Yeah, this is over. applause maureen dowd, welcome. Thank you evan. Nice to see you. Thank you. Here we sit a few weeks from the election. Please tell me its going to be okay. laughter what reassurances can you bring me . I cant bring you any. [evan] no . I think were headed for a Zombie Apocalypse here. Do you . And thats regardless of the outcome . No, im teasing. I just think that weve never had two candidates who were so unpopular and everybody is trying to decide who to vote against rather than who to vote for. Not everybody, but many. Well a lot of people are saying this is really gonna be about the nonloser. Yeah. Right, as opposed to the winner. Right. Its depressing when you covered 2008 where there was this wave of positive feeling, not in the clinton camp but just people really wanted to vote for people. [evan] right. And now its all against. Yeah lets take them one at a time. You know both of them. Yes. Youve known donald trump, Hillary Clinton. Youve written about them, youve interviewed them. You have a perspective on them that we dont have. We only get the filtered view of them. Its like the revenge of the 90s here. chuckles yeah, exactly. Thats exactly right. Well well talk about that because everything old is new again, thats true. Right. Whats he actually like . You know, i went out with him on his first foray. You didnt go out with him go out with him . No no no no no. laughing youre welcome. Yeah. Yeah. laughing no, melania was with us. They were dating then. [evan] okay. And it was in 99 and he, every once in a while, every few years would test the waters to see if he could run and we went to miami where he made a speech to cuban americans and he was well received. But i dont think he could really wrap his head around the idea of running then. And he went up to his first president ial rope line and he was very sorta shy when he saw a trump for president 2000. He kinda scampered back to his plane with a fake french impressionist star and the big bed and all the gilt fixtures and the junk food. And, you know, but i think this time he was 69 and he figured now or never and he didnt, i think no one is more surprised at where donald trump is than donald trump. I think he, you know, thought he would test it and then its like a bank robber who goes into the bank and finds all the doors unlocked. Yeah, he cant believe it. Yeah. And yet we have been, as you say, at a point at which he considered running for any number of consecutive cycles. And the assumption was always, well hes doing it because he has a book. Or hes doing it because he wants the ratings for the apprentice to go up. Maybe he thought he would lose and then once he realized he was winning it was too late to not, i mean is that possible that he just couldnt get out of it . Yeah, but i dont agree. Some of the times reporters think hes being intentionally selfdestructive but i just think hes being himself. Which may be, by the way. Yeah, which can be self destructive. Confused for the same thing with a narcissist. Right. Youve written about him a bunch of times, essentially as an outgrowth of interviews. [maureen] right. But he also attacks you. He attacked you as were sitting here not long ago as wacky and i think he called you a neurotic dope. Yeah. He called me a wacky crazy neurotic dope and i was deeply troubled by that, evan. laughter were you maureen . Because i felt like he didnt really put time into it. laughter well in fact dont i remember he called yeah he just used the same generic words he uses about other women reporters like megyn kelly and Mika Brzezinski which is wacky and crazy. And i wanted something more personalized. Like chuck todd has sleepy eyes and Elizabeth Warren has pocahontas and i just got a generic crazy woman one. Well lets see the courage people, if theyre watching this, shes nytimesdowd. Tweet the nickname at her that you think should be her nickname. laughing is he dangerous . I mean, this is the question that we typically ask of president ial candidates running against donald trump, whether its Hillary Clinton or some of the people in the primary. Do you consider him from your Vantage Point to be a dangerous person and would he be dangerous for the country . Well, he has, you know two qualities that are deeply problematical which is a total estrangement from the truth. You know, the times has had to change its policy. Now youre publishing the word lie in a headline right . Right. Right. So, we have never done that and during the iraq war i cant tell you the number of times i went to the thesaurus. Com to check synonyms for liar about dick cheney. So now we can now you can say it. Yeah you can say it so i might have to start writing about dick cheney again. Because all thats changed policy. Speaking of old is new right . laughing yeah that would be a good column actually. Yeah and then, so he has that and then he, you know, its this merger of politics and social media and reality tv. So, reality tv, so its like hes the Kim Kardashian of politics. You know there was a story the other day that Kim Kardashian went on a vacation, a four day vacation in mexico and took 8,000 selfies. And so, in a way, running for president is the new selfie. Its the ultimate selfie right . And were selfie nation and hes using the press as a selfie stick. laughter wow. That was a very good series of things wasnt it . That was actually excellent. So, the assumption here, going into this election was that it was Hillary Clintons race to lose. She seems to be doing a pretty good job of it. Well, you know, often i look at her and i feel sorry for her cause its sort of in 2008 she comes in and she thinks its gonna be a carnation. And then it was like a game of thrones plot. The handsome Young African american prince usurps the queen. And so then she comes in in this time after working dutifully for barack obama and thinks its gonna be a carnation. And then this 74 year old cranky loner socialist who shouts comes in and almost usurps the queen. And now shes in a dead heat with the shortfingered vulgarian. laughing well, youre right. She has to be thinking whats going on here . Well, in fact, she just said not long ago i should be winning by 50 points and there are probably a bunch of people around the country, they dont have to be democrats, who are going yeah, you should be. Yeah well its funny because you know i did a vanity fair cover story on tina fey, a profile of her in 2008. And i think she could not act so she brought in like the best actors like alec baldwin so she could learn and she became a better actress. But its funny that hillary has been around the two best politicians of the modern, you know, century and she doesnt really seem to pick up tips, i dont know. Isnt it possible that we, i try to figure out what happened in 2008. Yeah. I think she was inevitable, thats what we were told and that may in fact have been true and then all of a sudden president obama, then senator obama comes along and hes a combination of zeus and pele and jesus, right . [maureen] right. laughing once in a lifetime kind of candidate and so she was gonna be the one and then suddenly this phenomenon happens and then thats it. Well you know mac dowd has this interesting point that she got it reversed. She ran as a man in 2008 when she should of run as a woman. [evan] switched. Right. And then a woman when she should of run as a man. Because mark penn wrote a memo and said theyre looking for the father of the country not the mother so she was just trying to be all tough and she didnt show, you know, herself and her humanity and then when she cried in New Hampshire people were like yeah well thats, shes a human being, shes great. Thats what we wanted. But she is still trying to prove shes a human being. I mean her aides were on tv today and in the book i talk about how in 92 her aides, when she was running as bills wife, were sending her memos saying this week were gonna, you know, convince people, were gonna reintroduce you and convince people that youre a mother, you care about children, and so after she had pneumonia last week, you know, she came back and she said, ive had a few days off. And the campaign tried to introduce her as someone whos a mother and grandmother and cares about children. But its a very strange phenomenon that for a quarter of a century shes trying to reintroduce herself. Well and at a certain point people just get their impression of you fixed in their heads and theyre not gonna change. Right. And again i had it in my head in 2008 that it was all gonna go well except for obama, when it turns out that actually she wasnt a very good candidate in 08. You roll forward to 2016, why isnt she doing better . It may just be because she isnt a very good candidate. It seems to me that somebody who spent her life so long and so much in public would be a little better at the retell part of this. Right. But she seems to have some impediment to getting there. I dont know, its weird. I think shes charismatic and you do . Yeah i do. Im surprised when people say shes not. One on one or just in a room, you know, your eyes would gravitate toward her. And obviously shes super smart. And i know theres been a lot in this campaign that we cant laugh about. [evan] right, funny if it wasnt so serious. Theres been a lot of bad things. But i do have to laugh at the difference in their debate preparation, cause hes the king of winging it and shes the queen of homework. And so shes getting ready with like huge, voluminous stacks of archenia. And he is, you know, eating cheeseburgers at his golf club with roger ailes and coming up with zingers like some 16 year old boy. You know, with cokes. Right, but this is a campaign in which, actually, preparation may be a negative. I mean, everything that we know about politics, everything that weve seen about president ial campaigns has been turned on its head. Beginning with what you said earlier, most unpopular candidates in history as you say in the book. He may be the only one she can beat. She may be the only one he can beat. The winner of this election will go into office on january 20th with more than half the country wishing somebody else had been president. But this is the year in which lies no longer matter. Right. This is the year in which qualifications no longer matter. This is the year in which preparation no longer matters. I dont know that we, thinking through a conventional election cycle can understand this unconventional election cycle. I think that trump voters understand he doesnt know anything. [evan] and they dont care. Dont care. Theyve decided, even if he doesnt tell the truth. Im thinking about all the lies hes told over this cycle and my mind keeps going back to the nfl sent me a letter, supporting my decision to complain about the timing of the debates because theyre up against an nfl game or two. And the nfl came back and said we didnt send him a letter. I mean, it was like a basic lie. He claimed, they said no. Nobody cared. I couldnt believe that, but thats been the whole election hasnt it . That lies by anybody in this election cycle have been ignored. Well in art of the deal he coined a term for what he does which is truthful hyperobole but its not that. This is more than that, right. And its not Stephen Colbert truthiness, its just a, you know, ive been trying to think of the right term, Wishful Thinking im thinking but thats not harsh enough. But what he does is like with iraq he might of thought in his head that he didnt think it was a good idea but what he actually said was different so he wishes he had been against it before. [evan] right. So we he just says it. laughter [evan] right. Its like wishing will make it true, the disney song or something. Doesnt happen. But you said earlier what is absolutely the case that the media has had to rethink its stance on calling bs on people who tell lies. Right right. Time just had to change its headline policy. There is this incredible transformation on cable news where now theyre putting the word lie in the chyrons. [maureen] right. And theyre coming out after trump makes his 30 word statement about obamas birthplace. And they say two lies in that 30 word statement. Right. Well thats why nbc wanted to showcase matt lauer in the commander in chief forum. But in this election its kind of too important to really use it as a showcase for an entertainer. Youve really gotta have the people who can fact check in real time. [evan] in real time. Who have it in their head like chuck todd and Andrea Mitchell and jake tapper. I mean those have to be the people when you have a big moment like that. Right. Well lets continue down this path. So were very happy to be hard on trump and hard on clinton. Lets be hard on ourselves. Okay. Lets be hard on our profession. Maureen, this campaign, i am more convinced than ever, we suck. laughing ive just lost confidence in a lot of the people who do the kind of work we do. Am i being too hard on us . Well, the press is in a period of deep selfadulation, and its merited in some cases. If the press doesnt know by now that when they go down to a Donald Trump Hotel for a press conference hes gonna try and turn it into an infomercial for that hotel, you know they need to buy my book. laughing cause they should know that by now. They get what they deserve at this point. But on the other hand, i think the press you know, weve been a little too harsh on the press because in the times and the Washington Post there has been amazing coverage of donald trump. And david farenthold, evan and i were talking, should get a pullitzer for his work on the trump foundation. [evan] foundation, amazing work. Which makes it clear that its corrupt as opposed to the Clintons Foundation blurred lines. But, you know, the times has had amazing coverage. So, i think, matt taibbi has a piece in Rolling Stone this month where he says a lot of people who are upset about false equivalency really just want censorship. And i see this with my own friends. They will not read a trump interview and people got really mad at jimmy fallon for mussing his hair and making him seem human. Which, actually, you know, is sort of a problem because Lorne Michael at saturday night live told me he thinks will ferrells w impression helped w win the elec it normalized him, right . Yeah, and helped him win the election. Right. So, these are things to worry about but we also cant censor because Hillary Clinton is running to be the most powerful person in the world and just because trump does things that we have to reproach, and he does plenty, that doesnt mean shes above reproach. And so the subtext of some of this is we have to give her a pass cause otherwise well get the apocalypse. Right. But i think you cant give someone running for president a pass. We have to criticise her issues and we have to criticise his insanity. Im thinking of ted. laughing im thinking of ted cruzs endorsement of donald trump. Right. On the grounds that she would be worse. You know we have to accept bad from him and almost not talk about the bad because she would be worse. Thats the reverse argument that you hear. Right, yeah. Well thats why everything is so screwed up. So i have essays from my siblings. Yeah talk about that, thats great. Who i like to call my little basket of deplorables. laughter in the book about agonizing over trying to vote for donald trump because they dont want Hillary Clinton and they, you know, want to vote republican but then they keep jumping on and off the train when he does something appalling. So after the khan gold star family thing at the Democratic Convention when he said to me also, why was she, the mother, just standing there. And, you know, my brother called and he goes can i kill my essay in your book . And i said no its already, like, in print but, you know, you can see what paul ryan is going through if you read these essays. Cause its just this agony of not wanting to switch over and vote for Hillary Clinton and wanting to be a republican but not being able to deal with the hate and the bigotry. Well the whole idea that weve had a Campaign Cycle in which people have said i endorse but dont support or i support but im not voting. Right its all, yeah, all this twisted rhetoric. This linguistic gymnastics just to justify it. Right. Its crazy. But of course, i want to come back to the question of the media because just as the media made be worth or susceptible, worth criticising or susceptible to criticism, this is the First Campaign i can remember in a very long time where the media is like punched and targeted at political rallies. Its become a dangerous time to Cover American politics. Right. It used to be dangerous to cover foreign politics. Right. I have some, you know, personal experience of this cause two of my assistants who are now reporters, you know, have been involved. So Alex Thompson who was my researcher until very recently, got a job at vice news and he went to cover a trump event in houston last weekend and suddenly im looking at the news and hes been arrested. So the campaign had told him he could, you know, maybe get into this event so he was just politely asking if he could and hes a nice mormon kid from california who called me miss dowd the first two years he worked for me so theres no way he was being obstreperous. So, then the Hotel Manager and a policeman came up to him and he ended up being cuffed. And when he asked what the charge was they said its houston. Right, this is houston. This is houston, yeah. This is houston. So great. Yeah, so i emailed him unless youre the one in jail. Yeah. Otherwise its great. I emailed him in a panic and he was in jail until midnight in a four bunk cell. And i emailed him and he said they asked him when they were questioning him if he was a gang member. Hes like a harvard water polo player. laughing and so he said to them, no but i was in a chess club. laughing and, you know, but he was looking on the bright side and saying that he had a really good mugshot so he was gonna use it on tinder. laughing that is almost the most perfect anecdote start to finish ive ever heard, yeah. Yeah, and then my other former researcher Ashley Parker whos a times trump reporter got assaulted, not assaulted, verbally by a trump person yesterday and who said, you know, take your twisted headlines and shove them somewhere and she tweeted about that. And, you know, i asked trump about this. Because i said reporters are getting pushed around and people at rallies and theres this violence and arent you scared about this . And he paused and he goes, no, i think it adds an extra level of excitement. So, you know, hes missing that empathy gene where he doesnt understand that even though the Trump Campaign may not have been involved in alexs arrest, hes creating an atmosphere. Its an environment. Right. This is the other thing alex said to me when he got out of jail. He said the trump people at this rally, when he was being arrested, were looking at him with such hatred. He had never felt that much hatred. And, you know, i just think hes creating a dangerous atmosphere. Well and a lot of places in this country, at the moment, if the choice was between us as an industry and them, it would be them. We have come to a place now where, i heard a statistic this morning that 9 of the country i think it was in nick kristos column, right. That 9 of the country support or have respect for the media. So, you know. Well, you know, when i covered bush sr. s campaign you know, for his reelection campaign, his slogan was reelect bush, annoy the media. [evan] annoy the media, right. But it was all in fun because basically he really respected the times and in the book i have some of his notes that were really funny about that. Well i want to mention that because you bring the bushes, i mean this book is about trump and clinton but actually the bushes come back to life in this book too again. Well i wrote an original essay about my 30 year relationship with the family. Yeah. And, you know, i have some of his letters in there which, as he himself says, hes no Thomas Jefferson when it comes to letter writing but he his own hilariously unique style and i rereported the whole thing because i wanted to make sure i was right about this oedipal, not edible. [evan] oedipal. Oedipal rex loop de loop that the father and son were in that i think led to the worst Foreign Policy mistake in history. But of course the thing about the bushes now it seems like so long ago, doesnt it . Right. Did you see, i mean, the picture of michelle and w which was at the African American museum of culture, right, magnificent. Yeah which was just an amazing picture. And, you know, my sister volunteered for w and came to the convention to volunteer. And she showed up at my hotel room and she didnt have a hotel, they were all sold out. So, she was holding a sign that said w stands for women and she came and she said could i stay with you . And i said okay you can stay but the sign has to stay in the hall. Outside. laughter and we had lunch with the venerable johnny apple. Right. Who was our chief Political Correspondent and my sister said to him, is w gonna win . And johnny said i think hell win and i think hell be a very popular president. And if it hadnt been for 9 11, who knows . He could of been a bipartisan popular president. When you see that picture with michelle. [evan] right. You know, you think of what could of happened. But unfortunately what happens, and this is why i quoted harry truman in the book saying you never know how a man will accept the responsibility of being president because the white house tends to bring out gremlins and insecurities and then you dont know what historical event is gonna hit. [evan] right. And, you know, mix in with those gremlins and insecurities. And thats why you can really never predict. Well, in fact, that even extends to the current president. You believe that barack obama, in some ways, as president , has shown some of those same gremlins and insecurities right . No, i dont think he has gremlins and insecurities but what happened was in 2008 i might call them that. Yeah well in 2008, i dont think we realized because, it was, you know, he seemed like Luke Skywalker with the force, that really he didnt like politics. [evan] right. So, you know, politics is the art of persuading people to do something they dont want to do. And he really doesnt like that. He doesnt like selling. He had to let bill clinton kind of sell his agenda in 2012 with that Convention Speech and he called him explainer in chief, which is weird cause he had such amazing communication skills. And he doesnt like the fray. So, you know, as one of the clintons hollywood donors said to me, you know, you just really it would be good if, and obama donor, said to me it would be good if you had someone who really liked to do the job description. And this other donor in hollywood said something funny. He said barack obama is like a cold shower and bill clinton is like a warm bath. Even if its insincere, it feels better than a cold shower. Right. laughter the other point you made to me, not today, but you made previously is that barack obama not liking politics is like bill gates not liking computers. Oh yeah neera tanden on democratic activist said that and then James Carville reiterated it to me and said its as though you found out Peyton Manning didnt like football. Its just confusing when you can do it so well why you stay on the mountain top. [evan] right right. And dont wanna mix it up and when you see the American Experience has been playing biographies of president s and Lyndon Johnsons and when you see he would just spend every minute of every day. [evan] yep. You know, doing it and obama just really doesnt like to do that. Hes not into it. No. Hes just not into it. Its so fun to talk to you. Ahh thank you evan. Thank you so much for coming by and good luck with the book. Okay. I just, i want you to explain the rest of the campaign thing so get back to work. Maureen dowd thank you. applause [narrator] wed love to have you join us in the studio. Visit our website at klru. Org overheard to find invitations to interviews, q and as with our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes. My older brother michael said angrily, you know, if there was a hurricane youd blame it on w. And then there was a hurricane. laughing and i blamed it on w. So, you know, i kind of make light in my columns but its personally hard cause if your family are all conservatives theyre angry at you for a lot of years. [narrator] funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by the Alice KlebergReynolds Foundation and hillco partners, a texas Government Affairs consultancy and by klrus producers circle, ensuring local programming that reflects the character and interest of the greater austin, texas community. soft music