Transcripts For CSPAN2 Judge Victoria Pratt The Power Of Dignity- How Transforming Justice Can... 20220901

I am a member of the Library Board of trustees and went to introduce a couple ofhe people that i dont see them you have nto stay tuned we are proud to be the first stop. [applause] there is a lot to unpack in the book title. The power of the then you can see the dignity of every human being who comes into her courtroom to carry the transformative innovation she champions and her court became a solution to the inequities and indignities but i think of chore pratt as an instrument of grace into her courtroom she is a medium for delivery and through human regeneration. But at the center of innovation but how where will judge press and looking to transform the criminal Justice System into a space of problemsolvingfo and resources also serving as the Senior Management consultant in the private and public sector. Hi baby. A graduate of new york university, years of us will to be the school of international and Public Affairs i have to correct something which was said i am not a match for richer but it truly is a testament to this community and the space that it exists. This is one ofs the first places we stopped off in so i want to tell you about about twoa people starting with our moderator then moving on to her we want to know about asus you professor is from the department of justice at Montclair University i want to talk to ever so briefly about how i met and i mean they for dinner they should do know about your that is a venture those were early 2007 she was then the attorney at it was clear a person who had drive and this will just be just but i remember she was one of the first people. That was the first time i actuallyly met or, forces history and i would drive down park. Every morning we would see a relatively but why did she walk so fast . [laughter] so i met her for the first time i thought wait a minute that is the person. So victoria has been walking fast ever since. I would then come to know her asic and then waiting for those on the team to buy into what she was doing. She broke and then the rest of the courthouse as she rose to thee role that she is chief judge in the Municipal Court. Thank you. [applause] good evening thank you for coming near and far. I feel like be can have a whole protest in here. [laughter] thank you. Also thank you to jason to be here to have a conversation about the bucket thank you for hosting and this is home to me one is especially great is that i use the library that i remember one young manan who was babysitting his nephew and when i said what you do with your nephew every day . He said we play video games. If you know me the top of my head came off and when he came back to theno court initially he was very annoyed i would take him to someplace he does not know where it is located. He is showing me that is that i have a problem now. [laughter] s im grateful to the library. First of all congratulations on the book launch. This is incredible. Also very provocative work this is definitely going to shape conversations around temporary Justice Reform the best book not only reforms that you can feel the passion and that something have to say is ever present so thank you for sharing that passion so thank you for that you have done and continue to do. So now going around the legal system in the courts what compelled you to write this book . That is an interesting question to jethro came in one day and said i you are taking notes and journaling this and i said dontto i look busy enough . That i was a judge sitting in the system that incarcerates black and brown bodies before they have a chance to shine in the world and sitting in a Justice System that snares the mentally illll the poor and the marginalized and then disproportionately punishes them for being those things. I was sitting in the system that putak our children to make one mistake particularly in urban spaces. And one of the things that makes me move is when i get angry i did become a judge because i felt the system always are mostly did the right thing that because i committed myself that everyone that comes before me will get justice that is a commitment i made to myself and that at the municipal level you have such an opportunity to help people shift most people ac core at the municipal level but it is in that space through the criminal Justice System to create major disruptions in peoples lives and then you can change the trajectory of a persons life. You talk about the court rooms and your ted talk was phenomenal i think Chapter Three entitled icu. You write true justice is curious about the information before us andbo that requires us to see what is obvious and what is not so obvious but also what is there a not so apparent but so that is how justice should process so tell me your perspective. Its interesting you pick the icu chapter as well because the idea that people come before us they carry everything that has happenedou to them. All of the trauma the family needs, evictions and they are hungry and we have to look at a complaint as a judge into make a decision that will impact the persons entire life based upon a few minutes of something that happened. Sometimes is not even accurate depiction of the story. Often times when they said this happened so the idea of treating people with dignity, my mother was a beautician down the street and its amazing when you become your parents after telling yourself your whole life that you will not do that and then i found myself channeling her. But then there was this amazing woman who had love and kindness to give to say she was a beautician who used haircare as anau opportunity to heal people. She had a beauty parlor and would feed the homeless. She had all these adopted children and would go into hospitals and visit people who were hivpositive and in the eighties people were discarded. My mom and work a full day then go visit them. To see them as people and it was very important my brother and i learned to see people as entire things to hand family and the story. Sometimes when youre sitting in a Municipal Court they want you to move the calendar. Youre looking at cases and checking boxes and hoping if they can read it but maybe not caring if they can read it or not. Now you are not looking up there is a jurisdiction that tells people not to look at the defendant when they are given in the negative ruling if you hold them to bail and i think about how disrespectful that is to the person receiving actions. First of all they dont trust the system because they think the judge is doing the dirty they cannot even look me in the eye. Promised if i cannot look them in the eye then a needed to rethink the ruling. Because in their something with me thatsy not comfortable with it than they are not getting justice. Sometimes we make the offender the victim because we have a system that has the satiated desire to punish disproportionately now thinking about how the judge and the system has victimized them. So this idea treating people with dignity and respect and maybe i was on the bench for a year. And i was asked do you do that naturally . En i was embarrassed because i wasnt sure what it was. I said as long as nobody is asking then i will keep doing it you if they ask i will keep doing it. He told me this thing called procedural justice. I was practicing this not even realizing it was something there was evidence and research about. The idea that if people perceive and understand and they believe they are treated with dignity and respect it increases trust in the Justice System. Not only that then it gets them to obey the law. System as a legitimate authority. To rule against them. Literally. They said people we submit to governance to todays an election to the mayors power over us to the City Councils Government Authority over us and to make rules that were subject to because we to see them as legitimate authorities that was not happening and it and it doesnt happen often times so judges give people or i like to say, you know, you smash them out with these hearts sentences and then they go right back to jail because pretty much what youve done is illegitimate to them. So this idea of creating this this idea of looking at people is really significant because were dealing with populations that nobody asks them what they think nobody sees them. It was challenging when im got moved to this court because it was the arraignment court. So it was the people who like i picked up on bench warrants. They had been running on the streets for days trying to get high. So instead of they were drugstick instead of going to the hospital they ended up at green street jail, and so you would see them and theyd be filthy or theyd be having auditory hallucinations and then youre dealing with these folks and it just it made you feel terrible because here you were they come in youd revise their time payment a fine. They got that when you gave it to them. You knew they couldnt pay and so they go through this cycle of injustice right this Conveyor Belt of injustice that youre participating in and the system forces judges to participate in the hallucination, you know, sir. How much are you going to pay me . Oh judge. Im gonna pay you a hundred dollars a month when i get my check. Well if he had a check, he probably wouldnt be living on the streets. Or my favorite was one day the prosecutor wanted to impose a 80 fine and 33 dollars court costs and i was like manny prosecutor. Did you notice that hes wearing one shoe. Right one shoe if he had five dollars, maybe hed go get another shoe. But here the court is engaged in this thing that were going to impose finds that we know that were not going to get and then we punish him by when he doesnt pay the hundred dollars. Now i got to issue a bench warrant. And then he gets picked up and in a couple of months people get arrested multiple times on fines. An open charges, i think one of the numbers i saw the prison policy say that in a year people. Before they even get convicted 10. 6 million admissions at the low level of people just churning through the Municipal Court. And if we keep our heads down and just keep looking at the paper. Yeah, we can do that and not be affected by it, but thats not justice. Thats not justice. So this idea of looking and seeing people it also gives the judge an opportunity to make decisions about what it is. Theyre seeing when im when im on the bench, you know, i the whole courtroom is my living room. So i need to know whats happening and i think one of the things that i got why i got really good at it is because i engaged the entire courtroom. So at the end of my session i would say tell me what i missed and i have my officer the officers here was our judge you missed that he was intimidating her you missed that he was talking to. Himself, and it got to the point that before i even got on the bench. The clerk would say oh this person you might need to see them first or the officer would say i put their file up top because you might need to get them out of the courtroom or this persons has another appointment. But this idea that the entire system everyone who touches them needs to see them and needs to be asking themselves questions about why is this person . Responding in this way, which is a whole nother way of seeing them. You know, i am talk about a young man in the book who comes to court and hes just his behavior is odd, and hes looking at the officers both ways and im the i believe that hes about to be done with the program because he had already gotten into. Trouble with me and mr. Drogo whos here begins to read this horrible report of all the stuff. He hasnt done that. Ive already given him multiple times to do but the entire time shes talking instead of him trying to interrupt her. Or plead his case. Hes just looking at the officers. Hes looking at the officers and hes putting his hands in his pocket and taking his hands and im just like wow, this is not how somebody behaves when theyre about to get in trouble when she stops speaking now. Im looking at him and what im expecting to hear is check it judge. Check it. Let me tell you what really happened, right . And instead what i hear is just shoot me just shoot me just kill me and he literally lunges for the officers. He had come to court for suicide by police. And just sitting there thinking what could be so horrible. That you would come to court so somebody could kill you literally lunge for the officers. Guns now because the officers were in a courtroom where they understood that their roles were peace officers. I mean lifted him off the ground and took him in the back. But thats why you need to see people because what hes frequently told officers. Was that everything for the past two weeks had been going so bad for him . That he just wanted to end it. He just wanted his life to end now in a place where people are not looking and not sensitive to this. It could have ended differently, you know, the officers could have responded to his aggression with more aggression. But theres a whole life and its a life. With a lot of trauma that you need to understand folks who come through the criminal Justice System. So seeing them and seeing whats not there because of again. I was just like wow, this is not whatever. However hes responding is not normal. To and i dont mean normal. Like he schizophrenic but not normal in terms of what is customary when these things happen. Whats customary when this young man has been in court before me and that sometimes a person what can look like disorderly behavior is just some stuff thats going on that we need to resolve before that day. We didnt i didnt care anything about the case that was in front of me. We needed to resolve what was happening to this young man so he could stay alive. Yeah, i think the marriage and together of your personal biography with that of procedural justice is quite fascinating and i think it connects to a quote from chapter 6 to david palins case. You wrote quote the failure to infuse a procedural justice approach. Its a policing will continue to produce terrible outcomes throughout the Justice System. Yes as was the case for david and and we later learn in this chapter that david was a law student he had been arrested by Transit Police on a disorderly persons ticket. But again this connection, you know from personal biography to understanding decline before you you all know that for instance. He wrote his eyes right when you when you called his name and something happened for you there. What was the procedural justice takeaway . Know he got sent to my court because now we had this Newark Community Solutions Program that provided you with alternatives to sentence defenses defendants to jail so we could do other things we could get counseling and because newark is this huge college town we needed to figure out why College Students. I had never had a law student in my courtroom at all. So i was thinking what could he have possibly done other than the drunk outside . And even the complaint as it was written just said disorderly and im like, theres no allegations here something strange happened and when he got up and rolled his eyes at me. I was like, this is an extension of what happened out in the streets, and now youre mad at me so i kind of laughed because i was like, oh nobody told him. Im just pratt dont play but you know, well get through this. But it was just i didnt respond to that idea that i knew whatever his First Contact with the police was was horrible. And in newark, you have 26 Law Enforcement officer all agencies writing summonses complaints and tickets. So if youre in newark the chances and i mean live park their car here work here come and shop here the chances of you engaging with Law Enforcement is great and then different bodies of Law Enforcement. So youre looking at new Jersey Transit Rutgers Police as this county police the prosecutors Investigators Office the newark police, new Jersey Transit conrail has a police force, you know all of these places, so that he came before me and he was really upset but he was this law student. So a part of his sentence was to write an essay at the time. I did not know the extent of what it was that happened to mr. Polanese. And so he read his essay how good decisions and bad decisions might impact my life. And his case was dismissed he was sent off. The one day i was at the law school, and this nicely dressed young man comes up to me and its like i dont know if you remember me. And he is now at that time a prosecutor. Right because processing him on that ticket would have created an issue for him. And it just said disorderly persons. But i dont know what that means because that could mean anything and it could mean you just spoke you you spoke back when the offices spoke to you. Then i see him so like im like wow, this is amazing and i said to him you got a Second Chance when you see somebody who deserves a Second Chance you give it to him if you see somebody whos supposed to be under the jail you give them that too. But if somebody is salvageable, you know, you give them exactly what you got. I interviewed him for the book. And he says i never disclosed what really happened to me. He was at the city subway. And his friend decided they couldnt he couldnt wait and he started urinating on the place. New Jersey Transit officer comes and starts saying all kinds of obscenities to him. What does the Young Law Office of the young law student do he does what he learned in the first year criminal procedure and criminal law he told the officer you dont have to speak to him that way. I mean, you know if he needs a ticket give it to him. He gets slammed to the ground. He gets slammed to the ground by this officer officer puts his knee in his back arrests him for speaking. Literally. He was arrested for speaking. And what is so crazy about this is that he never disclosed this even as he went through the process. He had a public defender. He never disclosed this so there was the shame about this but also this idea how do i trust the system you know, he now is this . I mean he has hes moved on to one of the large. Terms in the state of new jersey like maybe the second largest before that. He was working at one of the the most powerful political firms in the state and im thinking like one encounter could have changed all of that if the judge didnt slow down if the prosecutor didnt slow down if the public defender had not asked the question. Are you a student right because before i got . A plea i needed the prosecutor. Is this person a student . Do they work . Do they have any medical issues . Yeah, thats a lot of stuff, but you better Start Talking to your clients before you come talking to me about why they should accept the plea and especially in a college town a lot of young folks want to just plead guilty so they can go home and their parents not know and then they figure out. Oh wait, i dont have any Financial Aid anymore because i play guilty to something that was stupid at the municipal level. Because i didnt ask anybody and no one saw value enough in me to say. Were going to stop and im not going to let you do this, you know, one of my favorites when people wanted to go to trial and they didnt want a public pretender. I would always say so youre going to represent yourself. I guess you watched a lot of law and order, but i hope you know that in law in order the prosecutor always wins and i cant theres no do over that trial and so this idea that you have to make sure people are also informed to go back to this idea of procedural justice when you talk about procedures justice and the principles. Its one giving people voice the opportunity to speak that clearly in that interaction. He did not have the opportunity to speak. In fact, he was penalized for speaking ensuring that the process is neutral and that the that theres the appearance of neutrality and sometimes the neutrality peace is a little challenging for judges not because we dont want to be neutral but because the person who is receiving the neutrality has to believe that the process is neutral and sometimes we mess up when we go. Stuff like when we say stuff like oh, wheres my office or wheres my prosecutor . We have this relationship that with people that we are familiar with even attorneys that come in day in and day out and you become familiar with them when we go back in when we go into the back to conference a case and a person is representing themselves. They cant go back there. Why is the judge going in the back to talk about my case . Why cant they do this where i can see and participate in this process and not understanding how that impacts something as simple as a rule all of the judges know it here we do an Opening Statement that we take the private attorneys first, and then we go to the public defender cases and then we go to people representing themselves. People sitting in the audience representing themselves feel like theyre being shafted because the person whos got the attorney gets to go first. The reason we let the attorneys go first is because theyre they have to be in another court in another part of the state and cant hold up the entire process, but it is important that we say things like that that people and so thats why this neutral piece is challenging because we really have to make an effort to make sure that people do that understand this neutrality piece this idea also of understanding that people understand the process the Justice System doesnt tell us that its our responsibility as judges to make sure people understand but who else is responsibility is it . If i want you to do what ive asked you to do to not do the things that youre doing to go back into the community and be a full citizen if you dont understand the process whats expected of you . How can you participate fully you cant . You cant so yes, it is our responsibility and this idea of respect and what respect looks like. What is it, you know, sometimes people think oh if youre being respectful it makes you look weak and im like, no respect makes you look. Wrong, right because you have to be strong in who you are not worried about the second. I realized that i worried about whether i would appear vulnerable on the bench, but when i realized that they needed more help. Than my concern about being vulnerable. Then it worked out like i was like, oh, i dont really care about whether you think im weak because you realize i wasnt because i was trying to make sure that this process because the process doesnt end in my courtroom. What happens in my courtroom then goes into the community and and i have to be cognizant of that. So this idea of respect is like literally theres a study that shows that when when women are asked questions judge it you have to pause you have to give a woman a second. To think but that when women are asked questions in court. They go on quickly. Dont wait for the answer. They just go on so judges have to be conscious of the fact that women are thinking about it. Have to think about not just gonna give you an answer, but that there are differences. There might be differences culturally that you have to wait for an actual response. So those are some of the things that what respect looks like, you know, i always say the i start my ted talk with judge, i want to tell you something. I want to tell you something. Ive been watching you. And youre not too faced you treat everybody the same. Well, that was said to me by a transgender prostitute who before i had gotten on the bench had fired her public defender. Insulted the Court Officer and yelled at the person sitting next to her. I dont know what youre looking at. I look better than the girl youre with. Right and so she says this. But when i called her case. I say her male name low enough so that its picked up by the record, but i say it her female name loud enough so that she could walk down the aisle towards Council Table with dignity. And and it was a small thing and it changed everything because again she was telling me im judging you as well. Its not just you think that you get to judge me it based on how i feel about you depends on what im going to do when i leave here and whether youre gonna have peace in your courtroom while im here as well. So yeah, i love that. You know that what happens . In the courtroom ult imate ends up back in the kitchen that baseline of understanding but in keeping with this same vein of thought down a little bit more into the letter written. Yeah thats allowed you to establish another kind of justice, but perhaps an even more effective. So the essays yes, so i picked up the essays from my mentor in new york. Does calabrese from the and a lot of judges give people essays what i found is that so much of the population that comes through. Lets just establish this its a small portion of the population that comes through our Court Systems that are responsible for the that we see as offenses in our community and so many of them are poorly educated so i would get these essays and i couldnt read them. So the reason i started giving these essays is because so much of the conversation is about how to shift a person how to get them to transform their thinking and the essays are cathartic they write about the thing thats got them stuck. And its not just that i want to know your business, but if you start writing and thinking about this thing, they got that has you stuck we can get past it because its really about unpacking the lie. Hello. Its about the lie that we tell ourselves that keeps us stuck. And so in the essays people had an opportunity to really just express themselves the folks who came before me and court. Nobody asked them how theyre feeling what they think. No one does that. And so now i was actually criticized by someone who was well meaning it was like how could you give these folks essays and i thought how little would i have to think about them that to think that they dont have the right to express themselves . And so again the lie there is an example in the book. But it was just a really powerful one as well of a woman who was very ill one of the things is that when people started reading the essays aloud they got really they got really good and i didnt know that people would be so honest about what they were experiencing. And so she starts writing this essay and one of the great things is that when people wrote read the essays they often would bring people with them because they were proud of themselves and we would clap at the end the essay and she starts her essay off and she says. Ive been suffering from a fatal disease for 24 years. And i made a note of it and then she starts talking about how her life spirals. So how she started doing drugs and then her illness and then she got are illness and so when she was finished everybody, i mean resounding clapping it was wonderful, and i looked at her and i said, do you know that you beat that disease 23 years ago. You cant have a fatal disease for 24 years, right . And i told her you have been telling yourself. The wrong story been telling the story where youre the victim and in fact, youre the victor every morning you wake up and you tell that disease. I wish you would try to take me out. Every morning you say that to the disease and if you could have seen her face it was a first time that she had ever thought about her diagnosis in that way and i tell you she just stood up straighter. And i thought like having the had had she not written that. We wouldnt have been able to unpack the lie. She was a fighter 24 years. Somebody told you he was supposed to die a year in a year and every day you wake up every day you wake up you may feel pain, but youve overcome that disease. And so those you know those things i stopped. Giving young boys the young boys young guys the essay where do i . See myself at 25 because they would always start these essays. I dont i dont know. Well, first of all, they had attitude. I dont know why the judge gave me this stupid essay to write. But i dont expect to see 21. Why is she asking me about seeing 25 . Whoa, first time i heard it i thought yikes. Second time i heard it third i was on dated for this essay because we need to have essays here that pour into them. So the topics like if i believe one positive thing about myself, how would my life be different now that essay i could really care less about what they write because for two weeks. Theyre thinking about a positive characteristic they may have right, theyre like, oh no, i dont. Write about that, but im good at that, right. And so its this idea of giving people different feelings about who they are even though were in the courthouse. Let them go upstairs and your Community Solutions has a quadrip social workers case managers. We got Community Service and when they came to newark, they put together this guide of all the Community Service places and social Service Places that most folks didnt know about so you could do Community Service at a church on sunday that had a drug rehabilitation arm and that would send you off to drug treatment on monday. And so thats what i mean about this part about the Community Healing itself sending people to one of our partners whos here to the food bank. And its not just about punishing you its about you giving back to this community and you owe it and you owe this, you know, im i talk about mr. M. And how he when i ask them about Community Service and he was like, oh judge. It was terrible. I had to go clean this. Park and it was full of empty heroin envelopes and i thought well when he said he was terrible. I was hoping nothing bad had happened and as he rung his hands he said and i realized that it was my fault because i used that same park to get high. And before you sent me to the park to do Community Service, i had never been in the park when i wasnt high and i never noticed the children playing there every drug addict in the courtroom lord their head who better than this person to teach that lesson and i told him i said, i dont think the people in the suburbs. The kids in the suburbs dont have to see empty heroin envelopes in their parks, and i dont think the people in the suburbs love arent their children more than we do, but even the fact that he would have a feeling about that shows you that theres a human being that this humancentered justice is important. Theres a human being in there that when hes not high cares about his entity and what do we have to do as a part of the system and as a part of this community that we tap into it . It sounds like the very essence of therapeutic justice. You know what justice should reflect. Yeah, can give around. And chapter 4 you begin to touch on this notion of poverty not being around and in fact you write quote the scene before me. Was a the scene before me every day was was basically a scene of an abandoned america and i think that this is a powerful statement, you know, especially coming from a jurist. Can you win pack that further . How does that inform your practice . Well, someone is interesting, so i did a podcast and someone asked me if i was the president. What would be what would i do to further my criminal justice . Movement and i was like eradicate poverty. And he thought that eradicate poverty. Racism and i had a whole list of things and he thought it was strange that i said that maybe because he was in britain, but i said the reality is that so much of this is driven by poverty. We punish people for being poor. We punished them. I mean we make it illegal to sleep in the park. We make it illegal to smoke in public right and smoking in public in newark is being down at penn station trying to get catch the bus. And smoking out there because thats public property so you can get a ticket for smoking and if you live at penn station, youre definitely get in the ticket for that. And drinking in public right . And so if you are homeless the public is your home. And penn station, which is our unofficial homeless shelter because if you get locked into one of the train tracks, its warm people come down there and feed you. Theres a health truck that comes down once a week. And commuters will give you a dollar just to get you to move away from them. But were not addressing the issue of poverty instead. We see a homeless person and legislators. Not letting them off the hook because thats where we get our laws. Somebodys driving down the street and sees them a bunch of homeless people. At the park and theyre like, you know what im gonna go to the office and write up an ordinance to make it illegal to sleep in the park. Now they tell the Police Officers every time you see people sleeping in the park arrest them. And then now the officers have to arrest the sleeping the people who are homeless. And then to bring them down to the courthouse and now you want the court to impose fines and jail. Because the person is homeless sleeping in the courthouse when it was a governor who got rid of the Mental Health housing that created. More homelessness when its gentrification or as i caught like the it rentification thats causing people to lose their housing. And so its all its nonsensical. And so this idea that we not only punish people for being poor the Justice System also pushes people into poverty with costs and fines. Thank god we dont do this in new jersey, but theres paid to stay laws where if you get arrested in certain states, and you stay at the jail. You get a bill from the jail. For each day, you stay there now you didnt ask to stay at the jail. And when you dont pay the jail now you got another case. And so its this idea that we dont care about poor people because it doesnt affect us. Thats why the private prison industry is so terrible. Thats why. Private probation is a horrible idea you talk about going down and we dont have probation in new jersey, but its in the its in this country alabama ran them out of the state a person would go they would have a traffic ticket and have to pay 100 while they showed up with fifty dollars and they need a time payment. They need a payment plan to pay them next fifty dollars. So the judge puts them on probation a private probation to pay that 50. Well each month that you are on that private probation. You have to pay that private probation company. 2535 to pay off that last 50. When you dont pay now, you have a violation of probation this objects you to jail. And so its this idea that we are constantly. Shoving people into the system and then these fines chase them for years chase them for years and people cant get from underneath them and then what it does to women particularly black women because black and brown bodies particularly black. Bodies are in jails. Women bear the burden of litigation and incarceration whether its putting money in commissary whether its traveling whether its paying for the actual litigation whether its paying fines to keep their sons out of jail. The pay Child Support to keep their sons or daughters out of the system. What that looks like . And so there was a study i have it in the book. They the 83 of in of incarcerated folks there the cost of of incarceration so they pay for all of this stuff 34 of them went into debt. Just for litigation costs. 38 of the women that had to pay made less than 15,000. And over 13,000 in legal fees. And 65 could not even meet their basic needs when i talk about basic needs, you know, were talking about food. The electricity and so in newark, what what you would see in my court was a woman in her minimum wage suit popeyes some minimum wage to sitting in court waiting to find out what happened to her loved one. And shed be sitting so every hour that shes sitting in court. Shes losing money right and potentially losing her job. And so she sits in court waiting to hear what happened. Then she gets someone gets a bail. They get a bail and the person posted not understanding that bail again we go back to procedural justice in this idea of understanding bail is held until the end of the proceeding. Which takes months and if the person cant come back to court, you definitely dont need to be posting mail for them. I see them in two weeks, right . They would come back in two weeks. Judge. Can i have my bail . I need my bail back because that was my rent. Right now im like, but bail has to be held until the end. Of this litigation case to make sure this person comes back now this persons facing eviction. Because they dont have rent in advance. They dont have too much rent. They have that rent. And so again youre looking at even how traffic matters get people stuck in this cycle of poverty and they just never come out of it how our Education System also pushes people into this cycle of poverty and we ignore it because if its not directly impacting us, we just want our money money that we cant thats undeliverable as i call it so really and the courts in most places are your second or third highest revenue generator i talk about ferguson in the book and how ferguson exploded because the officers had to go out and ticket the poor people in this community so that the city could have money. To do what it needed to do. But what happens when you cant get money from them they get incarcerated so yeah, ive actually done a ferguson a few times on research and youre absolutely correct for many of the people down there the damages right from the court system are irreparable. Absolutely. Nothing that can be done to really to no no, and thats why the court needs to be involved in healing and thats why transform how transforming our court system can heal our communities because we are so often responsible for the damage thats caused in our communities and thats why when people say why with the court thats why because were causing this damage thats happening and these communities. Yeah, i love how i had back to society and you mentioned the legislators and so forth as well. It seems like you know anything that we dont want to do with as a society. We thrilled to the criminal Justice System, right which is just simply ill prepared to handle those those issues and we dont train we dont train officers like it was amazing to me to see in my courtroom how the officers became these peace officers who could identify Mental Illness who could identify when somebody was in danger they could identify all these things because we were looking for it. But then we send offices out and then we say okay deal with this person whos really big and being very aggressive when people are like, oh, well, what am i supposed to do when the persons being aggressive ask them if theyre hungry . Hello, because if theyre always hungry. And thats why we fed them in court. And so if you ask the wow, and you are you hungry . Immediately they come down. I mean im hungry now, and i know im gonna eat. Phone and im good right like but im gonna be a little im gonna have a little attitude but imagine you dont know where your next meal is coming from. And then whats next for you or whats next for you . And now somebody wants to stop you and talk to you about. Why you sleeping on the bench . I was sleeping. Youve irritated me now, so and keeping with this trainer thought in chapter 5 titled reforms that transform you you start you started talking about root causes some of what weve just discussed and solutions you nudity great work that organizations in newark are doing for instance the north Community Solutions the center for Court Innovation. Why is it important for us to raise the profile of these organizations . Because i think that the partnership with the judiciary is key when the center for Court Innovation came here and when Newark Community solutions was created jethroat touched on this. Went the library was one of the places they had a meeting where the community could come out. They went into the different wars asking people. What do you want justice to look like . And what was interesting was that the people in newark didnt say i want those guys on the corners to be locked up. They wanted them to get jobs. They wanted the drug added to get into drug treatment, and they wanted the court to be the place that did that work. And so when you talk to the community about how it wants to save itself the fact that you would talk to the community at all. Is significant because they know i would sit with my community providers. Im seeing this in court. What does this mean . Why is this happening . The young men are coming in and this old does thats happening because theres a turf war in this particular space of the community officers. Why am i seeing so many cases that look like this . So its this idea of being able theyre things that they can do that the judiciary and that often the judiciary is not comfortable doing but being able to send people to a place and connecting with organizations so that they know the courthouses a part of this Community Come in and be here like sometimes people would just come to court early and sit in the back of the courtroom, which i always thought was interesting. Would you hear five just came to see im like, yeah, youre not in trouble today hun. You just trying to make sure. Wow, do do to the time constraints . Im going to go ahead and skip down to my last two so we can get you to the end. Okay, um. You are a human being god look youre answering these questions eloquently and and i think adequately for all of us but you are also human yes, you are a human being youre a minority yourself what type of vicarious trauma have you had i would say sometimes id get off the bench and i felt like i was in a physical fight because i would physically feel like someone had put their hands on me because every case that comes before a judge and this is why judges need to understand vicarious trauma that they experience every case is a different problem and different trauma that theyre absorbing from the person that comes before them making decisions with the best amount information of information that you have. Hoping that when these folks leave nothing happens to them. Hoping that you caught whatever it was that might help them. And so you hear these stories again and again and again and you have to figure out how to break away from them if you understand that your job is mission work is hard because you dont leave it at work. You cant its impossible to just leave and be like, okay, im gonna go play soccer or whatever it is that you do, but you have to figure out and understand that sometimes youre feeling something thats not even yours. Is that person you left . And youre not sure if you made the right decision if you gave them enough information. And how its gonna whats going to happen like particularly Municipal Courts where we can have entire neighborhoods fighting and you give them a new court date. Oh you hope they dont go out there and have another block of fighting again. But you know, its its really that but the most important reason why particularly judges and officers and people who deal with these folks have to understand is that you cannot become numb to them. Because of the trauma that you were experienced you cannot and thats the first thing that we do is that we just shut ourselves down, but if you shut yourself down and youre youre gonna miss everything while those things are happening and the ultimate conclusion. What do you want readers to take away from the book most humanscentered justice . Has to be a priority. Has to be a child. Now were going to pivot to the judge. Shes going to read some very prominent excerpts. So im gonna read a treat come. Yeah, im gonna read this one. Oh boy. I thought i had a had the page. And im gonna put on my readers chapter one a better approach a nations success or failure and achieving democracy is judged by how well it responds to those at the bottom and the margins of the social order Sandra Day Oconnor picture this newark Municipal Court in newark, new jersey summer of 2012. Felt as hot as the sun itself in the brick city newarks moniker, of course, the faithful air conditioner was out of commission in courtroom 222, which house part two criminal court. An affectionately known as the deuce a sea of black and brown faces mostly black and belonging to mostly poor and mostly marginalized people packed the deuce. It was your typical urban courtroom inundated by low level offenders with high level problems for them seemingly insignificant interactions with the Justice System upended their lives. My tiny death fan was rattling beads of sweat gathered between my shoulder blades and inched down my back as i worked feverishly in my black robe made of my girls polly and esther. It was one of those days when the more people i moved out of the courtroom, the more people seemed to pop up in their place jamal henner as solidly built young africanamerican man with a honey brown complexion in a striped short sleeve polo shirt and jeans walked into the courtroom and plopped himself down on a rear bench. I hadnt seen him in years. I felt my irritation rise while i sat while he sat there with a blank stare his mouth. Lately a gate why is he here again . I wondered as i gave him the side eye. He was about 22 years old, but he had started getting arrested and appearing before me at age 18. Initially, i found his case is a bit odd. They were all harassment cases brought by his family members. They would go to his he would go to his relatives homes and incessantly ring the doorbell or he was stand outside their homes and yell at their windows instead of just letting him in they would call the police. I later learned that the early signs of schizophrenia began to reveal themselves and males at around the age of 18. After we successfully got him through Newark Community solutions a Court Program that provides alternative sentencing. He returned to my courtroom on new charges when i called the next case. I noticed he had put his headphones on and was rocking in his seat. I said sternly mr. Henry, you know, you cant listen to music in court. Take your headphones off. I shook my head and disapproval as a bead of sweat gathered at my right temple. He rolled his eyes as he removed his head his headphones. I quickly realized that this exchange was about my own misunderstanding. What was he doing . He was drowning out the voices in his head. He suffered from auditory hallucinations which cause a person to hear voices or music without any external stimulation. He attempted to cope with his condition by playing music louder than he hoped the voices could speak. Unfortunately i missed it. I knew about his diagnosis but in the heat i had forgotten to consider what it took for him to make it through a day in Court Watching mr. Henner out the corner of my eye and noticed that the 40 something year old white Police Officer assigned to my court had walked past him and stopped as if rooted to the spot the young man must have mudded something the officer did a double take inferred his eyebrows officer cosgrove and athletic darkhaired 20year Police Veterans veteran looked over his shoulder and responded to mr. Henrys comment. Then he shook his head and kept walking. I wondered why is office of cosgrove talking to mr. Henner doesnt he remember that mr. Henrys schizophrenia makes him hate and act aggressively towards Police Officers. Then it hit me like a highspeed moving train the Police Officers assigned to my court that day had been working with me for less than a year. They didnt know mr. Henner and mr. Henner didnt know them while the officers werent new to the police force. They were new to my courtroom and with certainly to this defendant. In this case, they had no expert no experience with mr. Henner one of our more challenging defendants who ended up in my courtroom, mr. Henna, mr. Henry. I yelled as i signaled with my hand gesture for him to approach councils table your case is next come up come up. Mr. Officer solomon and older husky paternal africanamerican man, casually walked over to mr. Henner and tapped him on the shoulder son. He said the judge just called your case. Oh, no, i thought. Wheezing my eyes shut officer solomon touched him my chest tightened even though no single wave is responsible for tsunami. I couldnt skirt from responsibility for the mayhem that was about to ensue. I pride myself on giving people who work in my court a heads up about challenging defendants on this day a massive caseload my irritation with mr. Henner and my preoccupation with moving cases along calls me to forget. To attend to that detail. It all happened so quickly mr. Henna shot out of his seat like a rocket. He landed with his chest out and his finger pointed in office of solomons face and yelling profanity profanities before i knew it the two officers and the Court Attendant were restraining mr. Henner who was lifting the 300 pound officer solomon off the ground officer cosgrove had mr. Henner in a chokehold. He was no longer restraining mr. Henner. He was in a fight. I had no instruction manual on how to handle the situation that was unfolding before me like other judges. I had only received guidance suggesting that when an incident encouraged in your courtroom, get off the bench for your own safety and avoid becoming a witness to the situation, but i believe that my job is to serve as a leader in that courtroom not to run and hide when an incident occurs. I was not going to abandon ship for mr. Henner because of his decompensating mental state the mere touch of the officer felt like an assault the Police Officers were responding according according to their training not some malice of harder to desire to unleash violence on the young man as i watched the chaos audience members running for cover staffers leaving their posts everyone observing in horror. All i could think of was eric garner. Mr. Garner and unarmed africanamerican man was killed by New York New York city Police Officer who placed them in a chokehold after stopping him for selling cigarettes as a pendant monium ensued in my courtroom. It was like i experienced deja vu vivid images of news footage flash through my mind of mr. Garner lying on the ground in a chokehold gasping for air being restrained by officers as he repeatedly cried out. I cant breathe this phrase this plea for mercy became the rally in cry for protesters across the country. I said to myself not here not today. According to the Research Individuals with untreated Mental Illness like mr. Henner are 16 times more likely to be killed during encounters with Law Enforcement than those who are mentally sound. Those killed by police are also disproportionately black and native american imagine the number of mentally ill people who have nonfatal yet traumatizing encounters with the police because of their mental state. This abuse continues throughout their contact with the Justice System in the courts probation jail or prison and parole. This is because just Justice System. Actors expect people to comply with their rules and obey commands upon issuance. They dont concern themselves with a persons limitations and how those limitations make it temporarily or often permanently impossible for a person to accomplish. The task commands is trivial as sit quietly in court. Stop making so much noise on this corner show up to your permission check on july 3rd, or not easily accomplished when you suffer from auditory hallucinations, this is compounded by the stark differences and perceptions of fairness in our country according to a Pew Research Center study 68 of black people surveyed said that black people are generally treated less fairly by the Justice System. Then whites why only 27 of white surveyed believe that blacks are treated unfairly by the Justice System. Rakea boyd, Michael Brown George Floyd Eric garner dante wright, Brianna Taylor was thanks king Police Shootings and killings of unarmed black men and women never seem seem neverending this unequal treatment extends to the imposition of harsh and desperate sentences for the same crimes people of color historically and presently have faced injustice. From the criminal Justice System and they carry memories of their own experiences and those of their friends families neighbors and acquaintances when they attend court to respond to their cases even without an instruction manual i had spent invaluable years watching ms. Elsa my mom handle the drug addicted the mentally ill and the emotionally unstable at her beauty salon barring from ms. Elsas playbook. I sat forward in my seat lord my voice and said mr. Hinner is judge pratt. Please listen to my voice. The Police Officers are not trying to hurt you. I need you to stop moving. At the same time a gestured with my hands for him to stop. While trying to break free he responded tell them to get off me judge. Cosgrove releases neck i said officer cosgrove gave me an incredulous look as if i had lost my entire mind. Nowhere in his 20 years on the police force had he been trained to respond in the way. I was directing. However, he had previously told me that he had seen things happen in my courtroom that he had never seen in the course of his career. He knew that i had a way of handling challenging people and difficult situations that brought about what he viewed as unbelievable unbelievably possible to have outcomes. He trusted me, so he released the young man from the chokehold huffing and puffing. Officer solomon and the Court Attendant both follow suit and release mr. Henner. I told mr. Henna to wait outside the courtroom and i directed the Court Administrator to give him a new court date mr. Henner was willing to listen to me because he had spent time in my courtroom where he had been treated with kindness acceptance and respect he trusted that i would keep the officers from hurting him and my courtroom everyone responded to his condition in a respectful patient manner that allowed him to maintain his dignity. Offers cosgrove the approached the bench and said hell be worse when he comes back judge. I replied watch. Procedural justice and the other techniques that i use to build trust save the day and a life on that sweltery morning in the deuce two weeks passed and mr. Henry returned to court when i called this case. I told him young man you owe this gordon apology. Officer cosgrove ran to the front of the courtroom and interrupted me judge. We worked it out. It was all a misunderstanding. He shook mr. Hinders hand. Wow. Mr. Henner was readmitted to the program a while later. He walked into court on a random day mr. Henry you dont have court today. I said, im not here to see you. He said sharply responded as if i had taken some liberty with my assumption that a person coming to court might be there. Me he walked over to office at cosgrove who dug into his wallet and gave mr. Henner lunch money to buy a soda and a hot dog from the cart in front of the court house. This became a regular occurrence or for solomon who would give him an extra lunch from those that had brought have been brought to the cell block for people being detained at one point mr. Henner had been detained and sent to the county jail due to a probation violation on a superior court manner officer solomon called the officers the sheriffs officers to advise them on how to handle him. It was sad to witness mr. Hinders Mental Health drive his contacts with the criminal Justice System and even the Justice Systems. Well intentioned attempts to address this behavior like placing him on probation were woefully inadequate. As it exists in our country the probation system requires one officer to supervise between 100 to 125 probationers. This is a system designed to fail then at a hearing to address a violation. Patient the court is asked to sort it out by restraining this unsuccessful relationship. Were sending the violator to jail. Although serious issues exist in the courtroom in the court system for addressing people with Mental Health needs i still managed to find ways to turn my courtroom into a resource the feelings of trust and mutual respect. I established created an environment where a veteran were veteran Police Officers and a young africanamerican man with schizophrenia. Were willing to step outside of the heat of the moment during one eventful day and behave in an unprecedented way. There was no arrests no trip to the coroners office, mr. Henry realize that these on these uniformed officers were not trying to hurt him the officers became better at crisis intervention and recognizing that many officers could be motivated many factors could be persons behavior. Now whats great about this is that i have some off theres some officers in here who worked with me. Im sorry. And that did this work and so they trained other people i talk about them in the book as well at about how when they left me they ended up training people and how i dragged other officers who had this humancentered approach to justice into the courtroom to help as well. Wow, see this is why. I have to get it. There are many more many more depictions of that element vulnerability. I guess at this point because i can say a lot more too, but i guess we will pivot to q a. If anybody has any questions yet, we can probably take two or three. Yes, please. Have a question in a comment. Yes, so it is a parent that are a real life superhero many people and so i wanted to know i kind of know, but i want everybody else to know how the whats your origin story like every great hero had oh boy origin story. How did judgment back that little girl . Lets go question right decide. I want to get into law. My mother was a hairdresser my father did you know, so how did i just yeah. What was that turning point for that little girl back in the day . I think its the same thing that upset me. And seeing my mother spoke with a very strong spanish accent and people got over on her all the time and were disrespectful. My father had like an eighth grade education and seeing how differential he had to be to whites because he meant he was born in harlem but spent his summers in the segregated south. So his experience in america was different and and getting angry and having to speak for people immigrants in my family who came to this country, but really getting angry about inequity and i charge everyone to do the same figure out that thing that really you off and dont just talk about it. Please stop posting about it. Stop posting about it. You know you you know you have these advocates that dont go and touch the people go touch the people about it go do something about it do that thing that makes you uncomfortable and scares you but be of service, you know be of service stop worrying about the likes. Stop worrying about the likes. What you describe in human centered justice is what we need, but how do we get there for me . I mean you talking about changing the whole system and i know youre thinking about this. I guess i want you to share with us. Im sure the book is part of it. But how do we get more of you on the bed . Oh, wow, you cant how do we get more people thinking same way that you are to be on the bench nationwide and go beyond that. So im doing a lot of trainings, but i think that we have to remember about what civics because i guess they dont teach it in school like why you vote people into office because you want your community to reflect what you want and what you think so you have to begin to hold people accountable for reforming criminal justice and putting people on the bench. Like i always laugh because then mayor now senator booker took a chance on me people told him foolishness like oh, shes too nice. Shes too little i think thats a real funny one. Shes too little im not trying to get on and ride at an amusement park. They should have been talking about my legal acumen, right . He was like, this is exactly what were about letting young younger people do this work. And so if you want people who care about folks, make sure youre electing people in new jersey and making sure theyre appointing judges. Who do this work. I was really fortunate because in a place like newark, we had folks like i laughed my mental judge gia and its here, you know, but i saw him and i was like, oh you can be real respectful, huh . And you know and then one of my other friends just really love that on the bench. I was like, oh, okay and and seeing people do this work. So we really have to insist. That our taxes go to that that our taxes go to that. I had the pleasure of watching you record. I also have the pleasure. Im sorry. One second. Um kristen. Yeah. She no. No, she has to go. Oh, yeah, okay. Im sorry. Im so sorry. I also have the pleasure of what are my students coming to me . And i said why have you missed so many classes said i was in court. He said who was the judge . Its a judge pride i said thank god because he was a College Students you he may have been dragged into the system now before me stole my my question, so im going to pivot. How does a judge who wants to be human centered . Stop themselves from becoming no. Well, thats it. I think you have to make a commitment to it. You have to make a commitment to it and when i tell you my entire staff checked me. You have to be like willing to be vulnerable judge you missed this. Judge, you didnt see this. You misunderstood this wow. Yeah, but im like, right because im not. Wearing a cape even though he thinks so, but at some point if you want to get better no matter what youre doing you have to be willing to listen. You have to be so i think that having a strong group of people around you who arent afraid to tell you the truth, and ive always had it. So if you cant tell me the truth and also being around folks who have experienced something right because if you havent experienced anything any heartache, i dont really want to run with you because that means that when things get tough for me, youre gonna tell me. Oh, no, thats not for you change. Do Something Different and so that thats how i think you achieve that. Youre welcome. Hello there. I can. Just pratt was my roommate in college at workers university. Oh my gosh. Since how people that im not sure. Im not please. Me do it. We got this. Im not sure exactly what would it become of me without victoria being. Oh, theres definitely some guidance there. Um, ill give you an example and ill keep it short. I like to change our room around a lot and were talking about a very tiny room. Yeah. So at any given time she could come back from class and be like, where are my sweaters . I think why do we have my bed now . Like its just was you know, and i would just think, you know, i needed to do this so every couple months. Im changing around. She never said a word she just dealt with it. Let me just get my bed over here. Wheres my computer and then one day she comes in and i look a little upset, but im not changing room around and she says whats going on with me and i said, yeah, this is bother me. You want to change your room around and i said what she was like, oh, i dont know if you notice but when youre upset and anxious you got something coming up. Thats when you change the whole room around. So maybe thats your thing that you need to do when youre anxious. Were stored justice yall at 8 00. Age 17. She saw me she understood what i needed. She stayed back and she was supportive of me at age 17. I love you. Nothing too. Hi, judge, fred. I just want to say to you. Thank you. Oh, thank you. You have saved my life you i am one of those people, you know that came through your court and i was broken and beat down i had lost my son. It was nothing ahead. No. Oh but you gave me hope when i came to your court james later. You told me i didnt come back. Shed want to send a patrol car out to come and get it. So i know she was my plan. Thank god for that. Because now im an activist. Yes. I think youre nine information. I met them Vice President of the united states. Im a true activist for people and that is because of the work that you have done you see us. Thank you. We want to be seen we all have problems. But just see us know that we exist. And youve done that for me and i am eternally grateful for that. I have a good life now. I have my children. I have an apartment i have friends. And youre one of them. Oh, yes. Well, thank you for coming out. Thank you. I saw my husband come in. Maybe hes still here. The first phone call i had with this man almost 10 years ago. He said how many books are you going to write . I said, excuse me. It took and i want to thank my family. I see my cousin. She was i just got off the plane from dubai who called me every day to my friends who came up from camp to everyone who loved on me while i was being unlovable running and writing this book sent me texts. Thank you. Thank you guys for your continued support their books in the back. Theres a reception. Oh, im sorry. I didnt even see you. Its okay, but thank you. I did want to thank you personally. Thank you and stacy