Transcripts For CSPAN3 After 20240706

I thoroughly enjoyed it and im really looking forward to our conversation today. Thank you. Its really so to be here with you. Yeah. Would love to start by just simply asking about the Research Project itself. You know, being a i was just fascinated by all the different kinds of things you were looking at from the official records housed in the National Archives, newspapers, census records, family photographs, all of it, and it sounded like, from the way you describe the process, you basically been researching this Family History for a very long time. So maybe you could start by taking us back to when you start first. Think about writing a family or researching your Family History and what brought you there. Sure. Absolutely. Thank you. And i just want to say that mott is about the impact of the exclusion act laws on four generations of my famy in new yorks chinatown. As we landed out in the American West then did a reverse migration across country before eventually landing in the same tenement apartment in the heart of new york city on mott street. And it really is about my journey to understand my family and then how uncovered so much more so. Youre absolutely right that this book goes back so far in terms of my own genesis as a young person growing as a fifth generation chineseamerican icon in new york, i was estranged from my father, raised by a single mom. So i didnt know my dads side, the family, and yet i. I did know that i was a descendant and, a proud descendant of a chinese worker. And a lot of the stories that i heard growing. They were not reflected in the history books that i read or the lessons that i was taught when i was in school and part of the impetus this book was really to try rectify, you know, the familys stories with what was learning. So to get back to your question about the research, i would say that. So the short answer that i started researching this book from 15 onwards like that from 2015 onwards, it was sole project, but actuality. Ive been collecting these stories ever since i was a child. And one of the first stories i ever heard was about my great, great grandfather who worked on the nations first transcontinental railroad, which united the after the civil war. So, so, so there those oral stories that i heard that were so to me as young person and but then there was the research to answer your Research Question it was the research that happened as an adults we can kind of take this in several stages because i know that some of the research that i did happens in the nineties in a local archive in new york which had its genesis as, the chinatown history project then became the chinatown History Museum. And back in the when i discovered that my chin grandfather, who i did not know growing up because i was estranged from that side of the family, i knew from his obituary that he had an oral history at the museum and all the way back then i was in search of that oral history. I did not get my hands on that oral history until some something years later. But i, i can say i would love to give a shout out to all of the many people who are working in local, particularly archives is for marginalized communities where larger museums are not saving these important archives of individuals who are important to stories. Tell if if those young historians did not do that work back then i dont think i could have done, you know, significant sections of this book. So its a shout out to those folks and. I know that you as well used to work at that museum. Am i correct . Professor liu . Yes, yeah. That was the amazing piece of this was that when i picked up the book and saw mott street as the title i had a feeling i wod be familiar. Much of what you were talking about. But i didnt i didnt realize familiar i would be and the oral history you talk about with your grandfather long chin or chin as we knew him back then it was something that i actually did encounter when i was in museum back then. So yeah, when i started from 1982, about sorry, 1989 till about early 1990s, maybe we were the new york chinatown project. And as you said, we became the chinatown History Museum for a minute, and now its now known the museum of chinese in the americas. Yeah, but thats yeah, thats an incredible intersection of and stories and research which i think thats what a lot of your book is about, is these incredible intersections that until dig into them you dont realize theyre happening and youre having us you know, crisscross across the country as much as staying on mott street in terms of this history. So just to get back to some of the Amazing Things that youre telling us. So which grandfather is it that you knew had a history that went back the transcontinental. So this through my grandpa gene gene wong, who was the amazing in our family who cooked up amazing meals for us and he told me stories about our railroad ancestor the was so important to our family not just because the work that was accomplished helped you know bridge divide between east and west so that you know from coast to coast the country was united physically but within our own family there was so much pride about the fact that my great great grandfather had worked on and labored and the labor was so intense. Right . So many men died. So many chinese men up their lives. Right. To complete this railroad. And you know, my great grandfather survived. And there so much pride in story that he taught his grandson my grandfather, his first words in english, which were the names of the transcontinental railroad. So so so those some of the first family stories that i ever heard and i found them nothing short of inspiring in my research. I did go back to the to where the railroad was completed in promontory, utah. I also went to boise, idaho, where my railroad working ancestor ended up living for almost 30 years in period in time in which the population of idaho was almost 30 chinese is. So, you know, uncovering these stories was was so personally moving for but it also spoke to something larger that was happening in the u. S. At the time that sparked my imagination but also made me realize was that there was a great big gaping hole in terms of the history that i was taught. And if i wasnt taught this history as a young child, i might have really known about it if i was just going about my business being a student. Yes. And one of the things that i think is so powerful in the book is that this is not a straightforward narrative about your family its is just as much about you uncovering that history and the ways in there are surprises along the way some of it very inspiring in terms of your ancestors whoe g to meet and spend time with but some heartbreaking and difficult pieces of history to read about. Do you want to Say Something about that what what was it like to go through these histories where youre reading much about the antichinese movement, whether it was political rallies or violence. Versus, you know, finding moments of your ancestors in the archives and and really celebrating their longevity, their survival. Well, theyre thriving, you know. So i wanted to hear a little bit about that. Sure. So, you know this was not the easiest book to research some of the to back to your question about research, there were times in which i had to i crisscrossed my way across the country to local National Archives offices. There are there are chinese exclusion act files on all of them different members of my family during that period i should also maybe go back and maybe qualify you know the chinese exclusion act laws started in the in 19th century in the 1882 and it lasted for over 60 years and only ended off the books during World War Two, when u. S. Entered World War Two. And we needed china an ally. So as a really long period of time that were talking about. So there were files on all of the members who came in and so i should also that chinese exclusion was the first major federal immigration and restriction that effectively shut the borders for the very first time against any particular it halted our Legal Immigration into this country and blocked a pathway towards our citizenship for over 60 years. It was also important because it set the tone for future immigration restrictions Going Forward so that by 1924 there was a ban on nearly all asians from coming over and restrictions against southern and eastern europeans as well. All right so during this period in time there, are these files on all of my family members. And so i go, you know, from for the last years, i was like going off and trying find individual files on of the members. And some people had across, you know three different in three different cities across the country. So it was a it was a it was a bit of a detective hunt to try to to all of these. But what i really rise very quickly is a lot of the files were up here kind of fiction, right . They were fiction because the immigration restriction were so stringent that, they became a kind of it became for folks in order try to get in to a kind of story about their own identity. Right. Claiming that they were or, you know, somebody elses so and so, son or soandsos brother and so, you know, these files, uncovering them and, then covering my grandfathers file, grandpa, the descendants of the railroad and realizing that it was such a fiction. The only thing was that was was the town in which. He was born it and it led me to realize that in fact you know writers and historians were trained to see the official documents and the official history things that are written down on paper as having a greater importance than the familys stories. But what i soon realized is when it comes to chinese exclusion, its the familys stories that hold the keys to the truth. And the official that are kind of fiction that you have to kind of read against the grain for. And so process of working on this book was, was like just like dealing with three different intersections of dealing with the familys stories, looking at the official documents, the english language newspapers, the period and own, trying to come up with my best, my best guess of what really actually happened, what was the actual truth as my family members knew it. Yeah, thats something that is very, very difficult to do using the kinds of sources youre using especially it sounds like from what i saw the majority the sources are english sources and many of them are that these official state documented sources that youre describing like like immigration records, Border Crossing records certificate, citizens residency certificates, etc. That are that are produced for a purpose, but not necessarily more about surveillance tracking for the state than it is necessarily about telling any kind of truth about a persons life. And so its difficult to use those kinds of sources and newspapers are certainly not much better, right when were dealing with 19th century newspapers. Thats right. Thats right. Quite sensationalist. Yes, yes, yes that reflects the the the discriminatory viewpoints of the day. Right. I will say that for my my chinese language sources, i went back to our villages and i was able to get the genealogy documents. There were genealogies. On three of them that major families that i was researching and so, so i used those what was great about those is that they not just had names sometimes dates, years of, birth and years of death, but sometimes i was lucky and they had narratives that came them. So narratives about different family members, narratives that i later learned inspired my family members who were here. So i was able to write, use that with i did use some chinese sources when i was so. So in 2017, in a1a fulbright to china. And so i took my whole family with me and we lived there and thats where i did the bulk of the research. And so i did use some i went to the national, i went to the the local there in our region and was able to sort of Call Information for that. But youre absolutely right that, the majority of the actual documents themselves for this book really were english language sources, you know, census, you know, i used you know a couple of different history scenes and journalists wrote accounts of things that happened in early chinatown of my period include. Reading your book was a great source for me, so thank you for that i can officially thank you on television for for doing that so thank you and and and yes. So a large part of it was english sources. But the chinese language sources as well. And of course all of the oral histories and the myriad numerous interviews i did with family members, as well as folks who or former residents mott street and former residents of chinatown and so i do want us to talk more about that. As much as i love talking about the research. And i just cant help it as historian in me. But you have you have such amazing family stories and just would love to talk a little bit about those and in particular youre youre really tracing out three. I think its three. Is it you have the chickens you the wongs and that family the ng doesnt theyre really ngs. Yes yes. Yeah yeah. So youve the three families going and i just wanted to have you talk through what was like, you know, unraveling and then trying to put together the narratives of. These three different families and just say a little bit about who the three of three families are, were and are. Sure. So the three families that im dealing are my paternal chin side as well as my maternal side, my maternal grandmothers family, the ang family, my my mothers family, her fathers family, the wang family and what was so interesting about working on this project was that because i am fifth generation chineseamerican, there were four, and my family goes back to the mid19th century. Any any major of things that impact did Chinese Americans from the mid19th to today i was able to write about these historic and historic sociopolitical events that impacted the community through the lens of various family members just because weve been here for so long so i felt like i was really fortunate. Now the downside, of course, is that i had a ton a cast of characters to deal with. Right. And so many people i found completely fascinating. So is the Railroad Worker, the grandson of the Railroad Worker on the wong side, ive got my my angst side. Right. And duk foon right. Who was the first person who came over for . My grandmothers side of the family enters country just two or three years after the chinese exclusion act is in full effect. He flees the west coast during a period of very intense heightened antichinese right lands in new york city you know finds this burgeoning chinatown town this thriving chinatown that really came about not just for because of language and cultural ties. Right but but chinatowns across the country became a place of refuge for Chinese People dealing with the weight and scrutiny of the chinese exclusion act laws. So dec foon does this amazing Civic Engagement where hes working with other Chinese Americans to fight and to to speak out against the chinese exclusion act laws and their continuation. He ends up marrying a white woman and elva who you know, only couple of years after they get married the government and elvis citizenship, because theres a period in time in which the government thought believe that a womans citizenship should change, to reflect that of her husbands so only a couple of years after getting married to our uncle dag and elva, who was born in new jersey, who was the daughter of a civil war veteran, becomes, in the eyes of the law a chinese. Then i had family members who came in during the period in time in which angel island had just been created. Angel island sometimes is called the ellis island of the west coast, but it is in fact a Detention Center. And so my great grandmother. Yes, very different. And so my great grandmother when she arrives, she is heavily pregnant. She has to into this Detention Center that is, you know, shes separated from her husband and the Detention Center, segregated right. So so it broke my heart when i realized that the chief medical examiner of the state was an ardent eugenicist. And he believed that the betterment of the race was best employed. Eugenics was best employed at the border. So my great grandmother had to endure human alienating physical examination while she was in her third trimester. Mm. I love the description you have of the photo that you have of her coming through angel island and its like this is not a happy womans picture. Shes got this sort of murderous glare in her and i couldnt agree more. Yeah, yeah absolutely. I mean, imagine being at sea close to a month in, your third trimester, youre seasick and youre nauseous only to enter a facility that youre not sure when youre going to get of and only Chinese People really to deal with this because of the chinese exclusion act laws and was in a relatively privileged position by being the wife of a merchant who had papers right. Luckily they were not kept in detention and for more than about a week and a half, but still not knowing when youre going to be let go is very. And there were other people whose files i found who were also pregnant, who were there at the time, who spent a lot more on angel island. So, i mean, it was a it was a very difficult time for chinese trying to come into america. Yeah. So how did you end up deciding on the people to focus on as you described and by the way your family tree was very helpful because there were there were moments where i would get little bit lost because theres so many fascinating family members that were following you get completely absorbed in their life story as youre narrating them so beautifully that when we moved to another person, sometimes it takes a moment to, you know, recalibrate and figure out which of the tree and then you can sort of you can definitely see theres so many other people on the tree. You dont focus. So so yeah. How did you go about selecting you and are there any family members if you had the opportunity to write a bigger book, would you put them back . Yeah. So i mean, its a great question because theres this huge of characters, so many people were so fascinating to me. Right. But i knew that the frame of this book was incredibly importt,ight . That the frame of chinese exclusion and the ways in which family members or ends lives are impacted by this discriminatory legislature. And that lasted for so long on the books. Right. I knew that that was that was an important frame. And what i try do was just follow. Who were the characters who were . The family members that i was most in whose storylines did i find most compelling . And then i also this thing where in a certain way you can almost look at it like, yes, were fat, will following these different families, but were looking at these different couples, right . We learn about different individuals before they meet and then what happens when they meet and get married and the ways in which their lives are affected, whether youre chinese or youre a white person who marries into the family. Right. How how or how are their lives . You know how are their lives impact acted by know this general legislation that has so impact on them without all without necessarily maybe them 100 realizing it you ill say that even for myself when i was growing up i had never heard the term chinese exclusion before. I just its more like i felt it right and it was always there, whether it was because my mail came addressed to somebody name, right . That was one clue. Youre speaking of the paper son. Yeah, exactly the paper son. Right, right, right. So my grandfather, despite fact that he was the grandson of somebody who built railroad that benefited the entire country my grandpa father when he came. During World War Two in 1938, had to come over under somebody elses identity. And to me was particularly heartbreaking given how proud was of the work that his grandfather had done and how proud he was of of just the contributions that we have made to the country. Right. Yeah. That absolutely something that i think we get very clearly in the book, the ways in which the lives intersect with these big moments, history. You mentioned i think this is this is your great grandfather now who tried to enlist in every war. Is this right . Yes thats right. But so are these moments where youre youre taking us to remember that that there is a sense of belonging, of obligation to this country, that ancestors had, despite living in a time of exclusion. And, you know, and for us to sit with that is quite profound. I think. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I remember when i was i was looking through my great grandfather exclusion file and and one of the pieces was when he had naturalized. And i realized that he and then i found it with my grandfather and my fathers side, long ten pop, who you mentioned and knew both of them. I dont know if i mentioned it in the book, but both of them actually ended up enlisting, even though they were too old, even though they were heads of households, very Young Children and have to enlist, they did and a couple of years when chinese exclusion went off the books and chinese were then to become naturalized as my great grandfather and my grandfather tried as quickly as possible to naturalize because they felt so much that you know, mean they had lived here for so long and they really felt so much as they were americans and they knew how important it was to because they had lived in this country of so many decades, kids not being able to not being able to vote, being completely disenfranchized so, yeah, you know, uncovering a lot of these pieces to the story for me was both heartbreak thing as well as made me incredibly happy and made me filled with quite a lot of pride when. I realized what they had done. Mm hmm. I was just going to go back to your comment about that. This is as about individuals as it is about the couples themselves and their relationships with one another. And i was going say absolutely. What i think is so interesting, what youve done also is that this is this is a period where oftentimes and it makes sense because demographically we have a lot more men coming through than than women. And theres a lot of emphasis on the the men in terms of their work, their organizing and you cover much this too in your book. But i think what we have not had as as richly developed oftentimes are the lives of the women, the few women who could come, and certainly the merchant wives in this case and and you just do such an amazing job. The lives of your great grandmother in terms of really giving us a sense of who they were as people. They were different in terms of class background where they were in china but but theyre become but theres such real characters and and we really get a sense of their internal motivations, their hopes, their and then i think the surprising relationship that sort of builds right. Not to give too much away, but i but i think you just do that so beautifully. And i wanted to hear a little bit more about, you know, how how you went trying to do that when the history that we have been able to write have often not been able to do as much with womens voices simply because we dont have as many sources about their lives. Right. Right. Absolutely and and so its its you know, its so difficult because, you know, even if the were literate like so one of my great grandmothers was literate she was a nurse trained by the London Missionary Society in hong kong. But even she didnt leave documents, at least not any that were saved. Right. So yeah, i think the stories of the women are so important, but they, you know, oftentimes in terms of written documents, we dont have. So what i needed to turn to because i knew that the lives of women were so important, what i needed to turn to were oral stories that my family members had told me i needed to turn to. I was really lucky right again, going back to the work that local historians at Small Community based organizations and institute were able to do and to save those documents. I was lucky that so many of my family members either wrote use or like like wrote down essays and about what life was like them. My grandfather on my chin side pop was incredibly close to his mother and so talked about her in, his oral history. He wrote he left. He was working on a book himself, as well as an oral history. And he was working on a family story. And he wanted to he was working he was taking notes about on a story about his relationship with his own father. And so so he and his brothers. At least two of his brothers, one of whom was still alive by time i reunited with my family and i was able to interview one summer out on the jersey straw he was in his 90 is already i able to use these and and in conjunction with the oral stories that my family members had told me to breathe life into the womens stories. It was also really interesting when you know because because the building is so incredibly important the story so when my family members all to new in the turn the century i remember my grandmother telling me that when they moved into this one building that was at heart of the community on mott street and this building was considered a luxury building because it had indoor plumbing. Every single unit and all of the merchant families rushed to move into this building and. The thing that amazed was when i learned that, in fact, the two sides of my family that i never seen before, even in the same room, because the estrangement between my families was so vast, i was amazed when i found out that, in fact my family members generations before had been upstairs, downstairs neighbors from each other in this on mott street. How old were you when you realized that and in that yeah that well that was quite the revelation in the book when you share that with us. I was an adult when i when i discovered because i was an adult, i was in my twenties when i met my father for the first time and i should say throughout my childhood was always asking questions. I was always like that nosy person or that nosy child in the family that was asking like myriad questions about who we were and where we came from and fact that never stopped and so is is maybe an anonymous stake that i was a journalist a number of years. I teach journalism, you know, narrative journalism and and and so, you know, when i met my father for the first time when i was in my twenties, he was the one who pointed out the buildings to me and and told me that he was born. And then i remember i was talking to interviewing my my maternal grandmother here and i found out that, in fact, she had been born right upstairs. And so, so, so so that, you know, its its its its one thing to have to be interested in and to have a frame about, you know, these, these larger historical forces at work. But but to have to have a setting, right. Thats so specific where all of your characters have lived or visited at some point in know in their young lives or maybe continue to live there for, you know, over years. Right. Is nothing short of so theres a way that the building my family lived in on mott street, i really feel like felt like it was such a gift and it was a place of refuge for, my family. But it was such a gift for me to realize how important this building was to our family. I kind of feel like the buildings dna is in my bones. If yeah, i mean, its like the the big contradiction, right . On the one hand, it is this amazing building in terms the families and the lives that started there. And then proceeded to go elsewhere grow, thrive. But it was clearly a space that was created because of exclusion, because of the the the inability for many chinese to find lodging residence in other parts of the city. And what was interesting to me also is that looking at the book, i was reminded that everyone referretot as the new building and they still did in the in the nineties when i was still working, which is so funny because. When you look at the building, it does not look like a new building, right . But all the old timers would call it the new building somehow. Yes, yes. Yeah. And building was built in 1915. So . So that time, you know, it was like 80 somewhat years later, theyre still calling the new building. Some things never change. Right . Right but that building, in terms of its location, it like the prime stage for everything. And chinatown has an amazing point as you describe of being able to see so much and then think your one of is it the chen family that the store across the street. Yes that also yes there was a that was one of the things thats really wonderful about the book is that you really get a sense of the daily lives of of the chinese in the in the period youre talking about whether its like the work life certainly the leisure life you definitely describe some of those things which i was to ask you about, like did you did you have any moments where you felt like, oh, i dont know should i talk about gambling or opium, things that, you know, have been these stereotypes of chinatown and how to handle that, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I really i paused because thought i about the opium references and involvement certain family members had but it is important to contextualize is it that when they were doing so when they originally importing certain narcotic drugs as my father you know as my father told me they werent it wasnt actually illegal back then it ended up becoming illegal all a little bit later on so and the other thing is you know i really i paused for a great while to in terms of talking about you know, the ways which my family had to circumnavigate the exclusion laws. Right the ways in which they entered the country. And i really thought about you know, how is someone else outside of the write readers out on the side the community. What are they going to think about this right. This reinforces stereotypes of Chinese People like being suspicious and and and dont dont want to talk about things. And this that and what i realized what was so important was actually something that chen, my grandfather, said to to a historian and. And and what he said was, if they didnt make the this way, people wouldnt have had to lie. But because they made the laws, this way, people had to lie order to get in. So i thought, okay, you know, hes contextualized it for me and, you know, my, my, one of my great hopes in writing this book really is that folks understood and whats in very personal and visceral way the impact of really restrictive discriminatory legislation and how that impacts families, children write mothers and fathers and has has impact right even on us today. So i think its incredible important for us to to consider that and and it was it was actually one of the great joys of the book knowing that, you know, it would be through my family members that i could tell a personal story about, immigration, so that people can really what the impact discriminatory legislation was on a family. Yeah i think the story as it unfolds over generations really shows that you one could get out of the 1940s and as you say the repeal happens in 1943 but its not as though a magic wand is waved and it all that history goes away still continues to the lives of certainly that generation thats trying to figure well what does it mean to go from to not excluded . And yet, for some citizenship doesnt is not even not is difficult because still goes back to having to prove ones entry into the country being lawful other of documents so its not a magic cure at all and then it continues to shape the everyday of so many that you describe im just curious in terms of as you said its going back to the family estrangement in your efforts to really uncover your familys history and then know more about your father as you were doing the research and as it was becoming clear that were writing a book, what was the reaction of everybody around you about what you were doing so that would depend upon who i was talking to. Right. Okay. So there are there were some people who are like, do not air the dirt, the dirty laundry, right. Fair enough. Right there are some people who even wont willingly talk to me. And and thats a right i accept that its not easy having writer in the family but there are other people who are totally fascinate by this. And when i would talk to folks like my father who was really reticence about talking a lot of the Family History but who eventually ended talking to me about it. What i had to remind people that was that it wasnt just about us right . As individuals and any particular in the family that this is a larger story that touches upon a larger legacy of exclusion and how it impacted a large segment the Us Population during that period so so that i think that i think helped a bit but its never easy you know writing a family memoir its its its s kind hard for everybody around so im you know, i completely understood you know, if some folks were more reticent others. Have you have you had family members read the book and give you feedback on what theyre thinking it you know what in with other books my book eating wildly which was a food memoir that came out in 2014 with that book i did offer different certain family members the chance to read it with this book, i did not. Most of the people that im writing about have long since passed away. So i dont feel like anybodys feelings are going to get hurt. And certainly nobodys legal status is going to be impacted by this. So no. So the answer to that, professor lou, is no. I have not offered other family members. The opportunity to read those when the reader reads it. This is the same time that the family will read it. So this will be interesting for you to to report back on it at some point. Yes. Yes. Yeah, i guess ask me after week right. Im curious, as you said, that some family members more and more available to you in terms of talking and having wonderful stories, at least trying to to put the pieces together for you. Im curious about, elvis family, were you able to be able to be in contact with them . Who had she been remembered . Her descendants. I mean, she not have children herself. Thats right so i was really curious about that. Yes so that was major moment, a major coup in the research. And elvis, youll remember, was white woman who married into the family whose citizenship was revoked a couple of years and she was transformed a chinese on paper. I was searching for her family for the longest time. I, i found some i like her references to them off of family databases. So i put out emails. You know they went into some files all the nobody ever saw. Right and embarrassed to say that an aunt mine was. Well, i had asked an aunt of mine if she could help because she had family members in a particular of queens that i knew that an elvis family was living in right, that that was the person to whom the emails would just go into a bucket that nobody saw. This aunt said to, me . Well, have you tried . Just googling it . And so she did a Google Search and she got a phone number like, believe it, i was so embarrassed right here i am former, you know, professor of journalism. This is the first thing my undergrad hbs would do. I did not do. Right. And there we didntk th google. I said, not so i was trying to be like a model anyway. But but so we found it through that channel. All that extended family member. I found the other person in an elvis family who is the genealogist, and i met so so these were extend family members through elvis brother and they were able to tell me and absolutely the family had stories and remembered and alive and part of it was because she had married the chinese person right it was a really big deal for the family in 1903 so so yes so got extremely lucky and that helped up a whole section of the book about a major character. And so its grateful to everybody who helped with that. Yeah, thats wonderful. And so is your sense then your uncle was a part of an elvis family, extended family as as much as she was a part of your family. My sense it is that. He was a part her elvis family. But only with limits. I know for certain they they did go to family events, but he was still it was still hard for them. It was difficult in those days, you know, interracial marriages were quite rare. It was illegal in many states out west and the midwest. Right. Luckily my family for and and my uncle, it was not illegal in new york or connecticut where they got married, but i feel like and elvis was really warmly embraced in. Our family more so than my uncle was embraced by her, as right. Yeah it its still speaks to nonetheless, i think reading the book, the possibilities of mobility in terms of that interaction back and forth and and definitely to continue to push against the idea of, of chinese being just simply in these enclaves, you know, and no one was interested in finding connections or pushing forth and and we havent even gotten into the Chinese Equal Rights League, which was a really important part of chineseamerican history, asianamerican history. And maybe thats a od place for us to end, i think is too is your you know your uncovering of this amazing history that youre great grandfather, great uncles were all in in terms of really trying to push for and lobby for rights for chineseamericans during the height of exclusion. Yeah. So i remember when i first learned about it, there was. There there was a writer. Okay, so this goes back a little bit. There was a writer for ford newspaper, the jewish newspaper here who contacted me because i was writing about i had written about uncle jack, right in the online asianamerican womens magazine. It was it was a personal essay about the family. And he was like. Did you realize that your family members had done such incredible Civic Engagement in chinatown in the period in time in which, you know, it was it was several decades into chinese exclusion and they werent able to vote. So they were completely disempowered chinese. Right. In terms of the political process, did you realize that was going on . And i know i did not. So i had though heard of the Chinese Equal Rights League and wang chen fu, who was the big proponent who had created the Chinese Equal Rights League and and so so this was a league of of merchants across the country who were lobbying saying to stop continuation of chinese exclusion on the books and they got together in new york, in pennsylvania, in philadelphia, even in to to gather documents, gather signatures speaking out against the continuous motion of exclusion. In 1892. I will let you read the book in order to find out what happened. But i was incredibly moved. The work that they had done. And i later, you know, found more and read more books where actually that writer from the forge newspaper, scott seligman, ended writing an entire book about wang chin fu, who was the person who helped create, you know, the chinese exclusion at the Chinese Equal Rights League. So so yes. So so there was all of that. Yeah. I think this a great place to end. Just sort of remind all of us just how, how much the in this period of exclusion explored so many were politically engaged and vocal and pushed back against exclusion very very powerfully done. Your book, mott street professor chen i to thank you for your time and thank you for the book. This was really a pleasure to read, engage with and i wish you of luck with actually, you know what . Im going to ill ask you the first question. Okay and ill ask you a question back there. Go. Incidentally, if you if you dont read and then theyll sort