Franklin d roosevelt president ial library museum. Im bill harris. Im the acting director here and ive been the Deputy Director for a few years. And so we really appreciate you coming this evening to be a part of this program. And its great to welcome people back to on site here for programing id also like to thank our cspan audience who will be joining us as well and and welcome them and also you to other and new programs we have into the future. Just a bit of housekeeping here. Well speak for a little while and then when there are questions, when we get ready for questions over here is a microphone. And if youd please just queue up at that microphone so that we can get the best sound and can respond to your questions accordingly. So this evening, id like to welcome david patricia, hes the author of roosevelt sweeps nation. Fdr is 1936 landslide and the triumph. The liberal idea. Its a very good book. Ive read and i thoroughly enjoyed it. And as i was saying to david back in the green room, what i enjoy about a book and about his book is when you agree with it and when you dont agree with it, because that means youre thinking and engaging with the topic and so i think he did a really good job. Welcome, david, and were glad to have you tonight. Glad to be here. Which george, the first so well many people know you from your your various books in the past and this one and i was just curious because you frequently pick a year or a specific a very specific in time and the personalities surrounding it do how do you get to those points . What made . You pick 1936. I thought thered a story there and and there was and often these big blow out years that have not been covered a lot by people, the fellow who covered it the most. Oh, Arthur Schlesinger jr. He in his in his book on the new deal he goes into the lead up to 1936 and the election itself and whats going on just politically and historically a great deal otherwise as a stand alone kind of ill served and you know it is Franklin Roosevelt and it is the depression. And we talk about this as as keystone in american history. And so why not cover it and and also get to the get to the events around it i always like to get to the back story i like to see what else is going on beside the there was a review last week in the new york sun and it said this was a biography by indira rection. Okay meaning im covering franklin but im not i the spotlight is not on him. The time and the spotlight is you know he pops in the you know every every few chapters. So where hows he going to react to this but i also think i have to cover because im covering the nation and politics as a whole. Whats the opposition to him often the opposition defines what is going on and. So he is able make opposition to the opposition work in a masterful way because he is so masterful because hes he thinks politics 24 seven he just eats sleeps drinks it and has been forever. And hes just good at it. Well thats what strikes me about 1936 too is since it was such a blowout, you you know what the story is. It seems very straightforward, doesnt it . He was very popular. He wins reelection and what the way in which you weave opposition and it isnt just one mammoth opposition, its multiple opposers coming from all different sides and angles and directions and so the way in which its broken into character as much as issue i find fascinating as yeah. Without, without reading too much into it its like the all the white army opposing the bolsheviks in like 1918 or something and they they can get together or theyre not all on the same. Maybe theyre, theyre mensheviks, maybe theyre tsarist and all this. So the people opposing Franklin Roosevelt are, are populists like huey long and, and father coughlin and gerald l. K. Smith or might be the marxists the socialists, the socialist party themselves with Norman Thomas or the communist party. The standard of various ilk and the republicans. Theres a whole spectrum, you know, the parties you know, the parties are far more homogeneous now. But back then, not just the southern democrats versus, the western democrats in the William Jennings bryan people and the tammany democrats and the liberty democrats, the more conservative, the big Business People who are opposed to roosevelt and the republicans as the republicans are, you know, where where are they going. And 1936 is kind of the triumph and theyll be sort of knows it. No, this is it. But it is triumph of the tr bull moose republicans because you have alf landon who had supported roosevelt in 1912 when he splits the Republican Party, his running mate, frank knox, who had done the same. And even in 1932, herbert had been then one of these bull moose sayers. And then you see in the roosevelt cabinet, you see many of the of the remnants of that Movement Like harold ickes and henry in and then and people in the Administration Like donald k richburg, who have who are influential and Felix Frankfurter was was a a tr person. So this in in the political spectrum is not quite alive and well, but it is something that has to be taken into account well and were still were talking about the depression the depression eight over. Okay so whats going to happen is the glass half empty or half full . In november 1936, the Unemployment Rate is still hovering around 13, 14 . That aint good, but its best its been since 1931. So are you still going to have people discontented by what hasnt been done or what Campaign Promises havent kept or are you going to say you, know if things are right well . Franklin will think of something to make right later on. We have confidence in him and hes got to get through point and thats what i find fascinating too about the opposition and about, well, the people speaking in opposition maybe thats a better way to put it. We see it in the correspondence in our collection from the general public, but from columnists and so forth, and the vehemence of the opinion that was that formulated against him, it was one thing in 1932, it seems, when the nation was in such a state that hoover would have had a time, regardless of any whoever his opponent would have been. But after roosevelts office and and programs commence or new policies are enacted. The opposition, we think today of the vehemence of opposition, the vitriol against candidates. It is quite striking how negative of and how personal the attacks were against the president and frankly the first lady to my original subtitle was the campaign that ran on hate. Okay and so everybody sort of hates everybody and Franklin Roosevelt himself is running a very class warfare kind of Campaign Starting his state of the Union Address in december 1935, which the New York Herald tribune is very bitter regard to his business opposition, and which huey Lewis Mchenry how advisors advises franklin. You know, go it, take it to him. Thats one of his last pieces of advice. And then on the convention in his speech in philadelphia following his nomination, where hes talking, you know, we remember rendezvous with destiny, but what the phrase he really likes is economic royalists and so hes still banging on that. And then his final speech in 1936 of the campaign, his final one is at Madison Square garden, which is very and raging and very angry where hes talking, how all these forces are arrayed against him and how they hate and how they will meet their master in his second term and shocks even people like his secretary, labor frances perkins, and the ray raymond mosley, and even his supporters wondering, you know, whats the deal, it strikes me the opposition and i mean that in the broad term of the various opposers are speaking the president or at him perhaps, and hes speaking sort of beyond all of them, into the people who actually are going to be casting that ballot. Yeah. He he speaks to the american public. Mean we know that we know the fireside chats and one of the questions i get in these interviews is whats the most surprising thing that the titular and when you were doing this and this question completely befuddles me because i have too many ideas, facts in my head. But occurred to me in the last 24 hours, maybe how reticent and shy franklin was in campaigning. I noticed youre youve made it. Theres a comment in there somewhere, a quote in a. Yeah, i dont have it about about him being shy and that is not generally the way one thinks of fdr and yet often public persona is one thing. And in is quite another. Yeah, i think eleanor that that his, his keeping his feelings hidden may be a part of his shyness, but his shyness that im referring to is calculation in terms of the political warp and wolff of of the of the fabric of the campaign and theres a quote which i left in the green room. But what Franklin Roosevelt is saying is you, the American People can only stand the sight of the the same name and the headlines so much and the same voice on the radio so much before they will tire of it and get sick of it. And he realizes this and its like, boy, well, isnt he the man on the radio all the time with the chats. No he only gives about 16 of these i think. And from april. 1935 to septem ber, 1936, there are none. And he comes out in september 1936. Its like, well, isnt a big political speech . No, its because theres this mass civ second round of of not quite a dust bowl, but theres this heat wave going in the country which is frying not only the midwest, you know, and and the upper midwest, 120 degrees in north dakota and the the steel ball bending in in the buildings in new york city. So he gets on the radio to talk about this. But again for all those months hes not the radio with any of with any of of a pitch the American People and so we know alf landon wasnt the candidate in the world okay might have been a nice guy but not the best candidate and he tried go gentle on the now before who. Yeah who didnt get past fdr. Right so we dont lets not kick them too hard when hes down but hes pretty down in this campaign now. He, as is often the case, does not the political the Nomination Convention which nominated him in 1936 but you know hes whats he then going to do . He goes on vacation in colorado and he doesnt he doesnt start his campaign for weeks and weeks. But then what does the political mastermind Franklin Roosevelt do after his convention he gets on a boat, savannah, and starts flowing ing around the north atlantic on the coast of maine and, the coast of of New Brunswick for two weeks in the middle of the campaign. And eleanor and jim farley and harold ickes are all pulling their hair. You know whats going on this campaign. But again, just sort of letting the republicans kind of destroy themselves and and save his energy, really, for the for the for the for the save it for the end. Hes asked at the end after the campaign with the election returns come in, why he had missed so badly and underestimated his count in Electoral College which he which he actually and he said well that was my noted conservative streak well if youve outland and but the question is sort of to me how did they get to outlanded well sort of the way the republicans got to Richard Nixon in 1960, they had had a bloodbath in 1958 and a lot of the talent was was gone. So when you had a bloodbath in 1932, followed by a really unprecedented in 34 where the democrats are supposed to lose seats and gain seats. Theres theres not a lot of republicans out there to choose from. Herbert hoover wants to come back. He wants to get his rino. The revenge of hoover. But thats thats not going to happen. And there are some other candidates who really are not theyre not going to make the trip either. Senator borah of idaho always was very progressive and is a pal of franklin and is seen more than a few too many at the white house, conferring with him for the more conservative of republicans to fully trust him. And also, hes like 71 years old, which 71 years old is really old back then. And so hes not going to get the nomination because. The the more conservative element in the party is not going to back. And hes always been hes not a team player. Even even ideology aside. And arthur vandenberg, who is not quite ready for in michigan, a senator who is who is going to become known as the internationalist guy after world war two. And frank knox, a newspaper publisher, you see a lot of Newspaper Publishers in politic back then. I mean, really in politics, not just influencing, you know, what appears on the page. And then this alpha lantern guy, landon. Had been in oil in kansas, not in texas. And. 1930, he runs for 1932, he runs for office in kansas. And theres crazy split. Theres democratic governor and you know, he should be elected in 1932. But then there is this quack who is very and has a Radio Station where the signal that can reach to mexico from kansas and he he was the goat gland doctor so if you had a problem with a certain certain if you had certain problems youd go see him hed fix your up. If he didnt kill you or make you sick. But the election returns are basically. Its a rare three way race and it ends up with basically land in 34 to democrat 32 and this quack 30 so hes and then hes got to get reelected. 1934 and he manages that hes one of the few republicans on the statewide level to to make the trip and hes known as the kansas coolidge a nickname which really frosts him because hes not conservative at all. Hes balanced the budget. Hes cut spending. But he is a progressive republican come out. And when lorena is out traveling country getting there her to see whats going on out there in the hinterlands. She hears land and speak. In 1934 and says, boy, the democrats are going to be in real trouble because the republican governor seems to be a new but how he arises from that is situation. His career catches the ear. One of those newspapers men a publishers in in politics William Randolph hearst and all before him another guy named paul block who a very small time guy with papers in pittsburgh and new jersey and he talks to hearst and they go out they get on the big train and the private car Cissy Patterson the newspaper woman from washington, d. C. , they all go out to kansas to check this guy out and. They say, oh, hes just the most marvelous candidate. Hes guy who can who can make the trip and beat Franklin Roosevelt. Well, by the Time Convention starts and they devote all kinds of ink, the newspapers that are run hearst and also the magazines they send out, damon runyon to interview to land. And now theres their oil and water, though. Damon runyon is from colorado. Mr. Time square. And and one of the questions he asks is, do you stand on prohibition . You know because kansas still had prohibition and landed actually i dont know if landed dances around that but but the damon runyon knows what he has to do for mr. Hearst and he really dances around it so. The delegates are there the delegates are there by the time the convention arises. And and land and land and gets the nod. So weve got land and. Hes our establishment, the Republican Party nominee. Yeah. Then youve got what turns out to be a sort of array of people, a variety of ideas or program amps that promote old pensions, everything from that to well. And till unfortunately, when he was assassinated or depending on how your narrative of the book, of how ones personal view of huey long is, then you have this huey character who is now this, you know, sort of tragic figure of epic bumpkin proportions as. He is often portrayed, but he a real threat. Yeah. When he goes on the radio to blast the new deal and like 34 and 35 he draws a bigger audience than Franklin Roosevelt does with his fireside chats because no offense to Franklin Roosevelt. Well huey long is a better speaker i mean theres few people who are more entertaining than you would want to listen to, including father. There was another guy we we could get to very shortly so long had not wanted to Franklin Roosevelt in 1932 and he thought that Franklin Roosevelt was stingo as a candidate that he could actually lose to Franklin Roosevelt. But he is convinced by burton k wheeler, who is the progressive democrat, senator from montana to and when i say progressive, i mean not only small p but big p because he had run with la follette in 1924, he bolted the democrat party. But he was he was very big for Franklin Roosevelt in 32. And he convinces huey long to back roosevelt he says, i dont like you son of a , but ill vote for him and goes out and campaigns for roosevelt, the upper midwest. Because often what you do with guys that you dont want, you dont know what to do with and you want you send them to areas where you think theyll be of no effect and the democrats are stuck by what in effect huey long has in there. Well, the effort northwest mean upper midwest is a George Wallace country, too much later, another southerner, henry wallace. I didnt know George Wallace in 68. Who owned it quite well. Yes, it was. So theres a theres something that theres that theres a radical theres a radicalism up there where we think of that as a conservative area. Now, it is not. And in fact. Well, jumping ahead. So i wont go anyway. So i wont jump ahead. Sorry, but but the so long gets tired of roosevelt very quickly determines hes the to be president. Well hes always that always that and that he will run independently, split enough votes which is often the third party strategy. Its like were not so delusional that we think were going to win, but we can muck this up for the party that we are bolting and. Long says, yeah, ill put the republicans in and they mess it up worse than hoover, and ill come back on a white horse in 1940 and i will just waltz into the white house. Though hes assassinated 1935, which leaves his his many in his equally almost equally oratorical genius. This guy, the reverend gerald l. K. Smith, adrift left and then smith not to be confused. Al smith, another gerald, another at the other, another disaffected smith, former roosevelt backer teams, up with frances townsend. You mentioned the old age pension schemes up townsend comes out of the california and says were going to give everyone 20 to hundred dollars a month. Everyone over 65 gets 200 a month, which big bucks than Franklin Roosevelt. This idea and its going to be for and basically series of of use of a transaction taxes every time a product goes through a process of manufacturing or sale or its going to be taxed at 2 . So you make the bottle and then you make the cap and then you put a label on it, and then you ship it out to the warehouse and then it goes to the store, 2 , 2 , 2 , 2 . So its a very heavy, regressive, almost like a sales tax. Franklin roosevelt hates this idea. Hes not crazy about Social Security at first. This is mind blowing thing. But he says like, nope, i to do Unemployment Insurance first. Harry hopkins, shut up. But then as this townsend plan keeps growing and growing in popularity the day after the townsend plan is introduced in the house of representatives. Bang zoom Social Security is introduced and steals the thunder of of of of of townsend but townsend is ticked off the remnants of the long people are ticked off and father charles coughlin, the radio priest who really almost comparing Franklin Roosevelt jesus christ in 1932 explained who who father coughlin is because hes a is a sort of remarkable and appalling figure and surprising Catholic Priest would wind being this immensely influential and popular radio personality of the era. Um yeah. Hes got this little tiny parish and start the parish is just starting out. He has literally like a dozen families in the twenties. Hes not even american. Hes born in canada to an american father. So maybe he is american. But people were arguing that if you dont like him, hes not an american hes a canadian. And he goes on the radio with childrens stories and hes im not going to get involved in controversy. Well, that didnt last too. And before long, hes blasting prohibition. Hes blasting the gold standard. Hes a big silver and hes blasting Herbert Hoover. And as early as 1930, when the Elections Come in, returns come in in new york state and Franklin Roosevelt coasts to reelection victory, its like roosevelt is the all the way through. Hes for roosevelt and he thinks going to be some sort of advisor to him as al smith did when. When roosevelt takes over the governorship of. New york. Well, Franklin Roosevelt is made of sterner stuff and he sees through coughlin does not like him at interesting enough, one of the people bringing coughlin his attention early on is Hall RooseveltEleanor Roosevelts brother, who who is the comptroller of the city of york, working for frank murphy, who had been one of coughlins alter servers. But so they break back very early on and then all the stars and all the nuts, real align in 1936, where coughlin and smith of gerald l. K. Smith and townsend all get together to nominate because huey long is gone a north dakota congressman named william lemke, originally a republican and hes one of these guys, Franklin Roosevelt has this great skill, you talk to him for 15 minutes and you come away and you think he agrees with you. Lemke had, gone in as a republican in 1932 to hyde park, comes away thinking roosevelt is going to support his agricultural policies. And he goes in the exact opposite direction with the nra promoting scarcity where lemkin wanted to promote export ports. So all these guys, cole says, they have some rallies, big rallies look kind of like nuremberg rallies, and they look nuremberg rallies because they the backdrops are designed by the famed architect philip johnson, who really survives his pronazi leanings to become one of the premier architects of the late century. And he had got the idea for these backdrops he had attended a hitler youth rally in germany. Well, thats an interesting point that you make about whats going internationally in terms of the rise of, nazism and fascism in, europe and the comparison this i find fascinating. I always have because you could you could throw anything, fdr, from any direction that either he was a radical or he was a black shirted. And what how could that possibly be how could people come at him from every direction and none of it stuck . How the people are, you know, it the rorschach test of fact, you know, its like what whether you want to see whether you are whether you want to admire what you want to hate, but talking about whats going on in europe, Franklin Roosevelt has also been this shifting shape on isolationism or intervention. I mean, by the time we get into the 1940 campaign hes mr. Intervention and hes being the wilsonian you know, International List in the twenties to get the nominee in in 32 and to currie William Randolph hearst support that year he turns his back on the league of nations and then tries to get into the world corps. Father cog, leonard huey long and people like that bill borah all opposed that and sink it. But then with the spanish civil war up, as in 35, 36 as the prolog to okay people. Oh this could be going very badly and we could be in another world war again the the fact that roosevelt has the Foreign Policy experience in the white house helps him against alf landon who is like from topeka. Okay he has the gravitas. But again where is roosevelt going that he strikes first in this debate because its way to a trip through the midwest to inspect the drought conditions. He stops in chautauqua new york. The you Chautauqua Institute and. He gives a speech where he says i have seen war, blah, blah, blah, blah. I hate war. And so he stakes out the isolationist position there and. Its very effective. And i think helps cement a lot of the progress of the residues of progressive midwestern and western republicanism guys like borah and the old lafollette crowd and the folks out in california. Well, its youve got someone like coughlin who an immense Radio Audience by this point from that little from that Little Chapel on to which i guess he helped fund its growth and upkeep through his radio appearances. Oh yeah. The money the money flows in but in huge amount. Yeah. So youve got these people with this far reach and theres a of course theres a people forget that though the president won in a landslide, there were still a sizable portion against him. So why werent why wasnt the opposition able to sort of bring those elements which were obvious about how could challenge fdr . If you he was so skillful as a politician but how were they not able to capitalize i guess through the Newspaper Publishers and their access across the country, their audiences, the Radio Audiences couldnt they couldnt they you know, doctor towns and the reverend smith, father coughlin. None. These guys had been in politics before. Franklin roosevelt had been doing answer, you know. Well, hes baked in 1810. Yeah. So knows how to do this stuff. Jim farley knows how these guys are amateur. Years and thats part of it. And money. Lemke has almost no the communist party has more money spend than this supposedly big threat. Okay. Which turns out to be a dud, which only gets 1. 2 . I think of the popular vote. Of course, part of that is because they dont know how to get on the ballot. Towns in is from california but they miss getting on the ballot in in in california they dont get on the ballot in new york they dont get on the ballot in. So its its amateur night. Then you got the the conservative who no are smart enough theyve been politics before boy have they in politics before Franklin Roosevelt. The support the of the previous two democrat nominees thats like unprecedented really al smith and john w davis the john jacob rajskub who had been the democratic committeeman, is against them. Some former governors are against him, but they are too small, a grouping to be to be able to coalesce and to bring anything against really what is, you know, when youre well, you have a program of relief, which is that massive when you have so many people either on relief in the wpa or the p. W. A or any of the federal Theater Project or any of these things, youre not going to be able to, shall we say, beat santa clause and, the Liberty League people are wall street people. So these are the people who are being blamed, named for the mess that franklin inherits. And i think somebody says maybe its borah who says, you know, if youre getting a if youre getting check, you dont care if its constitutional or not and you certainly dont want to hear this not constitutional from. Some guys who may have caused the depression in the first place. Well, i think thats a very good point in that. And i dont even i even have a chance. And then theres the republicans. But because we want to get to questions but they wont work with the Liberty League people. Well, its fascinating to and i this is where i begin to have some disagree events in the in the book but thats the good the good piece of it though i said at the beginning is that it seems too reductive to me to say that it is. I know youre not it simply but that a large portion of the American Peoples decision in 36 was based on whether they were getting a check. I think theres more going on there. Even it comes down to something is is seemingly simple as giving people a sense of hope or does mean there is there is the hope thing and the removal of fear. Okay so. Once youve removed the fear of your bank bust, the money goes into the banks and very quickly and thats thats a big part of fueling the private recovery. And then its like well, i wont have to count on selling apples in the street. Okay. So the fear is is removed, but, you know, getting that check doesnt hurt. And gallup takes, a poll early on. Oh, well, its spring, spring 1936, early on in the election year. And know where is fdr support . Men and women farmers. He has, you know, very big on the farm relief funds. He breaks it down. 78 . Well in that maybe because people finally that there was someone in power who was actually them out. Well yeah instead of taking advantage of them its a point of conversation which is right its all there. Many pieces of the mosaic. Yeah. So i think we want to take some questions. Sure. And if anyone has any question, please step here down to the microphone. If not, then im going to. We dont have anyone right away. Please formulate your questions. Ive got one. And that is about polling. And we all know live and die by polling today we know and and the last couple of elections polling has been as much of the story as story. Polling is supposed to be helping us understand it lets talk about polling in 1936, the the big story it seems like the only story of the 1936 election in a lot of textbooks and brief histories is how bad the polling is. The literary digest says that landon is going to carry 31 states. He carries two states and theyre not even big states. Theyre maine and vermont were either eight electoral votes in the whole shebang. Besides that goes to Franklin Roosevelt. So do they get it wrong . Well, they got it wrong because they were not scientific polling, not like we have today, which never gets it wrong. But what what they would do is they theyd sort of mail out ballots to two people and people mail them back starting as far back as 1916. And they they get right. All way through all the way. They even get new hampshire, which is is like 16 votes or something in 1916, some crazy really they get it right. And then in 1932, the democrats oh Josephus Daniels in his newspaper in north carolina, roosevelts old pal from the navy department, old boss says, you know, we might this will cancel this and just go with the results from the from the literary digest. But theres a danger signal for digest where they get everything wrong and they get every state. They get every state. Kentucky, right. In 1924. So theyre theyre but in 1934, theres a election with Upton Sinclair of claire runs on the end and in california kind of a radical program as the democratic nominee in california and they get it they they they get it right the republican wins but they get the percentage really, really wrong well beyond margin of error. You ever seen. So theres theres theres a straw in the wind there they could go wrong then the scientific boys get involved. Gallup, the famous one, gallup got it right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. July 12 july 12, 1936. You are there and George Gallup says. Alf landon ahead in the Electoral College. Hes not ahead in the popular vote, but hes a little ahead in the election Electoral College and he gives a talk massachusetts and he says this is going to be the closest election of this century. So even he gets it wrong. Now, at that point in time. But then by the time that the election comes around, he says Franklin Roosevelt is going to win. Hes going to win the Electoral College. Hes going to get Something Like 53 of the vote. Well, he gets like 60 some percent of the vote. So even even he is very off there. Is there other polls who get it right . The republicans have private polling. They have the Nielsen Group doing it. You know, the people do radio and tv and i think their last poll, they have roosevelt ahead 53. They know whats coming okay behind the and the hearst you know, hearst is very much opposed to roosevelt at this point. His pollster gets right. Hes doing, i think, the crossley people and theres another group which is hired by fortune magazine. And they predict in the 60 range. And they had been predicting from 60 in january and with the smallest possible sample. So it was very interesting to see just how it worked and didnt work. Also, the democrats have a pollster too. And at this point being called the real genius because he got things really right in 1932 and 1934 and he was on the cover of magazine and from january of hes saying were in trouble. Were in trouble, gang. Hes saying, i dont if we can carry new york, i dont know. We can carry michigan. We problems. And charlie, who had been the big hatchet for the Democratic Party against Herbert Hoover is in the at the time of the Democratic Convention saying were going to lose 100 seats in the house. There are a lot of people not just literary digest who are who are scared silly about this this election on the democratic side two guys who are not scared silly john nance garner, the Vice President of the united states, who when they keep saying you ought to go out and talk he keeps like its egos egos. You know we got to say and then texas there with the half that when you have rope to steer you dont have to for mcgwire we got this within the bag and Franklin Roosevelt is telling people early on when sam rosenman is speechwriter either comes in and says i dont know i dont know where, you know, this is. Theres many months between and the convention and dont worry and hes hes the dont worry guy and hes of course right but hes not that right. Hes not that right. Well, we have a memo in our files that we like to bring out and Eleanor Roosevelt writing to the to the campaign folks. You know it. And shes saying theres a complacency. She feels dont we cant organizing the media who organizing students whos organizing this that or the other and. You know weve got to take this. This aint january. Yeah, this is this is around labor day. And shes telling everyone shape up. Thats exactly right. Theres no politics is is about work. Its not to be take it for granted as so many politicians make that fatal mistake we got someone to question. Would you tell us something about the relation kinship breakdown if there was a breakdown between Franklin Roosevelt and al smith and or was or were they all, we set odds with one another and did they ever make up . Probably they probably their first instance, they werent enamored with each other because fdr starts out as an ed anti tammany politician and. Well, no, he starts out as an anti tammany politician in in the senate. And they have a new york state senate. And theres a brouhaha. I said who they are going to name because legislatures name the united states. And theres then tammany had a candidate and Franklin Roosevelt was in charge of the cabal too, to block them. But he goes to al smith, who knew every rule backwards and forwards in new york and and its like can i can i go against the party. Al smith says if you dont attend the caucus, you can vote as you wish so actually their relationship is kind of good, even from the beginning. And then it al smith if any was a mentor to to roosevelt and you might say louis howe but hes not really a mentor. Hes a you know hes a hes the little evil guy. But the mentor is al smith, who when roosevelt now smith had wanted guy named bert cochran speaking great orators to nominate him 1924 Winston Churchill modeled his speaking style on bert cochran. Hes the guy you wanted, but he was dead, so he had to turn to somebody else and machine politicians often turned to patrician, protestant, clean guy. So the patrician clean guy is Franklin Roosevelt. Al smith says, nominate me in 24. And when he does that, hobbling up on those crutches people are like, wow, this is this is something they say and Franklin Roosevelt is back. And then in 1928, when al smith does get the nomination, he is. Nominated again by Franklin Roosevelt. But more importantly, he wants his flank covered in new york. So he says frank, i want you to run for governor. And doesnt want to do it. Eleanor puts the pressure a little bit or opens up the contacts roosevelt and doesnt think, you know, i dont think he saw a depression in 28 because he didnt think the time was to to run for his ascension to the to the presidency. So but runs he wins narrowly and then al smith thinks hes to be the you know the power behind the wheelchair hes going to Franklin Roosevelt what to do as governor roosevelt is not going to do that he fires two of al smiths best aides really. Whats womans name . Oh, im going to forget her at the others. Bob moses. The other one is bob moses, thereby. Hangs a tale, thereby hangs many a tale. Bell moskowitz thats and so theyre kind of on the outs but they dont really get on the outs again until the 1932 campaign when roosevelt tries to or when smith tries stop the roosevelt juggernaut and really does grinding to a halt. The latter primaries. But then smith is kind of is double crossed by william magnitude mcadoo rose his old rival wilsonian Wilson Wilson his son in law former secretary of the treasury and they swing over William Randolph hearst. This is a real soap opera and and al smith you know supports the ticket 32. But as he sees roosevelt moving more and more leftward and as his old benefactors george jacob rascoff, who builds the Empire State Building and then hires al smith to. Manage it for 50,000 big ones a year. Is is in back of this Liberty League al smith comes on board on that and then gives the speech at the beginning of 1936 at the Mayflower Hotel in new york, in washington, dc, where he really rips the hide off the new deal and and the relationship is never really the same after that. And al smith is not going to back in in 36 even by 1932, though, a way you just get a sense that. Smith is a character from another that he represents something through tammany hall thats already becoming antiquated tammany hall basically crashes and burns in 32 because of the corruption scandals with mayor jimmy smith is the one who tells walker, you know, in a meeting youre washed up, jimmy. You know, you its over. And we see now in new york state, you know, whether governors remove officials, local officials and the walker was having to up to albany the executive mansion to plead his case and between the lack of support from smith just and his brother died walker brother dies at saranac lake of tuberculosis in the middle of this and he just is like im charlie here here and he flees to europe but that is really the breaking of tammany power which ascended in the twenties to its highest where they had smith as governor, where they had smith as the president nominee. And they everything okay. And then boom, boom, boom, 1929, i think they dedicate the new tammany hall wigwam headquarters at union square. Franklin roosevelt is there to help dedicated. And then by 32, walker is out and by 34 feel around laguardia as mayor of new york city and candidate and thats you know thats thats all she wrote well its interesting in our files here at the library what we dont have related to the governorship certainly in the campaign and our materials most likely related to tammany because what we learned in our administrative files is that boxes were sent down to before they were in our collection sent down to new york city to sam roosevelts apartment in central park west, and then they were sent back to the library. And there seem to be fewer boxes that came that went down. So, sam was a very loyal god lately. So there clearly, you know, making sure that the record is is nice and clear when it comes to new york and tammany and new york ugly the brutality of new york state politics probably in new City Politics on top of that. Well there are probably a lot of letters based when the going was good and where franklin was running with the backing of tammany governor that were all very pleasant to him and also the like the appointments you he was he was appointing tammany people to judgeships he appointed judge crater oc you know he appointed any number of of crooked back then. Well i feel like we could probably go on and on because weve hardly scratched the surface on some of the topics. And this is why i this book so much because in condensing it to a particular period and being able to really more deeply into the personalities involved, it opens up a world of questions which you only want to learn more about and that to me is ultimately, oh, and ill give you a great compliment. I think the detail the little the little descriptors, the ability color is seen make. You feel like youre right there is really nicely done in here. So congratulations and such a