Transcripts For CSPAN3 Todd 20240704

Well, good afternoon, everyone. Kent lassman im the president at Competitive Enterprise Institute. I want to welcome all of our viewers for another of ces book forums today. Ill be joined by todd myers. Hes an expert in environmental policy. He is the author of a brand new book out this week called time to think small how, nimble Environmental Technologies can solve the planets biggest problems. He comes to us more than two decades of policy experience. Hes been a leader at the washington, the state of washingtons department of natural. He lives in the heart of the Cascade Mountains with more than 200,000 honeybees as part of the puget sound salmon recovery council. And he works day to day with our friends at, the washington policy center, where the environmental director, as a reminder, sir, we want to get you involved in. This conversation for our friends join me live. I encourage you to use the chat function at the bottom of your screen enter questions those will be sorted and said to me where well get them in front of todd so that we can talk about your ideas and your for those of you that dont have that access, you can try to send an email to events at cei dot org and well get them in the for those of you watching on youtube or cspans notes, welcome back. Were very happy to have you this entire conversation and as well as all of cei programs are Available Online at dot org under tab labeled events. So todd, welcome to the Competitive Enterprise Institute im really to have you with us. Id like to kick off with what i hope is easiest question for any book tour, for any author. And that is tell us about your book. What catalyzed you to write it and what are you hoping to get across . Well, thank you. Its really to join you cei. I really appreciate the work that you do. I have been a fan and, worked with your staff for a very long time more than a decade. And the thing i like about cei is that they are tenacious, fighting, bad environmental policy and unfortunate play. And i think in the world of policy, environmental policy has become synonymous with environmental policy and. So thats why i wrote my book is because i worked in environmental policy more than two decades, as you mentioned, at the Washington State department of Natural Resources on issues like old growth, forest health, spotted owls, all of that sort of the big issues. And i got frustrated that what saw happening with environmental policy is that so much of our policies are made based on politic and making politicians and people feel about themselves rather than the things that actually were most effective. And so there was a lot of symbolic things that were done for the environment. And i think thats folks on the center right are often frustrated or sort of nervous about engaging on the environment because theyre worried that environmental policy has become so synonymous. Big government and we need to change that. And in fact, you see is that every day people on the center right live surrounded by the environment. If you look at a map right, where the red parts of the map, the red parts the map are where the nature is and where blue parts of the map tend to be. Urban areas. So how can we do that . Can we express policy, the care that we have to be good stewards of, the environment in a way that isnt just contributing to Big Government . And so thats why i wrote my book time to think small in time to think small is about small efforts rather than Big Government. Empowering people, not politicians. And so what you see around world are that you give people we have now have the technology to give people the power to do things that are really for the environment, that are about results and symbolism. And ill just give you a very quick example. Whenever people talk about Climate Change as if its the only environmental issue. But clearly not. And one big issue that i think everybody agrees is trash in the ocean. Ocean and the desire to keep plastic out of the ocean and. The United Nations signed an agreement earlier this year and theyre still trying to figure out to do some states Like Washington have banned plastic bags in the hope that that will help. Thats not really the problem problem is primarily in developing countries and so a group called plastic bank started hiring people in like the philippines, brazil, egypt to collect plastic and they can show where theyd collected it on their phone because. Its a they have a geolocation gps and then they would give it to a plastic bank. They get paid on their phone because often they dont have Bank Accounts and then the plastic is recycled, sold to sc. Johnson so when you go to the store and you buy a windex bottle, itll say made with ocean bound plastic. Now none of this technology is particularly difficult, but 93 of people in developing countries have cell phones. But using this very low tech, very simple, small efforts, they have collected more than 3 billion plastic bottles that would have washed into the ocean and more than £140 million of plastic. So more than governments are doing just with these simple technologies. And i think its a fantastic example of how thinking small, small approaches and power with technology are doing more than government approaches. There is theres a lot there, but lets see if we can set the stage for folks because we skipped over the last 50 years. So the plastics example i think is very illustrative and its helpful for. To give a little bit of history and maybe you could explain for our audience the environment, mental and therefore Environmental Policies that followed it follows a natural progression. Some 100 years ago there was a upsurge in interest in preservation. About 50 years ago, we focused on source point types of regulation and pollution so where the big problems are, we look at those places and we create rules around them, rule bound responses. So with the plastics we have plastic flowing into the ocean were not talking about how it gets there, whether its coming out of a dump or falling off a ship or whatnot. Were about the solution side of it, which is not big regulatory Central Command answers. Its markets and volunteerism and connecting people through technology. Could you walk us through kind of these what are all the moving parts here . Because weve got regulate ocean of central regulators. Weve got clean up efforts that are small and personal. Ais, it seems like we need to name all of the pieces yeah, so great. So one of the things that i say and i sort of hinted at that people are concerned that environmental ism has become synonymous with sort of Big Government solutions. And in many ways were stuck in the 1970s with how we think about environmental. And as you pointed out, the problems that we faced in the 1970s with air and Water Pollution were point sources. They were big smokestacks. They were big outfalls. Right. The cuyahoga catching on fire, those sorts of things and targeting and solving those problems. Government is actually pretty good when there are a very limited number of sources and they can focus on those and have a big impact and was what we saw in the 1970s with the creation of the epa. Those two laws was that it did actually make our air and make our water cleaner because. They could focus on a few sources. Our problems today are very different. They are distributed. Theres lots small sources and. So what we do today has to be different and you dont take my word for it, you can actually take the word of bill ruckelshaus, who was the first director of the epa who did, you know, who sort of first implemented a lot of these laws. And so actually my book ill just read he wrote a great column ten years ago where ruckelshaus said yesterdays solutions worked. Well, on yesterdays problems. But the solutions we devised back the 1970s arent likely to make a much of a dent. The environmental problems we face today. And so we have to change our mindset to deal with the types of problems lots of little bits of ocean, lots of using energy and having small impacts. In puget sound, where i work on salmon, one of the biggest problems is simply tire rubber bits of tire rubber that go into the water. And if you try to do the same kind of top down 1970s approach to those problems, not going to have success and that fact is what were seeing is is that a lot of those problems are not being solved, which is why a lot of the people on the environmental left are turning to these sort of distributed technology based, innovative solutions. There is still an instinct, i think among many to turn to government, but when they really want to solve them, were finding that Innovation Technology is the answer not those Big Government programs from. The 1970s and just for a moment, unpack for us what you mean. Its there in the title and youve made some to geolocation and mobile phones and whatnot. When youre talking about information technology, its more than a supercomputer that fits in your pocket right or were talking about hardware and software as well as distribution. So hundreds of, millions of people empowered. Help us understand a little bit more to your last like i said, 93 of people in developing countries have some kind of cell phone or a smartphone. And so the ubiquity of the technology is simply part of it. The supercomputer in your pocket, a big part of that as well, just being able to communicate and collaborate with people immediately in a way that simply didnt exist before to use of Ronald Cossey in language the costs are very very low to collaborate and so you can do things that only government could do before but its not just cell. It is Smart Thermostats that use intelligence to help you conserve energy in ways that you dont even have to. Think about in my electrical panel, i have a Little Orange box called a sense monitor. A connects to the electrical wires in my house and a million times a second detects what electricity is coming my house to determine what of appliances im using, where im using electricity, and then gives the information so that i can make those sorts of decisions. So the the fact that technology has been so made so easy to develop and is so ubiquitous, not just cell phones, but lots of other things has given us lots of new opportunities to solve problems and do things that. Only government could do ten years ago because the transaction costs of collaboration or information were so high, they just werent available. So lets see if we can work through a couple more terms. As i read through the last week in the last week i kept under underlining and circling terms. I thought, well i know what that means. But then i would come in three or four pages and i would have a much deeper understanding. So why dont you tell us what is Citizen Science . This is something thats been percolating around in magazine articles for two decades, but but youre talking about it in a very real now sense. Yeah. So Citizen Science people talk about it now because as its its real, right . You can you actually can do a lot of things in Citizen Science and its basically just its a combination of two things one people providing data that previously was not available. So just to make a tangible example for people who are birders, they use ebird. I use ebird and ebird is just an app where put in the birds that you have seen, where you saw them and when you saw all of that data though goes, to Cornell University, there ornithology program. And they are now able to use that data to determine bird migratory patterns and do a variety of cool things, both scientifically and for habitat preservation. So people, corporations is much bigger than a third grader with a tin pan in the backyard collecting water right precipitation rates. Absolutely. And in fact, its funny that you mention that, because one of the best Citizen Science programs on the web is called ci starter, or where it has a list, a long list of Citizen Science programs. And the who created it, Darlene Cavalier was doing Citizen Science programs, kids. And shes like, hey, i want to do it. I want to find ways to help. And so it expanded and. Technology has allowed us to span expand it, but its not a really a new thing. Aldo leopold has a wonderful essay from 1943, the great conservationist aldo leopold, what he calls wildlife sports and what he says is like amateurs become interested, different animals learn about them and then become experts in them. They are not, you know, sort of credential phds. They are just amateurs are interested in it. And of course, in 43, we didnt have the technology that we have to share that science and, share that information in a way that we now. But its not a new it has just been made very powerful with technology so that simply putting birds into an app contributes to Scientific Research so what does lets stick with cornell ive ive gone to their web page over the years to they also have a library of bird calls. So yeah listen not just see on a map where birds have passed through or where theyre found or population intensity, etc. , whats to keep the accuracy high, you know, when they hire, graduate students, they send them out into the field with some hiking and a pair of binoculars and a theyre counting on the graduate students, to be honest. But in Northern Virginia, if i go in my i go to birder and i say, i saw a penguin, you know, it goes into the database. What what are we doing . What do we do about that sort of problem with citizen scientists . Maybe not malicious, but people make errors, right . They think they saw a rare bird when did not how how is that accounted for . So theres a variety of ways. So, one, you mentioned bird calls. One of the things that ebird does now is if you hear a bird, you can actually press a button it will record the bird and identify the bird for you, which is really cool. But lets say you are certain that you have seen a penguin in Northern Virginia. When you go into it knows where you are and it will say, here are the birds that are that you could have possibly seen. So first it simply said, you cant see a penguin. It will tell you it wont give you that list, but you say, nope, i a penguin and you put it in. Cornell has merely and millions of bits of data that they collect and so if among those million bits of data is sighting of a penguin, they know that it is anomalous. So theyre a variety of layers of protection that they can use. So by using this data, both first by narrowing it down based what they already know, but by determining whether penguin the sighting is anomalous and if all of a sudden 200 people in Northern Virginia see a penguin, it either means that Climate Change has really done something strange or they need to call the local zoo because there is a penguin list. But unless they those 200 hits, theyre going to say this is a mistake. So they have parameters can send for error rates to to track that down would you mentioned with the leopold article concept that i think is all around us and people are aware of but they dont think hard. What it can do for science. We talk a little bit about gamification i ive been taking my kids hiking since since they fit in one of those little backpacks. You know, since theyre about a year old. And if it off, i will tell you, at least in my household, in their early teens, when they dont want to spend alone with their father. And it came back for my oldest when she got into geo caching. And so she started collecting badges for finding geocache caches. What is what is the badges and the tokens and the numbers . How does this all contribute to as opposed to just being a distraction . Us yeah. So of the challenges of with ebird and other things like that is that people see a lot of birds where they live, where they like to hike, where there are pretty views, but in the middle of the forest or off the beaten. They dont have very many sightings because its hard to get there. And so youre just an amateur birder. Youre youre going to stick by the road. And so a thing called roadside bias. So they have a lot of data in some places and very little in others. And so just like geo caching, we have a thing called avocation where you go out and you they say, look, we need to do sightings in this area. And if you do sightings in area, they will give you points and then you can get rewards like, hats and shirts and, you know, just prestige that you sees among your community. Youre so collected, voluntary private association community. Thats right. So you what happens, like i said, that the cost of collaboration is now so low that even if youre not part of a birding group, you are still part of a birding community. Online on ebird and if you can score points to show that you are one of the top birders in Northern Virginia, thats pretty cool. People like that. They respond to that in addition to sort of the fun little trinkets. But it is a way to supply that basic citizen data where people are going out their normal places and getting the data they need. Theres one in key thing, which is and is a key to gamification. Initially, ebird was built as a system where they would say, heres the data we need. Go it. But what they found is, is that it is better to tell people you do what you want and and work with them and, reward the people using the app rather than treating them just as graduate students going out into the field. And that becomes more effective so consumer response rather sort of top down mandates is what makes ebird really work. And i think its a metaphor for the types of things that im talking, helping the environment from bottom up rather than the top down. So, so i dont want to put words in your mouth and i may even be borrowing words from your book, but it seems to me what youre describing is that solve a problem of the citizen or of the consumer, as opposed to just solving problem of the regulator. So the problem of a consumer might be they have trouble keeping a list of all the birds theyve seen or might have trouble identifying a bird. So theres theres attributes the app that help them with their problem and then it then it grows from there. Then it becomes useful or marketable in the community. Is that fair . Thats exactly right. And i think that is a key to making Environmental Action resilient and sustainable. If your environmental policy is contingent on the next election if it is contingent on sort of forcing people either through regulation or taxes or other things to do, what want they may revolt. They may say, no, im not going to do that. Or they can be undone at the next. But if your strategy is to say, look, im going to help see the birds you want, see, get prestige, im going to help you save energy. Whether or not youre concerned about Climate Change at all, those things are durable, right . Youre not dependent. Doesnt what the Election Results are, youre to keep saving energy because you want to pay less. No matter who is elected. That consumer focus is what makes empire and mental efforts at this sort of small level durable for the long run, rather than the political instability we see, which goes back and forth. And thats why i think its just fundamentally a better approach for the environment than relying on politicians to do the right thing and not relying on election. The before we get more into policy applications, its just more question or at least one for now. So stick with birds. Theres a nongovernmental solution that we we can read about in your book that deals with migratory patterns. And again, you brought this notion of a cozy and bargain. So a large ngo goes to farmers and says, we want habitat but we dont want a habitat year round. We only want to ask. The birds are passing by. Right. Could you talk a little bit about that program, that project . Because i think its really illustrative of. Again, solving a problem for the farmer or landholder instead of just saying from a top down place, we want access to the land and we dont want to use any other source or any other activities. How did that work out . Yeah, and it is a very cozy in approach. So using ebird data because so Cornell University now has like millions bits of information. So they know very precisely where migratory seabirds are traveling and they were able to do in the Central Valley of california is to say okay these are the plots of land where they pass over. And we could turn those farms habitat. It would really help them their way. So the Nature Conservancy use that data went to those farmers and said, look, in january and february, we want you to flood your field to however many inches water because it will improve the habitat for those birds as they travel. How much would it cost . They did a reverse auction and the farmer said, well, if you paid me this, i will do it. And so they went ahead and did that, and they called it. Im sorry. I just i want to explain for just a moment or ask to explain a reverse auction means. The farmers are not bidding against one another necessarily. Theyre just saying how much its valuable to. Me. Correct. Right. Thats right. So they say, look, you know, its going to cost me something to that. I may lose a little bit of time planting, but if you, you know, pay me this amount of money, it would be my while and Nature Conservancy said, great, well do that. And thats that habitat is valuable to us because. We know because we have the scientific data. Right. They have the certainty that that habitat will be valuable. And so theyre willing to pay it. And the farmers now have certainty that they will get revenue and that is worth their time. And so they call it pop up wetlands. Some people refer to it as airbnb for. They use it for just a very short period of time, right on their migratory route. Nature conservancy pays for it essentially rents the habitat for a short period of time and then the farmers later can go do what they want to do. But it is the of the Citizens Science Data Collected because we now have the technology and this coast in arrangement where each side says heres what heres how valuable it is to me. And then there is an agreement made and it was a very successful result and and you contrast that the endangered species act which uses regulation to force people to do things makes the bird or animal a liable ability on their property. This makes the bird an animal an asset and, you know, its just a more powerful to engage private landowners to help provide that habitat for whatever species trying to protect. I have a long list of questions for you but i see we have our first question from the audience. I want to get get the audience involved as. Reminder to everyone else. If you have questions, please use the the function at the bottom of screen labeled chat and well get those fed into the conversation here. Our first question comes abby and she asks if have any ideas about how your strategy could assist with efforts to reach the paris agreements . 1. 5 degrees celsius target follow on question which we can. So what do you make of International Regimes like these now . So lets start with the the easier one. How can nimble nimble technologies affect co2 emissions . So i will set aside the 1. 5 degree target because people have big fights over that and whether its worth the cost. So i will just address the question of how can these of approaches, you know, reduce co2 emissions rapidly and effectively. The first thing, though, i think, is is that there is an assumption in these questions that the Paris Climate Accord and other things like are effective. And i find that simply not to be the case, the u. N. Actually put out a report recently basically saying that we are nowhere close to meeting the two degree target, let alone the 1. 5 degree target. So, you know, countries promised that were going to meet these goals. Many of them dont even have plans that are that can meet those goals, let alone the actual implementation. Here in Washington State our governor has been talks a lot about Climate Change is considered a climate leader. We have missed every single one of our co2 targets and in years when i was supposed to be going down over last eight years, co2 emissions have been going up. So i think the first thing we have to do is recognize that there is a lot of false promise and a lot of false hope in to governments that they can achieve these because the history is they dont do it very well, but we do because we dont think theres an alternative right. We feel like its the only hope. And yet you talk about how we take cars off the road. Yes. Yeah. So but there there are lots of cool things where we can apply technologies and thats a great one. So ill mention that one. So there is a really cool company called, pantone khiam, that is in canada, but is now working with cities in the united states. That is going to change. That is trying to change transit. And its not just small busses, its macro transit and what they call it is on demand. Macro transit. And so rather than a normal system where you have these sort of static routes that go around, theyre people to say, okay, heres where i am and heres where i need to be by this time. And if uses an algorithm to put the bus to create the bus route on the fly so it knows where, pick up the people and get them to where they to go and not only is that more effective because people then have certainty that they can get where they need to go. But it is very effective at reducing gas use and carbon emissions, so it saves money for the Transit Agency and it is less impactful because what would happen with the old routes is that you would go long areas time periods of time where nobody was picked up, but you had to go the route with on demand. They simply say no theres nobody over here, so were just going to cut this off. And they found that it saved gas cut co2 emissions and was effective. And the percent, the number of people who rode transit up radically because they knew exactly that where it was going to go. Again, consumer friendly, appealing to the consumer saving energy and reducing co2 emissions. But it doesnt even have to be that sort of big sized. It can be very personal in the uk, there is a utility called Octopus Energy that is that focus is getting people to remove to renewable energy. They specifically look, we want people who are concerned about Climate Change. But one of the key ways they do that is that they charge market rates as the rates go up in the evening, charge higher rates as the rates go down at night. They charge lower rates. And in fact, there was even a windstorm where there was so much wind energy in the uk they actually charge rates in the middle of the night and asked people to to use electricity. The beauty of that is, is that it . What they do is they give people tools to shift their outside of those high cost, which saves them money. But those periods of time or when you typically have to turn on natural gas and coal and things like that. So its the most carbon intensive. So you can simply say of washing your clothes during peak hours, which is also the most expensive and carbon intensive, wash it at 11 00 at night when. It is less expensive and youre using more renewables. Now, again, you have to worry about Climate Change at to find that attractive because youre going to save electricity. So those are the sorts of things that think can be more effective over time with small incremental, making it available to everybody to reduce our co2 emissions and meet whatever target we determined appropriate rather than just relying on politicians in the hopes that they will meet the targets which history says they rarely do. Theres a further example that i think would be worth explaining. You know, in the late seventies, president carter on television and encouraged people to wear a sweater turn that turn the thermostat down. And now we can use a phone to program an air system. The air system will help decide when to turn the thermostat or down, because sometimes we to we want to preheat or pre cool the building given the the external forces the sunlight is going to come during midday. So if were going to want to cool it down maybe we want to cool the house down earlier in the day. How does all of that Technology Interact with day to day life . You mentioned that you use this in house for electricity. Are you getting pinged ten times a day on your phone . You need to adjust things. How or inconvenient is this. If im not an ultra passionate, tiny pincher saver when it comes to my electric, i am, but again, the people i live with are teenagers so i dont win this battle over what does it look like from the consumer side. Yeah it cant be that right . It cant be that. Youre getting notifications ten times a day because people will simply turn them off and they wont use that. You need help to find ways to save electricity without it having to be omnipresent. But the first thing is, is that we just need to have a sense of what it costs us. If i asked people what does a hour cost . They dont know. A kilowatt hour is and they certainly dont know what it costs. If i ask you what is a gallon of gas cost everybody tell me instantly what a gallon gas costs because it is everywhere. And so the first thing technology is provide you a sense of heres how much money is spending by leaving lights on, doing this or that which they have now. The second step is the one you referred to, which is how do you with that in a way that is not a that is intrusive, that not pressing on you and. Thats what Artificial Intelligence does, is that it says, look, i know are the Artificial Intelligence, which im now making sentient says i know when you know when rates are high when youre in and out of the house and how to make you save money. And the other thing is, is that its its not imposed. So i tell this story and theres always who come in to me in the audience and say, i not want a smart thermostat knowing when im in and out of the house and, you know, control my thermostat and things like that. And i say, great, you dont have to do it. The tradeoff choices are yours to make. Whereas with top down policy, those trade off choices are made by someone else. And so i think that is why people on the center right can really embrace these sorts of things because it allows them to do to save money, to be efficient, to let Market Forces work without it being imposed. And they can say, im not comfortable with this, but i am comfortable this and make their own choices and so let me let me try to unpack for just a moment, use weve used back and forth and i have the benefit, unlike most of our audience, of having read the book. But we keep talking about Artificial Intelligence. What is it fair to if we were to substitute really, really powerful pattern recognition instead of something that is a little bit a little bit scary sounds, a little bit like hal 2000 now. Thats exactly right. Its not. Yes, i dont i dont want hal 2000 in my house but something as simple like on the nest if its connected to your phone, you can you can you can do that. And then when youre out of the house, it will say, oh, youre out of the house. You dont need the house of 72. You can have the house at 63 or Something Like that and say electricity that way. So sometimes as simple as that. But in other, it is pattern. Oh, i know that usually get home about now and you want it here, but there are some really cool things it will do on top of that. So lets say it knows that at 5 00 youre coming home, but that at 5 00 rates start to go up. What nest and other Smart Thermostats will do is that they will precondition your house at three and 4 00. They will get your house up to temperature or even slightly above when rates are low knowing that your house will be able to maintain that temperature simply by holding the temperature because of the insulation during the period of time when are high. So you are still comfortable, still get the temperature you want but you have done it in a way that reduces your costs not because you had to think about it but because the pattern recognition understood that and helped you comfortable at a lower cost. So lets lets explore the incentives here for just a moment. And i would for a moment set aside the incentives of government regulators, our state utility commissions and lawmakers and, whatnot, the utilities. One might think, want me to heat my house at the last possible moment when the rates are the highest. Right. Right. Because thats where theyre going at their marginal revenue, marginal profit. What incentive to the utilities to encourage these sort of smart technologies, whether it be for water or electricity or other aspects of of what youre talking about. So in some cases, utilities dont where is a regulated monopoly . There is tension and regulators do is they say, okay, you have to that you helped consumers save you have to provide rebates for Energy Efficient heaters, things like that. And so its mandatory where there is a regulated monopoly. But where there are regulated monopolies in the uk, like texas and other places, you see different Business Models that are aligned with technologies. And so for instance, there is a utility in texas where you pay them flat fee and what they do is they provide you electricity that is reliable, but it is upon them to try to find you reliable electricity that is the lowest cost. And if you want renewable and other things, amenities like that, they can provide that. So incentive is to make you happy as customer and. They get a flat fee and they are very aggressive about helping you find technology which is like Smart Thermostats and other things like to reduce your costs. So you do in some cases need a business business model. You talk about incentives the incentives have to be different but technology has made those Business Models possible and they do exist in like texas, the uk and elsewhere. And you are starting to see those which align our mental concerns with price within what would be the next step . How would we adapt the practices . We talked about the business practices, trying to solve the problem of the consumer, make them happy. What is the next step for evolving the role of the regulator. And one might think that we need fewer authorities sent to central regulators at that point. How how does that change wheres the regulatory state in this mix and mash of Citizen Science and evolving technologies to address environmental concerns. So the question is how do we get from here to there . And thats a that is a difficult question right. But think again, you can make incrementally and what you find is that when people are given a little bit of power a little bit more control, they dont want to give it back. They the regulators try to clawed back, but they start to put pressure on regulators, give them more options. And ill give one of my favorite examples from seattle. So im in Washington State. Seattle has a majority socialist council. And so. About eight years ago, they put a hard cap on the number of uber and lyft drivers that could be in the city. Two weeks later, there were so many in the Council Chambers uber drivers, uber riders and others that they immediately rescinded it gave an unlimited amount of uber and lyft. Now, even in where the council is socialist, where the mindset is very far left, they had to respond to people who had been more power and control and given more choices. And so that, i think, is the power of these technologies, is that it is very hard to see how it will go. So how do regulators respond . Theyre going to want to try to keep their power. But when you give people power options, they want to keep that and they will put pressure on regulators to provide more of those things. So there is no Straight Path to be certain, but the only path is really possible is if you give people the power and they exercise it, which we see that they already are. Im in favor of creating a reward, a bounty for any legislature puts regulatory commissions out of business. I think we need to align their incentives. We might get afoul of some some ethical concerns with that. Let me switch gears for thinking what incentive is better than bounty. But anyways, let me let me switch gears just a second. We havent talked as much about species preservation, but there is this wonderful anecdote that i think sets imagination running. And i was you could tell us about turtles and poaching rings how does that unfolds and why does that matter . What are the implications . Other environmental questions . Yeah. So sea turtles across, the globe are threatened and endangered. And one of the biggest problems is poaching of turtle eggs. Turtle eggs. People eat. Them, theyre a delicacy in many cases. Theyre not for subsistence, but they are sort of like a bar snack. But they are valuable. And poaching a clutch of turtle eggs can be very valuable to people, especially in places like nicaragua. So when turtles come in, they dig a hole they lay their eggs and the poachers grab those eggs and then will sell them. So theres a wonderful group, passo pacifica, that in Central America and they have worked with what they call turtle rangers to go to the poachers say, look, do you know the impact that youre having . And the poachers will say, yes, i understand, but ive got to feed my family. And so they actually know the poachers. What they were interested in is like, whos paying poachers, what are the networks . Because those are the people that we need to get to. And so they had a revelation when they were watching actually breaking bad about tracking a shipment. And so they said, i if we could do a tracker. So they created and this is all private, right . This is private association. This is an ngo. Yeah. This is not this is not an ngo with a thousand people. Right. This is an ngo with a limited number of people and a limited number of of turtle rangers working on the beaches. And so they technology was the way that could multiply the power their efforts because they dont have a thousand people. So they created a small turtle egg. They actually printed it with a 3d printer. They made it feel like a turtle, sort of soft. And they put a tracker inside that could be tracked by cell phone. And so the purpose is that you could see it go from one place to another. And so they actually had a woman who was getting her ph. D. Test this in costa rica, and they put these in clutches, her name is helen veazey. I talk about her and she was putting all eggs in and they were getting they were having no luck. But finally, on the last night, she said she almost didnt even go out, one of the eggs was poached. And she said she sort of felt funny about celebrating poaching a turtle egg, but it allowed them to test the technology. And what they found was that the went all the way across costa rica and was sold the sort of the back alley of this Grocery Store and then was taken out into neighborhood to be sold door to door. And they were able to see exactly where the poaching ring sort how it worked. But that small, simple Technology Made on a 3d printer, just with technology thats available basically everywhere, magnified the power of this Small Organization to understand poaching rings and fight turtle egg poaching. And its and its being used in the caribbean and its going to be used and others have talked to them about using for different types of poaching. So this is the logical extension. It sounds me of private conservation with. The overlay excuse me, the overlay and application of information, the 3d printing, thats the glue of the false egg, etc. Why is it that regulators i can imagine scenario where at the epa if you brought them a proposal to put something inside a endangered turtles nest they would have conniptions they would theyd send out troops to arrest me. I even got down to the beach. Why is it that regulators adapt to the Success Stories even when theres proof of concept . What . Whats standing in the way theyre there . Theres a variety of things. First, one of the things you see is, is that these technologies are developed often in developing countries where government simply is not an option or. Government is the enemy. In fact, government puts troops in nicaragua or did put troops with ak 47 to stop poachers. But whats happened is, is that they just get bribed and then folks up the chain get bribe. And so now government is actually some ways complicit with the poaching. They have been paid off. And so one of the lines i have in my book is, is that small technologies are more powerful, ak 47, because people with the ak 47 can simply be bribed. And so thats part the answer is, is that rather just focusing on the u. S. And developing countries, you see a lot of these technologies substituting for government. The lack of government ability or government corruption in the united states. I think that we have to be more creative tive about these things. Having worked in government agencies, you know, the people who work there are convinced that what doing is the right thing and. They do many good things, but government is not innovative and government moves very slowly. Technology moves very fast and the problems, environmental problems often move very fast and there is just a mindset change. The very first thing that has to happen is a mindset that to recognize that these tools are available. And so like in the case of seattle, permissionless innovation comes in and, changes the entire environment, government sort of scrambles to keep up. And so of the reasons i wrote this book is just get people thinking about Environmental Solutions in a different way so that we can find the answers to regulatory problems. So regulate. So the regulators arent just saying, no, were not going to change. Were going to do it the same old way. Were going to try of these new things to see how they can. But i think any effort to change those regulations has to start with a recognition that these alternative approaches are valid, which i think is sometimes challenging. So we early on, we talked about some of the foundational federal here in america. They deal with species and they deal with pollution to areas of regulation that have a lot of activity, a lot of regulatory engagement, the private sector and the way we live our lives. Theres a third area and i wonder if you could explore for us where one of these technologies or theres a line of thought about new technologies online could help with safety safety regulation. Water comes to mind it comes to environmental safety. But im sure there are other examples. Is there an example that youd like share about regulating toward safer environments and what we can learn from these new technologies and how to apply them . So one of the examples that i gave in my book about this very area about water safety is the flint water crisis. We just saw a situation in mississippi. Washington, d. C. Has had water, health. But in the flint water crisis, the government, they changed the source of the water which caused a lead and other things leaching into the water, made the water very unhealthy. And what you saw in that situation is both the state of michigan and the epa were very slow to respond to people were literally holding bottles of water that theyd gotten from their tap that were brown. And you have the government at the state and epa were saying were looking into it we think its still safe. People were dealing with it every day. And the dramatic moment for, me was that there was an epa was talking about once they recognize that there was a problem, they said, well, maybe we can buy filters for folks. And they had a pot of money that wasnt for that. But they sort of said, maybe we can justify it. And there was an email in the regional epa office from one of the administrators who said yeah, we could we could use it for this, but it would be unusual. And the quote was and im not sure flint is the kind of community we want to go out on a limb for. So for those who think that the epa is always out there to help them recognize, you know, in flint, they failed badly. And those are the sorts of failures where they didnt want to take a Political Risk for. The community as people were suffering. But there are obviously technologies, filters and other things like that. And there are monitors that can show that the water had light in it, that the water had other problems. In fact, the problem was initially identified by not by government, but by researchers saw it. And so all of small private technologies, both were what detected it and ultimately what could have solved it. And then, of course, while the water was being changed back, it was private companies of bottled that came in and fixed. And just to put out sort of the cherry on, people said, okay, well what about all those bottles that were used . There is actually a group that crowdfunded in flint that took those plastic bottles and turned them into. And so even the low cost using crowdfunding the low cost of innovation dealt with the environmental problem of the plastic bottles that was really becomes my manufacturing input. Right. Thats right. So flint, i think is a great example. Government failure and innovative Environmental Solutions. So throughout the hour here, weve been talking about these technologies combined, wide distribution and many, many people access to them through software, through hardware, through their phones, whatever it would be. Its helping collect information. Its helping aggregate. Its helping analyze information as the Software Side of it. And now youre talking theres a monitoring function for ongoing activities. Right. And this is where the safety kicks in. All of this sounds very familiar to anybody whos studied economics. But i think what youre telling and im just going to ask you to reiterate before i get to our next question, these are all norm mill things in the marketplace, right . If i if i go out to sell or the lemonade stand, these are sorts of things im thinking about. Its not necessarily a normal thing for a regulator to be thinking about Information Collection aggregation, analysis and monitoring. Theyre thinking legal analysis. Theyre thinking about rules and things of that sort. Is that fair or am i being unfair . Am i wearing ideological blinders there . Well, i think that there is obviously does collect information. But when government collects information, it uses information to try to make decisions or figure out how it can achieve goals it wants and there are two aspects of it. I think that there is a legitimate aspect of it, which is information to make better decisions. I am not an anarchist despite the fact that i live near seattle, so i dont think there is no role for government and i do want Public Policy people to have the information necessary to make better decisions. And if making mistakes, i want to make that so some of that Information Collection is valuable, but some of that information is about how can we nudge people in the in the in the direction that we want them to go . And its not their choice. And that, i think, is they have a lot of that information. We dont citizens sometimes have less information about themselves than the government has about them. And i want to change that imbalance, that information imbalance, to give people the information so that they can make their own choices, rather, government having, you know, the majority or even a monopoly of the information and might feed right into our last question from the audience. Monroe asks nest other similar products specifically with nest. Its a product of google. Google is in the business of capture and they make sales based that business and theres a lot of consumer distrust related to privacy risks associated with those technologies. So this brings to the question, how would you calm the of of that marginal consumer . Thats not sure they want the technology in their house. Right. Or do we do we think that perhaps its just an inevitable conflict that . You know, if you dont want all of your data flowing out of the house this is just not going to work for you. I think theres two answers to that. First, i will say that i am a Technology Geek and i live a semipublic life. So i am less worried these things than others. And i recognize that my privacy. Right, that there is data that that that companies have on me that would definitely make other people uncomfortable, which is why has to be voluntary, which is why has to be a consumer focus. And part of that consumer focus saying were going to respect your privacy, were not going to sell your data, were not going to use it in ways you dont want. And, you know, monitoring that and determining whether thats that or whether they live up to that, i think is a challenge sometimes. But google has a reputation and because people are frustrated with the way that they use that and that has become think a a challenge for their business model. But if you dont want a nest thermostat or you dont want a sense monitoring your house like i have or other things like that you have that choice and i think thats, great. Whereas with so many government programs, you dont have that choice is my second answer, which is there is always going to be a tradeoff. And one of the things so i see time to time articles about that when there was an Energy Crisis in california that peoples thermostats were automatically turned down degrees or turned up to degrees depending on the weather. And people are like this is very intrusive. I dont like this. How is it that you can reach into my house and turn my thermostat on . And i agree. And in many watts interesting is in many cases people signed up for it but didnt realize it, which gets to sort of the monitoring and you know issue, but the alternative is government simply turns your lights out. If theres a blackout, they can do. And so, yes, i dont want government or others reaching into my house and, forcing me to turn down my thermostat however much or limiting how i use electricity. But they can already that and i would rather sort of a surgical approach to the media acts approach that government already has. So in some ways theres no perfect answer. A lot of ways theres no perfect right. But the question you have to, you pick your poison. And and i think that turning down thermostats and actually a reward saving a little money for doing that, even if its intrusive, is better than government simply coming and turning your lights off, which in california theyre facing frequently because of those government rules. Okay. Were going to have to start the wrap up process. I do have a couple of questions for you very quickly before we just my administrative work, i want to remind or least share with the audience one point that i very much hope to about is a favor to economist who is underrated, underappreciated, who gets a great deal of discussion of her ideas. And thats ellen, eleanor. So please check todds book todd myers, author of time to think small how nimble Environmental Technologies can solve the planets biggest problems before we leave and lose you for the afternoon, todd. Two quick questions. Anything that we missed that you wanted to make sure the audience heard and what are you working on now that youre so excited about . Well, weve covered a lot and i think the message i just want to reiterate is that conservatives, people on the center right who care about the environment every day in their lives theyre hunters. They go fishing. They hiking, they live around the environment see the environment as a policy as as uncomfortable because theyre worried of the implications. But these sorts of options allow conservatives to engage on both policy and Environmental Solutions in way that fits their values and, also crosses party lines. Many of the stories in my book and the foreword is actually written by a woman from wild labs, which is a project of the World Wildlife fund. There is a lot of agreement about how we can solve environmental problems using these tools. And so i just want to encourage people on the right who, care about the environment to engage these things. And, you know, were coming up thanksgiving and every thanksgiving there are these articles how to deal with your, you know, uncle, your crazy uncle on about the environment, basically people like me is who theyre talking about and what might i hope that my book can be is give people some tools and some answers and, you know, maybe even give it to your favorites. College to say look here is a better way to solve these problems that is more effective and achieves the same goals that we both want. So one of the things that i talk about with conservatives, all the time is to have confidence on the environment that the solutions that work and many other areas also work for the environment and not be of this discussion and what im working on. Go ahead. Yeah. I was going to say, lets make sure that we tell what youre working on at the washington policy center. Yeah. So we work primarily on Washington State issues. A lot of things that start in Washington State. Its spread to the rest of the country. You know, i think as tough as it is to live in washington, theres no better place to be on the frontlines of, especially in environmental policy. And so in washington policy dot org is where i write you can find me on twitter at at a policy green and you can see whats happening here. It reaches the rest of the country in many cases. I want to thank very much and ill remind everyone that if you know someone, you know, an environmentalist, they dont have to be a hiker or somebody that goes out on the sea or a hunter. Anybody that cares about clean air, clean water, the world around, us, thats a person we can call an environmentalist. And many of them find