And restore it and keep it seamless. Okay. Well thank you. I only have half a minute remaining. Miss gilligan i think i will just submit a question on the record for you about the Contract Tower Program and stress that the senate and house continue to strongly support the faa Contract Tower Program on a bipartisan basis and request you to comment on the record about any recommendations faa may have for reauthorization bill to ensure that this program is enhanced and protected. Thank you. Thank you, senator. I think certainly after our hearing last week, its important. I look forward to the answer to senator wickers question. Thank you. And now id like to call on senator klobuchar. Thank you very much, madam chair. A lot of interest in the hearing p. M. Im pre hearing. Im pretending those are lines of people trying to get in you just heard. I want to welcome members of the families. Weve worked with you especially on the bill on pilot fatigue and captain sullenberger, i thought i would start with that. I want to thank you for your continued intention to improving the fatigue standards, and can you share your perspective on why we should not continue to have two levels of safety regulations for passenger and cargo planes . Thank you senator. Id be glad to address that. Just as much as the 2010 Airline Safety bill was rega regulatory success, the cargo carve out the exclusion of cargo pilots is as much a regulatory failure and its one thats hard to understand. Its one thats clearly the result of economic pressures and not a safety argument. We have learned in the last decades much about the science of fatigue. We know how predictable it is, as predictable as the sunrise and the sunset obviously, and it results in predictable negative effects on human awareness attention, shortterm memory performance, and judgment. Its ironic in the extreme that the pilots who are doing the flying that require the most protection from fatigue are the ones who are specifically excluded from the rule. Every night, all night and much of the day, cargo pilots share the same air space the same airports with commercial passenger flights. They fly all over the whole country, over each of our houses at 2 00 a. M. 3 00 a. M. , 4 00 a. M. 5 00 a. M. Looking for the airport. We owe it to every american to right this wrong. Thank you so much captain and miss gilligan is there any thought with the faa with changing this. I know that basically that wasnt the case when you looked at this, but is there any case of reconsidering this after the decision was made to exempt cargo pilots before . Senator we actually think there are other way that is they are expecting the Cargo Carriers to address the risk thats posed by fatigue. The bill itself required that all carriers including Cargo Carriers have a fatigue Risk Management plan that required that the carrier look specifically at their schedules and using the current science that we have for fatigue determine if any elements of their schedule provided the possibility that the pilots would be fatigued, and they are required through that plan to address that risk. In addition, we now have the requirement for Safety Management systems which is also applicable to the Cargo Carriers. That broader system will require that they identify whatever risks they have, in this case the risk of fatigue. Because Cargo Operations are very different from passenger operations and the scheduling is very different, we believe that the Safety ManagementSystems Approach will actually assure a better level of safety for the Cargo Carriers. They will analyze their schedules. If any of those fall into the red, they will have to address that risk. Thank you. And, again, well continue to pursue this with you. Mr. Baker, i know you touch on this in your opening statement, and i just wanted to let you know you know senator mckowski and i did the bill on the Small Airline revitalization act and im as frustrated as you are that we dont have the faa meeting the timeline to get the rules out. We think theres safety benefits so i want you to know were continuing to pursue that. I just actually had one last question that i just sort of came up with after being on a flight recently next to someone who was a little bigger than me, and i know that theres been some issues with some of the planes having smaller spaces. I guess id ask you, miss Gill Gilligan gilligan, about this and we have rules for pets and we have no rules for space for humans and over the past decade seat pitch has decreased from 34 to 28 inches, as you know. When the faa is testing the safety of new aircraft, is the faa also testing for a variety of seat sizes particularly if it impacts the ability to evacuate an aircraft and is the faa or the department of transportation taking any action to examine any potential risks from limited seat sizes on commercial aircraft . We have done research on both seat size and seat pitch. We do it based around whats called cueing queueing theory. We set the standards to assure the most even flow of passengers out of the aircraft in the event of an emergency. Any of the aircraft that are approved do meet those standards. And so has there been any renewed look at this given that it appears theres some smaller seat sizes that were starting to see lately . Im not aware that the seat sizes are smaller. Whatever is installed does meet the standards that are required to provide the appropriate level of safety for emergency evacuation and all of those and including i guess they have changed in the last decade from 34 to 28 inches. But each new design must be tested to assure that emergency evacuation can be accomplished. All right. Thank you. Senator moran. Chairwoman thank you very much. Miss gilligan, the faas 2004 sport pilot rule allows private pilots to fly small aircraft without a thirdclass medical certificate under certain safety restrictions. The issue i want to explore is altitude. Is there a clearly defined safety benefit for one altitude over another . I think the theory is that pilots maybe can fly lower than the 18,000 feet thats the floor for class a air space. What should we know about safety based upon ability to fly at various altitude levels . Well, senator, i think there are a couple of elements to that, and im sure mr. Baker can expand upon it as well. The one you point out is that the structure within the air space tends to separate aircraft based on the sort of technical a abilityies of the aircraft. Lower air space is not as con conducive to jet operations. Higher altitudes allow them to be more efficient. So there are some elements of the air space design that suggests separation of operations by altitude my question is can we make safety considerations different at lower altitudes because larger commercial aircraft are flies at higher altitudes . Well, of course, all of the commercial aircraft pass through those lower altitudes at least for departure and arrival, but there are some differences that we do apply within those Different Air spaces depending on exactly what the operations are that are in that environment. Is that helpful . Its helpful. I guess what i was trying to find out is what difference does it make whether the threshold is 14,000 feet or 18,000 feet or 10,000 feet on the safety considerations for private pilots . One of the safety considerations is related to 10,000 feet and below because at those altitudes the aircraft does not need to be pressurized and so you dont add the added risk that you would lose pressurization and the pilot would become would lose consciousness. Thats separate from the air space issue that you raised initially. So there are some lmentszelements of the air space design that address safety risks and there are some elements related to altitude that assure the pilot a little more protection from what might be a safety risk. Thank you very much. Mr. Black anything youd like for me to know about this topic . I think to be more clear, i think the idea that you need supplemental oxygen above 12,500 for any length of time and supplemental oxygen can be canals into your nose. Above 18,000 feet youre required to have a pressure mask on. You can still fly up to 27,000 or 30,000 feet with supplemental oxygen but its a different type of mask so i dont see any safety issues as long as youre doing supplemental oxygen as any safety issue. Thank you. Let me turn to let me come back to you mr. Black. Were hearing about Pilot Shortage. What is it that aopa and others, what can pilot schools what are we doing to when i was a kid in high school we had Civil Air Patrol and all of us kids got interested in Civil Air Patrol. I know it still exists, but what is it that can be done for another generation to address some of the issue that is get excited about flying and can address some of the issues about Pilot Shortage and compensation. How do we make this a career path for additional americans . Its a great question, and were testing a couple programs now called the you can fly program which will be 150, 152 cessnas thats what most people learned to fly in. Weve got a number of those in states right now were trying to get people actively involved joining a flying club. But even working with a number of high schools we have a program we call s. T. E. M. A. It gets people involved in education at career decision or if its recreation thats fine as well. We want to get involved with the High School Training programs. And then remind people they can afford to fly with these flying clubs that makes flying very affordable if they just want to do it for recreation. We look at ourselves as a role to try to reenergize general aviation. Your organization or others are interested, wed love wichita, kansas, other places in kansas to be a part of that process. If i can help encourage s. T. E. M. A and encourage people to have an interest in becoming pilots professionally or as a hobby a sport for personal enjoyment, please include me if theres any way i can be of assistance. May i quickly add. My first officer jeff skiles and i for four years immediately after our famous flight were cochair of the eaa Young Eagles Program which is a Worldwide Program to encourage youth to be enthusiastic about flying and in fact, to get them a first flight with a volunteer pilot. To connect the dream with the reality. So thats something were very familiar with and eaa young eagles is a big program that encourages thousands to do just that. Captain, great to know that and youd have the standing, the stature that would excite young people today and i appreciate your interest and involvement in that program. My time is expired. I would only say in concluding, miss black, that the issue of reliability of air service by Regional Companies in my kat of kansas and i assume across the country, its a serious challenge. Its hard to make decisions about flying a regional jet. I have been a champion of essential air Service Since i came to congress. It was a commitment i made to many communities in my state and we go out and fight here in congress for the Financial Support of essential air service, but if we have a regional carrier that fails to provide the reliability, the Reliable Service people are having a difficult time deciding whether to buy a ticket on some scheduled Regional Airlines with the uncertainty of whether or not that flight is actually going to take off, and the explanation is often that theres a Pilot Shortage, but it sure makes it difficult for us to continue to advocate for Regional Service and essential air server without that essential reliability. I think when we restore some certainty to the pipeline and we can get a little bit more stability on the pilot supply, a lot of those issues will self resolve. Frankly, we have one major eas carrier that originally served 64 communities and is now serving 32. Thats just one example of the victims of the Pilot Shortage in those communities. And thats something that were seeing. Its not just the eas carriers, but all of our carriers. Every day carriers are canceling revenue flights. We know that impacts the reliability. Im very close to the eas program and a shared ed aadvocate. We think thats really important. We know the ability to use the service, the ability to know its going to take off when you want it to for businesses especially is essential, and so i think that this is critical. This is a very critical issue for essential air service. Another issue we have is with some of the pilot supply issues with carriers being unable to even bid on those routes, you get more and more carriers that are bidding under the alternate eas program and so here you have carriers who arent even required to meet the atp regulations that are filling this contract flying because the other carriers that were filling the flying before cant fill the flying anymore. Thank you. Thanks, chairman. Senator manchin. Thank you, madam chairman and thank all of you for being here. To all the Family Members and those flight 3407, thank you for not wavering in at all in trying to help us make the sky safer. Thank you for being here. On the pilots bill of rights, weve been working on that for quite some time and, you know one of the fundamental problems we tried to fix was the appeals process. I would ask you since you have beenwing this so hard, are the pilots today getting a fair and unbiased review of the faa decision in u. S. District court . If i understand the question correctly, the process of appeals through the ntsb i think it was clear that a number of years ago it was quite a bit worse and has improved pretty steadily. While im still concerned and not a lawyer, there are still some people hung up in the system and there should be some time of circuit breaker, if you will, in how we get approach those kinds of legal issues. While its improved much, i think theres room for more improvement. Being a pilot myself i have 3,000 hours and my hours were accumulated, captain over 40some years, so i would ask as far as from the safety standpoint the time the 1500 hours i dont think i have to agree with you, going backwards would not be a way for us to respectfully miss black, i just disagree with the direction youre going on this from a safety standpoint. I know the decisions i have had to make over the many years. Im asking does simulator time zmount do they count simulator time toward 1500 hours . No. None at all . I think theres some credit for university experience, classroom experience. The 1500 you accumulate when youre a copilot flying second seat, does that accumulate . Is it all pilot in command . If i could try to help, senator, and well get you the actual breakdown. But it is there are some circumstances where taking the second seat can be counted as this flight time. It depends on how the aircraft is designed and certified. If its certified for a twoman crew, that time does count. If its certified for a single pilot only even though they may have a second pilot that time is it 1500 hours in the type theyre flying or just 1500 hours flying you must have 1500 hours of flight time before you can apply for the Airline Transport pilot. I could apply with the hours i have. Correct. I dont think you want me in the left seat right now flying you also need a type rating now. Yeah, a type rating, okay. The other thing is is there any time period. A period of time 1500 hours within what period of time . No, sir. So again neither the statute or the rule limit that. I have 3,000 hours. If i go back and get type rating i could the 1500 hours qualifies you to take the Airline Transport pilot test along with some additional specific training in High Altitude and Weather Operations you must demonstrate you had as well. And then you must pass through those tests, and then if you were to be hired by the airline, you then receive training on the aircraft type and receive your type rating. I understand all that. To both of you two, and captain, i will go to you first. I know youre saying theres no Pilot Shortage. Theres people coming into the system. Well call it into the queue. Basically, they could be doing that, and youre saying that the regionals are not paying the price to basically get those quality people in there. And i think miss black is saying completely different because shes not getting the pilots she needs and she has to lower the criteria for them to get the pilots. Am i correct in what i heard from both of you . No, if i could real quick and then well have the captain. There are, senator, 110,000 pilots in this country with Airline Transport pilot certificate. There are another 65000 who could quickly get it. Really the issue and it has been for several years that there are some companies that just arent good places to work, and the word has gotten out, and the first officer on the culligan air flight was making 16,400 a year. Based in newark could not afford an apartment, even to share one. She was commuting from her parents home in seattle on Poverty Level wages. Probably qualified for food stamps. Thats the reality of that life. Even more disturbing than that is they put her on a flight where she had known icing conditions flying in Winter Weather and not prepared. I cant its unfathomable for me to think that its the extent that any regional would put her in that situation. She even knew she wasnt qualified. She obviously didnt feel comfortable with that. Thats tough to the extent theres a problem, its been self inflicted by the industry for paying low wages and having bad working conditions for so many years theres a perception if you want to have a successful career, you might look elsewhere in the financial world for example and not become a pilot. Give you the final on that if you can. Thank you. Explain to us have they changed the criteria of the quality of the pilot and what theyre prepared to fly in what type of weather. Im sorry . Do you make determines nations are you looking at the persons qualifycations, where they did the hours z they do it in florida and not up in the northeast . I think that question speaks to the heart. We dont want to roll back the safety. We dont want to move backwards. Were proposing an alternative pathway and i think were doing it in large part because we are seeing negative unintended consequences from the 1500 hours because flight time does not equal experience. And so when i hear that you want to hire an experienced pilot i agree. But i dont agree that 1500 hours in an unstructured environment where youre largely flying in fair weather is going to get it and it speaks to the point. What makes a difference if its 1,000 or 1500 or 500, theyre going to accumulate the same way, as quickly as they can. Were seeing some data emerge that shows after 500 hours or so theres some negative learning. Folks pick up bad you survive 1500 hours you had to make some decisions. Jin indeed you do. But theres no guarantee its spent in a skaenaire airescenario based environment. What i think we can do is propose an alternate pathway that takes advantage of the scenario based training you get. It certainly does include some flying but that fly something done in a structured environment. Theres a room for flight instruction. Theres a room for the traditional pathway but at some point after 500 or 750 hours if you are away from your time in training, you come out of these great structured Training Programs and then we say to you, you now have to spend a year building time away from your training, i find it surprising that it certainly seems commonsensical you would lose your skill over time. It seems natural your skills would deteriorate and were seeing that. Our airlines are seeing a diminished quality miss gilligan, you noted in your testimony that between 1998 and 2008, the fatality risk fell by 83 and i commend the faa and the Aviation Industry for this tremendous accomplishment. Can you provide the Committee Details on how the faa has cooperated with industry and other stakeholders to reach this goal and what has the role of technology been in reaching this goal . Thank you, senator. We believe that the commercial Aviation Safety Team which is a partnership between faa, nasa dod, and the commercial Aviation Industry had a large role to play in the safety improvements that weve seen. Its always very hard to say as an industry we implemented x and because of that we saved this many accidents. You cant make that detective direct correlation. We believe that the record speaks for itself. That that kind of partnership where you look at the data, you understand where the hazards are, you agree on what will mitigate the risks, and then implement and measure that implementation is what accounts for the improvements weve seen. Many of those safety enhancements included technology improvements. Technology does allow the opportunity for the pilot to be better informed, have better situational awareness, and even often times provides additional time for the pilot to respond to the hazardous event thats occurring. So thats been important but Pilot TrainingStandard Operating Procedures all of those pieces of the system have helped to reach that record. Thank you. Mr. Baker, in your written testimony, you mentioned that one of the major causes of general aviation accidents is loss of control, which represents nearly 40 of all general aviation accidents. So how is general aviation community, how are you working to address the loss of control accidents and what specific challenges would you face in that . As miss gilligan mentioned early on one of the great device that is came out of part 23, make sure we can move through the pathway which is angle of attack. Which i have flown a number of complex jets is a very simple device that tells you if youre about to lose control of the aircraft. Its never been required in light ga aircraft. They have invented and kind of made a product for a couple thousand dollars you can put into an airplane that can give you if youre getting closer to a stall. Either electronically or physically. So its a device that weve been waiting for for a long time. We think our role is also continued training and reminding people of stall training. Thats really important fundamental to aviation. Like i said we had over 2 million call it hits on our site to make sure were really at the forefront of training pilots and reminding them thats the number one issue. Thank you. Miss black weve heard about the challenges for Regional Airlines in recruiting pilots. I hear that all the time from my airports in nebraska, and what are some of the ways that the Regional Airlines are working to recruit and retain pilots who are returning from military service . Have you focused on that at all . Are you looking at trying to bring those military people into jobs within the industry . We have and the first step i guess i would ask you, you know, if youre doing it what do we need to do and how congress can help and maybe what changes need to happen within the faa on that as well. Well, certainly the rule and congress reflects, you know, the importance and the great structure of military training. By giving it the 750 hours credit, and so i think that has been helpful. Unfortunately, there are fewer military pilots coming out. I think there are more of those who are there are staying in the mill fareitary for longer and fewer military pilot operations in general. So were seeing that. In terms of our efforts as an industry looking at ways to get more military pilots the first step is really identifying where our carriers are hiring the pilots and so were in that process now, and so well reach back out to you as we get a little further along. Again, i think with all pathways to have certainty for it just so the aviator knows coming out of structured Training Program that they can go into the right seat of an airline and flow through is going to be very important. We talked about some of the flow through programs we have. Were proud of them. Theyre effective. But we need a little bit more help with the pathway. I hope you will be in contact with my office and let us know if we can help you in any way in getting the former military personnel into that. Thank you. We certainly will. Thank you, madam chair. Thank you. Thank you madam chair. Mr. Baker, im a sponsor of the pilots bill of rights and i believe a third class medical reform will help reverse this trend of a declining general aviation pilot population, will also maintain the appropriate level of safety for pilots who are flying for recreational and private purposes. Your testimony mentions that medical has the potential to improve safety by keeping pilots in the airplanes theyre most familiar with. Could you expand on that a little further . Yes. The faa about a dozen years ago started down this path with testing what we call light sport aircraft. Aircraft that are designed to be flown at under 1350 pounds, 1326 i think is the exact number. And in many cases some old airplanes like the j3cub, and then it evolved into Aircraft Companies that were built with that purpose in mind. In many cases those airplanes are flying and they do well but in bigger wind, and you get wind in montana i know its a little harder to control those aircraft. Were forcing a pilot population, the number one most popular aircraft, 172, if a person chooses not to go down the medical path, they move down to a light stream and an aircraft theyre not as familiar with potentially training complex in eastern montana. The moa there, part of ellsworth. As the administrator in charge of safety at the faa, i would like to discuss the safety of the air space. It was a sleepy part of southeast montana. Well, its been waking up with the energy boom. The Keystone Pipeline routes right through the middle of it. The baker onramp is near the Baker Airport. The faa said they would take its called an Adaptive Management approach to the implementation of this air space. Could you describe what Adaptive Management means . Maybe thats something thats described at the faa what does Adaptive Management look like . Well sir, im not fully familiar with all of the details of this particular project and we certainly can provide that to you and your staff to make sure that you have a full understanding of it. But what we are looking at is how we can best manage the air space to accommodate both growth and assure the appropriate levels of safety at the same time. Growth is a risk factor. So we need to understand how the air space, air traffic, whatever, can manage that growth to assure an appropriate level of safety and the air Traffic Organization does a safety risk analysis so be sure thats being properly handled. That Baker Airport has over 7,000 annual operations and thats the concern is where its all headed here with the growth. And with radar coverage, with realtime communication between airtraffic control, military and civilian aircraftworks that help to reduce some of the risk. It may well, sir. Thats what the safety risk analysis would have to address. I believe a safety risk analysis either has been completed or is under way for that particular project. And through that will identify if risks or hazards are being introduced and what mitigations would be required to address it. And then along the lines here, your testimony highlights the faas proactive nature in identifying and addressing risks to prevent accidents and as part of the flying public, i thank you for that. And specifically the successful commercial Aviation Safety Team the cast model which uses data to develop an understanding of the best actions or interventions to prevent accidents, and this may get into the weeds with the powerder river but do you know if the cast model has been used . The department of defense is a member of the commercial Aviation Safety Team but again sir, we tend at that group to look at systemic broader issues that perhaps individual members of the team cant really address on their own. That particular kind of issue is not something that the commercial Aviation Safety Team. Theyve not necessarily taken that methodology that you know of . Im not aware that they are. Thank you. Im out of time. May i quickly add i used to flyf4 phantoms and while it was often restricted areas, i think the realtime traffic that was provided the realtime use statistics of the air space often made it available to civilians. I think the Nellis Air Force base range complex would be a model you might want to consider taking a look at. Thank you for that. By the way, i texted my son and said i was in a hearing with you and he texted me back and said a true american hero. Thank you. Thank you, captain. Senator sullivan. Thank you madam chair, and i would echo senator danes comments. Its a great panel so really, really appreciate everybodys testimony. Very, very informative. Its just a wide variety of views. I really appreciate what youre doing. I think were all in graeme on the importance of safety for our citizens, for the flying public. Youve made some very important contributions already. I want to talk about kind of the issue of regulations with regard to how we do this in a way thats most effective, and miss gilligan, i want to start with you. We had a hearing last week with regard to infrastructure in terms of aviation, and as you know a key part of safety is aviation infrastructure whether its updates to runways and things. One of the things that has been i think for many americans, many members of congress, a frustration, is just how long Infrastructure Projects now take. We had the manager of the seattle Tacoma Airport testifying last week. It took 15 years to permit an additional runway at that airport. Not to build it. It took three years to build it. 15 years to permit it, simply permit it. Do you think that the aviation infrastructure delivery process needs reform, particularly on the up front regulatory side and would you be willing to work with this committee on suggested streamlining particularly of Infrastructure Projects that relate to aviation . We need those out there and yet we have a system that pretty much inhibits the ability to do that. Well sir as youre aware, we have an office of airports which is responsible for setting those design and safety standards, but i can assure you that the faa is willing to work with this committee and with your staff on any initiatives that you believe are important to consider in the reauthorization proposal. So i am not as familiar with who some of the safety and Design Standards are as our airports organization, but certainly well be willing to work with the committee on those kinds of questions. Great. Thank you. I had a followup question for you and mr. Baker. It is relating to the 80 sb plan and, you know, that is something particularly in many ways was pioneered in alaska and right now leaves approximately onethird of alaska without coverage with regard to altitudes that our general aviation pilots fly. I know its not practical to have full coverage, but do you believe that there is a minimum Operational Network that we could have with regard to 80 sb coverage in the state that is something that would provide safety but also a target to shoot for given again how important safety is but also obviously how large the state of alaska is . Id welcome comments from either of you. Senator sullivan yeah, i have flown alaska a number of times myself in small airplanes and i have seen the advantages where it works in the traffic and other things in the weather that you can now see. So im a big support serer of adsb. We also want to work with the faa on pockets and places as we go down the line that really need attention. But were fully on board with sport supporting the growth of adsb. Do you think we could get to a minimum Operational Network in place like alaska where obviously youre not going to have coverage over the entire state, but shooting for that kind of minimum thats helpful in terms of safety . Well senator, as you point out, alaska has been a leader in adsb and other technologies to enhance the level of safety in those very difficult environments like alaska. I dont know that weve committed to a particular level of network service, and we certainly can provide that information back to the committee. But, again were always willing to work with any initiative that is will enhance safety and make the system more efficient as well. Good. We would like to work on that and with our pilots on that initiative. Finally, mr. Baker you mention in your testimony a lot, you talk a lot about the poshsimportance and success of the industry working with thef aa to address many of the safety issues. One of the things that struck me is youre doing that in a way that i think is very useful but also doesnt go through the rather formal and cumbersome rule process that can take, again, back to my original question, years. Can you highlight some of the examples where youve been working on a more informal basis with the faa to make progress on some of the safety issues that get proper input from industry . I think weve worked together well on a number of issues and as it relates to angle attack which we pretty much covered as a device that will show you if youre near or close to a stall of your aircraft. I always think forward. We have over 40,000, almost 20 of our total airplanes that were built before 1965. Wow. And so we need to think further ahead that Safety Devices like inexpensive autopilots should be part of the thinking as we go down the line. Ipads have changed the way we think about navigational situational awareness. Its completely changed unfolding maps. As we work to the future, we have to think about the inventory of the airplanes out there that are important transportation devices in many cases and certainly important recreation. We have a number of meetings set up about how do we equip further down the line. Thank you madam chair. I want to thank the panel again for your excellent testimony. Thank you. Thank you. Im going to call on senator cantwell who has additional questions. Thank you, madam chair. I know were trying to wrap up here and i wanted to get in a few things i wanted to be clear on. Mr. Hart, you believe that we should close this loophole as it relates to cargo pilots on the sleep rule, is that correct . Thats correct. Medical fitness is one of our most wanted items and a huge part of medical fitness is fatigue and fatigue applies to everybody operating complex equipment. Miss gilligan, the faa did make that recommendation before and it didnt get through the process at omb or something of that nature . The notice that proposed the change to flight duty and rest rules did include the cargo community, but as we completed the process for that rule, it was determined that we could not sustain that requirement, but as i pointed out we do believe there are other ways that that risk is being fully addressed and that our inspectors are working with the Cargo Carriers to make sure that through their Safety Management systems the Cargo Carriers are looking at their schedules to determine whether, in fact fatigue is an element and if so this the faa made the recommendation before, right . Its so a matter mntsb made the recommendations, believes we should make all the pilots under the fatigue rules and the faa youre saying has previously looked at closing this loophole . We had proceed itposed it that way but we could not sustain the proposal for the final rule. But Safety Management systems require that the carrier look for risks. They have to identify if they have any part of their operation where theres a hazard and when they find that they must address it and theyll do that in conjunction with our inspectors. What are we supposed to think about this issue that popped up in seattle a man falling asleep the issue of outsourcing maintenance and possibly, you know saving dollars or something of that nature and finding somebody who falls asleep in the cargo hold . Should we be looking at the entire Maintenance Crew and their maintenanceoperations and their maintenance. Our fatigue recommendations are broad in their application. Its not only pilots, its maintenance, airtraffic controllers, its everybody in the system. Okay. Thank you. Miss gilligan sorry. Did you want to add anything . With the Safety Management system, the new rule we have thats going into place the carriers will have that responsibility. They need to analyze where they have hazards in their system whether its a specific rule or it is some operating procedure or process that they have which is introducing a hazard. So if there is fatigue in how theyre scheduling their Maintenance Workers or how the Maintenance Work is completed, they will need to analyze that and correct it. Well, its certainly a wake yaup call and people i think we need to ask these questions and faa just recently said to united airlines, we have concerns about what youre doing. So i think weve got to make sure everybody is complying with what we believe are the best conditions for flying. Kaft sullenberger, did you want to add a comment to that . I certainly do. Sms and fatigue Risk Management systems are important, but they are additional layers, additional safeguards. What we need to do is close the loophole. Solve the fundamental problem, ensure that the Cargo Carriers have to build schedules that comply with federal aviation regulation 117 which is the fatigue rule that the Passenger Airlines have to comply with and not try to fix it later with, quite frankly a bandaid approach. We need to solve the problem. Fatigue is fatigue whether youre carrying passengers or packages. And maintenance . And maintenance. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you madam chair. Thank you. I would like to call on senator peters. Thank you, madam chair, and thank you Ranking Member cantwell for holding this hearing and certainly its been a fascinating hearing and enjoyed the conversation from our panelists. I know theres been quite a bit of discussion on the required hours and pilot experience prior to being a copilot so i wanted to explore that a little bit further if i may. Miss black, you talked about the pay structure of Regional Airlines in the 22 to 24,000 starting salary. How does that compare to one of our Major Airlines . What do they pay their pilots . Im not as familiar with the mainline pay scales. I have one airline that is paying more than some mainline counterparts but at both regions and mainlines, that first year pay is often lower. It jumps in both cases by at least in the regional case by 32 by year two and then 50 by year five. Now, for most of these folks who are coming out because as weve talked about earlier we dont have as many military pilots as we once had which is a source of pilots with significant hours. We now have folks who are basically training themselves in the fact that they have to seek out training and pay for it on their own dime. Do you have any numbers as to the amount of debt the average student has when they come out after theyve completed training . I dont but i know that our University Partners do and so id like to get that back to you. Id like to know that. Captain sullenberger you have a long history in the airlines. Do you have any idea of the differential in pay between a Regional Airline and somebody coming into one of the majors . I would imagine at least 50 . A minimum of 50 coming in. And i would add that this widespread perception that jobs entrylevel jobs at the regional carriers are not good ones is deserved and its become more widely known and i think to the extent that there are people who are making other life choices for themselves and for their families, its because of that. This is something that theyve done to themselves, and its easily reconcilable if they simply offer starting wages and working additions that will attract qualified candidates who are out there but are currently doing other things. Miss black, it looks like you want to respond. If i may. Regional airlines are part of the natural career progression. I think thats a natural fact. First year first officer wages in particular are lower for a number of reasons. First of all, the marketplace. Second as you know in many cases they are collectively bargained. We have several examples of Regional Airlines who attempted to unilaterally raise first year first entrant pay and they were rejected by the union. So when we talk about pay, and i think we should, we do need our labor partners to acknowledge that theres a role in that process, too. We agree its important to phrase those salaries. The good news is we have raised the salaryiessalaries. The marketplace is reacting naturally i think and so as part of the natural career progression that jumps again and again and its meant to be a seamless progression from regionals to mainlines. The reason why a young person is going to question whether or not to go into the career its not because they dont love flying because i would have loved to have been a pilot myself but i wear glasses. It was difficult to do as a young man. Its changed i think now. But its because of the economics. That is very expensive process. You have to pay for the structured Flight Training and what is the number of hours you come out of structured Flight Training . Between about 350 and 550. So then you need to get another 1,000 hours of flying time, and if you are flying youre probably flying Different Aircraft. Youre probably going to be an instructor. Does that impact, captain does that impact even though someone may have 1500 hours if theyre paying for it on their own dime and they have to mine myselfimize the cost, is that adequate training when you step into the cockpit of a jet . There are several things i want to make clear here. First is that pilot passion will only carry you so far, the same as passion for any professional will. At some point, like everyone else, like all of us we are going to want to be able to buy a car or have a family or eventually buy a house have a life. And we need to have a career path thats going to enable us to do that. Thats why the Regional Airlines have had so much trouble because they have been offering for so many years a substandard set of wages and working conditions to try to continue to make fit in the real world a broken economy model. So simply by correcting that, all that follows from it will be much better. Let me also set the record straight. A lot has been talked about structured versus unstructured training. They make it seem that there are two things out there that exist that really dont, and one thing that doesnt exist it doesnt matter. First of all, the Regional Airlines as compared to the majors in spite of the majors in spite of the improvements that theyve made that have been essentially forced on them by Airline Safety act of 2010, still are not up to the same level as the large Major Airlines in terms of their training. They just dont have the same kind of environment that the majors do. The majors also depend upon having pilots show up who have the qualifications. Again, its important that everyone who gets in the first seat of a Regional Airliner or a Major Airline as a pilot is fully qualified from the outset. The other thing i want to clear up is that theres somehow something wrong with is having other flying jobs and having real world experience. Let me explain to you the difference between the structured, you know hand Holding Training environment and the often ambiguous and messy real world of operational flying. In the real world of operational flying you have to develop the judgment, you have to have the skills you have to have the knowledge to do the job and that is something thats built over a period of time. Thats as important as having the training environment, which is really a much more sterile environment and when you arent as able to make those judgments arent as able to develop that skill. So both are important. Again, were back to that false dichotomy that theyre trying to impose on this gate of quality versus quantity and of course we need, we must, we can have both. Thank you. I think my time has expired. Thank you. Senator blumenthal. Thank you. I appreciated your comment just now, captain sullenberger about the difference between the real world and the training environment and the quality that are necessary to deal with the real world as they are in many endeavors and challenges which are different from what can be experienced in the artificial environment in training. You mentioned those skills and experience and the passion for flying. I think, you know one quality that sort of pervades all of them is Mental Health and i dont know whether you have given thought and i would invite the rest of the panelists as well, to whether there should be better screening for Mental Health periodically just as we do for physical health, because Mental Health can impact those qualities of readiness and skill and even fatigue. Were here today in part because in 2009 the tragic crash of flight 3407 in buffalo was the result of, in part, fatigue, but fatigue often masks Mental Health issues. So my sort of openended question to you and, by the way, i appreciate that Beverly Eckerds sister nancy is here today from Beverly Eckerd of network my question to you and maybe the other pan lists if they wish to answer is whether Mental Health should be a subject of screening, whether it should be not only an issue thats put to the pilot or copilot, but also to his fellow pilots and copilots because they are the ones that are likely to get to know him or her and see whether that person conditions to have a passion for his or her work, a focus and concentration, a real ability to function in those demanding circumstances when the challenges are greatest. So i invite you to address that topic. Senator, thank you. Id be glad to. This obviously is something i have not only thought about but i have recently written about. In fact, the germanwings crash shocking horrific event thats unimage thabl to professional pilots, it flies in the face of everything that we stand for, everything that we believe is ills stra testify in several ways. First of all, this particular pilot who had just over 600 hours, i believe probably an nbl pilot, could not have been an Airline Pilot in the united states. Didnt have the requisite experience. And the down side of not having had the requisite experience is that he wasnt vetted repeatedly by a series of different employers and a series of different flying jobs, he wasnt observed for a longer approximate period of time and the 149 people on that airplane played a horrific price for those failures. Its also important that we realize that in any domain, and weve known now for 40 years in having a history of using aviation safety, selfreporting systems, that there are some critical Safety Information that can only be gleaned by selfreporting and from no other source. So whatever choices we make whatever improvements we suggest based upon whatever the findings are ultimately of this clash crash, we need to be careful that we do not decrease selfreporting because my understanding of medical knowledge is that it doesnt quite yet enable us to predict when some one person may have a break. In spite of the fact that we do screening, we have regular medical examinations and we are required on a regular basis as part of our recurred training to demonstrate our knowledge, skill and our judgment and in spite of how close the working relationship is in a cockpit where youre literally elbows length from each other you spend sometimes 14 or more hours per day locked in this little cockpit closet where no interaction goes unnoticed. Its really difficult to know exactly who that other person is in spite of the fact that we have professional centers committees at our pilots unions where we can go to our pierce who are trained to intervene in cases like this, we can go to the chief pilot, the faa can pull someone in for a special evaluation, really selfreporting is one of the most powerful ways whether its in the pilot or a Family Member or the person themselves. So selfreporting has to be preserved and encouraged. The consequences for Self Reporting should not deter the selfreporting. Yes, senator. So what that means is we have to create and maintain a just culture and not a punitive one. There needs to be a Clear Pathway for the pilot to say i need help, to get the help they need, when the condition is resolved that then be able to get recertified and eventually come back to work but pilots who are not fit to fly should not fly. Thank you. Thank you, senator blum that you will and thank you to the panels witnesses for being here today. The record will stay open for two weeks. My colleagues are free to submit written questions and we hope you will comply in answering them in that time period. I know i plan to submit a couple to the faa and mr. Hart. So, again, thank you to all the witnesses. I know you will continue to follow our work on this issue. Were a swrurnd. This weekend the cspan cities tour has partnered with Cox Communications to learn about the history and literary life of toe peek can a, kansas. The very act of signing it, of signing that piece of paper was viewed by missouri as an act of war. So when northerners decided that if popular sovereignty will decide the fate of kansas we are going to send people to settle, that was viewed as an act of war by many missouri wrans who had just assumed this would all be theirs. There are raids back and forth across the kansas border almost immediately. In may of 1856 john brown, his sons and a couple of other followers attract five men from their cabins along the moss keet toe and padawadamee creeks and they are shot and hacked to death with broad swords. That effectively cleared that area of southern settlers. Here in toe peek can a you would be hard dress breasted to determine whether white students or africanamerican students attended because the school board did provide all of the same materials that the white schools offered and what is even more interesting for most people when they come to visit is they find out that after graduating from Elementary School africanamerican students attended integrated middle and high schools. While they certainly were no supporters of segregation and obviously saw the injustice of having to attend separate Elementary Schools the Africanamerican Community also was very proud of their schools because these were excellent facilities. So while there was support for the idea of integration, there was also some resistance especially from the teachers and the local chapter of the naacp who feared the loss of these institutions and the loss of those jobs. Watch all of our events from tope can ka saturday at noon eastern and sunday morning at 10 00 on American History tv on cspan 3. The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee is convening a hearing to investigate the recent gyrocopter landing on capitol hill that prompted a security scare. The pilot of that aircraft who was arrest