Adders Here are some words with which to consider the economic news of the day protectionism mercantile lism also trade war and now one from American Public Media this is Marketplace. Marketplace is supported by Progressive Insurance protecting commercial vehicles and offering specialized coverage is designed to protect your business more and progressive commercial dot com And by Legal Zoom providing business owners with ongoing legal advise through their nationwide network of independent attorneys more info and Legal Zoom dot com slash marketplace and Vantage partners a consulting and training firm helping companies advance by aligning transformational strategies with the power of collaboration partners dot com. In Los Angeles on Congress go it is Thursday today the 41st day of Meghan is always to have you along with everybody so look we have been bandying about the phrase trade war for a couple of 3 months now right ever since President Trump called basically the entire global economy unawares when he said this on the 1st of March 25 percent for steel it will be 10 percent for all of them but one set of tariffs in the various exemptions and exclusions and carve outs to those tariffs does not a trade war make it's when those exemptions go away as did the exemptions for Canada Mexico and the European Union today and the retaliation gets going that things really start to get ugly in response to these measures in Canada intends to impose tariffs against imports of steel aluminum and other products from the United States that's kind of those foreign minister Chrystia Freeland one of the characteristics of a trade war by the way to that are directly retaliatory sometimes referred to although not often on this program as tit for tat 25 percent and 10 percent are the tariff rates today imposed by the United States on Canada. We are today publishing 2 lists of goods one list which will be subject to a 25 percent tariff the 2nd list will be subject to a 10 percent tariff and other trade war indicator specificity in targeting these countermeasures will only apply to goods originating from the United States and also trade wars are typically really tough to end these counter measures will take effect on July 1st 2018 they will remain in place until the United States Flamini its its trade restrictive measures against Canada it might be relevant to note at this point that Canada is the single largest source of imported steel to this economy 17 percent of our imported steel it's also our 2nd largest single country trading partner behind China and it's one of the closest allies the United States has and that gets me to this the statement from the White House this morning announcing these tabs President Trump It said is taking action to protect America's national security from the effects of global oversupply of steel and aluminum the relevant section of the law here is section $232.00 of the trade Expansion Act of 1962 as amended which led to the president a just key imports in the interests of national security but the letter of the law doesn't really explain everything that is going on here global economy strategy was Marketplace's Mitchell Hartman starts off the trumpet ministrations says it's trying to protect domestic metal producers so they can make what we need in a crisis and Jacob Kirkegaard at the Peterson Institute says the national security justification might work under World Trade Organization rules but he says I think the deeper underlying motive you this is an administration that really wants to combat outsourcing to make it unprofitable for American industries to locate production abroad that would keep jobs here and they want to force pretty much everybody else to come and invest in the United States creating more jobs here so. Make and export more import less the trade deficit drops another administration goal though economist Rene Bowen at u.c. San Diego says that wouldn't really help domestic industries it simply means that we're going to restrict consumers from having the products that they would like to pay for and some of the industries the administration is out to help aren't onboard with imposing tariffs on major allied trading partners here's Lauren will of the u.s. Aluminum Association essential issue facing the industry is illegally subsidized overcapacity in China she says making imports from Canada Mexico and the e.u. More expensive will just make it harder for u.s. Companies to add jobs Mitchell Hartman for Marketplace tariffs kind of seem like a thing between countries right but individual business is often one of holding the economic bag Walter Seigenthaler is the executive vice president at the max Detweiler Corp they use imported steel to make among other things something called Dr blades used in industrial printing the 2nd dollar Welcome to the program thank you 1st of all sir tell me what would you your reaction to the news today were what was your gut reaction Well I kind of expected it that it will go this way of course it puts us into some kind of uncertainty but v. Are really focusing on getting I would own exclusion not counting on an exclusion of the e.u. Because I think we have a good case to make since to still be out importing is not it doesn't get manufactured in the us it's not available so I think we hopefully get exclusion approved if you don't get your exclusion your exemption and these tariffs go into effect as the president announced today what happens to you in the steel you need to make those Dr blades Well our product gets considerably more expensive and we're going to have a real problem at hand because the have a number of competitors state produce stop the plates out. Sites of the u.s. And they can import the finished product without the duty on it that it will be in a disadvantage that's an important point because what we're talking about here are tariffs on imported raw materials steel not tariffs on imported finished products that's correct your competitors then I imagine will undersell you or your profitability will go down what happens to the people who work at that plant there in North Carolina well if it gets so that's point then we have to really consider Does it still make sense to manufacture here because we manufacture in Switzerland India and China you could import from there as a finished goods but that's not that's not our target our target is to keep manufacturing here is Abilify to for our What exclusion how many jobs are we talking about are directly affected in production it's 16 but if you have to close down that manufacturing they also have to cut down on overhead so they have model can at about 20 people alter Seigenthaler He's executive vice president at that whether we've got them at their factory in North Carolina Mr Seaton dollar thanks so much for your time sir I appreciate it you're welcome Tim pull is with the Gemini group another imported steel user trying to figure out what's going on Mr Poole it's good to have you on thanks very much glad to be here tell me what the Gemini group does and why you need imported steel Well the Gemini group manufacturers extrusion dies. Out of the it's 13 steel is that good still aged 13 still the ice 13 is a high quality tool still Ok And you've been getting it from overseas right the majority of it yes we can import it from the Brazil and the you are right so give it given the news of the day what it what are these tariffs going to mean for you and for this age 13 steel that you need this leader is going to be an increase in prize coming to us in our purchasing you know that it's going to be a prize that we will or an increase that we'll pass along to the customer and we've already talked to the customer about it you know so. Yeah it does it impact us yet has some impact but it's nothing we can't work with I think for the future and then of course in the future may change have you explored in your capacity as a purchasing guy sourcing this stuff domestically absolutely we have and without a few domestic suppliers that we're working with right now right what are those conversations like when you I imagine you go cold calling these companies saying hey do you have age 13 Still I can buy well you when you're in the business long enough you get to know a lot of the domestic steel mills and so forth and so yeah you just start calling me and say look you know what can you guys do there's one in particular they do make the h. 13 steel that we need is just a matter of pricing at that point oh yes so now you're motivated to find a domestic source for your production with these tariffs right just simply because it's a tariffs are creating such an impact and now the domestic suppliers can be more competitive with their price even though domestic steel is going up substantially what your tolerance level for how how changeable trade policy is nowadays I mean it's seems to be going back and forth and back and forth between trade wars on trade wars off I don't know what's happening where the tariffs are you dealing with that it's like the definition of uncertainty Well it is the definition of uncertainty but we look at it or at least I look at it from a standpoint of there the long term is that is probably the best for our country as a whole to me that it is time for a change you know that's how we make our country better temple the Gemini group is full Thanks so much for your time so I appreciate it yes or no problem so the Canadians and the Mexicans are pretty trade angry with us Mexicans announced their list of tears this morning as well do you know the Europeans they are terrifying and taking the u.s. To the World Trade Organization because after Canada Europe is our 2nd largest supplier of foreign steel products chief among the things they are trying to figure out right now what are they going to do with all that steel if they can't sell it here from the European Desk in London. Marketplace's Stephen Beard has that one it's not yet clear how much European steel will now be priced out of the u.s. Market or exactly what will happen to that European product that's turned away Charles de lis Senor speaks for European steel makers some products might be used in other places some products might be scaled back in terms of that action but we don't know at this stage what that impact is really going to be it's very early days the omens for the European industry are not good however the global oversupply of steel has been put at 400000000 tons yet that's 400000000 tons of the stuff which the world doesn't want to buy Gareth Stace of the u.k. Steel Association says if the u.s. Market dries up a lot of foreign steel will head this way something like 20000000 tons of steel now will need to find a new home to go to because we are a free and open market here in the e.u. It will come here we believe therefore further damage asset to the European Commission said today it may seek permission from the World Trade Organization to bar these unwanted imports it will file a complaint against the u.s. Tariffs and impose its own retaliatory tariffs on $3000000000.00 worth of American imports into the e.u. It all looks very ominous and not just for the steel industry says Stephen booth of the Open Europe think tank this possibly the 1st steps as part of a trade war and I'm asked why one is concerned about the E.U.'s countermeasures that could escalate this dispute are expected by the middle of June in London I'm Stephen Beard for Marketplace you know Wall Street traders hate almost as much as a whiff of another European debt crisis when the with a trade war gets real We'll have the details when we do the numbers. On the theory that there is definitely stuff you'll want to know about trade wars and trade policy in general that we here are not thinking of I went out on Twitter this morning and asked for your questions we got bunches of them it's safe to say this one came from Sean Byrnes he asked How long will it take for these tariffs to affect the prices of consumer goods Marketplace's Amy Scott was on Answer duty today that's actually starting to happen already prices of aluminum and steel have been rising in the last couple of months due to the tariffs already in place on countries like Russia and China that did not get exemptions now adding in Canada Mexico and the European Union prices are only going to go up further It takes a while for that to sort of work itself through the rest of the economy maybe weeks in some cases months in others but ultimately consumers are going to end up paying more for things like cars and refrigerators cans of food and beer there's just a whole range of products that could be affected by these tariffs we got this one from Met Dietrich which requires just a tiny bit of a set up he wants to know under what conditions China might leverage its reserves of u.s. Debt and how likely are they to use it in a trade war before we get to the answer you need to know that according to the Treasury Department as of March this year trying to hold a bit more than $1.00 trillion dollars in u.s. Government debt those are Treasury bonds in other words we're told Mary lovely She's a professor of economics at Syracuse University for the answer to this one China has never threatened to leverage the debt any kind of retaliation that China. Uses is a response to the Section 301 tariffs or steel tariffs or any other tariffs will almost certainly be another set of tariffs on our goods so they've already indicated pretty clearly how they intend to retaliate their. Quite clearly. We put a bunch of. Really it's not a bunch but. The show is at Marketplace. To make it 1st. Division. 2 point. Fuels the innovation necessary for a brighter smarter future learn more at data makes possible dot com Western Digital creating environments for data to thrive and see through. The software platform for digital transformation using artificial intelligence and to solve previously unsolvable business problems learn more at c 3. I'm Scott Shafer ost of k.q.e.d. Political breakdown Tuesday June 5th is primary day in California and there's no one I'd rather break down the returns with the my co-host Maury Salada sounds like a date to join us at 10 pm for results from the race for governor Senate Congress and more we'll also hear live from the candidates and reporters across the state tune into political breakdowns primary election night special Tuesday at 10 pm on this public radio station you can hear the election night coverage at 10 o'clock this coming Tuesday here on k c b x local support for marketplaces provided by Thoma electric delivering electrical engineering for small business residential and commercial projects and 160 to learn more Thoma electric dot com They'll turn the lights on for you supporters also provided by Moore and brothers automotive with tips on driving green and selecting a green vehicle at their website. And b r o s dot com You're listening to Marketplace on public radio k.c.b. Accts. This is Marketplace on Kyra's dull as we talk about a little bit more than a little bit of the top of the program you can talk trade policy until the cows come home but it's where that policy meets the actual economy that you get to an understanding of how much it really matters we've been doing a survey of one of the key parts of the American trade economy this week manufacturing 3 slices of how we make things in this country today we've done textiles denim in particular and a company that's had to reinvent itself as the trade economy changed around it we've done iron literally an iron foundry where some of the new changes to American trade policy are more than welcome and today a company that makes Well it makes a whole lot of stuff we're in Columbus Georgia once again and I think our John is for common where John anchor started anchor pack of 2004 he'd been a salesman and you can tell he was good at it in that salesman kind of way but he wanted to run his own business originally he was doing full service packaging literally wrapping up products that other companies had made getting him in boxes around shipping pallets and getting them on their way and then he saw his chance one of my 1st customers I ever had was closing the plant and off showing it to China and Iran to him and I said White why you go in China can I do that and I said John we're moving all our manufacturing all you do is packaging for us and. Ended up they came back and gave me an opportunity to keep some of the manufacturing here as opposed to moving it as I originally planned so you went from acting to manufacturing What were your what was at 1st manufacturing. It was a really hard one and it was manufacturing Bobby pans I was in the water here yeah I can still watch our flat and then we had to paint it and then the 3rd step was put in on I a bob in forming machine and forming the pan and automatically carting it and you made all the investment in capital equipment and worker training. And all of that so it was a partnership and it is truest sense they already own the Quitman There were moving and closed down moving to China so their choice was number one Senator John a lot of plan on just move the equipment China and China have the labor they had to supply Assad and good products had the demand side and so we picked up their equipment gave him a 2nd option that was outsourced to an American company at the same price as an overseas provider I mean the same process showing around a bit anchor competes and flexibility more than it does on price he is profitable maybe not as profitable as others might be but he hustles anchor packages 3 facilities all of them in Columbus about 240000 square feet total the one we're in now is where the manufacturing happens all kinds of manufacturing to composite fabrics commercial refrigerator compressors kind of backing for rugs known as monks cloth and so much more. So what is that what is that smell is that like something and what is well so we were running bobby pins and we had another opportunity I'm going out trying to find ways to manufacture large volume of small widgets and I found another company that was closing down in Tennessee and they were moving this hope factory to Mexico what were they making or my competitors and pans on the razor's all kinds of Office products so the smell that you asked about as it were heating up we got up and worked there adding stuff a knob and then when we got it in that room. And but you could smell it it's great that one of these guys make it over here and I want my going to a special marker this company was closing down in Lewisburg and we ran to him and said What can we do for you so that I said Oh is that your business model what does it do where you're going to send those overseas what can we do for you absolutely I'll tell people I'm like the old life commercial give it to Mikey Hill eat anything I might he likes it that. Closing this whole factor down I'm moving to Mexico and when I ran in there said What can I bid I said John it's all been slated Here's the plant layout in Mexico here's where these machines are going I left I came back home and they called me 2 weeks later and said you know what we've been thinking about it we might giving up to you to quote on some of the stuff that might be suited to keep here in America this is going to sound worse than a minute this sound but you almost don't care what you're making so long as you're making something here in Columbus Georgia that's right I'm not real picky I've said it many times thanks a 100 pennies Mike a dollar and I want to buy one penny at a time I'd like to make a dollar of the time but if it takes $100.00 families I'll do that way. Oh wait I know what those are those are those little markers that you peel back the string in the wrapper and you peel off like the paper sort of coating or whatever it is right that's right it's like a grease pencil or something that's exactly what it is which is low used to use when you're editing radio on quarter inch tape I think for some of our finished product oh yeah there you go they're all packed and ready to go sharper Oh China market. Wire you heard all of this just as you're from going and. It's my it's a town I call home now it's a there's a lot of good bye things about being in a style more old mill town since the NAFTA came into effect just the tax the industry loans lost over 2500000 jobs directly not counting the ripple effects are you worried by the way about NAFTA were cheap e.p.a. Or the trade tariffs or any of that stuff that you hear in the economic headlines right now I'm almost mostly worried about our country if we continue on the same path explain that a little bit well as it relates to NAFTA my workers would like to make more money I would like to make more money I'm competing and I don't mind competing on a global. Mark. But I wanted to be Apple's the apple so I'm worried that if we don't modify or put some more bigger walls up all NAFTA is going to continue to be a slow bleed long term that we want to ever be able to continue the trend as a world class leader in the economic later John acres a big part of the local economy here in Columbus he provides something like 70 entry level manufacturing jobs and he does it really by recognizing his place in the global economy well so let me ask you this it do you think the future with with all respect to what you're doing you're right is this the future of American manufacturing. Well we hear a lot of rhetoric about ha. Ha paying jobs as not rhetoric it is what we want as a country I like it I mean you say rather I love those jobs but I feel like my gift is the help lift people up to put them in those jobs now there's other people that are out there now that are working at these high tech jobs that are now bought a house and a car they're married with children and they came right here from a minimum wage is where I started. There's too many people falling through the cracks I use the side yard our school system as a Jeffersonian system or scraping the gym from the rubble that's the way it started that's still the kind of white is you got to fit in this mold of graduate in 12 years or you're you're just no good or you've got to go to college or you're just not good you've got a lot of rubble and you put it down on a dirt road you can build a really nice highway why I'm kind of proud of my profile we're build the highway and we've got a wonderful culture of family here it's so what I hear you said is you want these jobs to be worth something I want to be more even the machine operator making the grease pencil right that's exactly right it's a stepping stone I can tell you time after time people that we've lifted up and said day they've gone on and they're doing a hot tech manual. And I'm proud of us mamas and I think we ought to be doing more of this right here in America I said on Tuesday when we started this series that manufacturing is worth about 12 and a half 1000000 jobs in this economy between anchor packin the boy brothers a golden foundry and making textiles we've accounted for what about 350 m. This week we'll call it a non representative sampling Yes but the moral of the manufacturing story does hold up the politics and trade policy and the way the global economy has been changing the past couple of decades plays out differently depending on which slice of manufacturing you're in and as we're seeing just today with the steel and aluminum tariffs none of that happens in isolation. We're got pictures and more from each of the 3 factories we visited to report these stories they are at Marketplace dot org Also if you missed parts $1.00 and $2.00 are manufacturing trilogy you can catch them on the marketplace by. The followed on the way out today just as I find it interesting Chrystia Freeland the Canadian foreign minister we had at the top of the program she said there was a whole list of u.s. Products that are going to impose tariffs on besides steel and aluminum here for your edification is just a quick sampling yogurt coffee comma roasted colon not the caffeinated soups and broth and preparations there for Manage your pedicure preparations also whiskies and automatic dishwasher detergents I mean I love that. Marketplace is supported by a college near here mentors used guidance technology to help high schoolers discover interests improve as a teens and navigate the college admissions process college find dot com And by exact sciences offering color guard for average risk adults over 50 has a noninvasive colon cancer screening test that can be used at home available my prescription only information task. And designed to improve task orders for students applying to college and grad school prep smart and enjoy the ride it calm now and that was a whole lot of training but that stuff matters you know down to one percent today Nasdaq down to 10 percent s. And p. 500 up 6 tenths of one percent John Buckley Eve Epstein Stephen Gregory John Gordon Daniel Irby invested. Place editing staff the managing editor. This is a pm local support is provided by 9 or one estates whose chef is harvesting from their kitchen garden you can stop in for lunch and enjoy spectrum. Topped with local tribal Creamery their full menu is available. On several key allies including Canada Mexico and the European Union we have always made it clear. To. Amount of American exports what's next in the trade dispute between the u.s. And its allies That's tomorrow morning. On k.c.b. X. Support provided by. Presenting smooth jazz funk and r. And b. Artist Brian Culbertson the color of love tour. Friday June 1st tickets on sale of Google record and of Fremont. That's now on for N.P.R.'s All Things Considered. Live from n.p.r. News in Culver City California I'm to Wayne Brown the secretary of state says he and his team have made progress with the North Koreans in the last 72 hours but it's still unclear whether leader Kim Jong un is on board with direct talks with President Trump in Singapore next month N.P.R.'s Arun McCammon has this update it's still a proposed summit at this stage but Secretary of State Mike pump aoe says progress is being made he's been talking with a top North Korean official and he says preparations are continuing for the meeting scheduled for June 12th in Singapore says the North Korean official is personally delivering a letter from Kim Jong un to President Trump N.P.R.'s Arun McCammon Pompei o says he made it clear to the North Korean official that there is a bright future for his country if it gives up its nuclear weapons the House Ethics Committee says it's reviewing a referral from an independent watchdog involving a complaint against Arizona Republican Congressman David Schweikert and his chief of staff n.p.r. Susan Davis has the story the independent Office of Congressional Ethics alleges that Congressman David Schweikert violated House ethics rules with generous payments to his chief of staff that exceeded how much an aide can earn from a 2nd job senior staffers are not allowed to earn more than $27000.00 an outside income but Schweikert chief of staff was paid about 5 times that out of Schleicher its campaign committee account the Office of Congressional Ethics can only review allegations of misconduct and make recommendations to the House Ethics Committee that panel has until mid November to decide whether or not to pursue the matter they must make their decision public Susan Davis n.p.r. News the Capitol the Environmental Protection Agency has sent the White House a proposal to roll back future fuel efficiency standards for cars and trucks the move is one of the required steps before a federal rule is adopted rollback would weaken efforts to curb pollution and vehicle emissions contribute to climate change stocks finished lower on Wall Street today this isn't. And this is public radio and for 32 I'm Hank oddly has grown apart with a look at today's local and statewide news thank you Hank and good afternoon the state assembly will soon be taking a bill that will lift some of the secrecy surrounding discipline records of police officers involved in misconduct he. Has More allowed the public release of records when for example officers are found to have used improper force committed sexual assault on the job or planted evidence the bill passed in the state Senate yesterday Liz if you can with the a.c.l.u. You know it's an earlier attempt failed in committee and we still don't have any transparency in any accountability and so I think that that our bill 2 years ago it really brought this issue to light for a lot of people but the legislature just wasn't there yet and I think now they're starting to catch up many law enforcement groups oppose the measure Republican State Senator Jeff Stone says the disclosure could open up officers to more attacks and criticism. If you were impacted by the January 9th disaster researchers want to hear from you the National Weather Service Center research scientists from the University of Alabama are conducting a study about the warning process and how it can be improved they're asking Santa Barbara County residents to answer questions anonymously names and identities won't be associated with survey answers about their experiences prior to during and following January 9th find a link to the study on the Facebook page our coverage of California in the Central Coast will continue in about half an hour I'm going to mark is local support for Casey Vieques is provided by community health centers of the Central Coast look at it from San Miguel to see it says professionally trained pediatricians and dentist provide care to more than 30000 children on the Central Coast where information at community health centers are g. Support is also provided by the festival mosaic there I'm classical series featuring classical musicians playing across John Rose including Harper's rising 9 horses and pianist Christopher O'Riley playing arrangements of Radiohead songs learn more at Festival m o z a i c dot com It's now 435. Support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from Wells Fargo established 852 and reestablish 2018 with a recommitment to customers working off the principles the company was founded on Wells Fargo dot com slash renew Wells Fargo Bank and. M. From Unisys a global i.t. Provider of products and services for securing businesses and governments including stealth micro segmentation software Unisys securing your tomorrow more at Unisys dot com slash security. This is All Things Considered from n.p.r. News I'm Mary Louise Kelly And I'm Audie Cornish unjustified unjustifiable and dangerous that is what France's finance minister has said about the tariffs on steel and aluminum the u.s. Has planned for its closest allies member countries of the European Union Mexico and Canada face a 25 percent tariff on steel and a 10 percent tariff on aluminum they're set to go into effect at 1201 tomorrow morning we're going to hear now from France's finance minister Bruno Lemaire Welcome to the program so the Trump administration says they're imposing these terrorists for reasons of national security to accept that argument no I cannot accept that argument and frankly speaking with cannot understand being hit by American Terry Crow's allies to the United States and we cannot understand at this season but the term to ministration gave Europe and other allies extensions right while it continued negotiating possible limits on shipments to the u.s. So did you not have fair warning I had a meeting this morning with Bieber rose and he made very clear that you countries will never accept to negotiate under pressure we are ready to work with the United States on many issue including your we knew all of the damage. We are aware that the trade system that the w.t. You needed to be improved but we cannot negotiate we cannot enter into any kind of discussion under the pressure and being hit by terrorists will not help us to open the door to any kind of negotiation you said you spoke with commerce secretary Wilbur Ross What was his response to your saying that you won't negotiate under pressure I think that France and the station the way that the signal that has been given by the terrorists on the e.u. Is a very negative and very aggressive want so we do not hire any other she told. But to respond to the terms decision so we would take or necessary measures to protect our industry would also introduce an action to double duty or we deeply regret the fact that we are obliged to do so but we do not cause any of the choice you're speaking to us I understand from Montreal are you planning to talk with your Canadian counterpart about a coordinated strategy against the u.s. . We'll have a meeting at ways that they don't all know and of course we will have an exchange of views on the cause in it responds to the trans decision we would have also very important meeting with my German and my British counterparts we want to avoid a trade war because we strongly believe that the talk of trade war will be a lose lose situation for both the United States and for a year out so we are really in favor although called united approach among the e.u. Member states of course but we all should keen on having good called United Response with all Canadian plans you've said that the u.s. Shouldn't see global trade like the Wild West or a gunfight at the Ok corral it sounds like you are already in a defensive position that we are already in an escalated trade situation but I just ask a question of who decided to enter into that kind of conflict between the e.u. And the United States we have had a very important discussion at the Naval of the heads of states and at the level of the ministers on that question of overcapacity on the street on the looming here and we made very clear to our American friends that we were willing to improve the situation but when he is speaking to resound not the right answer to a real problem which is the problem of overcapacity all over the world Bruno Lemaire is the French Finance Minister thank you for speaking with All Things Considered Thank you have a good day. I buy if you like basketball and you really really like sequels tonight is game one of your dream n.b.a. Finals it is the Golden State Warriors versus the Cleveland Cavaliers again 4th year in a row now most experts would agree the Warriors will likely defend their title handily we shall see about that meanwhile we're going to turn to an Old To Be That is still raging who is the best men's basketball player of all time Lebron James or Michael Jordan for fans of a Certain Age Jordan is was and always will be the greatest part right that Jordan time wanting John Michael people God. Will bring James likely will not win 6 championships like Jordan did but 8 straight finals appearances and being the N.B.A.'s version of The Terminator makes for a heck of an argument for being the greatest in just 6 seconds. Eriksson who is the best ever all to hash this out we have called upon Sammy Hazen he runs the Bulls times which is a blog about the Chicago Bulls and he will be making the case for Jordan and Sammy Hazen Welcome thank you for having me so in Le Bron's corner we have Chris Manning editor in chief of fear the sword a Cavaliers blog they are both with us via Skype and welcome thanks for having me all right since Le Bron's playing tonight Chris Manning let's start with you give me the 32nd case Le Bron James greatest n.b.a. Player of all time for Le Bron it's that he's been this dominant for 16 years that he seems to keep getting better over that time in that span he's made finals Yes he has won all of them but he came back from 31 against the 731 warriors and he's done it with some pretty bad teams you look at the team you drag to the finals this year it's history is not going to look kindly upon the performances or the talent that he has got to the finals this year Ok that's a pretty compelling case. Let's put that to our Michael Jordan supporter Sami Hassan make the case for your guy well the Bron James that is the east georgia of his career but the joint has dominated the old the you had 11 complete seasons with the bulls and with those 11 seasons it won 6 rings 10 scoring titles he's done things that no other player and his generation or almost any other generation has ever done with no insult intended to be fine players of the Cleveland Cavaliers Jordan had a better team behind him do we need to take that into account Sammy his son well when it comes to winning yes you can talk about that but even if you don't talk about championships you can still bring up the discussion that Jordan is better on both ends of the court I'm going to weigh in here because this is the 2nd time I've heard this debate this morning I conducted a rigorously scientific survey of my children in the car this morning neither of whom it should be mentioned were alive when Michael Jordan was playing in the n.b.a. And they both voted for Jordan which surprised me because I thought this would be generational they're watching Le Bron play in his prime is part of this a generational thing I mean I think it is I think I am someone who I was born in 93 so I was not alive through the vast majority of the joiner I'm from Cleveland I've grown up watching the brunt and I think even an extension of it you have kids now that Steph Curry to them is the greatest thing they've ever seen because that is their age so I definitely think it's a generational either of you remotely open to the idea that the answer here is what neither of them the Magic Johnson or Julius Erving or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Bill Russell that somebody entirely different deserves the mantle Well it all depends on what you're looking for it's a winning that it's Bill Russell me personally I like to factor in everything combine which would you know go to mother join Chris Manning I'm going to guess you might beg to differ Well I do think that intellectually you think that's a way to entertain but I think what it comes down to when you break down the different areas and you try to account for every variable possible for me it doesn't mean that these 2 guys. Yeah right that is Chris Manning editor in chief of the Cavs blog fear of the sword and Sammy His son of the blog The Bulls Times thanks so much to both thank you thank you. You're listening to All Things Considered. Next month marks an important anniversary for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints and it's one that comes with some controversy 40 years ago the Mormon church allowed black men to be ordained to the priesthood Lee Hale of member station reports that it's a moment the church would like to celebrate that also brings up a painful past to set the scene for the anniversary we need to do a quick history lesson so the Mormon Church is a religion founded in the United States at the height of chattel slavery $830.00 Lish on Williams as a professor at Utah value of our city she says that the Mormon or l.d.s. Church originally ruffled feathers with its acceptance of black members although slavery was in full swing Mormon congregations were never segregated Mormonism was bold and new and had potential to really bring everybody in under the tent and then it got scared as the l.d.s. Church grew and moved from the eastern u.s. To its home in Utah it changes policies towards black members Williams who's both Black and Mormon herself sees it as an attempt to fit in with mainstream Christianity at the time there was a pronouncement that black people could not enjoy full benefits of membership in the l.d.s. Church they could be baptized but black men were not allowed into the priesthood meaning no church leadership no missions no access to Mormon temples this ban lasted more than a century until June of 1978 when Mormon leaders received what they called a revelation it was headline news I want to toss all the stations k s l word the black members of the l.d.s. Church will now have the opportunity to receive the priesthood now the l.d.s. Church denounces any racist ideology and teaches the all are equal in the sight of God but some Mormon say the church hasn't gone far enough that it still needs to apologize to black Mormons which brings us to a controversy currently playing out Good morning saying I wish I could say that it was a good morning but it's not Zandra brains a well known black woman. Writer took to Facebook recently to talk about a letter a letter purported to be from l.d.s. Church president Russell m. Nelson which offered a blunt and lengthy apology for quote the error of racism taught from Pope of the church the world over and I read it I cried. Real tears RINGBACK. But the letter turned out to be a sophisticated fake that brain said did nothing more than reopen old wounds she wished it had been real and made a plea to her church president President knows the people are. People there to rally it was a relationship with God. Which brings us to this present moment tomorrow night the l.d.s. Church will hold an event called the one commemorating 40 years since black men were welcomed into the priesthood basically the whole family of Latter day Saints throughout the world coming together to celebrate this important revelation made Corbett helped organize the event which will feature both the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and prominent Mormon Gladys Knight Yes that Gladys Knight. I think it will heal a lot of people especially if you come wanting to be healed for Corbett wanting to be healed means looking forward rather than to a link on the church's painful past it's like driving looking backwards yes you occasionally check your rearview mirror but you don't look backwards as you're driving you look forward but some Mormons wonder if you can truly move forward without apologizing 1st for n.p.r. News I'm legal and Selig city. You're listening to All Things Considered from n.p.r. News. This is public radio Ok c.b.s. 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News this is All Things Considered I'm Audie Cornish and I'm Mary Louise Kelly you know you're in your forty's when you become impatient while scrolling down to your year of birth you watch the graduate and you would in a fight with the parents when you have bought a scale with a bigger digital display so you won't have to weigh yourself wearing glasses you know you're in your forty's when you have decided that 8 hours of continuous unmedicated sleep is one of life's great pleasures actually scratch unmedicated those words of wisdom from Pamela Druckerman she writes about turning 40 in her new book titled there are no grown ups a midlife coming of age story and Pamela Druckerman 1st of all definitely scratch on medicated. Hours any words over these days 2nd of all welcome to the program thank you so much for having me talk to me about your title there are no grownups it kind of was born from turning 40 and feeling like wow everyone is treating me like a grown up but I don't yet feel like one I don't feel like what I imagine a grown up would feel like and yet there are all these you know signs some of them you just mentioned like you know I couldn't wing it anymore and coffee and 6 hours sleep I needed my 8 hours or I walked into a shop in the saleswoman would kind of gently steer me to the anti-aging cream I couldn't believe people knew you know I thought my forty's were going to be this kind of delicious secret that only I knew about but it turned out like everyone else could tell to. You I mean one of the things you point out is that your forty's can be strangely devoid of miles times like the big milestones by which we mark up our life and by our forty's they seem either to be all behind us or all still to come yet and the people who used to cheer us on who our parents our mentors who said Good job you're becoming that you're building an adult life those people are now kind of preoccupied with their doctor's appointments and getting their knees replaced and then there's this. Other generation of people below you who you're supposed to be cheering on whether they're your kids or people that are working for you so it's a kind of new very confusing place in the lifespan Victor Hugo called it the old age of youth and my daughter once just said to me Mommy you're not old but you're definitely not younger. What was your sponsor we were in a very well lit elevator at the moment and so I glanced in Marin thought oh my God you're right oh my god you have a point. Part of what you write about in this book is how to say no because your forty's can be so busy I mean as you say you've got your your career is often in full swing if you have kids they need you or your parents often need you you have a couple of pointers in here for how to edit your life give me your top one or 21 of them is definitely to be able to disappoint someone I think especially for women there's a kind of fear of saying no a fear that you know if you say no too often you're going to shut down all your possibilities and in your forty's you kind of know how things are likely to go and you're better at saying you know that just doesn't suit me have some more advice that I got from someone which I thought was great was just do what you want more often don't be so worried about what other people expect no it's going to be that disappointed that you don't want to have lunch with them they'll get over it and if you do the things that you want to do those things go better you know take as much as you want from the buffet go back for seconds nobody's going to be offended you just follow your own instincts and things tend to work out better rather than being self-conscious about them this book is also very personal I mean you write about your childhood in Miami you write about your marriage you write about your sex life in that marriage. You know there was this is not some distant treatise where you're approaching this is an academic and I wonder kind of how did you how did you walk that walk trying to write a book that isn't part journalism but is also a member. It's very complicated hybrid to write I really I very much wanted the book to have a beginning middle and I wanted it to be a story I wanted there to be suspense I wanted you to wait to find out what would happen I read somewhere someone said if it doesn't hurt when you're writing a memoir then you're not doing it right this is one tough part and if I could press on that one in what way well when I was 41 I had a very bad back pain and it turned out to be non Hudgins lymphoma and I had 3 little kids and a book about to come out my previous book and I was suddenly confronted with with death I mean I think in the forty's you are confronted with that you reach this kind of now or never phase of life but for me it was it was quite an advanced diagnosis and I really had to confront. A lot of some very dark possibilities I guess the possibility that your forty's might be the end yes but thank God the treatment worked I was fortunate that there are lots of new treatments but it was a it was I think a lot of people say after they're ill that they change their whole life that they realize what they really wanted and for me it was a process of Elysium that I love my life and it kind of deepened everything but I just want it all the more yeah. You you live in France you've been in Paris for more than a decade now right 14 years but your previous book Bringing up a very was all about how the French are really good at raising kids and in this book you do seem to argue that the French along with annoyingly being center and better cooks and better dressed than the rest of us that they also do middle age better well one RINGBACK difference I found which I it's a small adjustment but I found it quite inspiring as in America the idea is you try to look as young as you can for as long as you can and when the. That stops working you kind of blame yourself and feel like a failure and the French have a slightly different idea which is to be the best version of the age that you are to be comfortable in your own age and that was both more Kamin and a lot more realistic and are you able to do that have you lived long enough you. Succeeded to your ovaries removed you know only in my forties so ask me if you can have a decade or 2 but yeah I try to focus on well it has been a pleasure thank you thank you so much for having me her new book is titled there are no us and Pamela Druckerman I wonder if you would read us. A. Closing thought on page 259 I'm sure. There are stages of becoming a grown up 1st you definitely aren't one and you pretend to be one then you're sure that there are no grownups that they're mythological and don't really exist and then finally maybe one day in your forty's you just are one this doesn't feel anything like you'd imagine it's not all knowing and large it's humble and small but at long last it feels like you and you think just then that this is the best age of all. The 20000 hurricane season begins experts and emergency managers have been evaluating last year's evacuations before Hurricane Irma. Ordered for nearly 7000000 people in Florida you saw a lot of the fuel you saw you know hotel rooms many hotel rooms and people had to just keep going further up the road because hotels were taken in for that story tomorrow on Morning Edition ask your smart speaker to play n.p.r. Or your local station by name. It's All Things Considered from n.p.r. News. Support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from Epson with the eco tank 4750 printer for business comes with up to 2 years of ink in the box for printing up to 11000 pages cartridge free printing with Eco tank at Epson dot com slash eco tank Public Radio. 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This is Public Radio one some of us abysmal k n b a h t one son Otto k s b x out of Barbara and streaming it can see vx to a large. These tests are totally unacceptable for under the 50 years Canada has been the United States is the most steadfast ally the us is imposing steel and aluminum tariffs on Canada Mexico and the e.u. It's Thursday May 31st and this is All Things Considered. I'm Mary Louise Kelly And I'm Audie Cornish coming up this hour we'll hear how President Trump's personal lawyer has protected his boss by making legal threats. Also resign our cat speaks to n.p.r. About Harvey Weinstein and the last witness to.