Breakfast scheduled here in the morning and will be out at about 10 00. I came in last night. Im traveling the country, doing a lot of lyrical offense. Ive been in california to help pete wilson kick off his campaign for governor and in wisconsin with tommy thompson. I will be in florida doing the kind of work i could not do while i was in the Defense Department because of the tradition that the defense secretary does not get involved in partisan politics. Ive also been back home in jackson hole and that is my base. Somebody has to live there. Involved on some corporate boards, the director of morgan stanley, im on the board of us west, procter gamble, union pacific. Catching up with my fishing a little bit. Where are you and your thought process about running for president . Mr. Cheney i have not made a decision yet. I expect to by the end of the year. The alliance were American Leadership is the traditional way to go to comply with the federal election statute. I will make a final decision after the cycle. I used to think of it as a political calculation and sit down to look at the landscape and the more i think about it, the more it becomes a personal decision rather than a political decision because of the extent to the way we are frontloading the primary process. All states are moving their primaries up earlier and earlier so that 30 states have selected theres by the end of march. The battle will probably be over by the end of march, so if you back that up, you got to spend virtually fulltime as a candidate, raising money, building your organization and that dictates the election. So you end up making it on a personal consideration. Do you want to devote a significant amount of time and effort to the pursuit of the effort . What does it look like when you make a personal decision . What dont you look at . To me, it would be whether theres support around the country for the kind of campaign i would want to run. For someone with my views and philosophy about how the government ought to function. Myther or not i want to put family and myself through the meat grinder a president ial campaign and the loss of personal freedom that goes with committing yourself to that kind of effort. Would you have kids affected by this . Wife is themy chairman of the National Endowment for the humanities and my two daughters. What kind of campaign would you want to run . Well, i am basically somebody who believes in limited government. Conservative, if you are trying to pigeonhole me on spec on the political spectrum, believes in the virtues of the Free Enterprise system and minimize governments interference with the function of the Free Enterprise system. Roleovernment does have a in the society and certain function it has to fill. I believe in an active u. S. Role. From thees that differ philosophy of any other republican running for president . Im not a candidate yet and i dont know who else is going to be a candidate. These, theat one of people that crop up on the list cover the full spectrum of opinions. From pat buchanan, who i would as having adulation tendencies in the Foreign Policy arena and conservative protectionist matters, i would i would agree with him. Massachusetts in terms of the governments role. See as theyou concerns of americans now . Mr. Cheney i have been in about 40 states since i left the pentagon. My last summer, i got a my car myself and trove across the country, partly to reconnect after four years in the and, you get focused to the exclusion of others. I thought it was important to get out and connect. Of that experience with the sense that the country is in pretty gets is in pretty good shape in terms of that portion of it represented by 250 million americans. Once you get away from that private side, you start to talk about politics and government. Especially at the national level. Terms of the substantive issues they are talking about, obviously the economy figures prominently. Is the focus on the economy is faded somewhat. It is not uniformly better, but there are some exceptions. General, people are more confident about the economy than they were a year and a half ago. With respect to other kinds of issues, right now, theres very little focus on Foreign Policy and defense. Its low on the list of priorities. A great concern with crime, violence, a fear of violence in their communities, focused on the big cities, but is more widespread than that. The focus on health care has been generated by the national debate. State of thee Nations Defense now . What is your assessment of our defense conditions . Mr. Rumsfeld im more mr. Cheney im worried about it. If i were to critique the Clinton Administration, it would be the fact, at least a fact in my perception, that they acted as though they had inherited the cold war force of the 1980s. Or haveer recognized taken into account the extent to which we had already changed our military strategy, modified our first our force structure, closed bases and done all of those things we had in the bush years. Why the time they arrived, wed made the decision to close 800 bases and eliminate 400,000 jobs out of the partner of out of defense. We adopted a military strategy and that was already done. President clinton came in and they reached down for another 56 billion below the cuts that have already been made. Its starting to show up in ways that show some evidence of the degradation of the quality and. Eadiness of force if you take new recruits in the ad states army, statement recently by general mike lowe said we had a growing backlog of jet engines that repaired for spare parts. A statement by the secretary in germany saying we are overextending our commitments, especially for we put 420,000 troops into bosnia. Askedrmer chief of staff to chair a special commission with a report to raise questions about our abilities. Quality of of the force. People dont think of it as fragile, but where you have people who are serving the and be persuaded to serve, if you put them through a time of great , whether they can have a future and stay for a full 20 years or have a career in the military, will there be a pay and what happens over time as you lose your best people. Im worried thats what is happening. How do we work things out so that we are not unsettled . Mr. Cheney i think we are unsettled. Theres a desire to try, and it is understandable, to have some and of formula circumstances where you wouldnt somey, other than a spouse general motion other than to come up with a formula president s have to make a decision whether to commit the force. I dont think there is much whether there was a decision to send troops to the gulf. Everybody was supportive of it after the fact. , wema, generally supported acted as part of an national coalition. Somalia, more debatable, a strictly unitarian mission. No real claim that this involves a strategic interest in the united states. Work. Out and we pull maintain some kind of semblance of order, these are questions nobody can answer we were not prepared and i dont think the Clinton Administration is prepared. Propositionugh where i would argue against employing any significant forces. I think its fine for us to be involved and we are reluctant to on a contingent of forces the ground. I think if you do it in a combat it will not work. In fact, we looked at that off that option during the bush years and we found there were questions nobody can answer what is the military objective . The militarys good at some things, not good at others. You go into bosnia and say stop the bloodshed, that is not quite specific enough. How much force do you use and under what circumstance . Would never clear how we disengage. It is a difficult area to operate in. After world war ii, there were 1. 2 million yugoslavs killed but they were killed by yugoslavs. A military mission to go and impose a solution i do not think makes sense. The second possibility is to go in as peacekeepers. I have had reservations about that where u. S. Forces are concerned. American troops can be looked upon the way we look upon peacekeepers of other nations. If you send norwegians or nigerians that go in under you and osmosis, say go in and take casualties, the secretary general can pull them out and it does not have worldwide consequences. Get into trouble, you got two options you withdraw, but it does have worldwide ramifications. It is not in my mind automatically a good idea that we put u. S. Troops in there as peacekeepers. Weve got a little over 100,000 troops in europe. I would rather see us provide if there is a settlement survived the kinds of things we have that are unique, our air and naval assets, our command and control systems and let the europeans provide the bulk of the ground forces. A sense of your views on trade. A freeney basically trader. I believe in open markets. I believe nafta was a positive element. I dont like the current policy the administration is pursuing of threatening to withdraw all favored nation status from china. What about japan . Japan is one of our most important trading partners. Our relationship with the japanese is absolutely crucial. Its got a lot of dimensions to it besides trade. Its important to remember how close that security relationship is, that peace and stability depends on maintaining the security relationship. Oursecurity policy, battle groupnd the and presence of u. S. Forces in andn is a linchpin reassuring to the japanese and assuring to everyone else to have a continuing presence in japan. When you look at the relationship, its not just about motorolas access to the japanese market. It is important to river broader relationships. Would you also attempt to take some kind of response to their rather blatant throwing wend folksprisons are visiting . Extent, we to some set ourselves up for that. Weve been hammering them on the human rights issue for month and threat running to withdraw most favored nation status. Theres no question the current government in china is sensitive asut Human Rights Concerns we would like to have them be. It is also true they have come hell of a long way and last 20 years. I can remember being in china with president for. You get up in the morning and open your window and there are thousands of chinese marching and lockstep all wearing their uniforms. At was still alive and totalitarian communist state, now you go to china and it has in very significant ways and adopted major market reforms and Phenomenal Growth going on, improvement in living Third Largest economy, in a few years, maybe the second largest economy. Major things going on and here we are, the leading economic power in the world about to show off that relationship. We ought to reiterate our concern about human rights. I dont think it makes sense for us to go in and withdraw mostfavorednation status which would damage those we can afford to support. The Strongest Force for political change and best hope longterm is the kind of economic change that is underway. Access to invest in china and all the other things that are part of that relationship. I think it is shortsighted and i come back to the notion again that we set ourselves up for this most recent dustup. Domestically, what do you think should be the top two or three priorities . If i look at the basic underlying, overall responsibility of government domestically, you have to focus first on the economy. That drives everything else. Not that the economy is in terrible shape. Everything else you want to do domestically one way or another relates back to how well the economy is performing. , very believe, as i do much in the value of the Free Enterprise system and markets and our private economy, then it interferernment can inappropriately in about three different ways to excessive regulation and read take or bringing huge budget deficits to do value the currency and undermine the value of the currency and push consumption down to future generations. If you get it right and are able Economic Policy in such a way you can provide for sustained longterm growth and create the maximum number of the folks whofor are unemployed, revenues to finance what we do agree upon and the best prospects of managing problems like the deficit and so forth. President , how would you see your role visavis the economy . The increase on the top tax rate was a mistake. Chapter usfor corporations and Small Businesses is going the wrong direction. Got to do more than create savings and investment. To find other ways of using the tax system and finding ways to invest. The oneroposals like that would have taken 90 billion out of spending. Proposal thatd was rejected. Waynumber i saw the other is the accumulation or the count from the federal register, a crude indicator of how we are , the thirdgulation highest in history. What would you do about the problems facing Rural America . Mr. Cheney would you like to be e specific question mark would you like to be more specific . What do you think they are . There are places in wyoming with a major problem is Adequate Health care, finding a position to find finding a physician to find the services most of us take for granted. There are other communities undergoing the kinds of pressures and problems with continuing changes in the marketplace in terms of how our economy functions and times that are dying on the vine and the problems that go with agriculture. I think it varies from one side of the country to the next. Easing foreign commodity spending should be shifted into other priorities . I start with the that there are problems that develop in our society. A business start or Business People in agriculture, like my family was in agriculture who ultimately end up leaving and having to move to the city or find another line of work because theres not a lot of opportunity for them to continue to do that. A lot of those changes are the normal, natural functioning of the economy. To try to make it easier for those who make the transition. The kinds of things we have done , trying to preserve the family farm forever, that has clearly been an objective. Enormousnjoyed productivity and it has been good. Folks makehelp those the adjustment that the government should not appear should not interfere in the marketplace. Is it social policy to keep people on the far more as a function of some light to regulaten order the supply of crops in america . We have signed the special motion of agriculture and what it does for production and social values that are inculcated. In hawaii, it tends to be agriculture, grazing on the agriculture ist a significant part of the culture as it is in iowa. If wek we pursue those want to preserve an element of that as part of our society. [indiscernible] not always, i suppose, though i have trouble thinking of a better approach to it. Its a source of great frustration. My views generally coincide with those of the farm bureau in terms of how i voted as a congressman. You spoke of yourself as leaning toward the conservative end of the spectrum, we have not talked about social issues very much. Is that also a place where you would place yourself there . You used the term family values. Give us a sense of where you stand on it. Do i use the phrase family values . Howts a good way to know comfortable he feeble are with certain social issues. Mr. Cheney i think values are an important part of the way we live. I am not one of those who thinks ive necessarily got all the answers in terms of how people live their lives. Im a great believer in that people have to make those decisions for themselves. I would not want a society that is intolerant about the choices people make for themselves. What is your view on abortion rights . Mr. Cheney i am prolife. The issue that came before us repeatedly in congress was whether i would use barrel funds consistently voted against using federal funds to finance abortion. Im not eager to see that issue divide my party the way it has in the past. In 80, 84,to do that 88 and in 92 we did not do as good a job as we should have. The party incorporates both. What about Health Care Reform . Mr. Cheney i would support targeted reforms. I do not think the system is as rogan as resident and mrs. Clinton did. I think the Health Care System provides very high quality care for the vast majority of americans and theres ample evidence that its the best Health Care System in the world. Is a modest set of targeted reforms rather than the radical restructuring they propose. I think most people agree it is a quality system but it is an expensive system. Are we paying too much . What is our basis of saying it is expensive . What we are spending in terms of our gdp. Mr. Cheney the argument i hear japanesend more than a. Health care. As a percentage of gdp. Thats true. We also spend more on housing and higher education. Government controls and government bureaucracy to do so. Im not sure why we decided health care ought to be judged based on some standard call. Bases isure what the for saying it is too much or too little. Is one say health care of the single most important things we spend money on it if we have to spend more to ensure the good health of our families, we should do it. In terms of looking at cost, the likelihood of improving it or reducing the rate of increase in health care is better if we look at some of the incentives and provide incentives for people to make better choices. I like the kinds of things they pay backat and reimburse their workers if they dont use of their full allotment of health care. We build incentives in to the system for people to make rational choices, but the idea the administration has got, that you would go down to a 0. 0 in thee above inflation amount of health care is not realistic. We get enormous benefits its one thing to spend more money if you are not getting health care. The fact is we are Getting Better health care all the time. Look at the incidence of death we have cut incidence of death by 38 . Have incidence of death by it cannot percent. Weve added 30 years to the average Life Expectancy this century. That affectsresult the lives of all americans because our Health Care System is so much better than it was 80 or 90 years ago. You spend money on new products and pharmaceutical products, but you also have the effect of delivering Quality Health care much more efficiently. You use a laser to take care of kidney stones sonic surgery to take care of kidney stones instead of opening people up. Deal with medical problems much more efficiently than the way we dealt with them in the past. There have been enormous increases in productivity. People are living so much longer and its going to cost more money to take care of us. Anythingy do you have you would rather spend it on . Children. Generational equity issues. Mr. Cheney i dont think theres a shortage of immunization opportunities for children. I dont think there is a lack of commitment of resources. It is not as though we are saying we are going to keep people on kidney dialysis. A lot of parents dont take their kids to get diphtheria shots. You mentioned heart disease. You have had a problem with that. What do you say to potential republicans who might be worried about your own health, your own problem, do you have a problem . If you run for president , would you give us access to your records to see exactly what problem you have . Mr. Cheney over the years, i have had coronary artery disease, i had bypass surgery six years ago before i went to the pentagon. Doctors nd the unless the doctors give me a clean bill of health, i wont run for president. Lifes too short and i have too many streams left to fish to put at risk my physical wellbeing to run for president. Unless the doctors give me a clean bill of health, i wont run. Is that any of our business . Mr. Cheney i think it is. If i were to be a candidate for president , i would have to address that issue to the press and public to their satisfaction and that would mean making a physician available. I have some strong dealings about the Health Care System. I am here today, alive and because ofund partly the development of things like bypass surgery and cholesterollowering and the miracles that were not there 20 years ago. Why was george bush a one term president . I think if there is a way to summarize, it would be that we did not do a good job explaining why we want four more years. We reached the point after 12 years of the reagan and Bush Administration that we were unable to articulate effectively why the country should have over billgeorge bush clinton or ross perot. Can you give us a sense of what you will look to Republican Leaders in iowa to tell you . What kind of feedback are you looking for here and elsewhere as you try to determine whether to run . In terms of my own personal situation . This business is partly an intellectual exercise where you think about and calculate various possible odds and developments. But it is more an intuitive sort of feel. I describe it as i will know it when i see it. Its a culmination of months of travel, talking to all kinds of people in all different kinds of settings and backgrounds and experience. It is not as though there is a list of 14 questions to talk about. I will make a judgment after i and traveled the country talk to a lot of political figures. Its something im prepared to because in my judgment im the best one to do it. One of the most respected political leaders in this state is jim leach. One of the interesting conversations going on now is whether or not he is behaving differently because of the leadership role he has taken. He has certainly developed a reputation for being a thoughtful, measured person, relatively nonpartisan and suddenly he is a real leader in a situation that has grabbed the national imagination. Do you have any thoughts about it . Mr. Cheney ive known jim long before either of us went to congress. We worked together in 1970 when he was still a Foreign Services officer. Then we served together in house for 10 years. I think hes done an outstanding job. I think hes one of the most thoughtful, deliberative members of the house of representatives and one of the least partisan. As beingreputation more he is the ranking republican on the banking committee. He has reasons why hes heavily involved in the whitewater thing. Hes got strong feelings about it and he has pursued it aggressively but not entirely appropriately. I found him to be very measured in his statements. Having been through the watergate years and been involved with the Ford Administration as we took over for president nixon in 1974, and the ranking republican in the house, watch these kinds of things unfold. Im has been very responsible do you think public hearings in congress should wait . Cheney thats a manageable problem. I dont think youre going to put to rest the allegations and speculation until there are hearings. If push came to shove, which you theres aose strong case to be made that policy is precedence. Their interests are to a large part different. What you think is at the bottom of whitewater . Dick cheney a lot of voters think it is much to do about nothing. What do you think is at the bottom of that pit . Dick cheney i dont know. I have trouble understanding how they got into as much trouble as they did. Speculate that this came up during the course of the campaign in 1992. It may be that representations were made during the campaign that were not accurate. They have been reluctant to release the records and have the point made that they werent honest about that. Did they lose 69,000 or not . Thats never been resolved. The announcement today, theres another partner in the rose law that hist know resignation relates to whitewater, but that immediately raises questions if theres another area that needs to be looked at. I dont know why they responded the way they have wearied i been somewhat surprised by it. Have. I have been somewhat surprised by it. Pretty hard days on the campaign trail in 1992. So what . Itk cheney theres more to here. There are serious questions being asked about whether or not the conduct in connection with white water was legitimate and above board and whether there were decisions made and actions taken that were inappropriate. A ghost of the question of whether there were funds diverted from whitewater, madison savings and loan, whether or not there were funds funneled to president clintons there werehether conflict of interest issues raised by serious by groups involved here. Not those are not an important questions. It is legitimate for people to want to answer those questions. Bill safire and a few others have called into the actions that mr. Fisk has taken. Dick cheney i know mr. Fisk. Im not an attorney. I dont have a reason to believe hes there doing anything appropriate. That does not in the inquiry. In questions of criminal behavior, were any laws broken by the regulators moving back in , and so forth separate from that, there is a question of other issues, policy questions. After you do all this traveling and thinking and look back on what you can bring to the presidency, i would think one of the final questions in your mind would be why should i ask people to elect me president , what is it that i alone can particularly provide . Its a remarkable act of assertion to run for the presidency. What will you answer to yourself . Dick cheney when ive got the answer, ill be quite happy if you see me back here in january, you will know i came up with an answer. Usually by the time you come here you have reached that answer. Dick cheney no. Honestly have not made that decision. President s. Three its not all its cracked up to be. What would you like about it, what would you not like . Im cheney till im ready, reluctant obviously you feel the nation is governor of all gover nable. Dick cheney when ive made the decision to run for president , of the happy to get into those questions i will be happy to get into those questions. Im interested in your having ked for three president s in your old days, you were a congressional fellow. In, you came in and spoke to our group about governance, congressional reform. Put yourself in that Political Science role and give us an idea of whether the presidency is an institution that works for the American People. Atk cheney it has worked times. I have been privileged to serve at times and with president s who i thought it an outstanding job. It was a masterful performance. Jerry ford upon jerry fords performance. Taking over the country at an extraordinarily difficult time. The trust and confidence in the American People. A tremendous piece of work that he deserves credit for. Weve had president s do a phenomenal job. Its also an extraordinarily difficult job. We hammer them during the course of the campaign. We treat them like royalty through the election and then we. Tart hammering them again you talked about bill clinton being a crafty politician. What kind of politician are you . I would want to think about that great somebody else ought to make that judgment. I have a gulf war question. One of the comments i hear a lot in talking to voters is, why didnt you finish off Saddam Hussein when you had him . Dick cheney it comes up frequently. The basic answer its a complicated answer. To finish off Saddam Hussein running intovolved the ground. You have to go to baghdad. To do that would have involved a significant expansion of the war aims. The question the president put to us was, have we achieved our objectives . Our objectives were twofold. Liberatee was to kuwait. Number two was to destroy saddams offensive capabilities. By the fourth morning of the war, we had done that. We had taken down the air force, shut down his power grid in his command and control system. The answer was in the affirmative from all of us. We could have gone into baghdad. Once you turn 101st Aerosol Division around, you had them north to baghdad, head them north to baghdad, you get to baghdad, youre all alone. One of the unique features we did was to have arab nations fighting alongside other nations. All those other forces with us, none of them ever signed up to the notion of the u. S. Occupation of iraq or going all the way to baghdad. Might have had some british representation. Not an easy task, even in panama countryside,d the it still took us a couple of. Eeks to get to noriega then what the do . Then you got yourself a country. You have to set up some kind of government. Once you start to tamper with the government inside iraq, you have to worry about the territorial integrity of iraq. Youve got the iranians to the east who just fought and eightyear war with iraq. Theyre good allies of ours, the turks. Anytime iraq starts to come you can end up threatening the territorial integrity a couple things entered into the question. Once you go to baghdad, your military operations are different from where they were. Use your artillery and your air and so forth to maximum advantage. You dont have the capacity to use military assets the way we did in the desert. Everybody was impressed with how war was in terms of american casualties, 146 americans killed in action. I think we got it right. How much did the question on civilian casualties enter in over there . Dick cheney inside iraq itself inside or out. Dick cheney casualties had more to do with how we conducted the war. It wouldve gotten to be a big problem in bag dad. One of the things we did well was to conduct war in a way that minimized how many . Dick cheney we dont know how many iraqi civilians were killed. They might have numbers on that, but we dont. Aside from the one shoulder that was bombed in baghdad where there was significant loss of life, a couple of instances where bombs fell short, there was very little civilian loss of life in iraq because of the way we chose to operate. How to conclusively do you feel like you constrained Saddam Hussein . Dick cheney we had an and normas impact on him. An enormous impact on him. s forces were conclusively reduced . Dick cheney the choice is where he would have and if we did not do anything. If we had not done anything, he would still have kuwait. By now he might have the Eastern Province of saudi arabia. You had taken the Eastern Province of saudi arabia, he wouldve control directly with iraq, kuwait. You wouldve controlled about 2 3 he wouldve controlled about 2 3 of the worlds oil reserves. That was one outcome that did not happen. To liberate kuwait and deny him the ability to threaten his neighbors with conventional military forces, i dont see him as a significant military trip today. Get back intoo the International Oil markets, he cantions are lifted generate enough revenues to rebuild a very large military force, similar to what he had in 1990. But he clearly doesnt have that capacity. Do we not attempt to keep civilian casualty figures at the pentagon . [inaudible] you dont try and do that . Dick cheney i dont think we would read you get in enough trouble simply trying to track your own people, to deal with the scuds hes firing. Is not something we try to do afterwards . Dick cheney we dont know what theyre military is worth. We dont know how many of their troops deserted before the final onslaught of the ground war, how many of them were killed in the air. We just dont know. And especially unless they produce some numbers. They have produced big numbers. I would think it would be in our Defense Departments interest dick cheney the practical question, how do you do that . Who do you go to . Who is the source of information . It was always our assumption that he would overstate them for his own political purposes. I think there had been a lot more iraqi civilian casualties, he would have done everything he could to dramatize and publicize. Television brought the vietnam war into the living room, dont you think the American People kind of assume that the only war we are going to fight is one like the gulf war, there is 150 people, you cant conceive of some a of going into something bigger, deadlier, like bosnia . Dick cheney theres always a danger that you assume the last war is what they will all look like in the future. The gulf war was unique. World war ii was unique. Its always going to be difficult, and should be, in a democracy. Use military force. We dont compel anybody to serve in the military. 68 casualties one day in sarajevo, nato and the u. S. Decide to do something. It has an effect, in terms of forcing the agenda. Democratically elected leaders will be required to respond to Public Opinion, and Public Opinion is shaped by what people. Ee in the press if youre a president , you have to remember what your priorities are. [indiscernible] what ive said is that the two irepublicans running will support the nominee of my party. With that, any other questions . Dick cheney thank you very much. Good questions. What is lynn doing . Dick cheney shes writing a book about what is going on on campus these days and how it affects society. Simon schuster is going to publish it. It is a subject near and dear to her heart. With a 2016 president ial contest in full swing, American History tv will look active past elections to bring you archival coverage of candidates on the campaign trail. Join us for road to the white house rewind, every sunday at 10 00 a. M. Eastern. On october 26, the World Health OrganizationsInternational Agency for research on cancer announced the results of a study on the possible link between processed meat, red meat, and cancer. The study classified processed meat as quote carcinogenic to humans, and people should quote limit their intake of meat. Next on American History tvs reel america, a look at Meat Processing 50 years ago with a promotional film made by hormel. A dairy farmer and his sons tore a hormel plant and see how spam, bacon, nadand hot dogs are made. The original plan of four mel began on this site in 1981. Today it is one of the nine largest slaughtering operations. A display of popular or mill, more than 750 different items are produced here. Spam, cure 81 ham, hormel chili, beef stwe, range brand bacon, and dry sausage. From balconies you can look across entro