Transcripts For CSPAN2 Hearing On Uncounted Deaths In U.S. Prisons Part 2 20220928

Thank you distinguished members of the subcommittee. And and the ways we work with our state, local partners to improve the conditions of incarceration. We believe that gathering data about custody is a noble and necessary step towards a transparent and legitimate justice system. Theres no more solemn responsibility than life and helping us obtain information we need to assist state and federal authorities in fulfilling this responsibility. Since the original statute was enacted more than two decades ago, the department of justice through its office of Justice Program has worked to collect data in prisons and jails during arrest. And i know the committee appreciates, its a major undertaking to gather this information from 56 states and territories to in turn rely on reports from thousands of prisons, local jails and Law Enforcement agencies, but we firmly believe that its well worth the effort. While the need for reporting by the department, the current process deserves to be reevaluated. For many years, following the enactment in 2000, our bureau of justice collected data called for it which continued to do when the law expired six years later. And all told, there were 40 reports on the topic and which we have provide add wealth of information and causes of death and characteristics where the deaths occurred. And then in 2013, an update it was introduced and the new law expanded the original dcra hahnemann dated and added a study requirement using the data and the greatest consequence, reduce funding to noncomplaint states under the edward burn justice assistance program. Through the jag program ojp provides over 300 million annually in funding for general purposes, Law Enforcement and criminal justice activities throughout the nation. And this last requirement posed a dilemma as a federal Statistic Agency and theyre prohibited from using its data for any purpose other than statistics or research. Though dcra of 2013 was wellintentioned it was negative consequences, for one, since it requires the department to receive all information central and and through states, we can no longer collect from agencies as we once did. Secondly, the penalty provided under dcra2013 has the potential to finish states and local agencies that comply with the law. If, for example, they decline for the states, that is incomplete, even though the state may submit the data that they received, it could suffer the funding penalty. Furthermore, since these grants passed the states local jurisdictions, even the local agencies that fully report their information which feels the effects of the penalty applied in their states. Finally, we can no longer assign js. Which achieved nearly 100 Response Rate for the programs. And working hard to achieve more comprehensive reporting for states, and we continue to provide training and assistance to states to improve reporting and we are developing new methods for assessing state compliance and provide feedback for reporting. In the meantime, we look for congress to help us programmatically and we have a proposal how to do that. For instance, were asking to collect data directly from local agencies and sources and enable us to restrict to noncompliant agencies instead of applying it statewide. Were also proposing a new Grant Program to help better equip agencies across the country to collect and report on deaths in custody. The death in custody reporting act is one of the many vital tools in restoring the full integrity of our justice system. The department provides tens of millions of dollars in resources to states, local communities and tribes, to improve the way incarcerated people are treated and to support efforts to reduce arrest related deaths through Law Enforcement training and programs focused on training Law Enforcement and community trust. Examples of ojps work are provided in my written testimony. We look forward to meeting you with the challenges and i thank you for your time and happy to take any questions you may have. Thank you, miss henneberg, dr. Good win, youre recognized for your opening statement. Chair ossoff and Ranking Member johnson, i appreciate the opportunity to discuss the actions doj has taken to address the Data Collection and reporting requirements in the death in custody reporting act of 2013, dcra. And the extent to which doj has collected and used. As discussed dcra was enacted in 2014 to encourage the study and reporting of deaths in custody. Federal agencies and states that receive certain federal funding, are required to report this information to doj. Doj, is to study the federal and state data, examine how the information can be used to reduce deaths in custody, and reported findings to the congress. In 2015, doj began collecting data on deaths of people in the custody of federal Law Enforcement. As of fiscal year 2020, doj reported 2700 deaths in federal custody. While the agency collects the same information at the state and local level, its not actually reported on these deaths. Doj began collecting information from states on death in custody about three years ago. Agency officials told us, they plan to continue collecting state data, but they have not said whether or how they will use the information to address deaths in custody. Doj cites missing and or complete missing data from states as one of the reasons why they have not studied the state information. We found similar concerns when we examined the data. To for example, of the 47 states that submitted data, only two submitted all the required information. Some states did not account for all deaths in custody. Using publicly available reports, we identified nearly a thousand deaths that occurred during fiscal year 2021 that states did not report to doj. Four states did not report any deaths. Yet, we found that at least 124 deaths had occurred in those states. Doj has noted that it is a top priority to improve the quality and completeness of state reporting. In 2016, the agency acknowledged that determining state compliance with dcra would help improve the quality of the data and they have a goal to help ensure states comply with dcra. However, as of this month, september, 2022, doj still has not determined whether states have complied. While doj collects data from states, dcra does not require doj to publish state data and the agency has no plans to do so. Importantly, after dojs dcra Data Collection began, it discontinued a longstanding program that collected public data on death of people in state and local correctional institutions. The mortality and corrections institutions program. The doj used these data to publish reports to provide statistical information on deaths in correctional institutions. This published information allowed congress, researchers and the public to view and study the data. While the mortality and correctional institutions report was made publicly available, the dcra report may not be available to the public. This lack of transparency would be a great loss in the publics understanding of deaths in custody. Given that 1. 5 Million People were incarcerated in state prisons and local jails at the end of 2020, statistics on death in custody are a valuable resource for understanding mortality in the criminal justice system. Doj has made some progress toward addressing what it calls a profoundly important issue, but significant work remains, because right now, doj and states are expending resources for the data sets that may not be studied or published, potentially missing opportunities for inform practices to help reduce deaths in custody. We are Encouraging Congress to consider whether dcra should be amended to ensure that doj uses data that it collects from states for row curing studies and reporting to congress and the public. And to help enhance the quality of the data, we are recommending that doj develop a plan to determine state compliance with dcra. Chair ossoff and Ranking Member johnson, this concludes my remarks. Im happy to answer any questions you have. Thank you, dr. Good win and miss henneberg for your opening remarks and for your presence here today. I want to begin, dr. Goodwin, just by making sure that its clear what you found. I think in some way its the most powerful and alarming piece of data that you and your team unearthed at the request of the subcommittee is that in 2021, you found nearly 1,000 deaths in state or local facilities, that the department did not capture and you found them through a review of open sources, is that correct . Thats correct, senator. So, the way that 1,000 deaths kind of breaks out and actually, its 990, but we say nearly 1,000. The way that breaks out nearly 341 of the deaths that we discovered were in state correctional facilities so how did we get there . So we basically used publicly available data and some states will, when theyre doing annual statistical reporting we did a thorough analysis as we could to get to the 341. Then the other the remaining deaths. 649 deaths, again, we used publicly available data and used a couple of data bases that collect information on deaths that happened when someone is placed under arrest or when someone, when a death happens in custody and so, thats how we arrived at the nearly 1,000 deaths. So, but for the most part, a lot of this was publicly available data. One more thing i forgot to add. For the 341 deaths, that was publicly available data and we had access to some of the dcra records and we went through and tried to do some matching. Thank you, dr. Goodwin, nearly 1,000 deaths uncounted last year alone. Ms. Henneberg, i do want to, first of all, point out, you know, this is not a political or a partisan issue. The cascade, the debacle, the decline in the departments ability to collect and produce High Integrity data has unfolded over several years and multiple administrations. This is not a partisan issue. And we appreciate your presence here today to help us sort through these issues. Youve been working at the office of Justice Programs for 20 years and leading operations in management for the past seven, correct . I have been at the office of Justice Programs for 32 years, i have been part of the Leadership Team since february of 2014 as the Deputy Assistant attorney general for operations and management overseeing our business offices, correct. Thank you, and your office is responsible for the implementation of dcra, correct . The office of Justice Programs, our bureau of justice assistance at this time is overseeing the reporting from the states, thats correct. Yes, thank you, ms. Henneberg, as weve discussed 1. 5 Million People were incarcerated in state prisons or local jails, thousands die every year. Why is it important in brief, please, for the department to study and report on deaths in custody . The department shares the your goals, chairman, ossoff, to improve the data thats being reported. The accuracy, the quality, the completeness of the data, this data is extremely important. Its critical to understanding deaths in custody, understanding the relationship between deaths in custody and the policies and practices of the state jail, Law Enforcement agencies. I agree, ms. Henneberg. Here are quotes from bipartisan members of congress, representatives and senators about the purpose of dcra. It would bring a new level of accountability to our nations correctional institutions. Openness in government, it would bolster public confident and trust in our judicial system. Quote, bring additional transparency. Do you agree that these are among the purposes of this Data Collection . The department agrees that there is critical value. All of these data to collect the data from the states to analyze the data, to present findings so that we can better understand deaths in custody, so we can determine whether the strategies to reduce deaths in custody. Thank you, miss henneberg. The bureau of justice assistance, a Component Agency within the office of Justice Programs, and those who are tuned in across the country, will have to indulge and tolerate some acronym chaos here, but the bureau of justice assistance started collecting state and local death data in 2019. The bureau of justice statistics, or bjs. Which briefly collected the data, in fact, two decades collected this data with success and analyzed that that the bureau collected in 2020 and produced a report in may of 2021. It identified some significant issues that bja did not cap any prison deaths in 11 states or any jail deaths in 12 states and the district of columbia. From october to december of 2019, bja missed at least 592 deaths. Were those concerning to the department of justice . The department of justice over the two, three years we have been collecting the data. Weve seen the underreporting from states. Under dcra2013, states are having to collect data from their local agencies and they are centrally reporting to bja. The states are reporting great challenges. I think jaos report will show this and weve heard the same thing from our states. The states have no leverage to compel the local their local agencies to report the data. Thank you, ms. Henneberg, i appreciate your take on the state and local issue. My question is a specific one, if you will, please. When bjs, your statistical office, having reviewed the First Quarter of collection undertaken by bja, reported to omb and to the department that bja had missed state or prison deaths, state prison deaths in 11 states, jail deaths in 12 states, from october to december of that first period when bja was undertaking this collection and missed 592 deaths, was that concerning . Surely that was concerning. You were transitioning from one agency to another. The prior agency was telling you, its not working. Was that concerning . Its very concerning that there is the underreporting, and its widespread across all of the states. Its not just in certain areas. Okay, thank you, ms. Henneberg, it was concerning. So, in response to those findings by bjs. What did the department of justice do to improve the collection methodology so those problems wouldnt persist. The current administration, the Current Department were focusing on fixing the problems that we have and the obstacles that we have observed with reporting under dcr 2013. Were presenting proposals to amend dcra so we can amend issues that we believe are contributing to the underreporting, having states serve as the central repository and the central reporter is certainly ms. Henneberg, youll have to forgive, but we are trying to understand with precision what unfolded in the department that led to a significant decline in the integrity of the data that the department is collecting. So im looking for a precise answer to a particular question. In the first few months when bja took this over from bjs. Bjs continued collecting and they compared data sets. And bjs, your statisticians, folks who specialize in this, they raised a big red flag saying what bja is doing is not working. My question is in response to that specific information, that warning, what action was taken to improve bjas methodology, not generally, not fixes now, what action was taken then . Thank you for the question. I think its important that to describe when bjs collecting the data, they were able to go directly to local agencies, local correctional institutes, jails, and collect that data under dcra 2013. Bja was presented with working with the states as central reporters, which is a significant contributor to the underreporting and the incomplete data. Bja has worked with a training provider, provider direct Technical Assistance to the states, to review their data that is coming in, identifying ways they can improve it. We have provided trainings to the states. We have provided oneonone Technical Assistance with the states to help them think through their Data Collection strategies, to identify areas where there is underreporting, so that we can. Ms. Henneberg, we dont have unlimited time here and im not getting a precise answer to that question. Ill have to circle back, im going to yield now to Ranking Member johnson and return for a second round in a moment. Thank you. Ms. Henneberg, can you bring your microphone a little closer to your mouth . So i want to know how many people are working on this within the department of justice. Our bureau of justice assistance is a grant making agency so their primary function is grant making. They have no, no, so okay. How many people are working on providing this data . How many people . Is it 10, is it three dozen . How many people . I do not know the answer. I will go back and we can look at how many people are working. So i want to know how many people were working in the bureau of justice statistics and then i want to know how many people in the assistants, okay, i want to know how many people. Ms. Goodwin, when you say you got publicly available record, what are you talking about, death certificates or reports published and tapped into those. I will say senator, a little bit of both. For some states when they report their deaths, that information shows up in, like an end of the year annual statistical supplement. So we went through, and we basically did a Google Search to see what we could find. How many people did you have jao take a look at this. Two. Two people over what length of time. From may to september, may 2022, to september 2022. Okay, so, whats that, about five months . Do my fingers. So, you have two people and with two people working for a few months, you determined that we were missing, close to a thousand death reports, were you able to find them as open source reporting basically . Thats correct, a lot was open source reporting and a lot of it publicly available data and some of the data bases that do collect the information, the nondoj data bases. Do either of you know approximately how many deaths occur in custody within state and local jails every year . Unfortunately, we do not. I mean, just ballpark . Nothing precise right now, im talking ballpark. Is it a couple thousand . Bjs, 2019. Local jails, 1200 deaths. I got that local, how about state . State and federal was about 4200. So, why do you combine state and federal and not state and local . This is not a trick question, im just its a question, curiosity, we normally separate federal and then state and local. You did the other way, why . Well, local jails is a different type of facility than federal and state prison. But isnt state prison different than federal prison . Correct. So, okay, soso youve probably got a couple thousand 2 to 3,000 prisoners dying in custody in state and local prisons. I thought it was as i was going through i assumed to be state and local, its only local. Why did you issue this report chockful of information, by the way, on only local . Why didnt you combine with state . Im sorry, senator johnson, what report are you referring to . Again, i the whole purpose of dcra is to determine the deaths in custody in state and local jails, correct . Correct. Correct . And so when you publish a paper on deaths, mar talties, 2000, 2019, why did you only do local . Why did you do state and local . Thats the purpose of dcra. In 2019, we just did published state and federal deaths. Okay. A weird combination. Okay. I think my point throughout here, is that were talking about a pretty manageable amount of information here with just a little bit of dedication from bureaucracy, now i have it, of 117,000 people in the department of justice, a bill that was passed in 2000 and reauthorized in 2013, so, obviously, you realize congress wanted this information. You were collecting some of it and then you kind of stopped. I mean, i i heard the explanation that when Congress Passed authorization and tied it to funding and theres a penalty there and the bureau of justice and statistics could no longer handle that because thats okay, thats bureaucrat particular impediments, i got that. But it wouldnt seem it would be that heavy lift two one or two people well find out. I really want to know how many people in bjs were working on providing this information and that how many people in bja were charged with that. You would have thought a meeting or two, you could have combined your efforts and said, you know, this is what we did. And you ought to do the same thing, which is what the question the chairman was trying to get at. Where was the breakdown here . So ill ask you, where was the breakdown . Because it seems like bjs was able to collect this information . All of a sudden, for whatever bureaucrat particular impediment, they had to turn that over to bja. What was so hard about a pretty smooth handoff . This department is focused on fixing and improving the Data Collection so were focused on how we okay, youve been focusing on how many years . Youve utterly failed. I mean, literally youve utterly failed. Goao two months got better information than the Justice Department in over how many years. We dont know what states werent reporting. Local 11 and 12, were able to answer that question from staff. What is the impediment to getting information from states . Youve got 50 states. Youve got a couple of people put them on it fulltime they starts talking to the states, this information is missing. Over the course of 22 years i would have thought this information gathering process would have been pretty wellhoned and the reports would have been automatic and probably could have put one person on it parttime. But so, my point what is wrong with bureaucracies . Why cant they accomplish just the simplest of tasks . And why wont you be transparent and honest with why youre not able to do it . I guess im not asking for answers to these things, just rhetorical questions, but do you have any response . Senator johnson, i do. The response that i gave in my oral statement and that ive tried to reiterate here is that dcra, 2013 provides for a different reporting structure. That reporting structure has left the states with little to no leverage or incentive to get the information from local agencies and Law Enforcement agencies. We are working. I thought, didnt they actually increase incentives. They attached funding to it and theres a penalty are not receiving funding if they didnt get i dont think they had incentives in 2000, thats part of the issue with reauthorization wasnt it, they actually put penalties to it . It seems they were far more successful with the prior law . The jag penalties that are currently in dcra2013 have unintended consequences. If a state is reporting everything that theyre receiving from local agencies and it is incomplete. They would potentially be found in noncompliance and their state funding would be cut. Even though they would be working in good faith to so well say it doesnt surprise me that Congress Might have kind of screwed something up here, okay . And we maybe ought to take a look at that, but we need to fully understand it first, exactly what happened, now, so how were we collecting it under bjs. How were we were collecting it under bja. We need transparency and help, this should not be that difficult to fix to start getting the quite honestly, i want more information, i want the stories. By the way, were you listening to our witnesses in the first panel . I was not able to join the hearing, but i did look at the victim list and theyre very heartbreaking, heartbreaking stories. So what i would suggest you do, you go back to the department of justice and you have anybody involved in this process get a clip of the testimony and i think that just might incentivize you to get on this case and get this information. Okay . Senator, we are proposing fixes, legislative changes to dcra 2013 so that that the department can be in a better position and have the ability to i come from the private sector, id have this fixed in about 10 minutes, okay . That its taken you years is beyond comprehension honestly. Well do it the government way and we ought to get to the bottom of this, mr. Chairman. Thank you, Ranking Member johnson. Dr. Goodwin, why is it important to have a full and accurate accounting of death in custody data. Senator, ill harken back to the Previous Panel where you asked them and id like to add onto the conversation, when we think about collecting these types of statistics, there are people at the end of these statistics, theyre not just numbers, were talking about people, and talking about people and their families. Collecting this information would be is useful to policy makers, first, its useful to doj to help them better understand whats happening that might be causing these deaths. What modifications might need to be made. What changes might need to be made. Is there training . What needs to happen in the correctional institutions to ensure that there arent any deaths . And once that happens, you know, informing the policy makers, what needs to happen is theres the need to be a change in policy, what needs to happen to ensure that these deaths dont keep occurring . Thank you, dr. Goodwin and according to your analysis of dojs data from last year, we already discussed nearly a thousand deaths that your team was able to identify through open sources uncounted in the doj data . Is it also the case, my understanding is that 70 of the death in custody records produced by states to the department were incomplete and 40 of those records did not even include a description of the circumstances of death. Is that correct . Thats correct, senator. So, under dcra, theres certain types of information that are supposed to be reported. One, you know, the race, ethnicity, gender of the individual who is deceased, the location of the death that happened. You know, what was occurring during that time. So there are a number of different elements, shall we say, that should be reported to dcra, when under dcra when they make reports about what happened. When we look at the data, as you said, 70 had x amount. 40 had x amount so that was a concern as well. I would also like to add, senator, our nearly 1,000 deaths that we found, we believe thats an undercount. Now, we were doing a very quick, but thorough analysis based on what was available to us, but we are mindful that some of that information might not have been reported anywhere or might have been misreported. And we believe thats an undercount and another reason why were calling on doj to do what they can to ensure state compliance with dcra so we can have a more accurate picture of whats happening in these institutions. Lets crystallize the findings and im grateful for you and your staff for undertaking the analysis for your investigation, for your professionalism and hard work. I want to condense this down to the key facts that the public needs to hear. You found nearly 1,000 deaths last year alone uncounted by doj. And you believe its likely a significant undercount. 70 of the records they did collect were incomplete and 40 of the records didnt even include a description of the circumstances of death. Thats correct. The professor on panel one, professor arm strong, discussed how we cant effectively intervene to remedy facility level abuses, misconduct, poor conditions, poor health units, the kind of things that lead to higher rates of death in those facilities, unless we know where the problems are. Do you agree with that, dr. Goodwin . Yes, we do. Do you agree that if we dont understand and 40 of the records collected, again, putting aside nearly a thousand records that were not collected at all and perhaps many more, putting that aside, when 40 of the records dont even include a description of the circumstances of deaths, that the purpose of this collection to yield insight for policy makers, so that we can intervene and save lives, is undermined . Yes, and dcra was put in place and was enacted to deal with and minimize deaths and custody. Part of that Data Collection, once you have the data, you have some idea of what might need to be done and i will add that some states might be doing some really good things within their states. We just dont know because that data just isnt being collected. Id also like to add that even if the data were collected, where we found, in our conversations with doj, they dont have any plans to publish the data. So, the data would be collected and what would be done with it is really the question. Yeah, thats a good segue, dr. Goodwin. Let me ask, ms. Henneberg, about that. Why did doj cease to publish after years of making this public. Isnt there a vital and Public Interest in this transparency here . Thank you for that question, chairman ossoff. Dcra 2013 that the they had report the data and study the data to determine the strategies to reduce deaths, as well as the relationship between policies, procedures, management actions, relating to these deaths. So, yes, the department strongly agrees with joa that we must strengthen how we collect data under dcra and i think our legislative proposal is aimed at dixing fixing this. I appreciate that, but why did doj cease publishing this data when it fulfills a vital Public Interest. Thank you for the question, its important to talk about that, from two perspectives, one a legal perspective as well as a data perspective. From the data perspective, the data as we hear and as we agree with jao and hearings from the states, theres significant underreporting and providing that data would be misleading. It would not provide a full picture of what is happening in custody. So, ms. Henneberg, ill let you complete that answer. I want to make sure i understand what im hearing and youre saying, and the public understands. You ceased to publish the data because you no longer have complete and accurate data, correct . The department is working with the states who are the central reporters of that data to collect that data, the states are to collect that data from local agencies and local Law Enforcement, the states are challenged collecting that data and we are working with the states through Technical Assistance. We are looking at open sources to identify those deaths that the states arent reporting going back to the states and working with them to improve their Data Collection. Okay, ms. Henneberg, doj has ceased the publication of that data because the data is no longer of sufficient completeness, accuracy and integrity to publish it. Thats the first reason. Youre going to give a second reason why youve ceased publication of the data . The second reason would be the data under dcra 2013 collected to analyze and studied and were currently doing that. The National Institute of justice is undertaking a multiyear effort to review the data, as well as looking at other sources of data to be able to provide findings on relationships between deaths in custody, policies, practices, of institutions. Okay, lets discuss that report, ms. Henneberg. So i understand what youre telling us is, this data, which was published for 20 years is no longer being published because of concerns about now the accuracy of the collection of the data, the completeness and collection of the data. And you mentioned the broader report mandated by congress in dcra 2013, correct . Dcra 2013 provides that. Thats right the data analyzed studied. Thats right. And dcra issued the report to congress, that report to congress and i want to again, im going to pivot for a moment to dr. Goodwin why its so important. The Department Takes the Data Collected and investigate it for insights that could lead to solutions for deaths in custody, is that correct. Thats correct, when we last spoke with doj in august of 2022, they told us that they had not yet started they had not yet studied the data to determine how that information could be used to reduce deaths in custody, but it sounds like thats happening now. Thank you, dr. Goodwin, so, ms. Henneberg, the law required that report to be issued to congress no later than december of 2016. December of 2016. The department has not yet issued that report, correct . Correct, the department so were now almost six years past the deadline, right . The department values that data and we are studying it and we are very eager to get the findings so that we can understand, better understand deaths in custody and reduce deaths in custody that can be prevented. So, ms. Henneberg, the regular publication of that data that bjs was publishing, the data is not good enough to publish weve establish that, but the failure to report to congress pre dates that transition, back in 2016 when this was due, bjs was running the collection and analysis, so theres no excuse here that the data is not good enough because bjs was doing a pretty good job of collecting that data. Why is this report now six years late . Am i correct that the department did not even award a contract to a contractor to produce this report until september of 2021 . Is that correct . That is correct for one piece of study, correct. Just, so, the department did not award a contract to produce this study and again, were talking about studies in contracts and mandates and lets bring this back to human beings. Were talking about a study whose purpose is to look at data about people dying in prisons and jails, and give policy makers at the department of justice, and the congress, the insight and wisdom based on the data to prevent the deaths, to fulfill an urgent humanitarian purpose. Thats why Congress Gave that mandate to the department and what youre telling me is that not only is the report now six years late, but the department did not retain a contractor to produce that report until five years after it was due. Why . Well, as senator, thank you for that question and its a good question. Bja began collecting the data and in 2020. So, october of 2019, and data needed to be collected to study. I mean, thats what dcra 2013 is calling for, collect the data and then study, study date that so that we can understand the deaths. , but it was due in 2016. How about lets be forward looking here, can you give a date certain when congress will give that report that is now six year overdue. There are two parts of that study. One we do have a draft, the first part and its discussed in our report that we put out last week that will be available. We are estimating by the end of calendar year 22 and the other is a multiyear effort by nij thats not only using the Data Collected under dcra 2013 and also other sources. The data elements, and the Data Collected under dcra 2013 wasnt sufficient to meet the purposes of the study and the scope of the study, so we are expecting that in 2024. Eight years late. Thank you, ms. Henneberg. Ms. Henneberg, as i mentioned in my opening remarks, and i am greatful for your testimony here today, im here to work with the department to get this right because ultimately getting this right is what matters because lives are on the line. And this isnt about shuffling paper and having these kind of exchanges in rooms here in the senate, this is about the americans who are locked up, many of them pretrial detainees who have been convicted of no crime, who are dying every year, in many cases preventiblely who arent being counted, whose causes of deaths are no longer being collected, whose locations of death are no longer being collected. And the fact that when we dont get the information that weve tasked you with producing, and the insight and analysis that weve tasked you with producing until six or eight years after a deadline, that has cost human lives. Thats why this matters. And i am surely here to work with you and your colleagues. If legislation is whats required, lets legislate, but im sure you can understand, ms. Henneberg, and your colleagues can understand that for the department to come eight years after a law is enacted and say youve determined that you cannot implement it successfully, eight years have now gone by where people have been dying and i know from my brief time here when executive Branch Agencies decide they need something they make us aware of what they need. Eight years has gone by since the law was enacted and now were hearing that you cant carry out your mission, you cant collect accurate data and you cant produce for us the six years late report on what youve learned about saving lives in prisons and jails because at least in part the data is not complete. And i just have to note in 2018, office of the Inspector General warned that the methodology doj was undertaking was likely to fail. Here is what the office of the Inspector General said, without complete information about deaths in custody of the department will be unable to achieve dcras primary purpose to example how dcra data can be used to predict the deaths of numbers in custody. This is 2018, your internal watch dog wrote, we found the department does not have plans to submit a required report that details results of the study. Four years ago, the office of the Inspector General warning that the methodology is not going to work warning that the report is not going to be produced. The Inspector General also said what dr. Goodwin has said today, quote, we believe that not releasing dcra data and analysis limits the utility of the Data Collection efforts and the departments ability to use the information on deaths and custody and take steps to reduce their number. Again in 2021, your statisticians are warning that the methodology was going to fail. We have those document, it wasnt fixed and eight years after the law is passed youre telling us you need legislation. All the while, people have been dying. Where is the urgency . Chairman ossoff, i can assure you that the department understands the value of this data, that we understand the critical nature of having the data to know more about deaths in custody. We value the purposes of dcra 2013 and previous dcra 2000 and what its intended to do. Were faced with a statute that provided that the states collect the data and we were we were following that approach, the states directly being the central reporters. We have now proposed legislative fixes. The department is committed to fixing this. This current administration, this department is focusing on fixing what we have observed for the last couple years with dcra reporting. Well, i appreciate that, ms. Henneberg and i want to note that President Biden issued an executive order on may 25th calling for the department to release its plan for full implementation and compliance with dcra. That was noted. Weve received some of the preliminary information. Weve got to get this right. Were going to wrap up this hearing in just a moment, but weve got to get this right. Dr. Goodwin im grateful to you in your response to our subcommittees inquiry and ms. Henneberg, i appreciate your testimony today. Theres no doubt that this has been poorly managed within the department of justice, that as a result the congress and the department have been unable to take steps that could have saved lives. But as ive said, im here to work with you to fix this as soon as possible because it must be fixed. It must be fixed. Ill just close with this and this brings us back to the experiences of the americans we heard from in the first panel. Jonathan fanno, matthew loflan, two americans sitting in jail, pretrial not convicted, died in the custody of their own government and there are thousands more and tens or hundreds of thousands of family members who have experienced what our two Witnesses Today experienced. There is an ongoing humanitarian crisis in americas prisons and jails. People are dying every week in americas prisons and jails. Many of them preventbly. Ms. Henneberg, i hope you leave this hearing fully committed to tasking your entire team with the urgency warranted by a crisis thats taking lives. Dr. Goodwin, i thank you for supporting our efforts to bring transparency to this important issue. And with that, this hearing is adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] cspan is your unfiltered view of government. Were funded by these Television Companies and more, including comcast. Do you think this is just a Community Center . No, its way more than that. Comcast is partnering with a thousand Community Centers to create wifi enabling so student will be able to get the tools they need for anything. Comcast support cspan as a Public Service along with these other Television Providers giving you a front row seat to democracy. This morning, state Department Officials testify on the effectiveness of sanctions against russia for its invasion of ukraine. Live coverage from the Senate Foreign Relations Committee begins at 10 a. M. Eastern on cspan. 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