company that owns and manages retail properties. Each of the witnesses written statements will be entered in the record in its entirety and i would ask each of you summarize his or her testimony five minutes or less to help you stay within that time there is a light switch and from green to yellow indicates you have one minute to conclude and then five minutes have expired. Before i recognize the witnesses it is the tradition that you be sworn in. For those who cant stand do you solemnly swear the testimony youre about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god . Let the record reflect the witnesses answered in the affirmative. I would now recognize the first witness and i would turn the microphone on if you pull it close to you. I live i i live in california. Im here to express my concerns with the disabilities act and how it is being used. I understand. Ive been disabled all my life and im grateful for president george bush to recognized the need to do when he signed it into the law. The public buildings should have a federal entrance door and tables should be high enough for wheelchairs to sit but eating areas should be just for the disabled people. And eating area shouldnt have a sign that says for wheelchairs only. Buildings that allow people with disabilities allow people to become more independent and selfsufficient. For me, i appreciate the businesses but personally it doesnt matter if it is at 37 inches or 32 inches. All business have to recognize the need for all customers. For example many have been able [inaudible] many Business Owners are not aware of the changes or regulations related. Not all businesses are up to date, up to code with the guidelines of the regulation was due to a lack of information from the city and the states regarding the changes. My mother has two doughnut shops and has been sued at both locations for the violations. It isnt fair for business to receive a law firm that is out of our city and county limits. If it is inside the building if they have steps in facilities that are too narrow. Now that the facility isnt up to code therefore the particular businesses should be corrected. It was built in a 2000. I would know, im there. They should have 30 days to correct minor violations in 120 days. The carpet has never become entangled in my wheelchair. If the regulation remains the same and requires business to remove carpets or mats for the inconvenience of the disabled people then they will be creating a hazard for the ablebodied person. We in the disabled community shouldnt feel this under the society. It creates bitterness between the customer and the business. I do not need a sign in to inform me that i am disabled and where i should sit. They should concentrate on accessible curbs and ramps that do not wrap around the building and at the back of doors. Generally when i enter through the back door i feel like businesses are embarrassed or ashamed to associate with me because of my physical limitations. This is understandable to a point because there are a few disabled individuals including lawyers that make it their personal mission in life to collect money from businesses that theyve never been to. It seems they think they are only helping the disabled community and moreover, they are separating the disabled community and Able Community causing them to dislike americans. This makes the rest of smallBusiness Owners who are sl Business Owners who are trying to earn an honest living look bad. Through my life people are very uncomfortablcomfortable and offr kindness to. I also have a voice if i need assistance i can ask for help. I do not want Business Owners to cringe when they see me enter the establishment. I was at the State Capitol and had to use the restroom. I asked if i could use the restroom and they asked me if im going to buy a drink. My aide responded that she doesnt drink but she needs to go to the restroom. No they didnt give me permission to use the restroom. Since the lawyers are going to sue the Small Business they are posting signs on the window no public restrooms. I would like to see that federal laws be fair and not taken advantage of or misused by people that know the law such as lawyers and certified access specialist persons. Inspectors should inform the public of the new malls and changes. If this continues many businesses will be forced to shut down and there will be many empty buildings in the communities because they dont have the money. This is wrong. I noticed a very limited damages for certain minors or technical violations. In my opinion it matters. Thank you. I now recognize the second witness. Is the microphone on . Would you turn the microphone on a. Of you may have to bring it closer to you. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. Its an honor to appear before you to share my story. I am a Second Generation attorney from georgia. My parents migrated from india in the 1980s and about their first hotel in the. I spent the first eight years of my life on the third floor of days in a place i called home. My family owned several hotels that employed nearly 400 people. I personally am of two hotels in Atlanta Georgia that amount to nearly 150 guest rooms and employ dedicated employees. Im also here representing the Asian American hotel owners association. They employ over 600,000 American Workers are counting to 10 million in payroll annually. Recently Small Businesses have come under attack by unscrupulous attorneys and professional plaintiffs seeking to make a quick buck. To advance th the goals and secs manipulated some of the most important civil rights laws in the country. The americans with disabilities act. I was sued for allegations in the violations at my hotel in atlanta. I was supposed to think a guest in my hotel was denied service area i contacted the general manager to learn the plaintiff never stayed at our hotel nor is there any evidence that he or his attorney visited the property. The claims and complaints were vague and general and among several issues he stated a failure to provide accessible entry. My Swimming Pool had been closed since the day i purchased it. Its empty and covered with a tarp. Was i being sued for providing entry to a part that has always been closed to the public . I found out that the suit nearly 100 businesses and each one is almost identical. In fact the same plaintiffs and the same attorneys and my father with the same complaint as one of his hotels. Its clear they have no desire to stand the properties and the attorneys are using him as a proxy. I can either fight the suit, subject line employees and families to intrusion litigation and pay thousands of dollars or settle and pay his attorney thousands of dollars in which the attorney will likely be the only one with the financial gain. We cannot afford to pay out a settlement after settlement and defend the suits aimed at preying on our fears. They are targeted because so many are minorities. Minorities. Some would imply tha invite himf violating his civil rights law and would send the signal that my hotel is substandard and i do not care for my guests and it could impact my decision to finance Additional Properties and grow my business. It is a nowin solution. We need to find a solution that keeps them from dishonest purposes. Hr 3765 the education reform act is a vehicle that balance is important protections with affording small Business Owners the opportunity to address any issues that may exist. It requires a detailed description to provide notice for the honor to recognize and address the areas of concern. It will also provide a collaborative solution to promote accessibility. Mr. Chairman and members thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today. I appreciate your listening to how i am an attorney targeted me and several others to export under accessibility under the ada. We are in the business of hospitality to provide a welcoming and comfortable and enjoyable environment for all of our guests. I ask you to consider my story when evaluating 365. Please help protect smallbusinessmallbusiness ownet want to run free from the fear the next envelope legal but might be a lawsuit that closes the door to our hotel. I would now recognize the third witness. Is that microphone close to you turn on . Mr. Chairman and Ranking Members of the subcommittee, im the executive director of the National Council on independent living. The National Grassroots organization run by people with disabilities we go by michael. It includes people with disabilities for independent living, statewide independent Living Council councils and otr disabilities rights organizations. We advance the independent living and the rights of people with disabilities and we envision a world in which people are valued equally and participate fully. Centers for independent living address discrimination and barriers that exist through direct advocacy. These are sometimes architectural but more often reflect attitudes and principles that have been reinforced for generations. They do toward people from working, living in poverty and unjustly detained in institutions. As my long Life Experience has proven with increased opportunities for individuals with disabilities can claim their civil rights and participate in their communities in the same way people without disabilities to. I broke my neck in an accident july 261970 and ive used a wheelchair ever since. Coincidentally the americans with disabilities act was signed into law july 26, 1990 by president george h. W. Bush exactly 20 years to the day after i got my disability. Therefore i have 20 years of experience prior to the act and now a 26 year i have 26 years lh a disability post ada. They have changed the face of the globe although im honored to be here im here testifying in opposition to the bill. As the congressman knows the amendments ar that were passed d signed into law passed because people with disabilities, bipartisan lawmakers and businesses worked together. The efforts to make it harder to bring the title iii lawsuits never followed the same process and never enjoyed support from people with disabilities were the organizations that support them or that represent them. People with disabilities dont want more lawsuits, we want more accessibility. Adding the requirement wont take the phenomena go away. It simply sends the message that they dont have to worry about complying until they get a letter and in most parts of this country it is difficult to find a lawyer that is interested in bringing a complaint against the public accommodation because they cant collect damages. When it was enacted as a compromise between the disability and the Business Community they gave up the ability to obtain damages by allowing attorneys fees. Unfortunately there are still businesses and companies who have yet to comply with this law even after 26 years. The problem here that these bills try to address have little to do if anything with the ada. It doesnt provide for damages. The settlement or court orders can only involve attorneys fees and in the states that some of the witnesses are from the statutes like california that has been mentioned of our people to get damages. Thats why california changed the law. Images arent allowed and there is no need to change the residents with disabilities act. Theres lots of information out there. Theres lots of Technical Assistance people can get on how to comply and theres even a phone line you can call to get information and theres a website. Theres lots of assistance to businesses who want to comply with the law. They dont require businesses to do anything that would be considered an undue burden which means it isnt readily achievable that is readily achievable and can be accomplished without much difficulty or expense and i just want to say some of the stuff that has been talked about building stuff. The state i come from, idaho weve changed the Building Code so that when people do get a Building Permit they can be built according to the americans with disabilities act and it really gives people the range they have to put stuff into like for instance i cant fit under the table and thats why it allows for the rangers instead of numbers that have to be met. So with that i know that my time is running out in closing i would like to recognize the motion and with that, thank you very much. Thank you and welcome. We will now recognize the fourth and final witness. As this the microphone on and ce clicks good morning mr. Chairman, Ranking Member and members of the subcommittee. Im the executive Vice President and general counsel. Ive been in practice for almost 30 years in general counsel since 2003. We are a New York Stock Exchange trust and the owner for 350 Properties Around the country in puerto rico and have over 113 million square feet. Our tenants are some o tenets ot recognized regional and local retailers. Im here to testify on behalf of the interNational Council of Shopping Centers and the Global Trade Association for the Shopping Center industry with over 70,000 members and 100 companies that represent a wide variety of owners, managers and other professionals related to real estate. First and foremost let me say they support both the letter and the intent. We recognize and applaud the positive impact it had on the society. We also support 3765 introduced by the congressman and cosponsored by congressman peterson as ways to strengthen accessibility can the primary goal. Frankly i think the legislation we are talking about today is misunderstood and theres quite a bit of agreement related to the legislation. As mr. Buckland noted people dont want lawsuits, they wont accessibility. We couldnt agree more. We all share the goal of more accessibility. We want full compliance and we want it faster with less cost and with more resources devoted to improving accessibility. As an industry are interests are aligned with the goal. First of all its the right thing to do. Many of us have experienced the challenges faced by family and friends who are disabled. Second, its in our economic best interest to do so. Theres a misunderstanding and misconception that businesses dont support or want to comply. Let me be very clear more people visiting the Shopping Centers and properties is a good thing. We work with our tenets to find ways to encourage mor more, nots people to come to our properties and we spend millions of dollars each year to accomplish this. Let me be clear on an area theres also agreement that relates to the bad apples. For those persons that fraud they deserve the full weight of enforcement if they choose to ignore compliance and a lawsuit and the threat is the only way to force compliance then so be it. If a simple notice is the fastest and cheapest way to solve the unintended areas of noncompliance why would we not encourage that . Not everyone agrees. Lawsuits by a small group of lawyers have skyrocketed 63 increase from 2013 to 2014 over 4700 lawsuits filed. Unfortunately there are some whose interests are not aligned. These attorneys take a different approach. Approach. The title first and ask questions later and they soon, settle and move on. Their interest is not in improving the accessibility but rather only earning attorneys fees. Many never visit the property and can tell you what violations might be there and never bothered to confirm whether any alleged violations have been resolved. So why do we support this legislation . Because it gives a 60 day window to respond without an immediate lawsuit. It gives 120 days for the opportunity to cure any potential violation. I think we can all agree this is the most efficient and costeffective way to achieve compliance. And lets not forget that enhances Education Training and encourages the use of alternative resolution to speed up enforcement. Lets also be clear what the legislation doesnt do. It doesnt stop the right to sue for noncompliance. It doesnt limit the ability to cover the attorneys fees and it doesnt change the department of justice enforcement rights for state law. It will encourage compliance and stop the tactics of a few. With that i thank you for the opportunity to testify today and i look forward to answering any questions that you might have. Thank you for your testimony will proceed on the fiveminutee rule for the questions. The bill requires a plaintiff to get a Business Owner. As a Business Owner as someone disabled do you believe that its fair to the disabled to require the notice and opportunity to fix the violation before it can be filed . I believe that its fair because there are so many new updates in the regulation for example there were seven items unnecessary and the speaker notes. Its simple i wasnt aware of the regulation. So if you are making changes, let us know and this wouldnt happen. If the community and the citizen knows, this wouldnt happen. I would like to say something. I dont think that youre building here is accessible. I went to the womens restroom and its not accessible and you create and make the law into your building is unsafe so how do you expect a normal citizen to follow your rules if youre not doing it yourself . Thank you. Critics of what is said of efforts to allow for the cure period prior to convincing a lawsuit have argued the Property Owners have a legal obligation to ensure that the property is accessible. They argue that the notice and cure legislation would create a further incentive for Property Owners not to comply until they are sued. How would you respond to that criticism . I would respond by saying the fact that they are having an issue in the grace period to begin with shows and implies they are not here to promote accessibility. All of us here support the americans with disabilities and we promote it and we think its great for america in fact we want to fix any issues because ultimately that attracts customers to do business so we are automatically incentivized so the notice and cure provision would help us fix any areas of concern and promote accessibility versus just the attorneys filing lawsuits to get attorneys fees. Hispanic has there been an increase in obligation and if so can you provide the committee with some background on that increase . I would be happy to. The number of cases has grown dramatically the last few years. Frankly that is the driving need for the legislation. This is both a growing and expanding problem and continues to grow as i mentioned in my opening remarks theres been a six t. 5 increase from 2013 to 2014 and the numbers continue to grow and grow. In particular there are certain states where the cases are growing the fastest in california go to florida, texas, arizona. They have 40 of the lawsuits coming to the populations of this is an ongoing and continuing problem. Hispanic i will now recognize the Ranking Member. Hispanic is the fact that california has the state law could this not be the reason there are so many of the cases in california . No, i dont think so. Obviously, its been in effect for 25 years. We all would agree that its had a dramatic impact across the country so much so that it is just a part of the way of doing business. In our industry it becomes second nature. We are constantly updating properties and ensuring with them. The issues we are having our very specific why do you think california is particularly of the tedious . Thats the question. I cant tell you exactly why some states over other spike until you in texas, arizona, california and florida arent those the states that you mentioned . There are cases across the country. In asking why those were more than the others. Those are the states that allow damages. Hispanic how many others allow damages do you know . It seems like thats what theyve got in common. Thats not a national problem. You grasp that, do you not . The fact that those states over fouarefour of ten and that thatt be the unique factor that causes the lawsuits and not something in general . My properties in georgia and the same attorney and plaintiff filed the same lawsuit 100 tim times. Let me ask you this. You heard what i was saying about the possibility of damages for the folks that dont comply if there was a notice provision. Do you agree that there needs to be some type of a shtick for the folks that dont comply within the period . The whole idea is that you would be able to file the lawsuit. Thats already available. Shouldnt there be something extra . Such as sanctions, damages, some amount exactly. But remember the same time we are also trying to run our business. But im talking about the bad guys so you would agree that would be something that would make your proposal better . Let me start on the damages issue. First of all, we are not talking about making changes we are talking about legislation that is narrow and focused. The particular abuse for the mechanism. Second im not sure that the damages will reduce the problem in fact it may encourage them. More damages mean more lawsuits which means more attorneys fees and more time and resources. But its only for the people that didnt comply with the program. Your program doesnt have an official purposes but i can see the benefit of getting compliance. But for the folks that dont comply the damages and to be a problem for the good guys it will only be for the bad guys and they always have to be punished. I think the assumption is that this is only a damaged issue. Its probably a damaging issue because of the litigation time talking about another level to make people comply. If this incentivizes lawyers from being involved in the process that will result in less notice of actual problems. We need to do something that helps the good guys but not the bad guys. With all due respect i dont think this inhibits the enforcement i think it actually helps enforcement and heres w why. Theres no other statute that requires notice to fix the problem for you can bring suit but they are wanting to put it in this one. I will give you a couple examples. I was at Virginia Beach there is a timeshare and if we sat through the presentation they would give you some reward in those to be able to go on a whale watching tour so we sat through the presentation, me, my wife and my son. They gave us our tickets and by the way i couldnt have purchased any of the timeshares. They are all inaccessible. Not a single timeshare didnt have a step in front of it so they are all inaccessible so then we go to the whale watching tour and they tell me they dont teach peopltake people with when their tour. I asked are you aware of the americans with disabilities act and he said that doesnt comply to us. I said where is the manager and he said im the manager. I said you still dont think it applies to you and he said no. So when i got home i thought to be talked to the department of justice and we went to where you work it out between you. We did that. Now they take disabilities people. Another one that happened very recently is there busy Business Association in washington, d. C. That i went to. I gave them informational resources and checke check backh them in about two and a half months later to see if they made any progress and i got no response so i waited for another two weeks and sent another email asking if they made any progress and no response. I did that three times, so then i made a phone call, no message or response by phone call. Thats most of the responses you get when you notify people theres a problem you dont get any return. That is what has happened to me over and over. Thank the witnesses for the testimony here today. I am just thinking about how the americans with disabilities act in a way changed my life and i want to put this narrative into the record. I have been to have been in the only public building in the community that was Wheelchair Accessible after the passage of the ada so they asked me what you be the host of the Republican Caucus in your community and i said sure im happy to open up my doors and help people into the night became the chairman and now here i am in congress. So i just slip that and i dont know how many different implications there are im sure that its affected your life more than mine but its ironic if the meeting had never taken place who knows what i would be doinwe would bedoing today. So i wanted to ask a if you coulview couldbe brief in your r 20 years prior to the ada in 26 years wheelchair after words you probably didnt see the immediate results because we have a new construction that took place and refurbishing that took place so i dont have any doubt that its changed a lot of accessibility. The question back then was do we require compliance only on new construction or also existing buildings and facilities and i recall making Wheelchair Accessible and im wondering why didnt we think about that when we built the sidewalk in the first place it was a huge oversight on the part of our society now to see how simple that part could have been but what do you think it would have been like today if it complied that was voluntary what do you think we would have made in the last 26 years . If you walk around this town most if we hadnt applied to the existing structures required to comply. And these buildings especially in my neighborhood it would be different for different reasons. We hav have a lot of new sidewas and curbs cuts that would have been done but i just want to ask in your perspective you mentioned that theres a coffee and paste you said four years havent been in the facilities. What does the list of plaintiffs look like when you have a lawyer with the suit suits what is thet on each of those . In my case it is juson plaintiff said hes using that to fish out of their properties in the area. If you looked at the plaintiffs i and the other lawsuits are filed by the same attorney in some of the cases or all of them . I mentioned my father received at th the same lawsuit commencing number of pages at his property. But what is the likelihood of that the same plaintiff has also been utilized by the same attorney and a number of other cases in addition to you and your father . Stomach there is a likelihood and theres also other plaintiffs and attorneys. You can have one doing 100 properties using the same attorney and he may want to settle 100 properties and to average 500 that is a lot of money. Im trying to get the concept of how this works you have an attorney, hotel chasing attorney and he says i have a potential plaintiff in going to contact him and he can go together and now we will file potentially 100 lawsuits you be the plaintiff, i will be the attorney and we will collect at the expense of the business and never had the chance of a notice to cure or to know that they were potentially out of compliance. I look at that and what is the likelihood that the plaintiff had never been in the building before the suit was filed . Each case berries. I looked back one year to check the reservations and there was no record of that person ever staying at our hotel. Would you concur with the testimony youre experienced . Yes on that particular day they sued three locations in our city, the same person and he doesnt live in the city and that particular day i wasnt at the shop. I came back from doing my errands and i got a package and asked everybody who is this person. I even asked a medical facility that does provide wheelchairs just to make sure hes in the register and they dont even know who he is and recently they did try to investigate. He is an able bodied. He goes to places and uses wheelchairs to get what he does. Would you say thats broad . That is fraud. We need to stop this. In this facility please, go sue them, that would apply. But give us a chance like i. , myself. We dont have any barriers in our passivity, no barriers just because we dont have the information that you folks change, the lawyers have no right if there is a barrier please. I would now recognize the Ranking Member for five minutes. Can i begin by asking unanimous consent to enter into the record 14 letters from organizations that have a variety of objections to the measure that we are examining today the consortium for citizens disabilities, paralyzed veterans of america, the National Leadership conference on civil and human rights and plenty of others, could i ask unanimous consent they take strong exception to this miniature and i would ask that these letters be included in the record. Without objection. Thank you mr. Chairman. I wanted to just ask if the testimony raised any objections in terms of your experience as someone thats disabled. The whole issue around the written notice and you have to wait a certain time, all that stuff like i said in my testimony i think that while incentivize businesses do not do anything until they get a lett letter. I also think that just naming the number of lawsuits doesnt mean its a bad thing if those businesses were out of compliance then why is that a problem that they got sued for breaking the law . I dont quite understand that so there was no mention about whether or not they were valid complaints so im not sure this results in being a bad thing. Would be helpfu it be helpfue committee knew what the results of all of those lawsuits were . I think it would and i also think the department of justice could provide the committee with some information of how many complaints theyve received and what the complaints were about and how the complaints were resolved and that sort of stuff. Im hoping we might be able to follow through on the suggestion in terms of getting a little bit more detail. We have the four witnesses here this morning and youve are the only one that is opposed to this measure so i wanted to ask you what does the notification mean for the private enforcement of the ada and what would happen if enforcement is left only to the attorney general if private lawyers stop bringing cases . What would happen in our ability to file suit then we have less enforcement and as i mentioned before they will wait until we get a letter. Our experience has been as i mentioned its difficult to find attorneys that will take cases except for the states that allow damages and so i think it is more of a state legislation issue then the americans with disabilities act. I do, too. Proponents know of a precinct notification and argue that its reasonable to give businesses the opportunity to cure or a violatioaviolation before the lt commences. But how might such a notification scheme affect voluntary compliance . It would be in the ability to make others comply because he would have the waiting period notificatioedification of this e attorneys. Why do they need to be notified . The americans with disabilities act is out there and theres information how you can comply. Therthere are ten centers one in each region of the country and they have expertise on the act and what it requires a. They should be proactive. They know the law is there. I think thats a very good response and youve answered all my questions very appropriately and i yield back the balance of my time. I now recognize the gentleman from florida for five minutes. Thank you mr. Chairman. The americans with disabilities act change our society for the better both literally and figuratively it opened up the doors of public life that have been closed for too long and i believe any efforts we undertake to address abuses in the current law have to protect the progress made and continue to ensure our society is open to everyone. The goal that we share is widespread compliance rich are getting older constructions so its buil built inclusively froe start has always been the guiding principle. I appreciate the original compromise was designed to balance the accessibility with the desire to make the businesses analyze in this endeavor rather than our adversaries and i dont want to upset the balance that makes it harder to Work Together for the common goal towards compliance but we have to exercise strict oversight to achieve the progress. Thats what it is meant to provide and if the abuses in the process work against those goals than it requires us to stop and pay attention. In florida which we talked about earlier in my own state more than one in five claims filed originated in the Southern District of florida. Businesses have to retain the right to do the right thing and it has to be an incentive for them to do the right thing. For honest but if he factors that are making easily correctable small fixes, things that would take a few minutes to remedy we have to have a process that allows them to make the fixes to adjust the grab bar and hang up a coat hook and to do it quickly without a lawsuit. I dont take the idea lightly. It should be difficult. It should show businesses are in partnership in creating a society that is accessible and is welcoming to everyone. The public life is for everyone and we want a society where Small Businesses can thrive. Ive been told some of the worst plaintiffs dont even bother to follow up to see if the interactions have been corrected which tells me the complaints are often about extracting money than making the passivity more accessible. Thbusinesses pay between 5,000 o 10,000 take complete advantage. What has been the agreement post settlement . Im sorry to see that its virtuallsay that itsvirtually t of the problem. We spend millions of dollars ensuring the properties are compliant and we have millions of dollars invested and then we have attorneys essentially that come to us with a handout not knowing. They dont have specifics and they never bothered to follow up as long as you pay the suit and as a followup i would mention both in your district there are press reports and there was one this week the of a plaintiff fig a thousand lawsuits. In response to the reference of the lawsuits in california theyve passed two pieces to try to curb the abuse even in the damages provision that he thinks will actually help there are abuses going on so california passed legislation as well to limit the abuse that is occurring. Isnt there a difference between a Business Owner who refuses to include a required number of handicap spaces or refuses to make the restrooms accessible and a Business Owner that runs a business to has followed all of the Technical Assistance as best as he or she could and the grab bar is 2 inches too high a paper towel holder is a couple inches off the over the line on the handicap parking space that there is drawn strictl slightly. Theres there is a difference bn them is in there and dont we want the people come the bad actors to actually have to do whats necessary to give the lawsuits are required to get them to do it shouldnt be required to Business Owner that used good faith to comply the opportunity to fix something when it might take five minutes instead of making them pay five or 10,000 when the lawsuit is filed . With all due respect, if the only issue is the grab bar is 2 inches off, business fixes that and unless you are in a state with damages there is no money paid out a. Maybe i am misunderstanding but the stories ive heard from the businesses where one in five of the cases are filed the story i heard from the guy that runs the shop who shared another story with me, he got hit with a lawsuit for one of these mistakes. Hes used all that is to try to comply and youre right hes going to raise it by the couple of inches and its going to cost him 10,000 in legal fees which is a cost he never should have had to incur. Unless he is somehow off against the original complaint why would there be attorneys fees . Because the suit filed before he even knows what the issue is said to get rid of that you end up selling it to a. Theres no one on the committee that fights harder to keep the courtroom doors open than i do. But in this situation all we are looking for is the opportunity for the Small Business owner to be able to exercise all good faith and has only tried to do the right thing to continue without being forced to pay an amount of money given the opportunity to fix it and they well. I appreciate the panel for being here. Its an important discussion. This concludes todays hearing and without objection all members will have five days to set thei up their initial questions for the witnesses were additional materials for the record. I want to thank the witnesses and the members in the audience for being here. The hearing is adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] parkinsons is a brain disease, so that was a nonsensical question. But, what i really meant obviously was a thinking come is ithis going to affect my thinking, so that became pretty important and i asked whats going to happen and he said he was trying to tell me it wasnt such a big deal. He said you may lose your edge and i thought thats how i earn a living. Its why i have my friends and maybe why i have my wife. Book festivals of any authors will be featured including Annette Gordon reed, and williams and james rison and more. Convicted murderer shock us and gore talks about his experiences in prison and when he was released