Trudeau Trump was asked why he won't permit the secretary of state over his acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney to testify on his behalf I'd like to testify I think you heard him say that but he didn't rule it out down the line when it's there and it will be fair in the Senate I would love to have my pocket I'd love to have met I'd love to have Rick Perry. And any other people that's when I want to testify whether this is a potent fish you know what effect is that search if it moves to the Senate for trial Republicans control the chamber Tamara Keith n.p.r. News London the House Judiciary Committee meanwhile is set to take the lead in the impeachment inquiry into President Trump's dealings with Ukraine N.P.R.'s Winsor Johnson reports the panel will hold its 1st public hearing tomorrow as it decides whether to move ahead with charges against the president as Democrats tried to make the case that child abuse the power of his office to solicit foreign interference in the 2020 Alexion legal scholars will lay out the Constitutional grounds for impeachment Margaret Taylor is a fellow at the Brookings Institution I think it would be a useful way for both members and the American public to be reminded of what the Constitution says with a view toward taking the facts that have been gathered by the Intelligence Committee and others committee and applying those standards to those facts the White House has refused to take part saying at a letter quote a discussion with law professors does not begin to provide the president with any semblance of a fair process Winsor Johnston n.p.r. News Washington the House Intelligence Committee which is how it's only hearings voted tonight along party lines to approve its report on the president a federal appeals court in New York is handing President Trump another defeat the court ruling Congress can demand Trump banking records for investigations into possible foreign influence in u.s. Politics or other misdeeds the panel of the 2nd u.s. Circuit of the. Court of Appeals will link to banks Georgia bank and Capital One should comply with subpoenas from the House Financial Services and Intelligence Committees seeking the records of the court's ruling Congress was acting within its constitutional authority from her personal lawyer says an appeal to the u.s. Supreme Court is under consideration stocks continued their downward slide today the Dow dropped $280.00 points the Nasdaq fell $47.00 points the s. And p. Was down 20 points this is n.p.r. The state of Connecticut says it plans to divest from civilian gun manufacturers as Connecticut Public Radio's than a Sunday look Hari reports it's the latest move in a state that has an active stricter gun policies since the 2012 Newtown massacre state treasurer Shannon wooden says he lost his own cousin to gun violence just months before the mass shooting that killed $26.00 children and educators at Sandy Hook Elementary School so yes this issue is personal to me however as state treasurer gun violence is a matter of significant financial concern which warrants the attention of this office when he manages more than 36000000000 pension investments he says recent court cases involving civilian gun manufacturers make them risky financially so he plans to reallocate 30000000 in pension funds to more stable investments the plan needs approval by the Advisory Board for n.p.r. News I'm Vanessa than I thought it in Hartford the federal government is launching a program from invited daily h.-i the prevention drug for free to people who need it the lack of insurance coverage to pay for it it's part of the trumpet ministrations goal of ending the h.i.b. Epidemic in the u.s. By 2030 taking certain and I age i.v. Drugs dramatically reduces the chance of someone who still healthy will become infected but Health and Human Services secretary Alex A's are supposed to few people are getting the medication one reason is cost there are 38000 new age HIV infections in the u.s. Annually. Girdle futures prices managed to eke out continued gains oil up $0.14 a barrel today to end the session at $5610.00 a barrel in New York I'm Jack Speer n.p.r. News in Washington support for n.p.r. Comes from the little market offering artisan made goods and home decor with a commitment to fair trade a nonprofit founded by women to empower female artists in marginalized communities around the world more at the little market. And the n.e.a. . This is one way I'm Joshua Johnson in Washington education is open doors for many immigrants to build new lives in the u.s. And occasionally it has closed that door as well the visa process for international students can be daunting especially when pursuing graduate degrees the University of Farmington in Michigan marketed itself as a solution to that problem it claimed to offer advanced online stem courses stem science technology engineering and math and international students who hope to extend their student visas applied to Farmington they might not have known that it was a fake storefront and Web site and they almost certainly did not know that Immigration and Customs Enforcement built that store front the goal deport students trying to illicitly extend their stays in the us in the past year more than 250 students were arrested on immigration violations related to Farmington and then he left the u.s. Voluntarily others were deported what is this case say about our immigration enforcement systems and for those students who did not deal with Farmington What challenges did they face. Joining us in studio is to Risa cardinal Brown the director of Immigration and cross border policy at the Bipartisan Policy Center she's also a former Department of Homeland Security official who served in both the George w. Bush and Obama administrations to re So welcome to wanting to be here joining us on the line these Neeraj Laurie coon and immigration and religion reporter for The Detroit Free Press who's been covering the Farmington case Neeraj welcome thanks everyone to share with us from Niraj Can we just get the basics from you what exactly was the University of Farmington Is there anything else to the description of that that's worth mentioning Yes in 2013 undercover agents with ice specifically with their investigative division known as h.s.i. Set up this fake University in Detroit suburb of Farmington Hills they actually how had an office. And they held and they had people posing as university officials the president's name was called on to lead and he would e-mail prospective students. To apply even to the extent of putting the university on the Department of Homeland Security's website officially universities that are legitimate so when prospective students went on the Web site for our use it said this a university was approved to participate in this program so they went to great lengths to give the public perspective students that it's a legitimate university Now we noted that the sting operation did not start under the trumpet ministration So these stings with the preparation for this began nearer to the end of the Obama administration right. And I happen to start in 2015 according to federal prosecutors in January of 2016 they incorporated the university in the state of Michigan according to records according to state records so what kind of students would be applying to Farmington Is there a particular profile or do they fit a particular description in terms of who tried to become part of this fake university when. It was primarily advertised as a stand associated university for attacking computer fields most of the students were from India Telugu speaking from a state in India called our predacious and then even more in previous other other programs and the country master's programs are trying to get degrees so they can either work in America or stay here are some of them didn't want to go back to India so that was a gentle profile the students who applied walk us through what happened to these students in the course of this thing operations so they thought about getting advanced stem degrees science technology engineering and math the c. Farmington listed on the h.s. His website then what happens. Right and then they also check out the credit ation agency which approved University the bat to approve the university and the fact that accreditation agency was working with d.h. Asks What's with Vice unknown to the students of course so when they applied to it and they went in they were both thought that there was going to be classes on site and there are some some cases they have online classes with these programs and some of them they have physical class site on location so some of the students to get suspicious when there weren't any physical classes meeting a specific location and some try to transfer some they transfer out and then to spend the rest happened in January of this year I saw arrested more about $100.00 students found priests $250.00 total in terms of the total number of arrests and before it comes to Teresa we should note there are 2 groups of people who were prosecuted in this case there were the students and then also the recruiters charged criminally and there's sort of separate from the $250.00 students who didn't only face the immigration violations but they faced some criminal charges out of the $87.00 have been sent so far added the last one is going to be sentenced in January and those cases that they say the French attorneys say the 2 were entrapped but that's a little bit different of a case because of those and those situations they were working with the university officials to sort of attract more students but of course they didn't know that the university was fake as well according to the defense attorneys so the recruiters were not working for the h.s. Right they were not undercover agents they were not working for duty as the rice they to work did not know it was a fake operation 3 sick or no brown What kind of immigration violations are at issue here even the ones that may have been committed or the ones that d.h. Has was presumably trying to catch so the status of foreign students in the United States and. Really dependent on their relationship to the school or university and which they are attending So as long as they have requirements about attending schools that are only approved by ice they have to maintain a specific course load or have authorization from v.h.s. To have a lower course load than full time it must include and be mostly in person classes so full online course work is not allowed. And if they depart that university or changed universities without prior authorization they can lose their status so in this case there are 2 different types of immigration violations that might be at play one is the fact that the university they were attending was not in fact a real university so their status being dependent on that university goes away when the university goes away the 2nd is whether or not immigration customs enforcement believed they knew that the university did not offer the right kind of courses and signed up anyway in which case they were charged with perpetrating fraud on the government on their immigration status I think it was part of the argument in terms of why the student should be deported that supposedly they did know Yes Supposedly they did know but the only way for that to challenge is via immigration court so you mention in your opening into the reporting that most of these students accepted what is called voluntary departure so when they are charged with being deportable they the government can offer the ability for them to just leave the country without any further integration consequences that is if the government's discretion and apparently they offer that to many students and they just chose to go home rather than fight it but some are fighting this in immigration court and that is where a possible defense might lie that they did not know or could not have known that this was a fraudulent university particularly if it was noted on the ice website that it had been approved by ice and and or that they've been duped but that's going to be up to an immigration judge to determine whether or not that's grounds for them to stay you know according to a state. That ice sent us ice officials in Detroit sent us there about $250.00 students apprehended on charges related to Farmington about 4 out of 5 were granted voluntary departure and left the us of the remainder about half of them got a final removal order and the remaining students have either filed for some sort of relief or are contesting their removals with the executive office for immigration review we also asked whether or not it considers this thing a form of entrapment which some of the defendants in these cases have argued that it is ice declined to comment on that in its statement back to us now to research part of what it did note is that there are 2 kinds of pieces that are granted to non immigrant students if visas and visas talk about what these visas are and what is involved in getting them and keeping them short So in essence these is for academics students students and who are attending universities colleges degree granting institutions certain other types of professional. Certification can call qualified but it's academic related and these dues are for vocational or technical schools usually And there are a lot fewer of those issued each year my understanding was that this school was reporting to be an f. Granting university has a degree granting University. Let me get to a quick comment before we pause Greda emailed foreign students who overstay their visas Why do they merit some special measure of compassion there are legal Pabst to apply for a visa extension but Farmington was not one of them and the applicants were seeking what Farmington advertised a dodgy way to stay in the u.s. To resume so that the duration of status for a student is as again based on them continuing a course of work or engaging in work authorization that's authorized consequent to their student status something called optional practical training if you have completed your course of study and want to stay in the United States then yes you need to either seek a further course of study at another institution or possibly a work visa with an employer who can sponsor you but it's not necessarily that easy to do in this case. The students were seeking a further course of study and again without knowing the details of any individual cases this university did purport to be a valid university approved by Immigration Customs Enforcement and so if that is the basis in order to qualify there's not a silly reason for them to doubt that it was a legitimate place much more for us to discuss as we continue with Theresa cardinal Brown a former d.h. S official and director of Immigration and cross border policy at the Bipartisan Policy Center and your eyes were a cool who covers immigration for the Detroit Free Press I'm Joshua Johnson and you're listening to one essay from w a n u and n.p.r. . I'm here to show now your community and. I am frustrated that there are already very little guy that seem to get in trouble if there are fraudulent universities go after them when there were several poultry workers. Illegally working in the south they all got in trouble but what about the employer. Like we are working the problem back or. Thanks . Support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from the Alfred p. Sloan Foundation bridging science and the arts I supporting science themed musicals such as Einstein's Dreams running through December 14th at 5959 theaters more Sloan dot org from the William t. Grant foundation supporting research to improve the lives of young people more information is available at w.t. Grant Foundation dot org And from listeners like you who donate to this same p.r. Station. This is one a I'm Joshua Johnson We're discussing the ISIS thing targeting international students in Michigan and what that says about some of the difficulties of being a foreign student in the u.s. With Teresa cardinal Brown a former d.h. Us official now with the Bipartisan Policy Center and the rush worry coo of the Detroit Free Press Scott tweeted I worked with a significant number of international students as a graduate assistant at a prestigious music school the issues I saw my students navigate had more to do with a lack of institutional supports to ensure students' success a significant number of failed in my classes as a result Scott I hear you on that and that might be a good place to bring in another voice in our conversation also with us in studio is September car a director of international student and scholar services at American University in Washington American owns the license to w e n u the station that produces one a set of Welcome to the program thank you thank you put having me with regards to Scott's comment I wonder how you react to that in terms of stepping back from this case in Michigan but just for international students in general having a lack of institutional support to ensure their success does that ring true to you at some of the international students are trying to navigate a system that is highly decentralized and most of them are not used to that so it's up to us is institutions to try to help them about the education system or on campus each might be different than the neighboring campus in the same city so institutional support is part of a month in the students is that since talk about what happens in a you when an international student arrives here I mean a u is a I think we're in d.c. So it's highly international city we have a School of International Studies which is highly prestigious so we get kids from all over the world but talk about what happens when an international student arrives at a you are finally getting the. During their education under way what happens should we take the responsibility as an institution to create immigration documents right to bring those students to the United States to our own institution so that the responsible to continuous through orienting them to the institution because we are teaching them how to have this institution operate out of American classroom education is different maybe then that will fight they are used to it and then have to leave you know you don't maturity as it's it's a lot of fun not that they're trying to navigate so we have orientations that continues throughout the semester through different programs we have also print information is for those workshops continuing throughout the semester he doesn't then think the end of the semester but the totemist there is very very important. To That is the advocacy that we have to do the rest of the campus with our partners and I am very proud to see that institution is very receptive to those you know challenges that they have to adapt to because it is a challenge like you said we are bringing students from all over the world and the challenge is immune from the differences in the education systems mostly I just want to be clear when you mention the immigration documents display may go without saying but just to be clear about that the university and immigration are in communication in terms of the permissions for that student to be in the u.s. So there are documents that come from the university say hey I use the students here for a reason which is where validation for their presence in the u.s. Where you can see how hard is it to get a student visa. That's a very good question for the u.s. Consulate but I can tell you what we need to do is to help the student apply in obtain a student visa the 1st thing 1st be able to rise by d.h. Is to create u.s. Government documents to mediation documents in this case in any foreigner farm these are the that list sent students information about have to apply for a student visa it is u.s. Consulate that ever they are applying there are there are helpful tips that the State Department shares with us with each occasion community almost every year these are the reasons why students are denied and we really make that information available to our students we also ask them to do our bidding certain documentation to do these or interview. And you know most of the time some are students I want people to pay and besides it comes to me so you are generating documents for immigration you know walking the students through the system so that they can get through their education so as an educational as a degree granting institution they really have to lean on the university very very heavily just to survive in the system of the very good they've made off saying that absolutely. A lot of colleges I think are eager to have international students I mean some university systems are said they want more international students because international students pay more than in-state students and they've got books to balance but setting that aside having international students I think is a good thing for university is a feather in the cap even though there's a lot of process and bureaucracy to work through to get them keep them and then graduates or for most major degree granting institutions in the United States having a foreign student population is evidence of the quality of that education that they are able to attract students who are choosing to study outside their country of nationality and could go anywhere in the world and chose to come to not in the United States but to that institution maybe it's because their programs are special they have advanced studies and certain things and of course you know the opportunity comes the United States and possibly for many of these students to stay and work is is an enticement particularly in. The stem fields international students have a lot of innovation and a lot of you know research and study that helps keep the United States at the forefront of a lot of technical and innovation and that's also a feather in the cap for universities when the students are publishing when they are getting patents for their work etc etc It also brings diversity to the student body. Most colleges and universities see themselves as places where young people encounter the world from. 1st time outside of their you know towns where they grew up in their households and seeing a bigger slice of that world than even their state and their neighborhood or their city by having international students there is also part of the university experience and there's a lot of reasons why universities want international students kind of their last point you just made Michel emailed as an economics student at the University of Missouri many of my peers were international students I watched as one of my better friends outworked and outperformed me but was repeatedly turned down for jobs as employers did not want to sponsor an entry level position for him he ended up with a choice of returning to Mexico City or going to graduate school I am now an attorney and appreciate the rule of law but this sting operation seems to be a solution in search of a problem while the real issue is a broken system which makes it difficult for talented people who are already here to stay here could you respond to Michael's comment in terms of the way that folks in the area have reacted to this whether people feel this was a solution in search of a problem or a legitimate solution to a real problem. Yes I think what Mike said what Michael said it resonates with people that I've talked with me feel as the way that this operation was done was unfair according to defense attorneys and others in other words if there is a problem with shady schools Well then shut them down right if you have you have universities that are like a diploma now you know deal with them in your own way but to set up this whole fake university and then more of them and then arrest them I think that's a problem and one thing that was concerning was the way their arrests were done the same we arrested all these people many of them most of whom did not have any criminal records put them in jail you know in some cases they were housed with you know hardened criminals some of them complained of being mistreated according to reports so the way it was done was kind of questionable and I think it kind of concerns that there's a concern that it's going to turn off people from coming to the United States that people will be reluctant to apply for programs because they want what's real like what if they are applying for university and it turns out it's a fake operation you know there's no way for them to know if they see it on the Web site the former home series web site I think it's legitimate So those are the concerns that some have about the ramifications of this on your watch is there any sense of how common these kinds of sting operations are well there was another one done in New Jersey was called the University of North futures the war they had they also created a fake university in that case maybe not to mass arrests it was handled differently they did not round them up in the way they did under this year so that was felt differently in that case there's been a lawsuit filed by some of the students at the fake university they're claiming that they were tricked into this operation and so we'll see how that lawsuit plays out I should note again we did invite ice to participate it declined but sent us a statement about the arrests and about the legal process that is still ongoing part of the statement reads quote. The f. One nonimmigrant students as their designation in the immigration system arrested for immigration violations as part of this operation were not invalid status because they were not unrolled in the full course of study as required by federal regulations the students were initially admitted into the United States to attend a school certified by the student and exchange visitor program but later transferred to the University of Farmington which offered no academic or vocational programs of any kind since the school did not offer courses or confer degrees the enrollees were simply using the f one program as a pay to stay scheme unquote Neeraj is there any sense that the students who were caught up in this dragnet knew that Farmington was fake and unrolled anyway well they didn't I don't think they knew going to defense attorneys that they knew that it was a fake operation created by ice that was something that they were not aware of and I think confused a lot of them when they were arrested that this was a sting operation. Some of them did have some suspicions when they didn't have a physical location but we know that some of the students were asking a university you know what do you have a physical site of your classes and so some of them thinking this but it was enough that they transferred out or tried to transfer but a lot of them it happened pretty quickly you know they may have been rolled and then 2018 and just a few months later they were arrested by I use a date and time to transfer out but it's unclear you know I don't think it's the case that they knew it was created by according to defense attorneys to resort to that point about the diploma mills Judith emailed sorry to disillusion you but individuals do and always have tried to get visas through fake universities those students who want to stay bear responsibility for researching the universities they applied to I'm not a fan of sting operations and to test the anti immigrant actions of this administration but it is legitimate to enforce u.s. Laws about student visas. What about that so recent particularly How may be those laws have been enforced in other ways besides you know this kind of sting operation sure so 2 things understand in the immigration system the burden is almost always on the foreign national to show that they are authorized to stay in the United States so in this case yes the burden is on the individual to know the rules and apply them appropriately and but I think that one of the questions about this particular operation is that it would have been very difficult maybe for them to know that the university was fake primarily because ice went through the trouble of listing them on its own website in order to qualify as an institution that can issue immigration documents the institution has to have a physical location and has to offer courses that are in person classes so by giving it that air of legitimacy by by putting it on its own website it was telling students well if I use a proof that it must be a legitimate place it's another thing to say that it's a diploma mill that is authorizing something that doesn't exist and as I mentioned some of the students were suspicious about that there is a requirement for physical classes in physical classrooms I'm sort of clarify that idea of a diploma mill sure a diploma mill is a term it's not a legal term but it's a term that's that's basically given to places that advertise basically selling diplomas when you don't have to do the work it's not necessarily a legitimate accredited institution it could be a technical school or of occasional school there's been a lot of issues with many of them a for profit schools that have been closed down in recent years even domestically because the degrees are certifications are offering really aren't very good and not quite not as soon valid qualifications and I since ice has also shut down and ejected from the student visa program universities that haven't met the qualifications where the credits ation it Organization for example has. As the accredited them or itself has gone away from them I'd love to get your sense of the responsibility and the fault in this case we've got a number of listeners who asked about that very thing including Grady Here's what Grady left in the inbox My name is Grady I heard on n.p.r. This morning regarding an entrapment case where that Homeland Security with together a fake university and a foreign student apply there in order to stay in the United States longer on their student basis that's a little shaky on both that frankly although the fake university was put together perhaps by hope Lance security they still wanted to stay in the United States under false pretenses. Grady Thanks for calling in just to correct part of what he said it was not 8 foreign students there were 8 recruiter who's who were charged in the scheme there were hundreds of students who are caught up in this at least are about 250 as far as we know but soon and what about this in terms of there potentially being a little bit of fault on both sides of us showed up 1st of all if I recall a chanst do a lot of students to move from one degree to not do it or when you stick to Sion $10.00 that are say you strict timelines a victim of each thing must do that you know moment in this case students probably they're in invalid status indeed or trying to transfer out I don't know the details but it's pretty much allowed by the regulations I did agree that terrorists out there students are ultimately responsible for the limitations letters and I think he consistent message that you give to students. I do you also know that students are not inherently a vehicle for a lot of things that you know venal here that for the usual life beyond your institutions they rely on the government you know cited in the check there if this institution was leased that on the sh teachers site is it has approved the institution I think the students would just trust that information what about the argument from prosecutors that this was a has ice put a paid to stay arrangement that the students knew what they were getting into was there any evidence of that oh well you know there's made the argument that the students should have known it was a very university there wasn't much of it and you know I see their point from their perspective they're trying to crack down on a lot of fraudulent University use and what they call a pay to stay operation so you know that they do have a concern about the sort of shady operations universities that are taking place but I guess in the sense of the students some of the attorneys argue that you know the windows are. I don't think going that something goes wrong and they try to rectify we're still getting into trouble so in some cases you have students were e-mailing the state university saying hey you know where we're the fiscal on Cyclops is going to happen are they going to happen soon and the universe to e-mail them back and these are obviously undercover agents saying oh they're coming or it's coming you know so they didn't know what to do because they keep hearing that it's a legitimate universities on the website but I guess once you know what you are in university it's kind of hard to get out Russell That's the problem that you're kind of stuck in the situation Ross tweeted setting aside the Byzantine legalities of our immigration system how can anyone consider this an ethical way to engage in enforcement good question we'll talk about that when we continue our conversation about what this says in terms of immigration and education in the u.s. Because I'm right and it's you know when I was an international. I had something from Bali I recalled how stressful it lets you figure out how to do the right thing and so I can imagine a lot of the international students looking at the opportunity might. Lead you in that purpose so I can totally see how they were caught up in something big we call and in very unfair to target that in that way. A jellyfish sculpted from golf balls I see draggin made of suction cups on the Oregon coast a local artist is using plastic garbage that washes ashore to raise awareness about ocean pollution I want to reach everybody I want to reach people who might throw something on the beach and not think about it and I want to make them start to think about turning waste into art on the next Morning Edition from n.p.r. News. Well. Support for n.p.r. 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Well continue in a moment after a quick heads up about some morrow's program Robin Crawford has a new memoir on her friendship with Whitney Houston the late pop superstar kept her relationship with Crawford secret all her life Houston's legacy has evolved since she died in 2012 how do you reflect on her legacy now especially in light of Crawford story leave us a voicemail 855-236-1818 we'd also love to hear from you if you interacted with Houston or Crawford directly tell us your story 855-236-1818 or send us an audio file with our Apple one a vox pop We will speak to Robin Crawford and share some of your stories tomorrow on one day. Back now to our conversation with Theresa cardinal Brown Neeraj Warry cool and cinema car story so I wonder if you could respond to this one from Fred who emailed I'm very confused by this seeking a further course of study is a legal way to remain in the country the students did so so far as they knew so how can they possibly be charged with a crime as for ISIS contention that some of the students knew it was a phony university given the extraordinary lengths to which ice went to give it the appearance of legitimacy Ice's argument their rings exceedingly hollow threesome Well 1st thing I would say is that students weren't charged with any crimes violating immigration laws in administrative law violation they were charged with being rich deportable from the United States and then were either deported or are fighting deportation or somewhere allowed to voluntarily leave there was no criminal charges filed against any students and I just want to reiterate that because it gets confusing a lot the only criminal charges far as we know were filed against the recruiters who as I believe are u.s. Entities. But the issue is is I think as he said although the immigration law places the burden on the foreign nationals who maintain their status there is enough about this to say that students probably were very confused about the status of this university it's unclear some of them may have been aware that what they were trying to do was at least shady but again because the university wasn't valid and they were not enrolled in a valid university they did not have valid status that is the issue when you don't have valid status you are required to leave the country one way or the other sort of how hard is it if you're an international student to tell a real accredited school from a fake accredited school like Farmington setting aside like you know Georgetown is a real school but some of the schools that may not have as high a public profile How hard is it to actually know that you're on solid ground it's actually pretty hard to miss this to schools you know. Shares that information with students and or it is very visible on your website and if you look at different institutions you know for the same information on the event sites it's very difficult to find the very same information on different institutions sites so that's why students do rely on their own institution if they are here they do bring to us in the form saying that I've been admitted to this institution can you transfer me thirst question is is this How critical is this you know teachers have proved and we have them trickle that information so they check it themselves they have to take it themselves and they have access to that information so now when we talk about this accreditation center Mike who are we talking about we are talking about are created in the agencies in the United States for example for us it is making States right after the teaching is run so they are decrease our record nice then the chance approval is another one that they must have oh I understand so the accreditation is for the actual degree that it is a legitimate add to the green granting institution of a certain quality which is separate from the immigration certification that they are allowed to comment study at this place yes so this kind of 2 layers of it are you allowed to come to this university at all from another country and then will this university if you are admitted give you a degree that is acceptable for the American workforce josher I would just offer that you would flip that around that an institution must be accredited to be approved by d.h. Us to accept foreign students and if a constitutional loses its accreditation it can lose the ability to accept foreign students from v.h.s. To you emailed I was an international student who studied in Ohio as an f one visa student my experience in education was largely positive but I think most people don't realize how stressful it was to navigate America's complex immigration system this ongoing stress becomes pervasive in everyday life and I often stressed about. Committing minor infractions that would potentially lead to huge consequences i.e. Being deported sent him I see you nodding to that yes I interviewed I mentioned a few doors down longer than the invidious and to students in between it and I used to shimmy ask questions that's the number one thing that comes up that the future of making in the state all the time that for coming back to our office sold a time or a line resources that we have because it is very difficult think things are changing you know immediately actions are not changing that clique if I think guidance is changing and they probably want implications for our students so that's where we do have the responsibility to bring that information to our students and to have the trust that our students that anything that has you know has into teaching for York in the directions thank yous be out here to share that information via Neeraj How is the story affected immigrant communities in Michigan that you cover particularly those who maybe are 1st or 2nd generation Americans they've worked real hard been able to send their children to college and have tried to play by the rules and very very carefully the whole time I can only imagine how they're reacting to this. You know it's calling some concern it's causing a lot of confusion because people who are in these programs are or spiritual one of their university turns out to be fake you know there is a worry that. They may be thrown out of status. In some places there in the American community has raised concerns about it they were in literalist to Hamas official expressing concerns but there has not been any sort of legal action no lawsuit no legal case filed that hasn't gotten as much attention as other cases immigration cases have they might be changed later things have gotten more attention this month one thing I would add about the credit Asian issue what's interesting about this case is that the credit. Reachin agency Well securely working with the undercover operation p.h.s. Of the problem and security and I have them work to oppose that sort of State University is so that raises questions also about these somebodies credit ration agencies are they do they have universities lawsuit is going legitimate there are there actually working for the government so we don't know what's happening with other universities potentially to research is what these accredited should agencies did legal is it legal for an accreditation agency to take part in a law enforcement investigation like this I don't know but about legality I think one thing understands accreditation agencies are their private organizations they're not governmental organizations and is it ethical is probably a different question if you are an accreditation agency and you accredited institution that is later found out to be fraudulent or fake the reputation of that accreditation agency is at stake in every other institution accredited by that organization now is probably thinking there's my association with that accreditation agency cause me problems I think that's where it's going to have issues and other institutions that are working with that accreditation agency would rightly be worried because there's a that now there's a concern that this is that this accreditation agency is willing to you know put its name on what is a fake even in the name of law enforcement when you cannot be accredited You cannot be a credit so it's a university you're kind of you kind of painted into a corner in a way yeah and I think the other thing to understand about this is is you know you mentioned there are different types of institutions in the United States we've seen in the last decade a growth and explosion of online organizations and institutions some are affiliated with major degree granting institutions others are privately owned and for profit that only grant bigger use online and so that leads to further confusion among people who are looking for advanced education just generally and then add to. That if you're a foreign student not familiar with the u.s. System relying on governmental information and information from the institutions that are supposed to be validating all of this to see whether or not it's an appropriate institution to study and cinnamon must be challenging being a university in the middle of all of this emailed I've seen both sides of this issue from my wife who I met while she was on her left because in the stem field at the University of Florida and there's a small business owner trying to apply for a work visa for one of our employees my wife feel strongly that she was able to follow the rules of how to work and study here and so should other people be held to the same standard in trying to apply for a work visa as a small company we were amazed with the flooding of fake and or redundant foreign applications that made it very hard for us to have our employee who had family here as well as lived in the u.s. 5 months out of the year we need to focus on facilitating the legal immigration process to keep those who have waited in line so well yes students are good and they're responsible for the lead in the Creation scientists but it's a joint responsibility for the institutions bringing those students here to the argy choir to educate them cheerfully and the information that they must know in order to state in status to stay in starters that are single conditions to meet to do you know have to be in place and the students are if they are off that well I am not saying that students and. Intentionally violating their status but there are sometimes extraordinary 2nd thoughts there are sometimes you know these are strict if it lines that maybe in case of employment for example they are promised an employment line b. I don't know p.t. But their employment doesn't come to me at the last minute and suddenly distance this is immigration status and the Neeraj Andrea also kind of makes the point that this is part of a much larger immigration challenge that we have in the u.s. That these students are caught up in an issue that is way way way bigger than just them. Correct I mean the broader issue of you know whether we're meeting too many immigrants are those are legitimate issues to be discussed but I think the concern here is how well they went about doing it kind of orange them and tricking them my view a problem with the City University you know shut it down or crack down on it but there is someone making the argument don't go to the extent of Lauren the man and creating this fake operation and tricking them essentially one listener who asked to remain anonymous e-mailed having lived in the United Arab Emirates and worked in Vietnam I can tell you it is very hard to discern a fake organization in a very different language and culture the seal of approval of the on the d.h.s.s. Website makes this shameful I am all for rooting out dishonest people with student visas but this is not the way let's look forward a little bit Neeraj what happens now in this case for the students who are fighting to stay in the u.s. For the recruiters who face criminal charges what are some of the next steps we should keep an eye out for. Well in some of the cases there's going to be heard before an immigration judge the last sentencing of a recruiter's is going to be next month and January in Detroit. One thing I would add is that some of them quote left on what's called a voluntary departure for not being allowed back in the region that's significant is that only departure is supposed to be better than deportation because it allows the immigrant took a potential get back and tonight States but according to a defense attorney I spoke to least 2 cases that he knows of they're not being allowed back in and so it seems like they're being blacklisted even if they had a voluntary departure So that's concerning something they might be perm way excluded from entering the United States back again one thing I would add is a lot of them are from rural backgrounds right they came from farming backgrounds very you know they had hard lives and they were trying to improve themselves and now of course they're in deaths in some cases because they had 2 issues from other universities and you know ice got millions of dollars out of this right because they were paying tuition they were paying you know an average $12000.00 a year to speak university and all of that's money they have lost and went to the u.s. Government. So that it's actually I'm glad you mentioned Iraq that goes right to a question I was just about to ask you for Margaret who e-mailed this kind of sanction the government treasury to quote unquote catch otherwise illegal immigrants is reprehensible with these stories coming to light I want to know exactly what was done with the thousands and thousands of dollars collected for tuition from the prospective students was it used to continue funding questionable ice programs was it turned over to the u.s. Treasury to pay down the national debt so in Iraq this money just went to the u.s. Government the money they spent on tuition for these phony degrees I do not regular paying on average you know $12000.00 a year and you have $600.00 plus students enrolled so if you do the math that comes out to millions of dollars for the 1st government took and from there's I don't know what that money used where that money is going to go I'm assuming it's solar p.h.s. But you know there's been a lawsuit filed challenging that so it's recent this effects many many students although I'm not sure how many students are here on student student visas how do you know how large the population is roughly in the last year about 350000 new student visas were issued that doesn't count the numbers that are already in the United States that's actually a decrease from several years ago we had more than 600000 new student visas we've actually seen a decline in international students in the United States so it's it's still a fair number but it's it's declining Senate did you want to thank you like you had a number of the vote on the most recent bill can go to release it's over 1000000 the international students in the United States yes 3 states correct that there is is this like to produce the decreases in unusual students but students who are on a p.t. Optional practical training do you see a slight increase so to reset what does this mean going forward for international students Bill ask how can anyone trust the list v.h.s. Provides Now how many others listed are fake universities how many will be Teresa what does this mean in a larger. Since going forward for international students who we meet in this country Yeah I mean Napster which is the Association of International educators says that foreign students can join in $28000.00 contributed about 35000000000 dollars to the economy so it's it is a help to United States I think there's a couple things you know there's a saying that trust takes a long time to earn and a 2nd to lose and I think what you're submitter said about you know how can we trust the government agency when they've done this that's it that's an open question I think there are a lot of uphill wins for foreign students coming to the United States right now there is a lot as I mentioned a lot of competition from other parts of the world too to entice students to study there you have some countries that are actively encouraging their students not to study abroad China for example in the United States is making it more difficult for some of them to come to the United States with that in programs and things like that and so I think that over time these kinds of things just make students think again you know the United States is still a destination of choice for millions of foreign students around the world but we no longer can presume that status is untouchable so we said Cardinal Brown the director of Immigration and cross border policy at the Bipartisan Policy Center Teresa thanks for being with us thank you for having me Neeraj Warry kook who covers immigration and religion for The Detroit Free Press Neeraj Thank you. Thanks for going to show and send him a card the director of international student and scholar services at American University said of make you think of him and this conversation was produced by station Brown to learn more about her and the rest of our team go to the one a dot or this program comes to you from w a n u part of American University distributed by n.p.r. I'm Joshua Johnson and this is one essay. The. Support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from the little market offering artisan made goods and home decor with a commitment to fair trade a nonprofit founded by women to empower female artisans in marginalized communities around the world more at the Little Market dot com and from Americans for the Arts committed to transforming America's communities through the arts and arts education supporting the nonprofit arts industry which employs 4600000 people nationwide learn more than Americans for the Arts dot org Whitney Houston met Robin Crawford when they were teenagers in New Jersey their relationship lasted decades until drug addiction took away Crawford's best friend and lover her new memoir looks beyond a well known tragedy with a personal take on the joys of being young and fearless Robin Crawford next time on one egg. Off a day and thank you for listening to 89.3 p.r.g. I got you want your source for n.p.r. News and news that discovery. Support for t.p.r. G. Is brought seen by the blog symphony society for over 50 years performing music from classical to Pops to Broadway while promoting local talent and eating the development of young artists who qualm symphony society. RINGBACK And. Mother and welcome to exploring music this is going to clock on our theme this week invitation to the dance part 2 we're listening to music composed for the stage whether it's for opera or ballet or other dramatic purposes and in today's show we're going to hear 2 ballets of bar talk and one of the fire all 3 pieces composed it up 10 years right around the time of the 1st World War the end of the war I should say. The 1st piece we're going to listen to a part of is the wouldn't Prince and this were coming very highly recommended by some people who are particularly dear to me my daughter and my son and his goes back to the time when they were just little kids I think maybe my daughter was barely 6 years old and son 4 and a half or so the used to get themselves up in sort of ballet costumes Well my daughter were going to put something around her head Maginot a veil and my son was probably going to hang around with his sister they love the ball to dance when old LP I had of this ballet the wooden Prince they didn't know there was by I thought they just love the way it sounded I don't even need to tell you very much of the story are just through the sections which we're going to hear now we'll hear an introduction and then the 1st dance of the princess in the forest then the dance of the trees then we'll hear the dance in which the princes pulls and tugs at the wooden princess and tries to make them dance and the next dance in which she tries to attract the real Prince with her seductive dancing some excerpts from below par talks ballet from the year 917 the wooden prince in this performance I'm called already conducts the London Symphony Orchestra.